[8.1.1] Your purpose as operatives of the System has not changed - Syntax - 7/16/07

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce.  They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. 

Insanity.  Pure, self-destructive insanity.

Illyria

The Machine knew that trying to make a couple of Zion's captains (Cryptos and Toorima) into puppets to control the population that rejects the Matrix, not to mention sabotaging and committing acts of terrorism against Zion is in direct violation of the truce.

The Oracle: What about the others?
The Architect: What others?
The Oracle: The ones that want out...
The Architect: Obviously they will be freed.

It willingly performed an act that it *knew* would cause the truce to break.

Insanity, I agree. Manipulative, underhanded insanity.

Zion's hands aren't as clean as they'd like everyone to think.

I see, so you are saying that Zion violated the truce because the Machines had? But plans for your 'New Zion' were made before the Machines plans for Cryptos.

The Machine knew that trying to make a couple of Zion's captains (Cryptos and Toorima) into puppets to control the population that rejects the Matrix, not to mention sabotaging and committing acts of terrorism against Zion is in direct violation of the truce.

The Oracle: What about the others?
The Architect: What others?
The Oracle: The ones that want out...
The Architect: Obviously they will be freed.

It willingly performed an act that it *knew* would cause the truce to break.

Insanity, I agree. Manipulative, underhanded insanity.

Cryptos and Toorima were already free from the Matrix; they were not overwritten as bluepills.

If Zion had considered these acts to break the truce, why didn't they say "Machines, you have broken the truce, we are no longer operating under its terms"? 

Illyria

Edit: Regarding the time frame...Niobe admits that New Zion was being planned soon after the truce went into effect, not when she was in Anome's construct.  Building started when she was in the construct.

If Zion had considered these acts to break the truce, why didn't they say "Machines, you have broken the truce, we are no longer operating under its terms"? 

Failure to conform to the dictates of the System is no longer an acceptable option.

Croesus wrote:

I see, so you are saying that Zion violated the truce because the Machines had? But plans for your 'New Zion' were made before the Machines plans for Cryptos.

I'm saying what you said, Vinia.

"So if the truce was undermined by sabotage, murder and spying, then we are all to blame, Zion and the Machines."

And CloudWolf is right about the timeframe.

Really? I must submit to optical testing as I swear Niobe said they started work on planning a new base right after the Machines almost destroyed Zion.....

Agent_Gray wrote:

Failure to conform to the dictates of the System is no longer an acceptable option.

This is very simple to translate.  "Do what we say or die."

I hope everyone realizes that.  I hope that even those on both sides who say that they will continue to fight for the Truce realize that.  I hope they fully understand that Zion has no privileges now.

and now we're getting into "He started, no He did"

Can we all agree that both sides have done stuff that has violated the Truce?

He's right, we can't go back to the old truce. The Old Ways are done, we now have to muck through to find a new form of peace. One way or the other

and now we're getting into "He started, no He did"

Can we all agree that both sides have done stuff that has violated the Truce?

I can agree to that. I merely reposted the appropriate image to prove I was correct in an earlier point, one that was challenged. The point is now, what is the next step, I still believe in peace, but we must forgo the mistakes made previously and move forward.

Agent_Gray wrote:

Failure to conform to the dictates of the System is no longer an acceptable option.

This is very simple to translate.  "Do what we say or die."

I hope everyone realizes that.  I hope that even those on both sides who say that they will continue to fight for the Truce realize that.  I hope they fully understand that Zion has no privileges now.

That 1% that Zion was allowed to awaken are no longer allowed.  The Machines will kill you or kill them to prevent them from being awakened... they've done it in the past and they'll do it now.  The only reason our EJP's still work is because they can't take back the technology they've made available for us to recreate and use at our will.  But expect them to start circumventing it, because they will.

Contrary to popular belief, I want peace as much as anyone else does...  but the Truce is no longer the route to that.  It hasn't been in a very long time.  Only now does that become obvious to several of those who did not already see it.

Bickering and speculating is pointless.

Survival of the human race is what matters now, and everyone has their opinion on the best path for that.

But the Zion I knew believed in awakening those who needed to be awakened, regardless of cost.  EPN will lend it's help to Zion in every regard for their safety and the safety of the human race.

Know that.

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

Rarebit wrote:

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

(( What?! Surely they played a part in it. The game manual states that the EJP was created following the 'exchange of information' that followed the Truce, or something to that effect. Zion couldn't've invented it without the Machines' help. ))

Procurator wrote:

Rarebit wrote:

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

(( What?! Surely they played a part in it. The game manual states that the EJP was created following the 'exchange of information' that followed the Truce, or something to that effect. Zion couldn't've invented it without the Machines' help. ))

I've said before that Humans can be quite inventive when they need to be, take all of the destructive weaponry they've made in their own internal wars. I am sure however that the Machines, who have a deeper understanding of their own creation, gave information to Zion about the workings of the simulation for the purpose of creating this system...

Rarebit wrote:

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

(( What?! Surely they played a part in it. The game manual states that the EJP was created following the 'exchange of information' that followed the Truce, or something to that effect. Zion couldn't've invented it without the Machines' help. ))

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

I always wondered about when and how it was invented.

Illyria 

Neoteny wrote:

If "undermining" the Truce by building a city, which actually has nothing to do with the conditions above breaks the Truce, I submit to you that it has broken for quite some time.

Most of us did not know the specific terms of the truce...however, Zion command knew enough to know that the building of this armed city would be seen as a breach of that truce.  They willingly performed an act that they *knew* would cause the truce to break. 

Insanity.  Pure, self-destructive insanity.

Illyria

Okay, you've said that several times before and i still have no clue where you got that idea...

Zion knew the Machines would view the construction and arming of New Zion as invalidating the truce.  Yet they did it anyway, thus insuring that the truce would end.  That's insanity.

Illyria

The Machines did not invent the emergency jackout system.

((Big /pound to Starschwar and Procurator for being a voice of reason within the proceedings. However, I believe that there were some occasions where people heard what they wanted to hear. Some Machinists mentioned that the current situation might cause Zionites to defect: I would suggest the alternative, and await the Machinist applications....))

Is Zion really looking to bring down The Matrix? Are we not simply looking to offer Bluepills the choice of staying or leaving? Once Bluepills are offered a choice, they are no longer slaves. I would ask for no more from The Machines than this.

I imagine that there would be many who would not wish to face the harsh realities of human existence. They would willingly remain in their dream-state, and The Matrix would continue to be populated; and hence viable.

I believe we have an equal responsibility to protect the choice of these people, as much as those who would wish to be awakened. Therefore, we have an indirect responsibility to protect The Matrix; due to the inhabitants who are content with their position.

How long will it be before The Machines find an alternative fuel source and Bluepills are no longer the best source of power? Without the need for Bluepills, the simulation in which they live also has no purpose. Without The Matrix, what is the point of having a place to house those who reject the simulation? Zion has never been safe for it's inhabitants: A sword of Damocles has always floated above our heads.

The whole reason why Exile programs exist in Megacity, is through The Machine's tendency to delete the redundant; the Condemned finding sanctuary in The Matrix. The ultimate example of this is The Merovingian's château, which I understand to be impervious to the reset process. Are The Machines crying "foul!" at his pressumed immunity to their influence? So why is it that humans are to be regarded as a threat, when they act similarly? Are we to lie prone and await our eventual redundancy and deletion?

The parrallels between Exiles and New Zion exposes the disparity in how each are treated. There is no good reason for The Machines to apply such injustice and discrimination, and this is obvious when their declaration of War has even been poorly received by many of their own operatives. Yet still they are resolute to the hostilities and discount all possibility of diplomacy. Why?....

To acheive Peace, first both sides must no longer yearn for War. The irrational and excessive Machine response to news of New Zion, indicates that this is not the case. I sense a Secret Agenda, which will not be fulfilled until a Zion of any sort, ceases to exist. ((Whilst I would not wish to scare-monger, I can think of no other reason why Gray would suggest that negotiation will not be entertained.))

I recognise that humanity holds a symbiotic relationship with The Machines. I will champion Human Rights, but will do so in a manner which is pragmatic and considers the fundamental needs of all cognitive life. It is most distressing that this respect for Life is not shared by Zero One.

Do I call Zion to Arms? No! This reaction to an irrational act would simply serve to perpetuate the irrationality of the situation.

Look to the coming weeks, and we will see The Architect's true intentions. Let he be judged against the dual standards which he seems to hold. A failure to open a dialogue with Zion Command will be an indicator of wider implications. If that does transpire, I would still not call Zion to arms, I would ask it of all Humanity to hear the call.... We must prevent a tactic of "divide and conquer" if our species is to survive.

::EDIT:: (Just to add a quick plea from a soap box)

Wake up! All of you! Has The General succeeded? Are we all so easy to manipulate?