[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07

GamiSB wrote:

4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.

His exact words were "Sputnik, that's a good point, but I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths -- not if there's any other way."

That's hardly an absolute statement.  He's flat out saying, the only way he'd do it is if there is no other way.  So if there is no alternative, he'll kill millions of bluepills.  Your attempt to spin this is laughable.

E Pluribus Neo has identified that at least without Zion they are nothing. I hope you consider your plans with Zion Kid, I wouldn't want you 'band of hero's' to get lost out there.

TH

GamiSB wrote:

Were EPN, not Zion.

Funny. From how Michael opened his report it seems he considers you all one and the same now. It's even almost like what he was aiming for all along by his statement and demeanor.

Hmmm......

Lucen wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.

His exact words were "Sputnik, that's a good point, but I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths -- not if there's any other way."

That's hardly an absolute statement.  He's flat out saying, the only way he'd do it is if there is no other way.  So if there is no alternative, he'll kill millions of bluepills.  Your attempt to spin this is laughable.

I'm sorry but who would be better to interpret Michaels words a Macxhinest or an EPN? As I said go ahead and think of it however you want but I've already told you the truth behind it. I know where I stand and I know what my leaders words mean.

*gives Gami some dap*

Sphairo87 wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Machinists want things to be worked out and dealt with differantly, instead of pointing the gun. You zions act like your the innocent, yet here you are advocating war with a gun in your hand, WANTING A WAR?  No wonder there's an army of sentiant programs coming to kill you all!  Enjoy your time whilst you can, terrorists.

As for you, ezec.. it may be sooner than you think. I've been acheing for the thrill of a kill. 

spha x

Bring it, red. I'm not afraid of you or anyone else here, and you know this.

Zion moved itself out of the path of that sentinel army to safety in the name of defending itself. Zion didn't declare war against the Machine, the Architect did. You saw it just as I did. Oh yeah, and we'll see just how formidable that brooding army of sentinels is when it hits the EMP fields if the Machine gets the cojones to take it there.

- Ezechiel

Lucen wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.

His exact words were "Sputnik, that's a good point, but I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths -- not if there's any other way."

That's hardly an absolute statement.  He's flat out saying, the only way he'd do it is if there is no other way.  So if there is no alternative, he'll kill millions of bluepills.  Your attempt to spin this is laughable.

I'm sorry but who would be better to interpret Michaels words a Macxhinest or an EPN? As I said go ahead and think of it however you want but I've already told you the truth behind it. I know where I stand and I know what my leaders words mean.

Pyraci wrote:

*gives Gami some dap*

Sphairo87 wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Machinists want things to be worked out and dealt with differantly, instead of pointing the gun. You zions act like your the innocent, yet here you are advocating war with a gun in your hand, WANTING A WAR?  No wonder there's an army of sentiant programs coming to kill you all!  Enjoy your time whilst you can, terrorists.

As for you, ezec.. it may be sooner than you think. I've been acheing for the thrill of a kill. 

spha x

There is no interpretation necessary here.  His words are quite clear.  He wants to wipe out the machine race and he's willing to let billions die if no other choice is available.  That shouldn't even be a consideration, but he doesn't rule it out.

Zion's officials and operatives seem to have a problem with people using literal translations of clear declarative statements.  Perhaps Zion Command should sit down with them and teach them the value of only making such statements when you are sure of what you're saying... or at the very least that you won't be overheard.

Odd, was it not you and other machinest argueing over the literal translations of the Architect saying "No more awakenings are allowed"? They have a word for that you know. But you see, humans have this amazing abbiltiy to use figertive language. Machines like to be as direct as possible but humans dress things up. It's why Machine cinima was a flop while the Hollywood became one of humanities last exports before the war.

Odd, was it not you and other machinest argueing over the literal translations of the Architect saying "No more awakenings are allowed"? They have a word for that you know. But you see, humans have this amazing abbiltiy to use figertive language. Machines like to be as direct as possible but humans dress things up. It's why Machine cinima was a flop while the Hollywood became one of humanities last exports before the war.

Croesus wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

1. Michael already dismissed the Matrix as being the weak spot.
2. We have never wanted to kill blues for any reason what so ever.
3. We are well aware of the fact that killing the Machines would kill blues.
4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.
5. He saved us he saved them he saved the Matrix. <-- Core piece of EPN doctrine.

Ok, so you know that shutting the Machines down will more than likely result in millions of bluepill deaths...
yet you don't want to take any life to shut down the Machines... What are you trying to accomplish?

True Peace.

True Peace Eh? A noble cause to be sure, but true peace for who? Man? Man and Machine? Man, Machine and Program? It seems strange to me that you would attempt to gain peace by military routes rather than diplomacy. You cannot say the the plans that many EPN were putting forward were diplomatic...

Judging by your past history as a group, diplomacy seems to come second to direct and often destructive action.

A hand need to be put out, a message saying 'we will lay down our arms for peace'. Why not allow Humanity to take the ground this time rather than the Machines who attempted this at the United Nations so many years ago, show them that Mankind can evolve past its infantile prejudice, willing to put aside blame for the current situation? Or are you so caught up in attempting to attack the Machines that you are unwilling to entertain the idea of making the first move?

The only real way true peace between all of our races can be achieved is with trust and respect and cooperation but someone has set aside all grievances to make the first move...

 Croesus wrote:

If Zion didn't want a war, why violate the agreement and build a fortified base?
 

Besides New Zion is a Violation of the agreement between Zion and The Machines, being able to attack then retreat to relative safety...

Ummm... Have I missed receiving my copy of The Treaty? To what text do you refer when you state the terms of the agreement? Is it like the Magna Carta or The Bill of Rights? Can I visit Zero One as a tourist and pick up a print from the gift shop?

Okay, I'm being flippant but the general point is valid...

By definition, a truce is often informal and of a temporary nature. Now, I know that the Ark of Armaggedon delivers a Record of Pact, but I am not so sure that this is actually referring to the Zion/Machine truce. Is there some other document which I should be referring to? Since Neo was not in a position to negotiate terms after dealing with Smith, I doubt there has ever been a formalisation to the terms of Peace. Okay, there might have been a meeting between other parties: Please, feel free to clue me in.

I don't want to repeat what will likely become a painfully common Zionite comment but, "building New Zion is a solely defensive act": The Truce has most likely been formed on a basis of agreeing mutual non-aggression. Whilst I am sure that no Machine would happily lose such a tactical advantage, the response to this recent development seems to be best described as "Sabre Rattling" or even "a temper tantrum".

A Truce is not another term for Surrender. Zion would be stupid to miss an opportunity to struggle free from beneath the blade of The Machine's guillotine. The whole reason why exile programs exist is that The Machine's develop and delete the redundant or obselete. So how long before The Machines find an alternative fuel source and all Bluepills are no longer the best source of power? Without Bluepills, the simulation in which they live also has no purpose. Without The Matrix, what is the point of having a place to house those who reject the simulation?

The Exiles find sanctuary in The Matrix. The ultimate example of this is The Merovingian's chateau which I understand to be impervious to the reset process. Are The Machines crying "foul!" at his pressumed immunity to their influence? So why is it that humans are to be regarded as a threat when they act similarly?

Or are you so caught up in attempting to attack the Machines that you are unwilling to entertain the idea of making the first move?

The only real way true peace between all of our races can be achieved is with trust and respect and cooperation but someone has set aside all grievances to make the first move...

hear me out.

Zion still needs to have machines running and working in order to survive in the caves.  Those machines have not been programmed for destruction or fighting or even knowing the difference between an ally and an enemy.  They perform a specific function and thats it.

Shutting down the Machines is possible without killing all the humans in the pods.  We wouldn't turn off every machine that is turned on just because its on the surface of the earth!  The machines that take care of the pods and harvest fields are not programmed to fight or know what an enemy is.  They are toasters that perform a function and thats it.

We would destroy all machines that know the difference between an enemy and an ally and take away control.  We would figure out a way to take control over the Matrix and keep it alive until all humans are given the choice of awakening.

-----------------------------------------   -------------------------------------------  --------------------------------  --------------------------------

To ZION, EPN will help you any way we can.  It is what Kid wants us to do, so we will do it.  You can call on us for anything, we are just a phone call away.  I cant speak for the other EPN Factions but you can rely on Insurgence for backup.

Croesus wrote:

Or are you so caught up in attempting to attack the Machines that you are unwilling to entertain the idea of making the first move?

The only real way true peace between all of our races can be achieved is with trust and respect and cooperation but someone has set aside all grievances to make the first move...

New Zion wasn't about attacking the Machine. Niobe said so herself. "They had us dead to rights" We're not here trying to make the first move against the Machine, but if we're threatened as in this case, we're not just going to compromise or give up our existence.

When the Machine sets it's institution of manipulation and population control aside, we'll be more than happy to talk about respect and cooperation.

Thats where people differ, killer. Some people do think it was a hostile act on zions part, they could of been planning a vast-massive scale attack, how can you be so sure? Some people are the opposite side of the spectrum, and believe it was to build 'more room' for zion. Though, if this is the case, like Vinia said.. why the secracy, why a free fall drop? Why, why, why? Like the fourtune teller says, we have to make our own minds up, and not believe everything everyone is telling us. Make the decision yourself, just make sure its the right one.

Why? Because at some point, in order for the human race to continue to exist, this measure of control that the Machine needs has to be lifted or nothing will change. The Cypherites and the continued presence of the Sentinel army are proof that it isn't going to change on the machine's behalf. I HAVE made the decision for myself, and I HAVE concluded that it's the right one. I wouldn't bother speaking on it if that wasn't the case.

I know that people think differently. This argument makes that apparent, however what people think and what is aren't always the same thing. The truth will be all there is in the end, and I wouldn't even be surprised if it defied all of our opinions in all honesty.

I could reply to point two but if you sift through the other communication channels, you'll find I've said my piece on that. More than enough times.

The second point is our stance, and I've seen your piece on the issue. You can reference my last statement about opinions.

spha x
(( Okay, time to sit back and see where this goes.. ))

hear me out.

Zion still needs to have machines running and working in order to survive in the caves.  Those machines have not been programmed for destruction or fighting or even knowing the difference between an ally and an enemy.  They perform a specific function and thats it.

Shutting down the Machines is possible without killing all the humans in the pods.  We wouldn't turn off every machine that is turned on just because its on the surface of the earth!  The machines that take care of the pods and harvest fields are not programmed to fight or know what an enemy is.  They are toasters that perform a function and thats it.

We would destroy all machines that know the difference between an enemy and an ally and take away control.  We would figure out a way to take control over the Matrix and keep it alive until all humans are given the choice of awakening.

-----------------------------------------   -------------------------------------------  --------------------------------  --------------------------------

To ZION, EPN will help you any way we can.  It is what Kid wants us to do, so we will do it.  You can call on us for anything, we are just a phone call away.  I cant speak for the other EPN Factions but you can rely on Insurgence for backup.

SO you advocate destroying Intelligent minds that can fight back, but keeping those that can't and using them as you see fit until they outlive their usefulness as slaves?

You are a prime example that Mankind has not evolved and does not respect all intelligent life, just it's own.

Oh and GamiSB you view of the future is noble and optimistic, but unless you can convince people like Hydrazine here it will only be a pipe dream. Also you say a world without rules, without boundries, quoting a man who was trying to explain to someone about the manipulation of a simulation, not the real world. A world needs rules and boundries, simulated or real. Without any there would be chaos, mankind would revert back to the days when they were killing millions of fellow humans in vast wars.

A world of cooperation, understanding, respect for life and law and order, a world where Machines and Man can negotiate with each other about everything without the need for betrayal and secrecy. This is true peace, this is our future. The Machines have offered it once, maybe it's time to show that the Human race has grown and offer it back....

SO you advocate destroying Intelligent minds that can fight back, but keeping those that can't and using them as you see fit until they outlive their usefulness as slaves?

Yes I do advocate destroying intelligent minds that can fight back.  Kill or be killed.  We will keep intelligent machines and use them for what they were already being used for.  They won't know the difference.  They will just keep doing what they have been doing for years because thats all they have been programmed to do.  And it's not slavery!  We aren't going to force a piece of machinery to do something other than what its been created for or not give it oil if it disobeys or something!

Double post

We will keep intelligent machines and use them for what they were already being used for.  They won't know the difference.

Hydrazine wrote:

We would destroy all machines that know the difference between an enemy and an ally and take away control.  We would figure out a way to take control over the Matrix and keep it alive until all humans are given the choice of awakening.

-----------------------------------------   -------------------------------------------  --------------------------------  --------------------------------

To ZION, EPN will help you any way we can.  It is what Kid wants us to do, so we will do it.  You can call on us for anything, we are just a phone call away.  I cant speak for the other EPN Factions but you can rely on Insurgence for backup.

SO you advocate destroying Intelligent minds that can fight back, but keeping those that can't and using them as you see fit until they outlive their usefulness as slaves?

These redpills would wipe out another intelligent species...I would call them animals, but that would be an insult to the animals.  'Sociopathic' would be a better description of them.  But at least Hydrazine has confirmed what the Kid wants them to do, unless they try to spin that again too.

Illyria

These redpills would wipe out another intelligent species...I would call them animals, but that would be an insult to the animals.  'Sociopathic' would be a better description of them.  But at least Hydrazine has confirmed what the Kid wants them to do, unless they try to spin that again too.

Illyria

Keep talking.

We're here to fight, not debate.

When you're ready to do that, feel free to stop hyperjumping.  Because until then...  you're all mouth.  And that goes for all of you.

hear me out.

Zion still needs to have machines running and working in order to survive in the caves.  Those machines have not been programmed for destruction or fighting or even knowing the difference between an ally and an enemy.  They perform a specific function and thats it.

Shutting down the Machines is possible without killing all the humans in the pods.  We wouldn't turn off every machine that is turned on just because its on the surface of the earth!  The machines that take care of the pods and harvest fields are not programmed to fight or know what an enemy is.  They are toasters that perform a function and thats it.

We would destroy all machines that know the difference between an enemy and an ally and take away control.  We would figure out a way to take control over the Matrix and keep it alive until all humans are given the choice of awakening.

-----------------------------------------   -------------------------------------------  --------------------------------  --------------------------------

To ZION, EPN will help you any way we can.  It is what Kid wants us to do, so we will do it.  You can call on us for anything, we are just a phone call away.  I cant speak for the other EPN Factions but you can rely on Insurgence for backup.

Keep talking.

We're here to fight, not debate.

When you're ready to do that, feel free to stop hyperjumping.  Because until then...  you're all mouth.  And that goes for all of you.

Keep talking.

We're here to fight, not debate.

When you're ready to do that, feel free to stop hyperjumping.  Because until then...  you're all mouth.  And that goes for all of you.

Phrack wrote:

Keep talking.

We're here to fight, not debate.

When you're ready to do that, feel free to stop hyperjumping.  Because until then...  you're all mouth.  And that goes for all of you.

My darling ones, you are under the blissful misapprehension that this fight will be in the Matrix. But this fight will be in the real world, where your ships will be destroyed one by one and your people eliminated. Your amusing stance of defiance by flagging within the simulation is meaningless.

I think the point is that the Machines *are* going to send their armies.  Take a look at Agent Gray's speech to the Machinists on Syntax.

Illyria 

War on the Machines is genocide you say?  What about six previous times the Machines slaughtered nearly every man, woman, and child in Zion?  Was not that genocide?

Now I'm not advocating more of the same.  In fact, I would say we should show our attackers mercy that they have not shown us, if that option is available to us.  I wouldn't say we're out to kill all Machines.  I think that's a misinterpretation.  But we are going to fight and kill all those that would kill us, or enslave us, because this is a war, and that's what war calls for.  It's unfortunate, but it's the truth.  We will use any means necissary to free humanity from its mental chains.  And if Machines wish to be Enlightened as well, let them join in our fight for ultimate freedom ((As in Matriculated)), for awakening to the infinity of potential that unfolds before us in this very moment.  Free your mind, and anything is possible.  The world must not remain as it is today.  We can bring it to it's highest brilliance if we are granted the abbility to choose our paths for ourselves, without the limits of Machine control.

EPN want to destroy the System and they are willing to accept Machine civilization, Zion, and the Blue-pills as acceptable collateral damage.

I think the point is that the Machines *are* going to send their armies.  Take a look at Agent Gray's speech to the Machinists on Syntax.

Illyria 

Blackleaf wrote:

EPN want to destroy the System and they are willing to accept Machine civilization, Zion, and the Blue-pills as acceptable collateral damage.

Did you actually read the OP?

Blackleaf wrote:

EPN want to destroy the System and they are willing to accept Machine civilization, Zion, and the Blue-pills as acceptable collateral damage.

Did you actually read the OP?

The information taken let's me safely assume that action will only be taken to subdue Zion and New Zion, not destroy them. As Gray said, action will only be taken to disable enemy HoverCrafts that are hostile. Since it's an Agent talking, it's also save to assume that what he said is what he meant. Thus the destruction of enemy HoverCrafts is at this point not an option (self-defense exluded, but who can confirm out there what was self-defense and what not? Cypherites need not apply). Neither is the destruction of both human cities.

Is this a hint of fear that I'm seeing, at the possibility of a Machine strike on Zion or New Zion?  Or is it denial?

Illyria

GoDGiVeR wrote:

The information taken let's me safely assume that action will only be taken to subdue Zion and New Zion, not destroy them. As Gray said, action will only be taken to disable enemy HoverCrafts that are hostile. Since it's an Agent talking, it's also save to assume that what he said is what he meant. Thus the destruction of enemy HoverCrafts is at this point not an option (self-defense exluded, but who can confirm out there what was self-defense and what not? Cypherites need not apply). Neither is the destruction of both human cities.

Is this a hint of fear that I'm seeing, at the possibility of a Machine strike on Zion or New Zion?  Or is it denial?

Illyria

Genocide –noun

The deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.


Since the the plan was not to exterminate the group then technically no. The whole idea was that Zion continued but nobody would realize the Matrix had been reset. Though I agree it's pretty much borderline. Not so clear cut as the attempted genocide of the Machine civilization during the second renaissance, the plan there was genuine genocide.


You seem to see attackers everywhere, please, show me these Machines who seek to kill or enslave you. Elaborate on these mental chains (I assume you mean those who choose to remain in the simulation).

Sadly the rest of your post degenerates into nigh-religious zealotry. Enlightenment, ultimate freedom, infinity of potential, downright clap-trap. Who are you to quantify and define such things? Freedom is choice, which is what people had until Zion went and messed things up. "Free your mind" it's rubbish, was Cypher free? What of the others who wish they'd never been awoken, what of the millions (possibly billions) of people who choose, albeit on a subconscious level, not to reject the Matrix.

It boils down to a one key point.

EPN want to destroy the System and they are willing to accept Machine civilization, Zion, and the Blue-pills as acceptable collateral damage.
That is the price they are willing to pay to escape a jail that isn't there. If that is not madness what is.

((In before Spartaaa))

Enlightenment is religious, but it is not zealotry.  Freeing onself from the Matrix is a right of passage the represents a freedom from suffering and idenfitication with finite concepts.  There is no such thing as a being who doesn't want freedom from suffering, or union with the ultimate nondual nature of reality, there are merely those who are hopelessly trapped in contractions from their own devine light.  It is my hope that in the near future, Zion will not be a revolution, but a relgion.  As a wise man once said: revolutions divide; religions unite.

And who am I to quantify this?

I am merely an agent of Enlightenment.  A humble bodhisattva, dedicated to the Enlightenment of all sentient beings.  I beleive this is the central goal of all human endeavors (and humanity is not a mere biological distinction), but some get lost along the way.  And truthfully, we're all a little lost, but it is my beleif that EPN happens to be the least lost in these events that have unfolded thus far.  Though I suppose only time will tell.

Enlightenment is religious, but it is not zealotry.  Freeing onself from the Matrix is a right of passage the represents a freedom from suffering and idenfitication with finite concepts.  There is no such thing as a being who doesn't want freedom from suffering, or union with the ultimate nondual nature of reality, there are merely those who are hopelessly trapped in contractions from their own devine light.  It is my hope that in the near future, Zion will not be a revolution, but a relgion.  As a wise man once said: revolutions divide; religions unite.

And who am I to quantify this?

I am merely an agent of Enlightenment.  A humble bodhisattva, dedicated to the Enlightenment of all sentient beings.  I beleive this is the central goal of all human endeavors (and humanity is not a mere biological distinction), but some get lost along the way.  And truthfully, we're all a little lost, but it is my beleif that EPN happens to be the least lost in these events that have unfolded thus far.  Though I suppose only time will tell.

It is people who cannot see past their own race that are truly lost.

Croesus wrote:

It is people who cannot see past their own race that are truly lost.

Same goes for those who cannot see beyond the Machines.

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:

It is people who cannot see past their own race that are truly lost.

Same goes for those who cannot see beyond the Machines.

Indeed, but I have not seen anyone post here saying that we should eradicate the entire Human race. This is because the Machines need Humankind, wiping them out totally would be self defeating. A Machinist is someone who understands that we need to work with the Machines for the prosperity of both species, and to protect the Simulation, protect the Human's who mind's depend on it to survive. From what I can understand the Machines are waiting for the time when Humankind can be trusted, when they evolve past prejudice and hate then Hopefully one day, in cooperation, Man and Machinekind can work together to right the wrongs of our ancestors, clear the skies, and live together.

Signs wrote:

Enlightenment is religious, but it is not zealotry.  Freeing onself from the Matrix is a right of passage the represents a freedom from suffering and idenfitication with finite concepts.  There is no such thing as a being who doesn't want freedom from suffering, or union with the ultimate nondual nature of reality, there are merely those who are hopelessly trapped in contractions from their own devine light.  It is my hope that in the near future, Zion will not be a revolution, but a relgion.  As a wise man once said: revolutions divide; religions unite.

And who am I to quantify this?

I am merely an agent of Enlightenment.  A humble bodhisattva, dedicated to the Enlightenment of all sentient beings.  I beleive this is the central goal of all human endeavors (and humanity is not a mere biological distinction), but some get lost along the way.  And truthfully, we're all a little lost, but it is my beleif that EPN happens to be the least lost in these events that have unfolded thus far.  Though I suppose only time will tell.

The majority of Bluepills are living their lives as our ancestors had, they all have opportunities for success and failure. They have no idea what the world is like outside, I am sure many would prefer their lives inside the simulation, where they feel comfortable and safe.

They have a choice, from the start until the end of their lives to accept what they see or not. It is a choice of theirs and theirs alone, it should not be interfered with by anyone else whether it is through direct action, forcing them to see the true nature of the world, a nightmare in most cases compared with what they know, or indirect, preaching of a new religion, a religion that is not born of people inside, but from the outside where it's motives can be questioned.

It is well documented that most conflicts in our ancestors history came down to religion, so yes religions unite but unite only those who believe in the same religion, against others who do not believe in it. The only bluepills who would believe in such a religion would be the ones who reject the Simulation anyway. Many of the world most dangerous dictators and leaders have said that they did what they did for the enlightenment of the race...

You say that the EPN are the least lost.. Mankind's future lies with the Machines in one way or the other. There are many in the EPN who want to destroy the Machines, shut them down. The Human race as a whole cannot survive without Machines and vis versa. Destroying one means destroying the other. It is people who cannot see past their own race that are truly lost.

Religions once started wars, but religion has evolved since then.  The exoteric religions may bring war and zealotry, but the esoteric religions hold our only hope for Enlightenment.   Exoteric religions simply recognize reality's central nature as it arises, or Enlightenment.  What good is living without external conflict, under the Machines' sense of order and control, if Enlightenment is forbidden.  It is true that under the Truce we were allowed to free people in small numbers, but this was merely the previous phase of Enlightenment.  Enlightenment, like everything, evolves.  Progress must be made.  The fact remains that the Machines would not, and still will not, return the body of The One, or give as any answers as to what truely happened to him, so that we may further explore our own reality as it arises, with the answers that Neo continues to provide, even in death.  Furthermore, the Matrix itself is a place where they allow nothing to actually happen.  No major event can take place, because that would wake up masses.  But the nature of humanity is full of a desire to create major events, massive landmarks through an existence that is ultimately fleeting.  If the bluepill's "choice" to remain in their pods is so fragile, is it really a choice at all?

And also, as the dictators you speak of, if they produced truly harmful results, they were not working for the cause of true Enlightenment.  However, also remember, that long ago, there were those ironically called Enlightened Despots, and many of them layed the institutional foundation for the democracy you seem to so enjoy.  This is not quite the Enlightenment I am speaking of, but I just thought I'd point it out.

Croesus wrote:

Signs wrote:

Enlightenment is religious, but it is not zealotry.  Freeing onself from the Matrix is a right of passage the represents a freedom from suffering and idenfitication with finite concepts.  There is no such thing as a being who doesn't want freedom from suffering, or union with the ultimate nondual nature of reality, there are merely those who are hopelessly trapped in contractions from their own devine light.  It is my hope that in the near future, Zion will not be a revolution, but a relgion.  As a wise man once said: revolutions divide; religions unite.

And who am I to quantify this?

I am merely an agent of Enlightenment.  A humble bodhisattva, dedicated to the Enlightenment of all sentient beings.  I beleive this is the central goal of all human endeavors (and humanity is not a mere biological distinction), but some get lost along the way.  And truthfully, we're all a little lost, but it is my beleif that EPN happens to be the least lost in these events that have unfolded thus far.  Though I suppose only time will tell.

The majority of Bluepills are living their lives as our ancestors had, they all have opportunities for success and failure. They have no idea what the world is like outside, I am sure many would prefer their lives inside the simulation, where they feel comfortable and safe.

They have a choice, from the start until the end of their lives to accept what they see or not. It is a choice of theirs and theirs alone, it should not be interfered with by anyone else whether it is through direct action, forcing them to see the true nature of the world, a nightmare in most cases compared with what they know, or indirect, preaching of a new religion, a religion that is not born of people inside, but from the outside where it's motives can be questioned.

It is well documented that most conflicts in our ancestors history came down to religion, so yes religions unite but unite only those who believe in the same religion, against others who do not believe in it. The only bluepills who would believe in such a religion would be the ones who reject the Simulation anyway. Many of the world most dangerous dictators and leaders have said that they did what they did for the enlightenment of the race...

You say that the EPN are the least lost.. Mankind's future lies with the Machines in one way or the other. There are many in the EPN who want to destroy the Machines, shut them down. The Human race as a whole cannot survive without Machines and vis versa. Destroying one means destroying the other. It is people who cannot see past their own race that are truly lost.

Religions once started wars, but religion has evolved since then.  The exoteric religions may bring war and zealotry, but the esoteric religions hold our only hope for Enlightenment.   Exoteric religions simply recognize reality's central nature as it arises, or Enlightenment.  What good is living without external conflict, under the Machines' sense of order and control, if Enlightenment is forbidden.  It is true that under the Truce we were allowed to free people in small numbers, but this was merely the previous phase of Enlightenment.  Enlightenment, like everything, evolves.  Progress must be made.  The fact remains that the Machines would not, and still will not, return the body of The One, or give as any answers as to what truely happened to him, so that we may further explore our own reality as it arises, with the answers that Neo continues to provide, even in death.  Furthermore, the Matrix itself is a place where they allow nothing to actually happen.  No major event can take place, because that would wake up masses.  But the nature of humanity is full of a desire to create major events, massive landmarks through an existence that is ultimately fleeting.  If the bluepill's "choice" to remain in their pods is so fragile, is it really a choice at all?

And also, as the dictators you speak of, if they produced truly harmful results, they were not working for the cause of true Enlightenment.  However, also remember, that long ago, there were those ironically called Enlightened Despots, and many of them layed the institutional foundation for the democracy you seem to so enjoy.  This is not quite the Enlightenment I am speaking of, but I just thought I'd point it out.

Religions once started wars, but religion has evolved since then.  The exoteric religions may bring war and zealotry, but the esoteric religions hold our only hope for Enlightenment.   Exoteric religions simply recognize reality's central nature as it arises, or Enlightenment.  What good is living without external conflict, under the Machines' sense of order and control, if Enlightenment is forbidden.  It is true that under the Truce we were allowed to free people in small numbers, but this was merely the previous phase of Enlightenment.  Enlightenment, like everything, evolves.  Progress must be made.  The fact remains that the Machines would not, and still will not, return the body of The One, or give as any answers as to what truely happened to him, so that we may further explore our own reality as it arises, with the answers that Neo continues to provide, even in death.  Furthermore, the Matrix itself is a place where they allow nothing to actually happen.  No major event can take place, because that would wake up masses.  But the nature of humanity is full of a desire to create major events, massive landmarks through an existence that is ultimately fleeting.  If the bluepill's "choice" to remain in their pods is so fragile, is it really a choice at all?

And also, as the dictators you speak of, if they produced truly harmful results, they were not working for the cause of true Enlightenment.  However, also remember, that long ago, there were those ironically called Enlightened Despots, and many of them layed the institutional foundation for the democracy you seem to so enjoy.  This is not quite the Enlightenment I am speaking of, but I just thought I'd point it out.