[8.1.1] The Machines have stopped pretending - Vector - 7/13/07

Everyone,

Now that Zion's in this thing too, there are new dangers, but also new chances for victory. If we play our cards right, we can end this war once and for all.

Michael

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

Odd I thought Kid was a idioctic terrorsit leader that didn't give a *CENSORED* about anyone but EPN. At least that's what Machinest tell me.

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

Odd I thought Kid was a idioctic terrorsit leader that didn't give a *CENSORED* about anyone but EPN. At least that's what Machinest tell me.

"We know what we have to do: shut the Machines down.  That's the only way to be sure."

So what you're saying is that you want to wipe out the Machine race?  Just like our ancestors tried to do? 

All I can say -- aside from that your willingness to commit genocide sickens me -- is that I'm glad you've stopped pretending too.  Now your true agenda is here for everyone to see...unless, of course, you're going to use the excuse I've been hearing so much of lately: that your words were 'taken out of context'.

Illyria

"We know what we have to do: shut the Machines down.  That's the only way to be sure."

So what you're saying is that you want to wipe out the Machine race?  Just like our ancestors tried to do? 

All I can say -- aside from that your willingness to commit genocide sickens me -- is that I'm glad you've stopped pretending too.  Now your true agenda is here for everyone to see...unless, of course, you're going to use the excuse I've been hearing so much of lately: that your words were 'taken out of context'.

Illyria

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

Stop doesn't mean destory or kill now does it? Please try and look past the blindfolds the Machines have on you. They only make you look all the more ignorant.

He said 'shut them down', not 'stop them'. 

And the genocide I was speaking of refers to the Machine race, not the bluepills...who, incidentally, will probably all die if the Machines and the Matrix are 'shut down'.

Illyria

He said 'shut them down', not 'stop them'. 

And the genocide I was speaking of refers to the Machine race, not the bluepills...who, incidentally, will probably all die if the Machines and the Matrix are 'shut down'.

Illyria

And again

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

If it's going to kill millions then we aint gonna do it. We are all well aware of the fact that the blues are dependent on the Matrix/Machie. There's more then just one way to shut down a system.

Nah screw it, I'm pretty sure all your going to do is cover your ears and scream "nanananana I cant hear you!" when the truth bashes your face in.

Nah screw it, I'm pretty sure all your going to do is cover your ears and scream "nanananana I cant hear you!" when the truth bashes your face in.

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

The idea is to look for a different way, and just because the machinists haven't thought of a way to straighten this without controlling Zion, doesn't mean that there isn't a way to do so without forcing everybody out. Just because you don't see a solution, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This isn't about a "handful of militant fanatics" anymore. All Zionite opts in the Matrix are "dealt with" the same way, EPN or not. At this point, we know the Machine doesn't trust us, and we don't trust them. That's apparent. This isn't something new, it's just been brought out in the open. A bunch of rhetoric and talking about it isn't going to change anything. You mechs got your order 66, so bring it. Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

*gives Ezek some dap*

Exactly, talk does *poop*. We know where each other stands and we know what our leader's words mean. What you make of it means about as much as what you had for breakfast to me so haveing to listen or argue with you at this point is well pointless.

Oh the memories..... it was like i was there... the whole time.

Pyraci wrote:

The idea is to look for a different way, and just because the machinists haven't thought of a way to straighten this without controlling Zion, doesn't mean that there isn't a way to do so without forcing everybody out. Just because you don't see a solution, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

This isn't about a "handful of militant fanatics" anymore. All Zionite opts in the Matrix are "dealt with" the same way, EPN or not. At this point, we know the Machine doesn't trust us, and we don't trust them. That's apparent. This isn't something new, it's just been brought out in the open. A bunch of rhetoric and talking about it isn't going to change anything. You mechs got your order 66, so bring it. Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

My focus in on Michael's willingness to destroy the machine race and his willingness to let the bluepills die if need be.  I'm not sure how this response relates to mine in any way shape or form.

Nah I got this, man.

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

GamiSB wrote:

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

That ends the discussion about them wanting to kill the blues still in the system. The official stance is against it. If you don't believe me (because Zion and everybody in it is inherently a liar, apparently), you can go back to the first page and check the screenshot yourself.

This isn't about a "handful of militant fanatics" anymore. All Zionite opts in the Matrix are "dealt with" the same way, EPN or not. At this point, we know the Machine doesn't trust us, and we don't trust them. That's apparent. This isn't something new, it's just been brought out in the open. A bunch of rhetoric and talking about it isn't going to change anything. You mechs got your order 66, so bring it. Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Pyraci wrote:

Nah I got this, man.

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

GamiSB wrote:

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

That ends the discussion about them wanting to kill the blues still in the system. The official stance is against it. If you don't believe me (because Zion and everybody in it is inherently a liar, apparently), you can go back to the first page and check the screenshot yourself.

This isn't about a "handful of militant fanatics" anymore. All Zionite opts in the Matrix are "dealt with" the same way, EPN or not. At this point, we know the Machine doesn't trust us, and we don't trust them. That's apparent. This isn't something new, it's just been brought out in the open. A bunch of rhetoric and talking about it isn't going to change anything. You mechs got your order 66, so bring it. Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

I did see Popper saying;
"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way"

But again, how many would he sacrifice if all that stood between defeat and victory were bluepills?
1?... 10?... 100?... 1000?... 10,000?...... How many is acceptable for victory?

It seems as the most effective way of commiting the genocide of Machinekind is to take away their power source, but as the bluepills are dependant on the system, they'd either have to be woken up or killed. Now there is no way to house that many bluepills, many of them will most likely starve....

Can you really say that Popper, that you, that EPN, wouldn't sacrifice the life of just one innocent bluepill to defeat the Machines? Or does he mean that millions is unacceptable, thousands is ok?

Have you also thought that life is not restricted to Flesh and blood? Programs and Machines written and built for duties other than war, innocent of any decisions made by Machine hierarchy? Do these intelligent lives mean nothing to you?

Does Popper mean that if these lives can be spared he will spare them?

1. Michael already dismissed the Matrix as being the weak spot.
2. We have never wanted to kill blues for any reason what so ever.
3. We are well aware of the fact that killing the Machines would kill blues.
4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.
5. He saved us he saved them he saved the Matrix. <-- Core piece of EPN doctrine.

Pyraci wrote:

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Machinists want things to be worked out and dealt with differantly, instead of pointing the gun. You zions act like your the innocent, yet here you are advocating war with a gun in your hand, WANTING A WAR?  No wonder there's an army of sentiant programs coming to kill you all!  Enjoy your time whilst you can, terrorists.

As for you, ezec.. it may be sooner than you think. I've been acheing for the thrill of a kill. 

spha x

Pyraci wrote:

Lucen wrote:

So, what we have here is EPN not only desiring the genocide of the machine race, but also being more than willing to let the billions (not millions) of bluepills still jacked die, should they not find a way to shut down the system without either waking them up or finding another way to sustain them.

You want to kill billions of sentient machines, and are willing to kill billions of human lives for a handful of militant fanatics?  And people wonder why the machines don't trust us?

I'll feel badly about putting down Zionites who value machine life but don't really know who else to fight along side... but I won't feel even a twinge of regret about stomping people like this.

Pointing a bunch of fingers and crying about it isn't going to stop a war. Plain and simple.

- Ezechiel

Machinists want things to be worked out and dealt with differantly, instead of pointing the gun. You zions act like your the innocent, yet here you are advocating war with a gun in your hand, WANTING A WAR?  No wonder there's an army of sentiant programs coming to kill you all!  Enjoy your time whilst you can, terrorists.

As for you, ezec.. it may be sooner than you think. I've been acheing for the thrill of a kill. 

spha x

1. Michael already dismissed the Matrix as being the weak spot.
2. We have never wanted to kill blues for any reason what so ever.
3. We are well aware of the fact that killing the Machines would kill blues.
4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.
5. He saved us he saved them he saved the Matrix. <-- Core piece of EPN doctrine.

Were EPN, not Zion.

Funny. From how Michael opened his report it seems he considers you all one and the same now. It's even almost like what he was aiming for all along by his statement and demeanor.

Hmmm......

Michael is a fool, he will find no allies within Zion.

The idea is to look for a different way, and just because the machinists haven't thought of a way to straighten this without controlling Zion

It's not our job to straighten this out. 

Let me repeat that for anyone who still doesn't get it: it is not the Machinists' job to straighten this out. 

Zion got itself into this, Zion will have to get itself out.  Stand up and take responsibility -- don't go running to the Machinists asking us to intercede with the Machines on your behalf!  If Zion really wants to work things out, then *Zion* needs to approach the Machines.

Illyria 

4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.

"I'm not going to advocate any plan that results in millions of deaths--not if there's any other way" ~ Kid

Odd I thought Kid was a idioctic terrorsit leader that didn't give a *CENSORED* about anyone but EPN. At least that's what Machinest tell me.

Yes Gamis, the real point is to listen to what organization leaders say and not what war lusting Machinists say.

EPN wants to take it to the Machines while Zion wants to ensure its own safety which is essential for the futrue of all humanity. There is a measure of sanity in the Kid's mind despite his radical operatives who have a hard time listening to their leader.

The Machines created Zion and this war. Zion has never done anything but try to end this war while the Machines have done everything to provoke Zion into a war Zion doesn't want. If this is somehow a test to see if humanity is ready for peace, it is the Machinists who fail utterly for embracing every opportunity to wage war against their own kind.

The Collective leads the bliind rage for war front and has absolutely no credibility  in representing humanity. During the Truce they refused every gesture by Zionites to work together towards peace while making every effort to foment hostility and now that the Machines have tossed the Truce aside they are the loudest voices crying for their right to wage war against their own kind.

There is no threat to the Machines from a defensive Zion. Don't attack Zion and Machines won't be hurt. Try to send the sentinals against Zion and there will be massive slaughter dwarfing the defeat the Machines suffered in their initial failed attack against Stalingrad.

Machinists don't even know what they are fighting for. There is nothing about Zion to protect the Machines from. There's no rational way to conclude from any of this that if Machinists ddin't attack Zionites, the Machines would somehow fall.

Simply put, any Machinist who attacks Zion is a failure in the effort for peace and a traitor to humanity who will be dealt with as such.

Funny, I do not recall us Councilmembers sitting down together and saying that we are going to reject any offers for peace with zionites.  In fact I recall the exact opposite.  Yes I was there because I am a Councilmember and leader of TC.

The Kid said straight out that he will kill millions of people if there is not another way.  It is his last resort, but he will still do it.  He wants his plans to succeed one way or another.

Funny, I do not recall us Councilmembers sitting down together and saying that we are going to reject any offers for peace with zionites.  In fact I recall the exact opposite.  Yes I was there because I am a Councilmember and leader of TC.

The Kid said straight out that he will kill millions of people if there is not another way.  It is his last resort, but he will still do it.  He wants his plans to succeed one way or another.

Pyraci wrote:

The idea is to look for a different way, and just because the machinists haven't thought of a way to straighten this without controlling Zion

It's not our job to straighten this out. 

Let me repeat that for anyone who still doesn't get it: it is not the Machinists' job to straighten this out. 

Zion got itself into this, Zion will have to get itself out.  Stand up and take responsibility -- don't go running to the Machinists asking us to intercede with the Machines on your behalf!  If Zion really wants to work things out, then *Zion* needs to approach the Machines.

Illyria 

The idea is to look for a different way, and just because the machinists haven't thought of a way to straighten this without controlling Zion, doesn't mean that there isn't a way to do so without forcing everybody out. Just because you don't see a solution, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The Machines created Zion and this war. Zion has never done anything but try to end this war while the Machines have done everything to provoke Zion into a war Zion doesn't want. If this is somehow a test to see if humanity is ready for peace, it is the Machinists who fail utterly for embracing every opportunity to wage war against their own kind.

The Machine may have created Zion as a place to house the percentage who reject the system, but it is Humanity who started this long drawn out war.... By declaring war on the Machines. It was the Machines who wanted peace, they even went to the United Nations for it..... In any case, If Zion didn't want a war, why violate the agreement and build a fortified base? Oh yes Zion has tried to end the war in the past but only by way of genocide of Machinekind.

There is no threat to the Machines from a defensive Zion. Don't attack Zion and Machines won't be hurt. Try to send the sentinals against Zion and there will be massive slaughter dwarfing the defeat the Machines suffered in their initial failed attack against Stalingrad.

Don't be too sure of this fortified base you have constructed, nothing is impervious can new zion supply the power to keep recharging it's emp's over a prolonged result, possibly, but at the cost of losing life support down there. Besides New Zion is a Violation of the agreement between Zion and The Machines, being able to attack then retreat to relative safety...

Machinists don't even know what they are fighting for. There is nothing about Zion to protect the Machines from. There's no rational way to conclude from any of this that if Machinists ddin't attack Zionites, the Machines would somehow fall.

We are very clear about what we are fighting for. We fight for all of the intelligent life that depends on the system, Human, Program and Machine alike. Zion has had two years of relative peace from the Machines and what did they do instead of trying to build a proper relationship with the Machines? They created more ships, built more arms, created a fortified base, and who knows what other weapons... One thing that Humans are good at is conflict and designing more and more destructive weaponry. The Machines, although could devastate Zion if they so deemed it necessary, did not attack and would only have done so if there was a threat to their own survival.

Simply put, any Zionite who attacks Machines or Machinists is a failure in the effort for peace and a traitor to humankind, who reside in the pods in a symbiotic relationship with the Machines for survival, and will be dealt with severely.

Fixed

EPN wants to take it to the Machines while Zion wants to ensure its own safety which is essential for the futrue of all humanity.

 Croesus wrote:

If Zion didn't want a war, why violate the agreement and build a fortified base?
 

Besides New Zion is a Violation of the agreement between Zion and The Machines, being able to attack then retreat to relative safety...

Ummm... Have I missed receiving my copy of The Treaty? To what text do you refer when you state the terms of the agreement? Is it like the Magna Carta or The Bill of Rights? Can I visit Zero One as a tourist and pick up a print from the gift shop?

Okay, I'm being flippant but the general point is valid...

By definition, a truce is often informal and of a temporary nature. Now, I know that the Ark of Armaggedon delivers a Record of Pact, but I am not so sure that this is actually referring to the Zion/Machine truce. Is there some other document which I should be referring to? Since Neo was not in a position to negotiate terms after dealing with Smith, I doubt there has ever been a formalisation to the terms of Peace. Okay, there might have been a meeting between other parties: Please, feel free to clue me in.

I don't want to repeat what will likely become a painfully common Zionite comment but, "building New Zion is a solely defensive act": The Truce has most likely been formed on a basis of agreeing mutual non-aggression. Whilst I am sure that no Machine would happily lose such a tactical advantage, the response to this recent development seems to be best described as "Sabre Rattling" or even "a temper tantrum".

A Truce is not another term for Surrender. Zion would be stupid to miss an opportunity to struggle free from beneath the blade of The Machine's guillotine. The whole reason why exile programs exist is that The Machine's develop and delete the redundant or obselete. So how long before The Machines find an alternative fuel source and all Bluepills are no longer the best source of power? Without Bluepills, the simulation in which they live also has no purpose. Without The Matrix, what is the point of having a place to house those who reject the simulation?

The Exiles find sanctuary in The Matrix. The ultimate example of this is The Merovingian's chateau which I understand to be impervious to the reset process. Are The Machines crying "foul!" at his pressumed immunity to their influence? So why is it that humans are to be regarded as a threat when they act similarly?

"We know what we have to do: Shut the Machines down."

I won't claim to know The Kid's intention in making this statement, but I think many of you may be taking this too literally.  "Shutting the Machines down" doesn't have to mean murder, it can mean shutting them down ideologically, destroying their control.  If the Machines can survive without enslaving the human race, I'd consider them my friends.  You can argue history all you want, yes, humans struck first in the original war.  Humans blotted out the sky.  But that's all past us now, and the fact remains that millions upon millions have their minds ensnared, and they ALL must be awakened.  That will take time, of course.  All that Zion Command did with New Zion was give us more time, which is exactly what we need to pursue the cause of freedom.

You can argue history all you want, yes, humans struck first in the original war. 

GamiSB wrote:

1. Michael already dismissed the Matrix as being the weak spot.
2. We have never wanted to kill blues for any reason what so ever.
3. We are well aware of the fact that killing the Machines would kill blues.
4. He means what he says, that if a life has to be taken to shut down the Machine, we won't do it.
5. He saved us he saved them he saved the Matrix. <-- Core piece of EPN doctrine.

Ok, so you know that shutting the Machines down will more than likely result in millions of bluepill deaths...
yet you don't want to take any life to shut down the Machines... What are you trying to accomplish?

Bleh silly double post.