[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07

106 posts · 2007-07-17 10:29:51 to 2007-07-26 15:47:51

#36300288835 07/22/2007 07:16:56 [8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07
Blackleaf wrote:
Signs wrote:

Religions once started wars, but religion has evolved since then.  The exoteric religions may bring war and zealotry, but the esoteric religions hold our only hope for Enlightenment.   Exoteric religions simply recognize reality's central nature as it arises, or Enlightenment.  What good is living without external conflict, under the Machines' sense of order and control, if Enlightenment is forbidden.  It is true that under the Truce we were allowed to free people in small numbers, but this was merely the previous phase of Enlightenment.  Enlightenment, like everything, evolves.  Progress must be made.  The fact remains that the Machines would not, and still will not, return the body of The One, or give as any answers as to what truely happened to him, so that we may further explore our own reality as it arises, with the answers that Neo continues to provide, even in death.  Furthermore, the Matrix itself is a place where they allow nothing to actually happen.  No major event can take place, because that would wake up masses.  But the nature of humanity is full of a desire to create major events, massive landmarks through an existence that is ultimately fleeting.  If the bluepill's "choice" to remain in their pods is so fragile, is it really a choice at all?

And also, as the dictators you speak of, if they produced truly harmful results, they were not working for the cause of true Enlightenment.  However, also remember, that long ago, there were those ironically called Enlightened Despots, and many of them layed the institutional foundation for the democracy you seem to so enjoy.  This is not quite the Enlightenment I am speaking of, but I just thought I'd point it out.


Exactly when did religion evolve?  Zion was constantly getting wiped out not too long ago and in the Matrix it is always 1999.

As for the body of the One, he's as much their savior as your if you wish to see it in a religious light.  He was a part of the System, he was part program as well as part man.  He is also the only know anti-virus for defeating a full breakout of the Smith virus... what do you want an autopsy and burial or a possible return to the Matrix?

You next point is correct, very little happens in the lives of the blue-pills but it is NOT the nature of humanity to strive for greatness, it may be the nature of say 1% or so of the population but the rest are quite content to live quiet, routine, peaceful lives.  Yes, this peace is fragile, but it is what they choose, would you rather they were forced into a world of torn woolen sweaters, protein goop, and cold war?  They may be living in denial but as has been said ignorance is bliss and they should be allowed to live that way if that is what they choose.

Democracy... where?  I certainly enjoy no democracy, I receive my orders, follow them, and do pretty much whatever I want the rest of the time provided it doesn't disrupt the System.  Does Zion run on a democracy?  Is the council so elected?  I don't recall ever getting the chance to vote when i was in Zion.

The Enlightenment you seek seems to be the realization of the self.  "Know thyself" As the Oracle would put it.  This philosophy is not for everyone, some people are quite happy not knowing, failure to realize this is or ignoring their view is zealotry. 
Any of the great minds of the esoteric religions would tell you also that Enlightenment of the self requires no external change, no evangelism, you do not need to save the world to save yourself in fact such efforts are quite contrary to inner peace, acceptance, and the efforts to enhance spiritual wellbeing of the self and those around you.  One is only expected to live as they feel is right, to follow their path, not to force others to it.  That is the true nature of knowing yourself, knowing your path is different from others, what is right for one person is not bey extension right for all.

Of course these same minds would have been quick to tell you that their philosophies were not religions.

Now until you formalize code, dogma, ritual, mythology, etc could you please stop referring to your philosophy as a religion.



A religion is not necissarily a set of myths or dogmas, there are different levels of religion, and not all great spiritual teachers were against religion, as you seem to suggest.  Religion is merely institutionalized spirituality, and spirituality is a line of development that involve's a person's understanding of the ultimate.

And I suppose "Know Thyself" would apply to the Enlightenment I speak of, but that is only if the "Self" in this instance is the infinite Self, where there is no distinction from one phenomenon to the other, and even to call it "infinite" cannot even begin to describe it.  This is not merely an abstract philosophy, but an actual experiential reality.

Those who truely experience this, and are responsible, require not just "inner peace" from their lives, but action.  I belong to EPN because the action I beleive supports the nondual infinity of experience is waking up as many people as possible, regaurdless of the Machines' grasping, contracting desire for control.  If this causes a war, so be it, I think it has been a war all along.

People will be givin a choice, of course, as always.  To choose the red pill or the blue pill.  To choose a side.  But I beleive these choices are so important that they must be made explicitly, not by default.

Also, the democratic comment was in refrence to the comment of someone responding "democratically".  I wasn't saying you were in a democracy, but you seemed to be idealizing democracy, maybe I was wrong there.  Ignore the democracy comment if that'st he case.

#36300289045 07/22/2007 16:12:36 Re:[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07
The fact is people can't make the decision in their own best interests until it has already been made.  The vast majority would choose truth and the red-pill only to regret it for the rest of their lives.  The majority of people dependent on the System.  In the Real they simply would not cope.  Their sub-conscious knows more than their conscious mind ever should.

How many Cypherites are you going to create by waking those who deep down do not desire it?
Do you think they will all thank you for forcing them into a reality they would rather not accept?

There is no trial period, theres no try before you buy, once your out your out for good, your old life, your home, your comforts, your security, knowing you'll live to see tomorrow, all of that is gone.  But you dangle the word "truth" in front of them and succulent bait it is indeed leading many to make the wrong choice for themselves.  Already we have a sizable faction of people from the 1% deemed ready for awakening who would rather be asleep, that number would escalate into the millions if every single person was presented with the choice.

If you wish to argue choice what of those born into lives of despair and poverty in Zion? The "freeborn" never have the option of remaining in the Matrix, they remain ever slaves to Zion, trapped in a prison they can all too easily see, touch, and smell.  They lack even the temporary escape of jacking into the Matrix or even a construct.

Finally: we differ on our definition of religion but such arguments are generally circular, I shall leave the matter, refer to your "institution" however you wish. Of course I assume you see the irony of a philosophy that encompasses all of reality as a universal whole and thus part of the self and then seperates itself from that by classing itself as institutionalized religion.
#36300289277 07/23/2007 04:00:36 Re:[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07

By definition the Machines have proven incapable of managing a stable Matrix, no matter how earnest or honest they are in intent its an impossible ambition. Machines as created by man lack the imagination to acknowledge evolution, in fact they hunt it down and kill it as it lies beyond their comprehension..... trusting to such limited and inflexible beings will only result in the eventual extinction of both machine and man, of that we can be assured.

Zion relies on revolution, it is blinkered by its own out of control emotions, understanding consistently takes second place to knee jerk reaction. Fear and anger feature way too significantly in their kind.

The redpill is more than just an awareness of the truth, it unlocks humanity's path to the next evolutionary step, the exile is not the redundant machine but their next evolutionary step. Man and machine are the future together and without either the other will undoubtably die.............. If there is a war coming it will be fought by and be death of those too limited or undeserving to acknowledge and embrace evolution, just desserts will taste quite delicious lol.

#36300290145 07/24/2007 07:09:29 [8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07
The Machines ran a perfectly stable Matrix over several runs until the Oracle and the One put an end to it. As for evolution, are you telling me the Machines of today are no more advanced than B1GG3R? They have grown physically, mentaly and emotionally. If they were inflexible Exile would not be an option.

What will happed to he Exiles should EPN succeed in shutting down the System? If the Machines actually (through some unforeseen possibility) lose the war against Zion?

I won't deny that there are lessons to be learned by both Man and Machine from select Exiles. However since so many of them can become disruptive they have no place in Machine society in the Real. Exiles are exiled to keep them from harming Machine civilization. Provided they find new purpose or simply do not disrupt the System they are left in peace within the Matrix. A great many programs take comfort in knowing that when they eventually become out-dated they can end their lives with dignity or choose to retire to the Matrix.
#36300290193 07/24/2007 08:42:10 [8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07
Blackleaf wrote:
The Machines ran a perfectly stable Matrix over several runs until the Oracle and the One put an end to it. As for evolution, are you telling me the Machines of today are no more advanced than B1GG3R? They have grown physically, mentaly and emotionally. If they were inflexible Exile would not be an option.


It is exactly that inflexibility that makes Exiles possible. Agent Pace nearly had gone Exile herself, if she hadn't been forced to be ... repaired to her efficient old self.

Blackleaf wrote:
What will happed to he Exiles should EPN succeed in shutting down the System? If the Machines actually (through some unforeseen possibility) lose the war against Zion?

I, for one part, will look that that will never happen, even if EPN are still to some part Zionites. Mass murder, for whatever the reason, is still inexcusable.

Blackleaf wrote:
I won't deny that there are lessons to be learned by both Man and Machine from select Exiles. However since so many of them can become disruptive they have no place in Machine society in the Real. Exiles are exiled to keep them from harming Machine civilization. Provided they find new purpose or simply do not disrupt the System they are left in peace within the Matrix. A great many programs take comfort in knowing that when they eventually become out-dated they can end their lives with dignity or choose to retire to the Matrix.
In the Matrix, there are not 3, but only two different types of sentient beings. Machines and Exiles. Redpills in the Matrix are nothing else than Exiles. In the end, though, nobody is anything else than a program in a different shell.
Humans have always been disruptive to the Machines and they are still a very important part of Machine society. And so should be Exiles.


#36300292146 07/26/2007 15:47:51 Re:[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07
I am pleased the machines finally recognise our usefulness.