NPC Balance Thread - MXO Forum Archive

#35400000072 02/09/2006 16:45:37 NPC Balance Thread

Already I know of a mob that needs more balancing so I figure that we should start up a thread devoted to people's experiences with NPC's and which ones.

Player: bonopi
Tree: Karate Grandmaster
Buffs: Karate GM, Hyper Dodge, Adrenaline Booster, Power Tactic
Level: 50

Hardline: Creston Heights (South Central)
Name: Neighborhood Watch
Level: 48
Weapon: submachineguns

Comments:
Going into battle with 3 Neighborhood Watch at the same time kills me every time. By the time I can kill one of them the other two have hit me with their 2 second timers too many times. I think that the damage is pretty good when fighting one on one with them but when fighting them 3 on 1 their submachineguns go through me too fast because I don't deflect many of the shots X2.
One on one I barely loose any health...

Possible Solution:
When in interlock Ballistic Defense goes up so its harder to get hit from outsiders.
Bring up the submachinegun timers above 2 second which is too fast.

Not really sure on good solutions since one on one is pretty balanced.

#35400000073 02/09/2006 19:43:02 Re: NPC Balance Thread

My rant

#35400000074 02/09/2006 19:54:41 Re: NPC Balance Thread

LOL
I got pwned by the mods:smileytongue:
oops, forgot about the other sections SMILEY

#35400000075 02/10/2006 00:11:54 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Well, they're still working on it. But I'm sure our feedback will help them. I personally haven't faught NPC's much yet, I'm still running around in circles mad about missing Ghost and Seraph. /patheticwhine

#35400000076 02/10/2006 04:18:25 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Ah, a place to do a writeup, thanks bon!

First, my specs:
PBlade - Level 50 Karate Grandmaster/Kung fu Master hybrid.
Buffs - Hyperdodge (levelled to about 25 -ish) and Karate GM buff.

So far, after update 5, I have battled con greys in Baldwin Heights (Mid 30s, all chevrons) and con blues in Creston Heights.

Baldwin Heights
I can hold my own against them, and plough through them relatively easily when it's one on one. Not as easy as i'd imagine it to be, but definitely better than before. As for enemies being around me, then definitely a challenge is presented. Even with Hyperdodge loaded I am riddled with bullets more often than not. I went into battle against 1 with 3 others around me, and I got slowly wasted. Not owned incredibly quickly, but definitely not what i'd expect from con greys.

Creston Heights
Understandably things are going to be difficult here, as it's the hardest area in the game for PvE. My mid levelled Hyper Dodge is hardly adequate here, but it's loaded anyway. I launch myself into battle with one, and as is the setup of Creston Heights, I am picked at from all angles by other Neighbourhood watchers. I am holding my own against the enemy I have in interlock, but it's a bit of back and forth, taking as long as I would expect it to take against a 3 chevroned level 48. However, this doesn't bode well for the fighting centred around me from outside interlock. Every other second I am getting lead poured into me by the surrounding mobs. I am defeated the first two attempts. The 3rd time I try my luck at it I manage to beat the opponent from full health to zero, but my health is too low to attempt any of the others, so I hyperjump away to safety.

1 on 1 is ok it would seem, but something NEEDS to be done about the surrounding opponents.

Solution
bonopis idea is an idea shared by many of us to avoid this calamity of sorts: A moving target is much harder to hit so it would make sense to have some sort of ballistic resistance bonus when entering interlock. I wouldn't expect it to be something fantastically high so that we NEVER get hit, but I wouldn't expect something so small that it makes no difference. Just something that would bring the chance of getting hit up to about 50/50 - That is taking into account enemies level and buffs used at the time, along with native Ballistic resistance et al.

#35400000077 02/10/2006 04:53:21 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Kayda
Level 45 Karate/Kung Fu Master (Karate/Kung Fu Grandmaster Partial)

Mission: End of the Beginning (Zion - Hard)

Orange Con Elite Guards and Lupine Scrappers seem to kill me in roughly three hits, even taking them on as a one-at-a-time basis. Attempts at varying attributes, clothing, attack combinations, etc. doesn't seem to alter this fact by any large degree.

Creston Heights Neighborhood Watch (Con Red)

Amazingly enough, I was able to take on one of these fellows. However, it was very daunting and took upwards of 5 minutes in a teeter-totter fashion of gaining ground on one another. Sadly, he must have called out for his buddies with his dying breathe as soon after his death, three came in. I was able to get one of the reinforcements down to roughly half health before I was torn to shreds by automatic weapon fire.

=============================================================

Thus far, it seems that only the mission opponents are the ones a tad too powerful. It took 4 attempts at "End of the Beginning" on Hard before I was able to kill two Exiles, the third of which somehow vanished, making the mission unable to be completed.

More later.

#35400000078 02/10/2006 08:09:39 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Sadly the consequence atm is that all but 1 on 1 duels will mean getting tied into IL is akin to suicide! Moreover this occurs with level 48npc's with a strictly limited build how on earth would it be with the same number of players with varied builds and genuine strategies.....the effect of levelling isn't anywhere near sufficient as it is currently set, there needs to be a two pronged solution - Increase the amount of damage resistence and dodge/block gained for each level gained AND give a dodge/block bonus for players in IL.

#35400000079 02/10/2006 08:16:40 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Please Tytanya, we know your opinions on the possible/probable increase of the zerg.

They do want some constructive feedback on where they're right and where they're wrong. Stop dragging the same horse into every thread about CR2.0

*edit* Sorry, that sounded harsher than it was intended.

Message Edited by PBlade on 02-10-200608:22 AM

#35400000080 02/10/2006 08:38:13 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I make two clear suggestions to a problem raised in the thread.... if you read again you will actually see one of these was consistent with your own.

I hope I always try and make a constructive point to my posts, but have to confess in certain instances here I feel it is a change of perspective is called for rather than a simple tweak.....it's selfish but I'm not arguing to scrap CR2.0 I am arguing for CR2.0 to work in the kinds of scenario we experience everyday.

#35400000082 02/10/2006 09:56:00 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Funnily enough, PBlade and I tested in the exact same areas, and faced the same consequences.

Con greys, while relatively easy to defeat one-on-one, are still terribly difficult when in groups. As a level 50, I fought level 36 mobs, and even the single-chevron enemies were filling me full of holes. I was able to take out two in a group of four before I had to retreat and heal up. I had lv50 Hyper-Dodge loaded and activated, as well as buffed clothing that added to Ballistic Defense and Resistance, yet I just barely survived the encounter.

I then proceeded to fight groups of con blues in the Creston Heights and Stratford Campus areas, and was subsequently pwned before I could take out the first enemy. The first enemy I fought was a two-chevron con blue (level 4 SMILEY

and he was able to take me down to almost half health in three rounds, one of which he hit me with a Full Auto Redux.

Missions...don't even get me started. A con yellow Blood Drunk (level 50, two-chevron) killed me in two hits (probably because of the bug with Intensify Attacks).

I feel that the latest NPC balance pass made little difference. I hope this isn't the direction the game is going, as it's making an already difficulty PvE environment even more difficult.

#35400000083 02/10/2006 13:54:29 Re: NPC Balance Thread

The direction we're headed in is to keep things approximately the same difficulty as they were before, but I'd say making things easier at low level and a bit harder at high level.

Running through an entire mission on "Hard" at level 50, and barely (if ever) being hit, is actually not "Hard", IMO, but we're not setting out to make things take way longer than they used to.
And I remember the low level gameplay being way too tough when I was a noob... pretty discouraging. We'd definitely like to change that.

Now a question: What kind of resistances do y'all have?

At level 50, it is expected that you'd have 200 points of any sort of resistance. I think if you have 6 pieces of top level (33pts) armored clothing, you'll get to 198. So say you have 160 points of ballistic resistance, your resistance is treated as you being a level 40 player. Then if you're being shot by level 50 mobs, it's as if you're actually being free fired by purples. They're going to get a big bonus to their damage until you get your ballistic resistance up to 200.

And if you can get your resistance up over 200, you'll start mitigating the damage they do to you.

At level 20, the target is 80; anything under and you'll take extra damage. Anything over and you'll start reducing the damage you take.

#35400000084 02/10/2006 14:22:20 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I think part of the problem stems from the fact that mobs, even grays that are 15-25 levels below, are consistently hitting us with their weapons. With a level 50's Ballistic Defense compared to a level 35's Ballistic Accuracy, they seem to be hitting me way too often, even with my Ballistic Defense maxed out, with additional bonuses from enhanced clothing.

If they missed more often, it wouldn't be nearly as much a problem, but it seems that even with maximum Perception or no Perception at all, I get hit every time.

As an example, I used an RSI Reset Hack and put all of my points into Perception (for maximum Ballistic Defense) and into Focus (for maximum Ballistic Resistance). I loaded Hyper-Dodge (at level 50) and activated it, and also wore clothing that together granted a +4% Ballistic Defense bonus and about +200 Ballistic Resistance. Even with that, level 34s were consistently hitting me with ranged attacks, whittling down my health as I fought in Interlock.

Am I doing something wrong?

Message Edited by Symmetric on 02-10-200605:28 PM

#35400000085 02/10/2006 14:36:35 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Symmetric wrote:
I think part of the problem stems from the fact that mobs, even grays that are 15-25 levels below, are consistently hitting us with their weapons. With a level 50's Ballistic Defense compared to a level 35's Ballistic Accuracy, they seem to be hitting me way too often, even with my Ballistic Defense maxed out, with additional bonuses from enhanced clothing.

If they missed more often, it wouldn't be nearly as much a problem, but it seems that even with maximum Perception or no Perception at all, I get hit every time.

As an example, I used an RSI Reset Hack and put all of my points into Perception (for maximum Ballistic Defense) and into Focus (for maximum Ballistic Resistance). I loaded Hyper-Dodge (at level 50) and activated it, and also wore clothing that together granted a +4% Ballistic Defense bonus and about +200 Ballistic Resistance. Even with that, level 34s were consistently hitting me with ranged attacks, whittling down my health as I fought in Interlock.

Am I doing something wrong?
Message Edited by Symmetric on 02-10-200605:28 PM

It might have something to do with the fact that currently both Focus and Perception are giving bonuses to Ballistic Accuracy (at least according to the Attributes and Bonuses screens). Only Focus should give bonuses to Ballistic Accuracy.

#35400000086 02/10/2006 14:40:10 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Nope, you're not doing anything wrong as far as I know... it might just be that we need to tweak some numbers. I think possibly lowering the cap for damage done by lower levels (i.e., making your higher resistance count even more strongly when you're surrounded by greys) might be in order.

[edit] unless there's something like that going on ^^ SMILEY

Also, Oar just found a problem where special abilities weren't hitting as much as they should. Once that comes out in one of the next patches, you should be able to kill the one you're working on a bit faster, plus it will be more fun than watching your specials fail way too much SMILEY

[/edit]

Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-10-200602:42 PM

#35400000087 02/10/2006 14:44:12 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Nope, you're not doing anything wrong as far as I know... it might just be that we need to tweak some numbers. I think possibly lowering the cap for damage done by lower levels (i.e., making your higher resistance count even more strongly when you're surrounded by greys) might be in order.

That would definitely help. My question still remains though...is Ballistic Defense making any sort of difference? Right now, I'm assuming it is somewhat the equivalent of Dodge Ranged - the higher your Ballistic Defense is compared to your opponent's Ballistic Accuracy (RCT?), the better chance you have of dodging their ranged attacks.

The reason I ask is that even with maximum Ballistic Defense plus Hyper-Dodge activated, I appear to be getting shot 100% of the time by NPCs that are twenty levels below me, whereas with the current combat system, I don't have to wear any sort of +Dodge Ranged or +RCT clothing (or use Hyper-Dodge, for that matter), and they will always miss.

I understand that with the new system, lower levels have an increased chance of hitting higher level players, but not on such a consistent basis...

Message Edited by Symmetric on 02-10-200605:52 PM

#35400000088 02/10/2006 15:08:01 Re: NPC Balance Thread

This is probably the biggest thing that will take getting used to in the new CR.

Ballistic defense is pretty much the equivalent of DR, but the way the rolls work now, you won't see the situation you did in the old system, where lower levels couldn't hit you. 100% is way too often, but I suppose level 35s should be hitting a level 50 maybe... half of the time or so? Level 50s should hit level 50s about 66% of the time.

The new system is a lot more about damage and damage resistance, than it is about accuracy and defense.

#35400000089 02/10/2006 15:19:48 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Thank you for the clarification, HCFrog.

I have one more question, if you could answer it:

It was mentioned before that enhanced clothing wouldn't have as much of an impact as it currently does now, but you mentioned earlier in this thread that at level 50, you're expected to have 200 points of damage resistance.

You said with 6 pieces of enhanced clothing (with 33 points of damage resistance each) at level 50 would add up to 198, plus whatever bonus your Grandmaster, etc. buff would provide. Considering we only have 6 slots for enhanced clothing (hat, jacket, shirt, pants, gloves, and shoes - glasses so far do not have enhanced versions, save for one item), does that mean we will become even more dependent on a hodgepodge of mismatched clothing?

Also, the enhanced/armored/shielded clothing tends to lean towards providing more of one or two resistances (such as armored only providing melee/ranged resistance, and shielded providing viral/thrown), compared to all four (melee, ranged, thrown, viral). Even if I were to load up enough enhanced clothing to start decreasing one type of damage, I'm completely open to other types of attacks. On the other hand, if I were to balance my resistances out across the four types, I wouldn't have any of them high enough to get over that "magic 200" mark. Is this intended?

Again, I only ask this because with the current system, I can wear a basic, unbuffed outfit of matching clothes, and still hold my own against con blues and yellows. It seems that with the new system, enhanced clothing will become a necessity.

Message Edited by Symmetric on 02-10-200606:21 PM

Archived image unavailable: fm1500pose.html

#35400000090 02/10/2006 15:59:50 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Good question!

I know one of our other designers is still working on fleshing out all of the enhanced items with ones that are better, but I'm not sure how much better.

Knowing what I know now that I've learned more, I'd say that clothes are primarily going to be important for giving you resistance, with other buffs adding onto that basic purpose. I think the sheer number of shielded and armored enhanced items should allow for a lot of combinations - there are 273 different top level armored shirts, as well as 273 shielded shirts, and 200 top level pants, 547 top level coats... just for male characters. This should allow for more options than currently, where (at least in PvP where you actually have to have your best stuff) there are a very limited number of clothing items that most people would wear.

As for the other buffs that clothing might give, your stats and buffs are going to give you way more influence than any clothes.

It's a very good point about how you could previously go grind NPCs naked and still be able to... wait... naked NPC grinding? Did I just say that? But anyhow, it does look like you won't be able to go out fighting with non-enhanced clothing, at least not multiple mobs.

#35400000091 02/10/2006 18:29:31 Re: NPC Balance Thread

As far as clothing goes, more IS regen please. Currently I run out of IS too fast and am trapped in a boring normal attacks only fight.

#35400000092 02/10/2006 21:25:45 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
The direction we're headed in is to keep things approximately the same difficulty as they were before, but I'd say making things easier at low level and a bit harder at high level.
Running through an entire mission on "Hard" at level 50, and barely (if ever) being hit, is actually not "Hard", IMO, but we're not setting out to make things take way longer than they used to.
And I remember the low level gameplay being way too tough when I was a noob... pretty discouraging. We'd definitely like to change that.
Now a question: What kind of resistances do y'all have?

At level 50, it is expected that you'd have 200 points of any sort of resistance. I think if you have 6 pieces of top level (33pts) armored clothing, you'll get to 198. So say you have 160 points of ballistic resistance, your resistance is treated as you being a level 40 player. Then if you're being shot by level 50 mobs, it's as if you're actually being free fired by purples. They're going to get a big bonus to their damage until you get your ballistic resistance up to 200.

And if you can get your resistance up over 200, you'll start mitigating the damage they do to you.

At level 20, the target is 80; anything under and you'll take extra damage. Anything over and you'll start reducing the damage you take.

I think 200 is pretty high. Special items really need to add more to these, so it's possible to reach these numbers without only wearing armored stuff.

#35400000093 02/11/2006 04:37:55 Re: NPC Balance Thread

What i dont understand is that they said clothing would have a smaller role in the Combat system but now we find it defines whether we win against a mob or lose.

Also i feel the amount of damage we do should be increased as it would speed up combat because at the moment we are there forever in IL which is probably why the mobs kill us, even the low lvl mobs.

#35400000094 02/11/2006 06:27:31 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Good question!

I know one of our other designers is still working on fleshing out all of the enhanced items with ones that are better, but I'm not sure how much better.

Knowing what I know now that I've learned more, I'd say that clothes are primarily going to be important for giving you resistance, with other buffs adding onto that basic purpose. I think the sheer number of shielded and armored enhanced items should allow for a lot of combinations - there are 273 different top level armored shirts, as well as 273 shielded shirts, and 200 top level pants, 547 top level coats... just for male characters. This should allow for more options than currently, where (at least in PvP where you actually have to have your best stuff) there are a very limited number of clothing items that most people would wear.

As for the other buffs that clothing might give, your stats and buffs are going to give you way more influence than any clothes.

It's a very good point about how you could previously go grind NPCs naked and still be able to... wait... naked NPC grinding? Did I just say that? But anyhow, it does look like you won't be able to go out fighting with non-enhanced clothing, at least not multiple mobs.

Indeed it seems the need for the best clothing is at least as serious as atm, while I appreciate providing these buffs over a wider variety of styles is a welcome gesture it is some way from what the community has been asking for. (quite a few suggestion have flowed through the general discusion board)

In an earlier reply you mention aiming to make the relative balance of the game similar to what it is in the current combat system, but later state a level 50 will get hit by a level 35 50% of the time...atm a level 35 simply will not hit a level 50! Equally if I understand correctly a level 50's chance of hitting only increases by 15% over a level 35? These issues if correct will fuel the feeling a lot of players have with regard to themselves being nerfed in effectiveness.

I would suggest that the advantage of evading being hit should be increased per level rather than address the issue of damage resistance, after all you get hit by a bullet you are hurt - in the movies Neo & morpheus learn to dodge bullets not shrug off the effects etc?

#35400000095 02/11/2006 06:30:20 Re: NPC Balance Thread

mitez wrote:
What i dont understand is that they said clothing would have a smaller role in the Combat system but now we find it defines whether we win against a mob or lose.

Agreed. Enhanced items should do just that - enhance our abilities. They shouldn't be a necessity, they should just make things easier should we choose to use them.

Take other MMOs for example. While items with bonuses definitely make things easier and helps your character perform better, an average player can still survive with basic items as well, albeit they may not do as much damage or have as much HP.

The clothing system in MxO is just too cool to be forced into wearing things that don't suit your style. I was hoping that the new combat system would allow for a bit more individuality, but it looks like it's going in the opposite direction. Whereas before you could get away with wearing a completely unbuffed outfit and still survive against grays, greens, blues, and even yellows, now we're going to be expected to wear enhanced/armored/shielded clothing to even be able to survive against a gang of greens. SMILEY

Archived image unavailable: fm1500pose.html

#35400000096 02/11/2006 11:01:10 Re: NPC Balance Thread

There is not enough resistances from skills. As it stands now we have to use all of our equipment to get good resistance and If we have bonuses to those resistances they do not "upgrade" the resistance granted from the clothing.

#35400000097 02/11/2006 11:48:48 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I took my level 50 to creston today with a sniper/rifleman build loaded. And I ran into some trouble with the mobs there. With bufffs and clothing bonuses my BDR came to about 188.

Coming out of a fight with two level 48 mobs, one of them 2 chevrons, I was left with around 100-200 health left. This didn't feel quite right, in my view. I'd expect to get run down but not so much by two blue NPC's (2 levels lower).

It also occured to me, that it was taking a long time to kill each of them. Currently, all of my clothing is pretty much buffing BDR. I thought, perhaps If I were damaging them more each hit, then they would be dead much faster, resulting in much less damage to me SMILEY

I haven't tried this theory out yet, due to not being able to find any clothing that boosted BD. So I'm unsure, wether or not NPC's are still a tad too difficult, or wether a more balanced and varied combination of clothing buffs is key.

If anyone has any BD clothing, please let me know so I can test this.

#35400000098 02/11/2006 15:32:24 Re: NPC Balance Thread

TheTaxidermist wrote:
I took my level 50 to creston today with a sniper/rifleman build loaded. And I ran into some trouble with the mobs there. With bufffs and clothing bonuses my BDR came to about 188.

Coming out of a fight with two level 48 mobs, one of them 2 chevrons, I was left with around 100-200 health left. This didn't feel quite right, in my view. I'd expect to get run down but not so much by two blue NPC's (2 levels lower).

The rifleman has a good damage output but not a tank in my understanding. Try to change your style to fight. Pull one out of the group, or split one off the other and finish him. Should work.

dave

Message Edited by davemusic on 02-12-200612:33 AM

#35400000100 02/11/2006 20:12:08 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Npc's are just plain too powerful.

#35400000101 02/11/2006 23:59:14 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I do not see that many higher level items in the game and even fewer seem to drop on the test server. I brought over maybe 5-10 enhanced items from the live server that are over level 40 and even fewer armored or shielded items. Since I have been testing on the QA I think the highest enhanced item I have found was a level 30 hat. I have one pair of male and female level 50 armored pants and maybe 2 or 3 shirts and this comes from playing for almost a year and decomping pretty much everything I found and could get my hands on. While I enjoy the new system the items seem to be lacking and if what you say about that many being in the game maybe the loot table needs adjusted. I have run a lot of missions on the qa server and hardly ever get anything over level 35 except for weapons and this is with the level 50 hard missions. I know the archive,dungeon,collector and box items aren't in the qa yet but how are those who do not have them supposed to get them if they have so few options. The highest gloves I have is 20. The best glasses is the level 45 program launcher and the only enhanced glasses I have besides that is level 25. The highest hat I have is that level 30 one I found on the qa server. They all are lacking but those 3 by far the worst.

#35400000102 02/12/2006 00:10:29 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Tytanya_MxO wrote:
In an earlier reply you mention aiming to make the relative balance of the game similar to what it is in the current combat system, but later state a level 50 will get hit by a level 35 50% of the time...atm a level 35 simply will not hit a level 50! Equally if I understand correctly a level 50's chance of hitting only increases by 15% over a level 35? These issues if correct will fuel the feeling a lot of players have with regard to themselves being nerfed in effectiveness.

To clarify: by the balance being the same, I mean you'll be able to have about the same outcome from the same kind of fight as you did before. It may look different while it's happening - the amount you're hit, etc. - but you'll be able to take on about the same kind of fight as before, with the same outcome.

#35400000104 02/12/2006 15:41:32 Re: NPC Balance Thread

By that logic as long as we can still win the fight then everything is balanced. I can fight 5 level 48s and win every fight but ill have to hyperjump away and heal after every fight. I dont see that as balance. It makes fighting tedious and boring. With the old system is was a rush taking on 10 npcs 5+ levels higher than you. With this new system that will never happen.

#35400000107 02/13/2006 00:31:05 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Renesis13B wrote:
By that logic as long as we can still win the fight then everything is balanced. I can fight 5 level 48s and win every fight but ill have to hyperjump away and heal after every fight. I dont see that as balance. It makes fighting tedious and boring. With the old system is was a rush taking on 10 npcs 5+ levels higher than you. With this new system that will never happen.

Perhaps I should be clearer. By the same outcome, I mean you won't have to hyperjump away and heal between interlocking each opponent. You should be able to take on about the same number of enemies, same level, with about the same amount of difficulty as you could before. Please note, our PvE balance is not yet complete, so the balance you're seeing on the test server right now is not our final target.

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

#35400000108 02/13/2006 01:18:04 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

Yes we could.I've cleaned the last Pandora's box mission ( the one with a lot of simulacra, where you must kill the Antideluvian ) 2 times. with force multiplier with max deflection and a decent amount of dodge ranged clothing, and with aikido gm with max deflection and dodge and a bunch of antibiotics. It took as much as the whole mission time though; the first times i did the mission it just timed out before i killed all the sims.

Anyway it was just unbalanced! Yes I felt powerful, but hey, I could see by myself that there was something terribly wrong with soloing that mission. It's the way of the old combat. If you have high tactics, you own them even if you do 1 dmg, if you have low tactic you lose an there is nothing you can do. If you have enough deflection you deflect them 19 over 20.if you have enough dodge there is no way for them to hit you.

#35400000109 02/13/2006 06:45:05 Re: NPC Balance Thread

errata corrige.
I soloed that mission with duelist not with aikido. That was because in that way I could keep my target stunned permanently, I had an additional +5 rct from my armor piercing Lancet Pistol, the squad leader shirt gave me rct and dodge ranged, and i was wearing that +5 mct +10 dodge pants.oh I was also wearing the +10 dodge ranged +20 viral resistence coat.

Anyway i think that we should get half of our expected resistence from awakened. (100 at level 50), and that armored clothing should only be only on 3 or four kind of clothes, instead of every kind. Geez i've seen ranged and melee absorbing program launchers. If we get half our resistences from awakened we will not need to wear +36 melee absorbing on every clothing piece just to get the amount we are supposed to have to absorb at least something.

Message Edited by Fade2blacK on 02-13-200606:52 AM

#35400000110 02/13/2006 06:48:51 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:

Renesis13B wrote:
By that logic as long as we can still win the fight then everything is balanced. I can fight 5 level 48s and win every fight but ill have to hyperjump away and heal after every fight. I dont see that as balance. It makes fighting tedious and boring. With the old system is was a rush taking on 10 npcs 5+ levels higher than you. With this new system that will never happen.

Perhaps I should be clearer. By the same outcome, I mean you won't have to hyperjump away and heal between interlocking each opponent. You should be able to take on about the same number of enemies, same level, with about the same amount of difficulty as you could before. Please note, our PvE balance is not yet complete, so the balance you're seeing on the test server right now is not our final target.

I have to ask... you're not saying you could solo 10 purple cons and win before?

Yep, easily. I've soloed Box 3, Soloed the Box 4 missions, and with Renesis' help up there we killed half of Box 4, just the two of us. (Force Multiplier/Upgrade Master is very powerful)

#35400000111 02/13/2006 07:58:09 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I certainly wouldn't expect its reasonable to be able to challenge 10 purples in a combat system, the FM tree was heavily overpowered and has been heavily overused by players to capitalise on deficiencies in NPC ai.

Referring back to the original manual it suggests we should be able to handle a couple of npc or players our own level with a bit of strategy/skill, we should be able to handle a group of 3or4 a level below us and possibly 5/6 a level below that - currently 5/6 npc's or players 20+levels below would annihilate a level 50 with any of the major builds and that is a real concern.....i would suggest a reasonable balance should ensure anyone more than 6 levels below you should be zero threat regardless of their number...

Certainly I favor resistances being added at least inpart to awakened (the value/effect of levelling feels significantly less under current CR2.0 and that has consequences to the incentive to level).

#35400000112 02/13/2006 11:54:17 Re: NPC Balance Thread

As everyone has mentioned it was possible to take on those high levels solo or with a team of 2 with the right builds. The hardest part was blocking the hacks. If one landed you had to run to a safe spot but the free fire wasnt bad with all the dr clothing and ct buffs.

Since our teams are limited to only 6 people I cant imagine trying to take on those pbox 4 missions right now with the current patch. With the amount of free fire we are getting hit with now it doesnt matter if its 10 damage or 500 a full team wouldnt last long. Has anybody actually tried doing the pbox missions yet?

#35400000113 02/13/2006 21:00:37 Re: NPC Balance Thread

On the first day QA was fully stabilized, myself and about 12-15 other level 50 Vectorians attempted to do a PBox 4. We got slaughtered repeatedly. Each shot from the angels did 1000+ damage. The way their AI is, they all concentrate fire on the same close target, then move onto the next. No one can live through 10+ simultanious shots doing 1000+ damage a piece.

#35400000114 02/13/2006 23:24:45 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are SMILEY

) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff SMILEY

Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

#35400000115 02/13/2006 23:35:07 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Frog, you are teh pwn3r. SMILEY

Sounds awesome, and can't wait to see it on the EP Server. Thanks Frog!

#35400000116 02/14/2006 00:20:13 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Well I know you are talking about the NPCs actually coming OUT OF the box. But here's another example. I did the ver first mission of Arc 1 solo the other day. The one in International with all the lvl 35 security guards that all used to pull you into multi interlock which of course they now can't anymore.

Maybe this IS what you guys are shooting for. But I don't feel that as a lvl 50 against 3 lvl 35 security guards I should have to pop Health pills. Cause then that makes me think what happens if I ever encounter 3 lvl 50 NPCs in one of my missions. But maybe you guys want to completely discourage solo missioning - I don't know.

I was a SMG Spec./Kung Fu mix and my free fire did about 170 damage to the NPCs - when they hit me with their free fire it took about 140 from me - that's only 30 pts of damage less for a 15 lvl difference between me and the NPCs.

And of course there's 3 of them - with their 2 to 5 second timers and they hit me about every other shot. So I lose about 300-400 health every couple of seconds.... :-/

Message Edited by Miggesch on 02-14-200609:29 AM

#35400000118 02/14/2006 01:59:01 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Well that sounds.....very good!

I look forward to it.

#35400000120 02/14/2006 04:54:07 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Thank you, HCFrog!

/bow

Archived image unavailable: fm1500pose.html

#35400000121 02/14/2006 05:52:28 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I enjoy the pvp, and I do see the difference in fighting with skill in stead of brawn. But the balencing of the npc's need alot more work. I am a leval 15, and actually beat a leval 18 in a duel. When it comes to the amount of time it takes to fight an npc on the test server compared to the live server. I would have to say that it is doubled. when I go and fight like 8 blue npc's. when I am finished killing the last one there is only two left around to loot because it take to long.

It is almost like you should keep the npc's at the same balence as on the live server. Its almost like the higher levals are easier then the lower leval npc's(meanin the difference between green and yellow.).

I think it would be less complicated in our part while in combat for you to have the abilities to stay at what skill you are useing (such as kung fu or aikido or karate) instead of changeing to self defence and then haveing to change back to your skill. Yes the way you have it now is more proper, but it is more a big difference in combat. me being a level 15, and I don't have any special abilities yet for aikido but it is between night and day when i am fighting.

You all are on the right path but as i see it you still have alot of work to do when it come to the balenceing, so take your time and don't rush this implement to fast or it will hurt more then help. I have heard alot of complaints about the new CR2.0.

Myself, think it will be a good implement after it is adjusted ALOT. Keep up the good work!!!!

FINALTOM

#35400000122 02/14/2006 06:54:30 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Very glad to see this is getting addressed, it is responsible for putting a lot of players off even before they attempt to use the new system fully. I am concerned however at an approach which, at least in the given example, seems to be nerfing the NPC's rather than buffing the player, this again indicates we are less effective than we have been and an NPC specific balance leaves pvp up in the air...or am i misinterpreting that?

Delighted by the shift of emphasis (hopefully) from the dependence of clothing buffs, making the levels of awakened have an increased effect is a very positive move imo. Along with our devastating effectiveness as fighters we also wish to retain that devastating element of style SMILEY

#35400000123 02/14/2006 08:18:42 Re: NPC Balance Thread

I think you are misinterpeting it Tytanya, but a common mistake.

Under the new revision we have not been nerfed, the NPCs have been buffed to hell due to the DPS system.

For example, as HCFrog pointed out, a boss with +750 melee under the old system, would have +750 DPS, which is of course, insane.

This is happening throughout the NPCS, which is why we lose so easily. So as you see, we don't lose, they win :smileytongue:

#35400000124 02/14/2006 09:50:46 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Glad to hear this, It was something that had me worried.

#35400000125 02/14/2006 10:38:30 Re: NPC Balance Thread

PBlade wrote:
I think you are misinterpeting it Tytanya, but a common mistake.

Under the new revision we have not been nerfed, the NPCs have been buffed to hell due to the DPS system.

For example, as HCFrog pointed out, a boss with +750 melee under the old system, would have +750 DPS, which is of course, insane.

This is happening throughout the NPCS, which is why we lose so easily. So as you see, we don't lose, they win :smileytongue:

That's also why Proxy Master is so strong now. I've had my level 50 proxy do over 1000 damage in one Melee IL attack when it uses Hyper Strength.

#35400000126 02/14/2006 10:56:50 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:
Yeah, the Pandora's Box NPCs haven't been totally balanced, they're definitely not ready for primetime yet. Although they have been balanced more than what you saw - the problem was, to make them challenging enough under the old system, we had to add a ton of damage to their output. I think the main boss has like +750 melee, +500 ranged or something like that. Under the new system, that gets translated into 750 DPS... yikes...

Oh, and I thought many of you might like to hear that we spent today reworking the way resistances work. No more "magic 200" number.

Instead, your level will provide you most of the resistance you need. A level 50 player with 200 resistance from their clothing will now, instead of just having just met their target, will actually be into the bonus zone and be mitigating some amount of damage, around 125ish (for a level 50) will get you taking normal damage, while a player running around buck naked will take about a third more damage than default... not so much more that you can't beat up on some easier enemies without armored clothing.

This should hopefully allow for some cool outfits of clothing, where you can (for example) focus on resisting viral damage while still having a pretty good defense against ballistic damage at the same time. It will hopefully also lose the feeling of you struggling to create a wardrobe with enough resistances, and make it more like you can kick butt on your own but these things will help you elevate the butt kicking to a higher level.

The system should be implemented pretty soon... I'll let you know when it's ready to look at.

Other news, I checked through the database and looked at how many versions of clothing have armored and shielded versions. It turns out that at least 95% of them do. So for any shirt you want to wear, there's a 95% chance that there is also a +5%, +15%, +22%, +20%, +33%, +36% version of it out there (or whatever those breakdowns are ) My next step is to check through the loot tables (what fun) to make sure they're all actually dropping.

So anyhow... we're doing what we can to restore fashion to its rightful place in the Matrix while still making it worthwhile to collect good stuff
Message Edited by HCFrog on 02-13-200611:25 PM

Very Very Good!

This is what I wanted to hear! That way we can make sweet outfits and not be underpowered because of it and on top of it we will have the extra fun of trying to loot one.

#35400000127 02/14/2006 12:15:04 Re: NPC Balance Thread

Tytanya_MxO wrote:

I am concerned however at an approach which, at least in the given example, seems to be nerfing the NPC's rather than buffing the player, this again indicates we are less effective than we have been and an NPC specific balance leaves pvp up in the air...or am i misinterpreting that?

Actually, what happened is that, in the process of making CR2, the team found some long-existing (unknown) bugs with NPCs. These were core to the way that the AI worked, the way their abilities were set up, etc. When we fixed those bugs, all of a sudden the NPCs are doing way more damage, taking way less damage, hitting far more often, etc. Imagine in PvP trying to take on 3 enemies your own level... you'd have no chance unless those players were really clueless. Now imagine all the NPCs operating at a level somewhat above a clueless player, but below a good player, and you've got the pre-balance CR2 NPCs that you've all been enjoying for the last little bit. You could take on one, but two would kick your butt.

So now we really do have to balance them back down to a more acceptable level so you can still carve through gangs standing around outside.

But we also have more control now that everything's working as it should. The difference between a boss and a weakling is going to be more pronounced. It should also be more balanced across all levels, with the beginning levels becoming way easier than they used to be, and end levels being a bit more challenging.

All this control also means something potentially very, very cool... crazy boss encounters. Say, a single level 55 NPC, set so that it's as challenging as an entire wave from Pandora's Box 4. That's something we never could do under the old system.

#35400000128 02/14/2006 12:23:35 Re: NPC Balance Thread

HCFrog wrote:

Say, a single level 55 NPC, set so that it's as challenging as an entire wave from Pandora's Box 4. That's something we never could do under the old system.

WOW, sweet.