This thread is for discussion of HCFrog's design journal posted to Data Node One on Friday, March 10, 2006.
Message Edited by Walrus on 03-10-2006 07:19 PM
Designer Journal - "Care Bear Stare" - Friday, March 10, 2006
55 posts · 2006-03-10 18:54:28 to 2006-04-28 15:55:37
Mathematics and working out the CU2.0 stuff at 03:23 am lol. Nice to see some of the hardwork on paper and on the servers, Good work guys!
O.o
"Well, whatever it is you're not doing, go don't do it somewhere else."
-A police officer in "Manos" The Hands of Fate
-A police officer in "Manos" The Hands of Fate
OK, I'm tired and at work, I'll have to take a double take of this when I get home.
// Information Overload //
But yay for the pictures!
I hope the red line wins the race.
But yay for the pictures!
I hope the red line wins the race.
Message Edited by Aquilae on 03-10-200610:46 PM
My... head hurts... I think...
Hmmmm, shiny colours.
>revolt_
Hmmmm, shiny colours.
>revolt_
I read all of that and I only have this to say:
Walrus, you so craaaaazy. @_@
Walrus, you so craaaaazy. @_@
Message Edited by Musutangu on 03-10-200609:48 PM
I love that in the first image, there's actually a tab labeled "NPC Damage Nerfing". 
You rock, Frog.
- Void
You rock, Frog.
- Void
Recursion: n - See Recursion.
yea I didn't wanna say it but I am confused, hense the need to get home from work to analsye in more detail.
I don't get it.
Can someone please explain this in idiot for me please? What that article supposed to be comforting? =)
/dumbhat on
even though im still tring to figure it out sounds good i guess lol to me that just sounded like the architecths speach for the first time :smileywink:
I'm just gonna sneak in here and pretend that I understood it all.
Good article.. It asnwered alot of questions I was wondering about.
/Lookaround
Yeah... Ehem.. *Silence* I think I'll be going now.
:p
Seriously though. Very nice article. Atleast the part of it I understood.
(And yay for the last picture!:p)
does this mean there is no looking glass for this week? :smileyindifferent:
SO yah....If you could .zip up thoese spreadsheets and email them to me, that'd be great. Thanks.
Seriously though. Once CR2 is stable and where everyone wants it to be will we be able to obtain some of these calculations for players to make informed decisions on clothing/abilities/who to attack, etc.
Obvisouly you can't give out those excel sheets or you'll probably lose your job. But the community would appreciate portions of calculations and formulas which are relevant so that they may assist us in using the new product you are creating.
Seriously though. Once CR2 is stable and where everyone wants it to be will we be able to obtain some of these calculations for players to make informed decisions on clothing/abilities/who to attack, etc.
Obvisouly you can't give out those excel sheets or you'll probably lose your job. But the community would appreciate portions of calculations and formulas which are relevant so that they may assist us in using the new product you are creating.
What the **** does all that mean?
-_- 0_0 -_- 0_0 whaaaaaaat.
And I thought the spreadsheets I have to make every day were complex. Kudos, Frog. Kudos.
EndlessVoid wrote:
I love that in the first image, there's actually a tab labeled "NPC Damage Nerfing".
You rock, Frog.
- Void
What he said ^
+ /Devhug always label cells
Walrus, I notified Bob Barker that you took his "spay and nuter" line!
THIS IS NOT AN EQUAL SUPPLY FOR MISSING AN OSLG!!! But with so much going on, I quess it'll work
I'm diggin' the Dr. Strangelove ref.
I just don't understand this
Archived Media
Thanks for the great article, HCFrog! Balancing out a whole game's worth of NPCs must've been a daunting task, but the results have been amazing. Again, kudos on a job well done with CR2.0!
Thanks for that, interesting reading
Undoubtedly the implementation of CR2.0 must be a daunting task. Some of us here do appreciate the work and effort involved in processing the game for us. Forgive me as I have posted and will post complaints on the system becuase I am one that does not like change. The fact that I have learned the current system and become pretty good at it (with the exception of needing an RSI hack) and now being forced into change does aggrivate me alot. However I wlll be around beyond CR2.0 and I guess I must live with the fact that the Combat System is going to change regardless if 70% of the people that play the game dont like it. I think the majority of them are in the same boat with me, they dont like change,
With out further a due, Grats to the Dev team. Im looking forward to CR 2.0 going live and facing the ultimate test. Hopefully I can figure the attribute system out a little better before then.
PS. I dont like the fact that you changed the dates on the Anniversary Event, I had it marked on my calendar and told work I had appointments all that weekend. Now I am forced to miss it as the dates have changed. I will be in Chicago that weekend.
With out further a due, Grats to the Dev team. Im looking forward to CR 2.0 going live and facing the ultimate test. Hopefully I can figure the attribute system out a little better before then.
PS. I dont like the fact that you changed the dates on the Anniversary Event, I had it marked on my calendar and told work I had appointments all that weekend. Now I am forced to miss it as the dates have changed. I will be in Chicago that weekend.
Message Edited by Spooky31 on 03-10-200611:59 PM
Message Edited by Spooky31 on 03-11-200612:01 AM
lol, you said Knobs
Are those screenshots supposed to be small? Because the first one I can't even read the letters/numbers in the shot.
Hey,
I think the pics are quite impressing and an interesting sight. Its a pity they dont provide much Information.
I have a question about pic 3.
Why gets a lvl 1-8, or lvl 19-41 less damage from a lvl 14 NPC than from a lvl 13. Roughly the same for lvl 26 and 27 NPC´s.
I would really love to see those files
Thats why I support Endonesia´s request to upload them.
I think the pics are quite impressing and an interesting sight. Its a pity they dont provide much Information.
I have a question about pic 3.
Why gets a lvl 1-8, or lvl 19-41 less damage from a lvl 14 NPC than from a lvl 13. Roughly the same for lvl 26 and 27 NPC´s.
I would really love to see those files
Thats why I support Endonesia´s request to upload them.There has to be a law to post such a complex thing for a person like me to read at 9am.
j/k nice to see what really happens behind the scenes and it was an interesting read
for those that are lost:
Those spread sheets have all the DPS data from the game. So if they need to tweak things, they can see the results without screwing up many lines of code in the actual game. The multi color lines show average DPS for a specific level per round.
Those spread sheets have all the DPS data from the game. So if they need to tweak things, they can see the results without screwing up many lines of code in the actual game. The multi color lines show average DPS for a specific level per round.
i understand what that meant completely.
What i would also like to see is a graph of what the current combat system would look like. By what i see here for the CR2.0 the current system wouldn't be that straight of a rainbow. the numbers for the current system seem more individualy based per npc and per player ability. But then it would be hard to base a graph on the current system, because it is based more on the hit ratio then your defence, skill, dodge range, ability, and so forth.
so thank you for a more predise look at how a decicion is made when adjusting the combat system.
FINALTOM
ReguIus wrote:
I just don't understand this
Hehe, if you don't label your cells properly then you may end up changing the wrong thing (hence all the bonuses being applied at less then 1% I assume).
Nice artical (gives an insight anyway), I prefer the original name of the spreadsheet though, I think you should change it back Frog. :p
And devious players using things against NPC's? I can't believe you'd even suggest such a thing. :o
Jeffers
Archived Media
A welcome insight into the design process and I hope at some stage more details such as this can be released perhaps to offset the information we have lost by no longer seeing roll values. Although something may sound easy on paper, putting it into practice is a whole different matter; sometimes an appreciation we lose in our enthusiasm to request changes etc (well I know I'm guilty anyways )
)On a practical front does this affect the current colour conning system as without average damage resistance the threat level range appears extended?
I actually understood this.
ummmm /huh?
need something to reference to, ie what does the combat system on live look like (as suggested above)
it is pretty tho! lol
Man, too bad I dont speak computer, lol.
Understood that one pretty well... hmm, maybe all there is to designing games is pretty colors in Excel ^_^
All jokes aside, though, that's smegging awesome! It's so cool to play a game for a long, long time, and then FINALLY get to see how it actually works. Bring us more, HCFrog! WE LIKE NUMBERS AND CHARTS!
All jokes aside, though, that's smegging awesome! It's so cool to play a game for a long, long time, and then FINALLY get to see how it actually works. Bring us more, HCFrog! WE LIKE NUMBERS AND CHARTS!
Sosuke1 wrote:
Why gets a lvl 1-8, or lvl 19-41 less damage from a lvl 14 NPC than from a lvl 13. Roughly the same for lvl 26 and 27 NPC´s.
I don't think you were reading that correctly (granted, the numbers are hard to make out). All the damage numbers appear to scale correctly based on the player level vs. NPC level.
Looks good, HCFrog! I was hoping for a pie chart, though! :smileytongue:
Message Edited by digitize on 03-11-200607:29 PM
Well, that was very nice. Complicated but nice. I really appreciate all the hard work you guys do. I figured you all used something like that to figure your complex equations.
Now if I only had my CQ ladder ranking equation table system, I'd show ya... but it's back home on my computer. If you all don't eventually give us a ranking system with CQs, we could always settle for nice XML readouts for our characters. Sorta like other games that are out there right now.
- Cog
Nope, they dont scale correctly based on the player level, but thx for the answer anyway.
digitize wrote:
Sosuke1 wrote:
Why gets a lvl 1-8, or lvl 19-41 less damage from a lvl 14 NPC than from a lvl 13. Roughly the same for lvl 26 and 27 NPC´s.I don't think you were reading that correctly (granted, the numbers are hard to make out). All the damage numbers appear to scale correctly based on the player level vs. NPC level.
For what reason did I post a picture?
Looks good. Can't wait to see it on the normal server.
Yay! It's a Norwegian on the screenie!
Yah.. the level 14 numbers are off... Is anybody else worried about how qickly the DPS scales in the "conning ranges"? Greys scale slowly and Purples scale slowly (and in the above case backwards) but from green to red there's a huge diff. I have a feeling the bottom line wasn't an actual DPS number but secs. per kill... That seems backwards to me. And "as intended" is going to be a grey term.
Now here's the thing. Level based mitigation *sigh*. Now I'm a johnnie come lately to this discussion but as I understand it this means that by 'dinging' you will magically be more resistant to an attack. This seems to be a constant theme through SOE games and one I'm still not entirely comfortable with. It seems to me that this is also a 180 degree from the original concept. Wasn't mitigation going to be based largely on attribute point allocation, which is obviously level dependent, and item bonuses with level bonuses being the smallish tweaks?
That's a big balancing act but one I kinda' liked. Obviously with one point allocation you were turning what, 8 or 10 knobs at once in big jumps and leaving the other 30 or so largely unchanged. When you get the knobs turned correctly in relation to one another then you could add additional balance with gated loot drops (e.g. construct loot) and the like. This way you would reward the savvy player who takes the time to study the pros and cons of attribute/clothing combos instead of a blanket-- 5 level dfferential get out of jail free card (obviously an exaggeration).
I like the idea of a mismanaged or poorly equipped character getting beat up by a grey con or a lowbie. Now it would have to be a perfect storm for that sort of thing to happen. If you guys work without a net then it should be only fair that you allow the players to also.
You guys rock! I know how hard it is to make this kind of change mid-stream and the effort it takes to pull it off like you guys are.
Keep up the good work!
AOK
Kudos to HCFrog for the write up. Those are some alright spreadsheets, but if that's all you need to know to be an SOE Dev where do I apply. :smileywink:
Impressive system though, nice to have some insight into the Dev proccess, and I expect those spreadsheets in my inbox within 24 hours thank you.
-Jilted
I'm pretty sure it has something to do with DPS being rounded to integers while other numbers in the calculation are rounded to floats. It probably is the order the calculations are performed in, and where the DPS integer part hits... It's a good question though
Sosuke1 wrote:
Hey,
I think the pics are quite impressing and an interesting sight. Its a pity they dont provide much Information.
I have a question about pic 3.
Why gets a lvl 1-8, or lvl 19-41 less damage from a lvl 14 NPC than from a lvl 13. Roughly the same for lvl 26 and 27 NPC´s.
For people who are asking what the Live version of this spreadsheet would look like, honestly I have no idea. Our current Live game is a nightmare to balance - like, someone pops a top level tactics booster and the whole chart would go out the window, because now the NPCs your level will never touch you and you'll almost always hit them.
When we were trying to balance the Pandora NPCs we basically had to look at what people's CT would be, then what they'd be with the highest level buffs and TB, and how big a debuff could they apply to the enemies, and then try to make those numbers line up somewhat. Because if there was a combination that could make players have significantly higher tactics than the NPCs, it turns on a dime from a huge challenge into no challenge at all. Then we had to playtest over and over and over with tiny tweaks each time, and a tiny change one way or the other would completely unbalance the encounter.
One of the big things I'm looking forward to with this new system is creating boss-type encounters like this.
lol OMG PANCAKE HAXX BUNNY!
PBlade wrote:
My response to that entire journal.
Archived image unavailable: agentpancakebunny4xw.html
The first character I played I leveled with Karate. The next three I leveled with Hacker. I was saddened when the bosses in the archives had their deflection turned up so nobody would meet in there any more. All orgs. would usually (not always ) work "together" to get drops or XP from the Gargoyle or Tengu. The archives have been empty for a long time.
I guess gone are the days when I play my character from Lamar northeast hardline, at level 29 LOL. I can beat up Pound Pupppies, Suits, and Hellions for big XP and big $info often 7 or eight levels higher. then move on to Creston heights when I reach close to level 40.
CR2 will change the game significantly. It will be interesting to start new characters to see how it plays. Everytime I level a character the game plays a little different.
Anyway, thank you MXO team for this game and doing what you do to keep it going.
GNZ
I guess gone are the days when I play my character from Lamar northeast hardline, at level 29 LOL. I can beat up Pound Pupppies, Suits, and Hellions for big XP and big $info often 7 or eight levels higher. then move on to Creston heights when I reach close to level 40.
CR2 will change the game significantly. It will be interesting to start new characters to see how it plays. Everytime I level a character the game plays a little different.
Anyway, thank you MXO team for this game and doing what you do to keep it going.
GNZ
Message Edited by Rexxhavukk on 03-14-200606:55 PM
I can't believe I read the whoooooooooooooole thing.
but seriously, great work guys and dolls. Looks (and plays on test) very comfortably.
(but many will disagree I'm sure)
All I have to say is: Koo Koo Ka-Choo