[8.1.1] Your purpose as operatives of the System has not changed - Syntax - 7/16/07

Operatives,

I have seen the question of Zion's motive behind their construction of a new base raised many times. While some appear to obtain enjoyment from speculation upon this topic, the question is essentially irrelevant to our own purpose, which is the protection of the simulation and those reliant upon it. Zion's heavily armed and fortified base presents a direct and inherent threat to the lives of those within the System, and operations will continue as necessary until this threat is removed.

Efficiently,

Agent Gray

((That was one of the best events ever - it wasn't what was said, but what specifcally *wasn't* said. Also some rare arguments between the Machinists was particularly interesting. Not every day I get my loyalty questioned. Good times. The parallels with the *real* world are awesome. I like the way the story's headed. 

Edit: Darn you smiley face!

))

Agent Gray: Agent Gray is taking necessary security precautions.

.......

This never undermined the Truce.

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

MotorZ wrote:

Agent Gray: Agent Gray is taking necessary security precautions.

.......

((

The follow up to that was classic:

Mon Jul 16 20:59:09 2007 [Area] {5}Agent Gray: Agent Gray is taking necessary security precautions.

Mon Jul 16 20:59:23 2007 [Area] ShadowReapr: ShadowReapr doesn't like thirdperson talk.

))

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. 

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. 

Illyria

Paid, being the key word there.

I was speaking of the Cypherites.

/Target Agent Gray

Screw you, old man!

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. 

Illyria

Paid, being the key word there.

I was speaking of the Cypherites.

/Target Agent Gray

Screw you, old man!

Good to see Agent Gray getting the machines strings attached on many operatives, I'm sure he will pull at them as he need things doing. I wonder what else they have the Cypherites doing for them.

The Machines have spun lies to everyone for their goals, you think they are telling YOU everything?

((That was a really fun q and a session, probably the best I've ever been to. Really enjoyed it.

))

It appears Agent Gray is unable to see past his current function. Understandable, though unfortunate.

Negoiations will have to find a way to higher channels.

Also, to the Machinists, remember you as human beings still retain free will. You can choose to look past your narrow minded orders and see the truth of Zion's stance. You yourselves could be a vital link in helping further attempts at peace. Something we want just as much as you.

Every day this War continues is another day that both our races, man and machine, regress back into the hellish state that spawned The Matrix in the first place. This isn't the way forward, it is the way to damnation.

I have seen the question of Zion's motive behind their construction of a new base raised many times. While some appear to obtain enjoyment from speculation upon this topic, the question is essentially irrelevant to our own purpose, which is the protection of the simulation and those reliant upon it. Zion's heavily armed and fortified base presents a direct and inherent threat to the lives of those within the System, and operations will continue as necessary until this threat is removed.

Efficiently,

Agent Gray

So only by destroying New Zion this war will come to a end. We do not want this war, but the machines want it and maybe that's why we do all we can to protect ourself before it was to late!

Fascinating and highly informative, machine dialogue is notoriously precise..... 

Agent Gray: Action against hostile forces is being taken in your world, yes.

The distinction is written in the minds of the Machines.

Agent Gray: You are here to protect the simulation and those who rely upon it for survival.

The order of these things is sooo very important 

Agent Gray: your continued existance is not contingent upon that of Zion

My my how considerate your EXISTANCE is not contingent, but your use without is nil of course so the efficient machines will soon make the connection.

Agent Gray: In the past, the city was repopulated following a reset of the simulation. A vital factor contributing to this reset no longer exists. Therefore the old system of re-establishing the city of Zion is no longer valid and may not be necessary.

Translation: Thanks to our work with Cryptos we can now overwrite anyone who falls out of line, no need for awakenings no need for redpills and therefore no need for any facility that can actually house a reasonable number of humans....

Agent Gray: We currently have an agreement with the Cypherites under which they are allowed to continue operating under their own direction.

Translation: We wont work with an organisation that is directly and blatantly functioning against the agreed truce, well except the Cyphs of course who have been doing just that for the last few years and it happens to suit us.....oh btw did I mention we actually created the cypherite organisation and used it to manipulate and mislead even our own operatives.

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Fascinating and highly informative, machine dialogue is notoriously precise..... 

Agent Gray: Action against hostile forces is being taken in your world, yes.

The distinction is written in the minds of the Machines.

Agent Gray: You are here to protect the simulation and those who rely upon it for survival.

The order of these things is sooo very important 

Agent Gray: your continued existance is not contingent upon that of Zion

My my how considerate your EXISTANCE is not contingent, but your use without is nil of course so the efficient machines will soon make the connection.

Agent Gray: In the past, the city was repopulated following a reset of the simulation. A vital factor contributing to this reset no longer exists. Therefore the old system of re-establishing the city of Zion is no longer valid and may not be necessary.

Translation: Thanks to our work with Cryptos we can now overwrite anyone who falls out of line, no need for awakenings no need for redpills and therefore no need for any facility that can actually house a reasonable number of humans....

Agent Gray: We currently have an agreement with the Cypherites under which they are allowed to continue operating under their own direction.

Translation: We wont work with an organisation that is directly and blatantly functioning against the agreed truce, well except the Cyphs of course who have been doing just that for the last few years and it happens to suit us.....oh btw did I mention we actually created the cypherite organisation and used it to manipulate and mislead even our own operatives.

ThHidden01 wrote:

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Agent Gray said that the presence of an armed force with a history of violence against the simulation is a clear and present threat, and will be dealt with as such.

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system.TH

So The Machines believe that after everything we have learned, after years of abiding by the truce, after many of us have devoted our entire lives to defending the way to lasting peace that humanity could not possibly have changed?

ThHidden01 wrote:

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Agent Gray said that the presence of an armed force with a history of violence against the simulation is a clear and present threat, and will be dealt with as such.

Vogt wrote:

ThHidden01 wrote:

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Agent Gray said that the presence of an armed force with a history of violence against the simulation is a clear and present threat, and will be dealt with as such.

We have always been here Vogt, yet now we are not in a certain point you want us in. Like animals you want us herded into a pen.

TH

Zion has a history of violence toward the Machines even before the EPN came to be, and the current situation indicates that they have not changed. If they had, New Zion if really needed for the population, would not have such defences against the Machines and it would not have been kept a secret.

While the truce was in effect, those who entered the system, abode by the rules of the system and those in the real who did not attack the Machines were left in relative peace. Mistrust still lingered on each side, true but as long as everyone kept to the agreement between Zion and the Machines there was no violence, in fact there were times when we did border on cooperation. Unfortunately Zion did not keep to the agreement as they felt a need to protect themselves against an ill perceived threat which now, ironically, by doing so has turned that threat into reality.

We as Machinists fight to build the bridge between Humanity and Machine, that is Machines and the Humans in the pods. We would have welcomed Zion, as fellow humans, into this peace, and we still would.

By violating the truce you have endangered Zion's future of peace, but only Zion's. I still feel that peace can be brokered between Mankind, who survive in the Matrix, who depend on it, and Machines who depend on Mankind in the Matrix.

Fascinating and highly informative, machine dialogue is notoriously precise..... 

Agent Gray: Action against hostile forces is being taken in your world, yes.

The distinction is written in the minds of the Machines.

Agent Gray: You are here to protect the simulation and those who rely upon it for survival.

The order of these things is sooo very important 

Agent Gray: your continued existance is not contingent upon that of Zion

My my how considerate your EXISTANCE is not contingent, but your use without is nil of course so the efficient machines will soon make the connection.

Agent Gray: In the past, the city was repopulated following a reset of the simulation. A vital factor contributing to this reset no longer exists. Therefore the old system of re-establishing the city of Zion is no longer valid and may not be necessary.

Translation: Thanks to our work with Cryptos we can now overwrite anyone who falls out of line, no need for awakenings no need for redpills and therefore no need for any facility that can actually house a reasonable number of humans....

Agent Gray: We currently have an agreement with the Cypherites under which they are allowed to continue operating under their own direction.

Translation: We wont work with an organisation that is directly and blatantly functioning against the agreed truce, well except the Cyphs of course who have been doing just that for the last few years and it happens to suit us.....oh btw did I mention we actually created the cypherite organisation and used it to manipulate and mislead even our own operatives.

ThHidden01 wrote:

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Agent Gray said that the presence of an armed force with a history of violence against the simulation is a clear and present threat, and will be dealt with as such.

So in other words, what you're saying is they assumed it was for military purposes and decided to jump to conclusions.

My, how humanly...racist of the Machines!

Vogt wrote: o

ThHidden01 wrote:

How is New Zion a threat to the system exactly? It has done nothing hostile, or provoked you, neither has it endangered the system. I hope the machine operatives see that this war is a simple act of jealousy.

TH

Agent Gray said that the presence of an armed force with a history of violence against the simulation is a clear and present threat, and will be dealt with as such.

So in other words, what you're saying is they assumed it was for military purposes and decided to jump to conclusions.

My, how humanly...racist of the Machines!

Racist? If they were racist Machinists would be getting the short stick too, we are Human too but we are not being singled out by the Machines in fact we receive their respect, they see us as humans who they can cooperate with.

Humans are still warlike and have shown no sign of evolving past that. The presence of a fortified base seen as having large amounts of immobile and mobile arms being transported inside and placed outside the entrance, can only be seen as defending against an enemy, but in order for you to need to defend yourselves in such a way, you have to provoke the opposition into attacking. This is why the Architect called off the truce, to prevent an initial attack on the Machines, one that, knowing Mankind's ability to create more and more destructive weaponry, could be devastating to Machine life.

Alright, I'll rephrase the term...judgmental 

But let's look at this rationally. Over the past few months, there have been increasing threats from the General both in and out of the Matrix and he's still out there despite the Machines efforts. There have also been increasing attacks from the Cypherites. For example, sending a hovercraft on autopilot, essentially turning it into a giant torpedo, and sending it towards Zion.

If Zion does not have the ability to be secure, or the capacity to change enough to be secure, then it's essential to create a place that is safe. It is safe from impending rogue sentinels, and it's safe from any unidentified, guided-missle-hovercraft that may be sent it's way.

I'm not saying that may be the whole reason, because we haven't been told everything, Hell, most of us found out about the same time every else did. There could be other reasons, but from everything they told me, it is meant as a defensive fortress. If we were going to be offensive, don't you think we would come up with something a little more mobile?

Neoteny wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. 

Illyria

Paid, being the key word there.

I was speaking of the Cypherites.

You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all?
Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed?
If you think that you are more naive then I thought possible.

Yup. And here's why.

EPN was outside the Truce. And I defy you to find a link between Zion and EPN prior to the end of the Truce. We disowned them. We made it a point to distance ourselves from them so that the Truce might be upheld. Good lot of use that was, eh? If anything, we just shot ourselves in the foot by doing such at that point.

And as far as I remember, the Truce had two conditions:

Man and Machine in the Real would not fight.
Zion would be permitted to awaken the one percent of bluepills who reject the simulation.

Now, recall this, Zion and EPN were distant. Quite distant. The most we'd work together would be that we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information we never really asked for (i.e. the 500,000 Sentinels). The Machines not only helped create the Cypherite organization and lead it through a program for over a year, but continued funding it when said program went defunct.

The Machines guided and paid Cypherites to break rule one by having them hijack our crews and kill the personnel onboard. They guided and paid Cypherites to break rule two by having them continue to push the blue pill and obstruct and prevent awakenings.

EPN acted on their own to present the choice to that same one percent, while some radicals pushed red pills, or attempted to go beyond that one percent. However, I stress that these are radicals, and we may have heard of such a thing happening once or twice. But again, they were acting on their own, because at that time there was no link between Zion and EPN. And as far as I recall, they never actively hunted Machines in the real in an attempt to terminate them.

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

Alright, I'll rephrase the term...judgmental

this all goes back to my thesis on the War ((check it out on the Vector NR Boards))

Too much bad blood on both sides, it's time we let it all out

And Croesus, what happens if, hypothetically speaking, the building of the New City had nothing to do with the Machines at all in one way or the other? Then it's the Machines who started the war, and due to bad judgment.

All I'm saying is, the whole thing went to Hell just a little too quickly

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce.  They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. 

Insanity.  Pure, self-destructive insanity.

Illyria

Croesus wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

You want to know what undermined the Truce? Paid sabotage, murder, and spying, all with the intent to both destroy Zion and its inhabitants, and prevent awakenings.

I don't think the original intent was to destroy Zion and prevent awakenings...if no truce violations had been discovered, I doubt either of these would have resulted. 

Illyria

Paid, being the key word there.

I was speaking of the Cypherites.

You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all?
Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed?
If you think that you are more naive then I thought possible.

Yup. And here's why.

EPN was outside the Truce. And I defy you to find a link between Zion and EPN prior to the end of the Truce. We disowned them. We made it a point to distance ourselves from them so that the Truce might be upheld. Good lot of use that was, eh? If anything, we just shot ourselves in the foot by doing such at that point.

And as far as I remember, the Truce had two conditions:

Man and Machine in the Real would not fight.
Zion would be permitted to awaken the one percent of bluepills who reject the simulation.

Now, recall this, Zion and EPN were distant. Quite distant. The most we'd work together would be that we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information we never really asked for (i.e. the 500,000 Sentinels). The Machines not only helped create the Cypherite organization and lead it through a program for over a year, but continued funding it when said program went defunct.

The Machines guided and paid Cypherites to break rule one by having them hijack our crews and kill the personnel onboard. They guided and paid Cypherites to break rule two by having them continue to push the blue pill and obstruct and prevent awakenings.

EPN acted on their own to present the choice to that same one percent, while some radicals pushed red pills, or attempted to go beyond that one percent. However, I stress that these are radicals, and we may have heard of such a thing happening once or twice. But again, they were acting on their own, because at that time there was no link between Zion and EPN. And as far as I recall, they never actively hunted Machines in the real in an attempt to terminate them.

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

You evade the first point; You expect us to believe that Zion did not engage in sabotage, murder and spying of the Machines at all?

I was talking about Zion not EPN

You have also answered my second point; Are you expecting us to believe that any information obtained by the EPN and passed to Zion was dismissed?

You yourself said 'we'd give them the name of a hovercraft signal, or they'd give us information' so information gained was passed...

So if the truce was undermined by sabotage, murder and spying, then we are all to blame, Zion and the Machines.

Neoteny wrote:

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce.  They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. 

Insanity.  Pure, self-destructive insanity.

Illyria