Why should we trust you? Really, please give me some reasons.

I'm serious, Zion.  Please, explain to me why the machines or us Machinists should trust you?  What reasons have you given us to do so?  I'll list the reasons why we don't, and why you needed to prove to us you'd changed before we could have had real peace... I'm hoping some of you can respond with valid reasons why we should trust you.

 It almost sounds like you admit that the "truce" that was given is not the "peace" that was bargined for. Carefull, your a yellow flag away from being called a terrorist.

1.  From humanity's beginning, we have always been a violent race.  War has always been the principle way in which we've provoked change and growth in our world.  Even when we didn't share the world with another sentient species, we were constantly fighting each other for power, land, wealth or even theological beliefs.  We have always been a violent race, and we have always been a danger to this planet, and ourselves.

This applies to every living organism on the planet if you simply change the word "war" to the word "conflict"...Do the machines judge rabbits as being worthy of enslavment?

2. When the machines first rose up as sentient beings, we enslaved them and grew fat on their backs.  They did all the work, we got to do all the playing.  They were not considered equals and they were treated worse than most any other species on the planet.

3. When one stood up for himself and killed humans in self defense, we destroyed him and refused to acknowledge that machines might have rights.  They were eventually herded away and isolated, much like the Native Americans who were placed on reservations centuries earlier.  History repeated itself, it seems.

Points two and three are so related I will address them both here...Yup your completly right...Human beings have been doing this kind of thing to each other for thousands of years, however we are slowly but diffently changing. I point to the American civil war as evidence of that change.

4. They established their own society and culture and quickly became more productive than us.  They came to the UN to seek friendship, partnership... we destroyed their representatives and nuked their home.  The war was quick and brutal.  We lost.

((I cant comment on this...where are you getting this from?))

5. We spent the next six or more centuries trying to destroy the machines, not realizing it was all part of a cycle put in place to keep us under control.  Our motives had not changed one bit.  We desired their extinction and our return to prominence.

We were obviously working under false information or a lack of information. We didn't even know what year it was and given the reality of the situation we were in it is hard to believe that any of us could have come to any other conclusion other then that the machines are hostile and are bent on our continued bondage as a species even if that ment our slaugher as individuals.

6. The cycle was broken and humanity was given a chance to prove it had grown, that it was no longer the violence driven and destructive race we had been throughout our history.  We responded by fracturing into multiple organizations and fighting amongst ourselves for more power, for control of the future, control of the people waking up from the system.

I suspect this will be a matter of opinion...I see this as proof that we have grown as a species. The machines are "guilty" of this too if you want to call it a flaw. And they arnt of one mind either...otherwise the exiles wouldint exist.

7. Zion spent the two years paid for with Neo's life building a fortress to separate themselves from the Machines, rather than work with them toward peace.  We, as a species, wasted the opportunity we had to show the machines we were no longer what they were once forced to imprison.  We are once again at war.

Us seperate ourselves from them??? Correct me if Im wrong but the machine city is exactly defensless either. I mean...humanity (except neo obviously) has no where near the capability to over come those defenses...so what are the machines so afriad of? The rabbits?

So, I ask you, Zion.  With these facts laid out for you, it's not hard to see why the Machines don't trust us enough to just back away and let us do as we please.  What reasons have you, as an organization, given them to do so?  Why do you just expect them to hand you the keys to the hovercraft and let you be on your way with all of this hanging on us from the past?

We've done nothing, as far as I can see, to show them we've changed.  Neo, a great man, was apparently too far ahead of his time to have a lasting impact.  He realized what we had to do.  It's just a shame that the rest of our species apparently wasn't ready to take those steps.

With an EPN tag over my head I confidently stare you right in the eyes and say one word in regards to your last comment, "Agreed"

*shakes his head in disapointment* Its amazing how good we all are at not understanding one another...I mean seriously; were supposed to be social creatures?

Im sorry but I am not going to try to address every single point made...theres just too many and I think there are more important things to be said.

In my opinion we humans that find our selves on differnt sides of the fences sort to speak...zion/epn/machine operatives....it seems we all want the same thing. This is not unexpected in light of what it is we all want...Iv heard many of you machine operatives say you want to uphold "the truce"; as an EPN I wish for peace. "Peace" is what Neo actually said...not "truce". Many of you machs have used these two words interchangably but I do not; to me "truce" is a lesser dagree of peace. A truce is defined by rules; "you can free X amount of bluepills and you cant destroy us" for example. Peace on the other hand, requires no such rules or boundries. To me A truce is the middle ground between peace and war...what makes me an extreamist is that I think peace is worth going to war over; when you add the undiniable fact that THE "truce" was obviously doomed to fail from the beginning because it left Zion with the decision to either exband the city/ build a new city, or cull the population/die of starvation ((I know i might be exagerating a tiny bit here but only to epmhasize a point))...the decision of what action to take becomes very clear.

This is why I am EPN...because anything short of peace; the peace that Neo actually barginined for; is unacceptable. THE "truce" was unaccaptable.

I call it THE "truce" because I find it hard to see as A truce. I think a truce is infinitly negotiatable ((hehe that sounds good if I do say so myself))...Did the machines try to talk to Zion about the new city before the order was given to stop all bluepill awakenings? Before war was declared? How many lives have been lost since the start of this war? because thats how many deaths could have been avoided by a phone call. You said we have to prove to them that we have changed but we don't jump at the chance to declar war. take the cuban missile crisis for example; if we had handeled that the way the machines handeled the discovery of new zion would humans have been around to build the machines in the first place? THAT was obviously a hostile move...building a bunker on the other hand; well we have already been over this.

Aquatium. wrote:

Sphairo87 wrote:

1) He never said that, you might want to brush up on that, spin doctor.
2) she wipes some wine off her nose, trying to contain her laughter
3) See above ^
4) The purpose for this new base is clearly *not* about peace, otherwise it wouldn't have been built as such, so the machines could not get to it. It.would.not be built as indestructable, as fortified and as potentially dangerous (Drilling even closer to the earths inner core and mantel is a reeeeal smart idea) if zions leadership wasn't prepering something. You don't need to ask the oracle to work that out, killer.   Who's got what now held to their head? Oh, you mean this? Ahhhh, okie dokie!

Your words hold about as much meaning as the kid trying to get himself a girl, and that's saying something.

spha x

1.  Agent Gray: In the past the city was repopulated following a reset of the simulation. A vital factor contributing to such a rest no longer exists. Therefore, the old system of re-establishing the city of Zion is no longer valid and may not be nescessary.

They won't let Zion exist should they destroy it.

2. I suggest using your mouth to drink wine.
3. See above ^

4. They spent all this time making a base to protect themselves, a base that can't attack the Matrix or 01.

As I said, it doesn't matter how much weight you think my words hold, that doesn't take away the message they are conveying, you and other simply wish to ignore and acknowledge, your own ego is doing this.

The fact that you still don't understand how a defensive base can be seen as a threat is just plain ignorant and immature.  It either shows that you do not know human history or don't care.  I feel sorry for those that are following you and trust in you.  You still don't get it.  I would have more respect for you if you would move on from this as an argument because it does not hold water.  All military leaders of our history would know that it would be seen as a threat.  As a matter of fact even the Zion leaders knew that which is why they didn't tell the small peons like you about it.  Zionites can now operate any way they please in the Matrix which would harm bluepills without fear of retribution because they have their super secret Cybertron underground base that the machines cannot touch.  The deterrence is no longer there.  Refute that one baby Neo, and back it up without a one liner that includes calling me sheep and puppets, bring some substance as to why I am wrong and not because you say so.  As a human I can admit that had the humans won the war and if we allowed the machines to survive, and that is a stretch with our genocidal history, we would never, ever, ever allow them to be on equal footing with humans nor ever build a defensive base against us.  If the machines came to us and said, Just trust us and have faith, we would laugh in their face.  If you cannot admit that then you are a biased fool.

"Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*." - Illyria

"We started working on a backup plan for a new base right after the Machines almost destroyed Zion." ~ Niobe

((If you truly feel this way then I thought you were cooler then this satta))

Old zion has not been evacuated and will not be...given the physical locations of 01, old Zion, and new zion building the new city with fortifications is essentially the same thing has standing toe to toe with your enemy and putting on a bullet proof vest while they hold a kneife to your neck. THIS is why the consruction of New Zion should not be a threat.

Let me spell it out for you again since you machs dont seem to graps the options avialable to you in the current tactical situation...

"Zionites can now operate any way they please in the Matrix which would harm bluepills without fear of retribution because they have their super secret Cybertron underground base that the machines cannot touch.  The deterrence is no longer there.  Refute that one..." Attack old Zion...the place where all our families and friends are living with little or no defense capable of stoping a sentenal army.

If you honestly think that Zionites would make a hostile move even with this new base then you have lost much of your humanity and I feel bad for those that would call you a friend.

Um yeah our history really shows that Machines should "trust" humans...

1860-65: American civil war (360,000) two democracies
1886-1908: Belgium-Congo Free State (3 million)
1899-02: British-Boer war (100,000)
1899-03: Colombian civil war (120,000)
1899-02: Philippines vs USA (20,000)
1900-01: Boxer rebels against Russia, Britain, France, Japan, USA against rebels (35,000)
1903: Ottomans vs Macedonian rebels (20,000)
1904: Germany vs Namibia (65,000)
1904-05: Japan vs Russia (150,000)
1910-20: Mexican revolution (250,000)
1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
1911-12: Italian-Ottoman war (20,000)
1912-13: Balkan wars (150,000)
1915: the Ottoman empire slaughters Armenians (1.2 million)
1914-18: World War I (8 million)
1916: Kyrgyz revolt against Russia (120,000)
1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (7 million)
1934: Mao's Long March (170,000)
1936: Italy's invasion of Ethiopia (200,000)
1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million)
1936-39: Spanish civil war (600,000)
1937-45: Japanese invasion of China (500,000)
1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
1946-49: Chinese civil war (1.2 million)
1946-49: Greek civil war (50,000)
1946-54: France-Vietnam war (600,000)
1947: Partition of India and Pakistan (1 million) two nominal democracies
1947: Taiwan's uprising against the Kuomintang (30,000)
1948-1958: Colombian civil war (250,000)
1948-1973: Arab-Israeli wars (70,000)
1949-: Indian Muslims vs Hindus (20,000)
1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)
1950-53: Korean war (4 million)
1952-59: Kenya's Mau Mau insurrection (20,000)
1954-62: French-Algerian war (368,000)
1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million)
1960-90: South Africa vs Africa National Congress (?)
1960-96: Guatemala's civil war (200,000)
1961-98: Indonesia vs West Papua/Irian (100,000)
1961-2003: Kurds vs Iraq (180,000)
1962-75: Mozambique Frelimo vs Portugal (?)
1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
1965: second India-Pakistan war over Kashmir
1965-66: Indonesian civil war (200,000)
1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million)
1966-: Colombia's civil war (31,000)
1967-70: Nigeria-Biafra civil war (800,000)
1968-80: Rhodesia's civil war (?)
1969-: Philippines vs New People's Army (40,000)
1969-79: Idi Amin, Uganda (300,000)
1969-02: IRA - Norther Ireland's civil war (2,000)
1969-79: Francisco Macias Nguema, Equatorial Guinea (50,000)
1971: Pakistan-Bangladesh civil war (500,000)
1972-: Philippines vs Muslim separatists (120,000)
1972: Burundi's civil war (300,000)
1972-79: Rhodesia/Zimbabwe's civil war (30,000)
1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
1975-89: Boat people, Vietnam (250,000)
1975-90: civil war in Lebanon (40,000)
1975-87: Laos' civil war (184,000)
1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)
1976-83: Argentina's military regime (20,000)
1976-93: Mozambique's civil war (900,000)
1976-98: Indonesia-East Timor civil war (600,000)
1976-2005: Indonesia-Aceh (GAM) civil war (12,000)
1979: Vietnam-China war (30,000)
1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
1980-88: Iraq-Iran war (1 million)
1980-92: Sendero Luminoso - Peru's civil war (69,000)
1980-92: El Salvador's civil war (75,000)
1980-99: Kurds vs Turkey (35,000)
1981-90: Nicaragua vs Contras (60,000)
1982-90: Hissene Habre, Chad (40,000)
1983-2002: Sri Lanka's civil war (64,000)
1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
1986-: Indian Kashmir's civil war (60,000)
1987-: Palestinian Intifada (4,500)
1988-2001: Afghanistan civil war (400,000)
1988-2004: Somalia's civil war (550,000)
1989-: Liberian civil war (220,000)
1989-: Uganda vs Lord's Resistance Army (30,000)
1991: Gulf War - large coalition against Iraq to liberate Kuwait (85,000)
1991-97: Congo's civil war (800,000)
1991-2000: Sierra Leone's civil war (200,000)
1991-: Russia-Chechnya civil war (200,000)
1991-94: Armenia-Azerbaijan war (35,000)
1992-96: Tajikstan's civil war war (50,000)
1992-96: Yugoslavia's civil war (260,000)
1992-99: Algerian civil war (150,000)
1993-97: Congo Brazzaville's civil war (100,000)
1993-2005: Burundi's civil war (200,000)
1994: Rwanda's civil war (900,000)
1995-: Pakistani Sunnis vs Shiites (1,300)
1995-: Maoist rebellion in Nepal (12,000)
1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)
1998-2000: Ethiopia-Eritrea war (75,000)
1999: Kosovo's liberation war - NATO vs Serbia (2,000)

And then to make it even worst.  When we finally united with each other we attempted to wipe out the machines and as a result "WE" killed all animal and plant life on the surface of the planet.

But I guess none of that matters because Aquatium and his band of merry men are "different."

Why am I not suprised that you forgot to add how many people the machines have killed, but then how could you since no one knows an exact number. How bout we try just for kicks though?

hundreds of millions?

1 billion?

nah I think its more like...

billionS murdered, untold Billions more judged guilty of crimes others commited and imprisoned at birth.

Oh yes...lets be like the machines because they stand on the moral high ground!!!...((How about we just execute everyone because a few have murdered others?)) By your logic; or is it the machines logic? I dunno; we should judge all the machines based on Smith's actions.

And while your screaming that none of us address your points, how bout you adress ours.

"Here are the major arguing points that Zionites have been making.

• The machines were just looking for an excuse to go to war
• New Zion is just a defensive base
• The machines "Assume" that Zion would attack them from their new base
• The machines broke the truce numerous times because of the Cypherites."

I relize you ment zions in general and not just me and all that but...

Given the terms of the "truce"; o and uh umm the fact that when Neo orginaly bargined for (PEACE!!!) the machines immediate responce was hostile, it wasint untill Neo pointed out that only he could save THEM did they even consider the "truce"; it was doomed from the start and I think that was by design. I mean seriously...if their machines are so super A.I. smart then howd they come up with such a flawed "truce" if they actually ment for it to work?

If I have ever said new zion is a defensive base then I appolagize...I mis-spoke. In my opnion it is simply Zion expanding to accomadait a larger population. If not understanding how New Zion is a threat makes me so dumb then why can't any of you explain how it IS a threat given the tactical options avialabe to the machines?

When your strongest argument is "So and so said this...your not all unified...Im judging you all on what so and so said" you lose a whole lot of respect and ground to stand on. And while your screaming that none of us address your points, how bout you address ours. ((Is it part of every machs charachter to be insanly hypocritical? Or am I doing the same thing they do and judging them all based on the words and actions of the ones that ARE hypocritcal in order to support my point?))

Let me give you an example of a good foundation for trust.

Iovai: Stuff that 'theoretically' could be used to breach new Zion.
Iovai: Theoretically.
Illyria1: Smallpox and plutonium could theoretically be used to breach New Zion too.
GQubed: Where can I pick up some of Coating?
Iovai: I'm working on that.
Illyria1: No need to send an armed ship when you can use biologics or radiation.
Sugaree: hot lava diverted down their throats would also be quite effective. and efficient, too
Eventual: Their infrastructure is not without its vunerabilities

Do you feel my sarcasm?

Fen wrote:

Mave wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Here is another reason not to trust Zion, one we learned tonight.  Zion's liaison officer Rylet has offered up a bounty on agents, the ones with a combat level of 100.  But as we all know, agents use the bodies of bluepills as hosts...

So every time Zion kills an agent for their little contest, they are murdering a bluepill. 

This is nothing like the the combat tests we've seen before.  In the past, when a liaison has run an efficiency test, the targets have always been other redpills.  No-one and nothing is harmed, except perhaps the pride of those whose rsi's are sent back to the loading area.  But this time is very different.  This time, those who are shot down will not get up again.  (Except for the agents, who cannot be killed permanently in this fashion, making the entire operation an exercise in futility.)

I've read the opinions of many Zionites...they say that they stand for humanity, that they are the last hope for the human race, that they are fighting for freedom.  But now Zion has turned murder into a *contest*.

And you really expect the Machines to trust you, when you would kill your own kind for sport?

Illyria

Soooooo let me get this straight. You make us look bad because we're fighting agents, when your own Agent Gray held a very similar contest for you guys months back?

Man I'm looking for a word...man...what is it? Oh yeah: HYPOCRASY!

Oh and feel free to somehow take my words out of content. You guys a pretty "efficient" at that.

Efficiently Yours,

Mave.

::walks off laughing due to high levels of Irony::

The thing that was different about that, is that redpill operatives can reconstruct.  A bluepill that an Agent took over cannot.

I understand completely where Illyria is coming from, and the source of her concern.

I just find it slightly hypocritical that she talks of Zionites murdering bluepills when they kill Agents, and yet she and hers talk of destroying two cities that hold a population of millions.  People who are just as innocent as the bluepills.  She talks of dumping chemical and biological agents into New Zion... one of them even suggest heating the strata so that New Zion would fill up with magma, burning everyone down there alive.  Let's not forget the great radiation idea that Illyria had, where she even commented that it's not like they'd have to worry about the environment on the surface.

Yeah...  off the high horse.

While EJP may be active on redpills, that doesn't exclude the fact that the contest was based around hunting other human beings. Hunting human beings is still hunting human beings.

If I were purely logical (I understand this may require a large leap in faith but humor me should time and Tim permit), if I had a program that worked for centuries upon centuries that was eventually thwarted by a monkey wrench (for sake of argument we'll call this monkey wrench "Neo", naturally I would logically concur that the program would need updating and that time would need to be expended to do so, two or so years should be plenty enough.

I would take it as a logical theory that humans have a perchance for war as they are beings of progression. Give those suckers an inch and those vexating fleshy creatures will just stretch and stretch and stretch in as many directions as their mind contends. I would even go as far to allow several to be awakened so that they can explore different ways they will inevitably war against themselves in the name of such progression. If you consider all the great wars in human history and the time it took the humans to come to the silly misguided conclusion that war was the only answer, the only possible solution why, I think I could even come up with a general equation that computes just how long it takes men to get themselves into a tizzy dependant on how many were involved in the equation (how many awakened), and how many strong opposing views and lifestyles they carry (range: 3-5). Then use this theoretical equation to gauge about how much time I needed to conjure up a new program, though the quicker would be better considering the squabs do cause such a ruckus.

Did you hear a ruckus? I clearly heard a ruckus.

"What ruckus?"

::chuckles to self::

Naturally I would let the humans war against themselves for these "ideals" that they had, let them thin each other out so that it would be easier to implement the few left standing after the great war into the new program. Less resistence equals hooray! Essentially, isn't it all a numbers game?

If I were logical I would simply say, why even ask this question of trust, oh wait, I'm not asking, my human scallywags are the ones that are asking, I suppose they're useful for something. I would simply look at my clock, give a once over to my equations, put the finishing touches on this new program I was working on then watch the show.

Truly, a Merovingian has no place in this thread. We must be misguided in thinking that when the toaster humans and the cave monkeys finish their business and are thus in perfect position to be implemented in the new program that we also will not be a part of it.

That we'll have a greater liklihood of being alive and awakened. Which seems ironic no? Seeming as we have so little human interest.~

You might wish to make a big deal of this "contest" you call it, however Fallen Horizon WILL defend itself if attacked by agents, it's called self defense. You fail to understand we don't go looking for agents, they are looking for us.

sallo wrote:

If I were purely logical (I understand this may require a large leap in faith but humor me should time and Tim permit), if I had a program that worked for centuries upon centuries that was eventually thwarted by a monkey wrench (for sake of argument we'll call this monkey wrench "Neo", naturally I would logically concur that the program would need updating and that time would need to be expended to do so, two or so years should be plenty enough.

I would take it as a logical theory that humans have a perchance for war as they are beings of progression. Give those suckers an inch and those vexating fleshy creatures will just stretch and stretch and stretch in as many directions as their mind contends. I would even go as far to allow several to be awakened so that they can explore different ways they will inevitably war against themselves in the name of such progression. If you consider all the great wars in human history and the time it took the humans to come to the silly misguided conclusion that war was the only answer, the only possible solution why, I think I could even come up with a general equation that computes just how long it takes men to get themselves into a tizzy dependant on how many were involved in the equation (how many awakened), and how many strong opposing views and lifestyles they carry (range: 3-5). Then use this theoretical equation to gauge about how much time I needed to conjure up a new program, though the quicker would be better considering the squabs do cause such a ruckus.

Did you hear a ruckus? I clearly heard a ruckus.

"What ruckus?"

::chuckles to self::

Naturally I would let the humans war against themselves for these "ideals" that they had, let them thin each other out so that it would be easier to implement the few left standing after the great war into the new program. Less resistence equals hooray! Essentially, isn't it all a numbers game?

If I were logical I would simply say, why even ask this question of trust, oh wait, I'm not asking, my human scallywags are the ones that are asking, I suppose they're useful for something. I would simply look at my clock, give a once over to my equations, put the finishing touches on this new program I was working on then watch the show.

Truly, a Merovingian has no place in this thread. We must be misguided in thinking that when the toaster humans and the cave monkeys finish their business and are thus in perfect position to be implemented in the new program that we also will not be a part of it.

That we'll have a greater liklihood of being alive and awakened. Which seems ironic no? Seeming as we have so little human interest.~

Firstly the program is not broken, it has opened up the potential for peace between us, something the Machines likely never thought possible.

Secondly, logic, the Machines are not creatures of logic.  They feel, to greater and lesser degrees. The "logical" thing to have done would be to have ignored the truce as soon as Neo was done with Smith, wipe Zion out and continue the cycle.  That would have allowed them to continue with the control so many think they crave above all else, that is what logic dictates they should do even now.

As a Merv you should be well aware of the presence of Machine emotion, or do you consider your Exile allies to not have been Machines?  The Merovingian holds an important place in the simulation, he is a central control for the Exile population, without him their would be chaos within and outside the Matrix.

I never said anything about "broken" but the program can be updated to ensure a few more centuries of compliance.

"The Machines are not creatures of logic" everyone is of course entitled to their own opinion but I maintain that they are; however, I never said that they were solely creatures of logic. As a Merovingian operative of course I can appreciate the sentience of the Machines. You make a valid point that they have the capacity for emotion and understanding however, the rewriting and updating of any program requires time, that and perhaps because within this iteration "Neo" did exist I can commesurate with you when you say they truly did give humans another chance to redeem themselves.

But to think that the Machines didn't at least prepare for another human uprising is an admirable practice in silliness. To say that the Machines "trust" the humans to not prepare for the possibility of the Truce being broken is equally ridiculous. To say that the Machines truly trust you as their operatives enough to allow you to remain awakened after the current war, trust you enough to think that you won't go the way of your warring human operatives, well, at this point I'm just being repetitive aren't I?

When the battlegrounds are cleared for the war the Machine operatives admit they're sure to win, won't those very same Machine operatives outlive their usefullness? Or do you also wish to tell me how the Machines are not creatures of efficiency as well? Feel free to prepare for your afterlife, perhaps if you put in a good word they'll reinsert you as the owner of a prime vineyard - to which I'll delight in sipping your wine. Only difference is, I'll know it isn't truly real.