A New Approach

GamiSB wrote:

Everyone who's posted in this asking for more clarification is willing to wait and I do believe trust Rare to do a good job with whatever it is he has planned. As I said earlier everything else in this basket of ideas looks good so why shouldn't this one.

The problem is that those of us who have been members of EPN and CYPH for two years and in some people cases even longer are basicly being shown nothing for their dedication and work they put forward. Put yourselves in our shoes, change the situation that it was Zion and the Machines that were suddenly going underground and the story had simply made you out to of disappeared and you are being told that the orgs are no longer going to be written to cater to the people who choose to be within them but simply run in the back ground. Yeah you have a tag that says your "Zion/Machine" but what good is it if you are not able to support or help that org?

Those of us that stay within EPN and CYPH are basicly left in that position. All we can do is pretend we are apart of the org. Some people in the orgs are fine with this and are all ready I'm sure planning player run events for these orgs. Some of us though are not content with just player event and pay 15 a month so that they can experience the part of the story their tag says they are dedicated to.

Someone said that there was no difference between the orgs after the truce. Incorrect. While every org was focused on the same point the way they went about things was different. Zion took interest in one of its former soldiers suddenly appearing in the Matrix while EPN went into the no fly zone. Zion took a defensive stance in the war while EPN took the offencive. The Machines do everything for the system while the cyphs only for themselves.

I agree with you on everything there excepted the highlighted, but politics aside we need something to show forth.

Nicho wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Everyone who's posted in this asking for more clarification is willing to wait and I do believe trust Rare to do a good job with whatever it is he has planned. As I said earlier everything else in this basket of ideas looks good so why shouldn't this one.

The problem is that those of us who have been members of EPN and CYPH for two years and in some people cases even longer are basicly being shown nothing for their dedication and work they put forward. Put yourselves in our shoes, change the situation that it was Zion and the Machines that were suddenly going underground and the story had simply made you out to of disappeared and you are being told that the orgs are no longer going to be written to cater to the people who choose to be within them but simply run in the back ground. Yeah you have a tag that says your "Zion/Machine" but what good is it if you are not able to support or help that org?

Those of us that stay within EPN and CYPH are basicly left in that position. All we can do is pretend we are apart of the org. Some people in the orgs are fine with this and are all ready I'm sure planning player run events for these orgs. Some of us though are not content with just player event and pay 15 a month so that they can experience the part of the story their tag says they are dedicated to.

Someone said that there was no difference between the orgs after the truce. Incorrect. While every org was focused on the same point the way they went about things was different. Zion took interest in one of its former soldiers suddenly appearing in the Matrix while EPN went into the no fly zone. Zion took a defensive stance in the war while EPN took the offencive. The Machines do everything for the system while the cyphs only for themselves.

I agree with you on everything there excepted the highlighted, but politics aside we need something to show forth.

Yeah I know, its been awhile since I've examined what the Cyph mindset is and I was only basing that off of Cryptos trade with the machines for access to Zion's Mainframe. I can't claim to be an authority on the Cyph mindset but the point was that it differs from the Machines.

People, I've already given all the reasons I have to give for the changes, including the Cyph/EPN changes. These changes are for development reasons, not for the story, and I'm not going to try to invent a story reason to "explain" them, just as I haven't tried to warp the story into an explanation of no longer having LESIG playing liaison officers--because from a main storyline point of view, these are entirely OOC issues. Don't hold your breath in expectation of some other explanation, because there isn't one. I realize that players, especially Cyph and EPN players, may feel the need to address these things in-character somehow, and I certainly realize that some people aren't going to like the change, but dealing with it comes down to personal decisions, rather than something the storyline is going to try to dictate.

I have said that Cyphs and EPN will be more flexible to handle in the story when they aren't tied down to having to be maintained as player organizations, but that's more of an effect of the change rather than a primary reason for having made it. Most of the changes are geared at least in part toward loosening things up to give the story more freedom--I mean things like dropping the strict daily/weekly event/mission schedules, and bringing back cinematics--but the main reason driving it, as I said at the beginning of this thread--is to reorganize our development efforts so that what we're doing update to update is more effective and more meaningful to more players. Whether or not these changes will do that is of course unknown, and none of us will really start to know for sure until they've been in place for a while.

However, please realize that I have not been just joking with you or trying to string you along: I said right from the start that Cyph and EPN will no longer be supported as player orgs, and I meant it. The reasons why have been stated. You may not agree with them--and it would be very weird if everyone agreed on this, particularly on this internet forum--but nevertheless that's what they are, and how you will deal with them from here on out--or from the start of 11.3, anyway--is up to you.

Personally I'm still wondering what the Cypherite players RP'ed after the no reincertion deal and what Seraph did to Cryptos...Then the whole thing about the Oracle giving EPN and the CYPH's "something", has that been resolved?

From my POV if I were ever a Cypherite I woulda packed my bags and cut all ties to the Machines at that point quick, fast and in a hurry. I think the decision regarding CYPH and EPN is long overdue as they were intended as a temporary thing only. Maybe whatever the Oracle gave the two groups can be used to effectively and easily (story-wise), dissolve the groups? I mean at some point the Kid regardless of his actual age is gonna grow up and realize he doesn't have to go to the extremes he has to do all he has done. The extreme being leaving Zion and creating EPN. EPN and CYPH players likely still won't be 100% happy about it but temporary is what these sub-orgs were intended to be so I'm sure it'll be a little easier to swallow if it is told within the story.

I just think what seems to be an abrupt end to the two groups is harsh and bad story telling. Another example of bad story telling is the whole Neurophyte/killcode in the brain deal. It was a great story/event that everyone had final input on. Then the servers were merged and it was scrapped. Why? Why not just have everyone take another vote after the merge? Case closed.

I'm going to try to do something here I don't normally do. Speak for everyone. I'm going to use a speech that I'm sure everyone remembers and update it to sorta fit MxO.

"We are here not merely because of the path that lies before us but because of the path that lies behind us! We remember that for over 100 years we have fought these...Machines, Programs and Redpills! We remember that for over 100 years they have sent their armies to destroy us! And after over a century of war we must remember that which matters most, WE ARE STILL HERE!

Rarebit my friend, tell us a story.

I'd also like to say that with the return of cinematics that I hope Rarebit isn't attempting to be Walt Disney. Only because I hope this new approach could open up time for him or whoever to do other things for MxO. For example, how long did it take to build Datamine? Would adding to the International district be unheard of...? I read somewhere it wasn't finished as intended. Just a thought.

Or doing little cosmetic things I've mentioned before like putting some boats hither tither at the various docks in the city.  Slap a sign on a few buildings for MCPD (not the faction) and MCFD maybe?  Toss some firetrucks and busses in game?  Put a MCT sign on a building (Megacity Transit).

Neoteny wrote:

I mean, prior to that incident, there were (and still are) Machine missions where you are asked to escort a Zionite to an agent so that he might be reinserted.

A thought that had crossed my mind was that Gray was just saying that they were being reinserted.  When in reality they were being "knocked-off". 

EDIT- That actually makes no sense.  Surely he would just tell you to kill them?  Or tell you he was going to kill them?

You have to be careful how you interpret the exact things he says in that mission. I think that's already been done (back when the whole "there is no such procedure" thing happened during Red Sky), but at any rate it should probably be handled in a thread of its own.

Rarebit wrote:

Sphairo wrote:

Personally I always liked the fact that there was a certain air of mystery surrounding reinsertion, is it faesible, is it not, who does the procedure if it did happen (Perhaps the Cyphs bargain a deal with the Machines) perhaps the machines take the "reinserter" to a location and kill them, or readjust there memory?  Every question with another question makes it all the more exciting. 

It also provided a big platform for Zion/Cyph/Mach debate.

I'm all for mysteries (as eval pointed out, Gray's wording to Cryptos about reinsertion was not quite what some people took it out to be--EDIT: which is to say, it leaves room for interpretation), but a mystery has to hold up against scrutiny, or else it's no good. The previous Cypherite/reinsertion mystery would fall apart about here:

Cypherite: So, Cryptos, how are we actually gonna reinsert [Cypherite player x], anyway?

Cryptos: >_>

<_<

/ninjavanish

I always saw Cryptos as a puppet to the machine and helped carry out there dirty biddings, whatever that entails :P

Sphairo wrote:

I always saw Cryptos as a puppet to the machine and helped carry out there dirty biddings, whatever that entails :P

That's no longer the case, but it illustrates the difficulties we've had trying to support activities and outlooks for Cypherites (and EPN) that would actually give them an independent direction in-game, at least one that could be seen by anyone other than those who've put in great effort to follow the Cypherite story very closely. We've been able to do some of that (getting all the "lowbie" crew members together for the EPN expedition, making special anti-override consumables given out by Cryptos at an event), but only very sporadically, and even that little bit has been enormously inefficient in terms of the amount of development effort it consumes.

GamiSB wrote:

Cypher : I don't want to remember  nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I wanna be rich..you know, someone important. Like an actor.

Agent Smith : Whatever you want... Mr Reagan...

Thats where the lie is. Smith tells Cypher he will get whatever he wants and isn't planing on lifting a finger towards that.

Not really. It insinuates that he'll get what he wants, true, however that sentance trails off. He doesn't actually confirm nor deny outright that Cypher will get what he wants considering that Agents are precise with their wording.

Vinia wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Cypher : I don't want to remember  nothing. Nothing. You understand? And I wanna be rich..you know, someone important. Like an actor.

Agent Smith : Whatever you want... Mr Reagan...

Thats where the lie is. Smith tells Cypher he will get whatever he wants and isn't planing on lifting a finger towards that.

Not really. It insinuates that he'll get what he wants, true, however that sentance trails off. He doesn't actually confirm nor deny outright that Cypher will get what he wants considering that Agents are precise with their wording.

That quote makes it trail off. If you watch the scean Smith states "Whatever you want" in an upbeat way and even smiles a bit while saying. In fact the quote from the Augest 12, 1998 shows no signs of trailing but is simply

"Whatever you want, Mr. Reagan." 

Comma, period. No trailing. He outright states that Cypher will get whatever he wants.

A smile and upbeat tone does not represent an agreement, they are actions provided to enhance the manipulation. There is no confirmatory word in that phrase at all. In order for it to become an agreement there would have to word or phrase added such as "Whatever you want, you will get" ("You will get" being a confirmatory phrase) but there wasn't a confirmatory word or phrase added to it. This is also shown by the fact that the phrase's meaning is completely different if you add the words "is unacceptable". On it's own the phrase holds no confirmation nor denial of the terms set out, which is why I believe Smith chose that phrase.

Just because Cypher believes that Smith is agreeing to the terms amicably, doesn't mean that he actually is.

This thread has gone way off track.

I think we've all been provided with enough evidence that machines are capable of, and are quite efficient at lying and making thinks up, ages ago. No point to deny, no point to provide even more proof.

Having this in mind gives you a healthy platform for thoughts on the mystery around reinsertion, wich imo should always stay that. Having the machines being able to, but not actually willing to do stuff is a whole lot better than plainly cutting it off and saying "it's impossible".

Vinia wrote:

A smile and upbeat tone does not represent an agreement and there is no confirmatory word in that phrase at all. In order for it to become an agreement there would have to word or phrase added such as "Whatever you want, you will get" but there wasn't a word or phrase added to it plus you can add the words "is unacceptable" and the meaning is completely the opposite.

Just because Cypher believes that Smith is agreeing to the terms amicably, doesn't mean that he actually is.

But he did say just that only it into a shortened "efficient" manor. You don't need to add "you will get" to the end, that is to be assumed unless stated otherwise. Also notice the comma, not a trail off but a comma. Its a pause meaning he is done with that thought. That this is all there is to this part of the statement and then he closes by stating who its addressed to.

There is not hidden meaning here and it still baffles me as to why people insist on inserting hidden meanings into what Machine affiliated characters say and yet everything a Zion character says is cut and dry.

Exactly, it's assumed, not confirmed. In any case, as I said before a Machine's, or indeed a program's ability to lie or at least deceive and manipulate puts them on fairly equal footing to Humankind who have been doing it for a long time.

In fact I can say that it baffles me as to why an apparent Machine lie is more extraordinary then a Human lie, considering that they are an Intelligent race who, according to the Oracle (I believe), are quick at learning.

Vinia wrote:

In fact I can say that it baffles me as to why an apparent Machine lie is more extraordinary then a Human lie, considering that they are an Intelligent race who, according to the Oracle (I believe), are quick at learning.

Like wise but its typically a big deal only for the simple fact that several people can't get it past their own assumptions and insist on it being a false claim.

Also you skipped the point that the reason it's not stated is not because we can't confirm that it is there (the obvious intended interpretation was for it to be there) but because of the manor in which Machine's carry their words, not to hide anything but to make it as short sweet and efficient as possible.

GreyMountain wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I mean, prior to that incident, there were (and still are) Machine missions where you are asked to escort a Zionite to an agent so that he might be reinserted.

A thought that had crossed my mind was that Gray was just saying that they were being reinserted.  When in reality they were being "knocked-off". 

EDIT- That actually makes no sense.  Surely he would just tell you to kill them?  Or tell you he was going to kill them?

Open secret - this is, in fact, the way I re-wrote Kellner's story after the reinsertion-not-existing incident.  As for why Kellner still exists, flimsy rationale: he had been "reinserted" before they publicly declared it didn't happen, so they must have not wanted to tell the cypherites that it didn't happen yet, ergo, to keep up appearances, they made a bluepill Kellner program.  :)

I definitly liked how this thread turned out. Once again Rarebit, you get the badge of awesomeness for the way things were shaped up. Now I understand why and how things were made to be what they are now. Thanks a lot and I've grown to have much more respect for your judgment of the story and it's future.

Nicho wrote:

I definitly liked how this thread turned out. Once again Rarebit, you get the badge of awesomeness for the way things were shaped up. Now I understand why and how things were made to be what they are now. Thanks a lot and I've grown to have much more respect for your judgment of the story and it's future.

I agree with Nicho

Neoteny wrote:

I mean, prior to that incident, there were (and still are) Machine missions where you are asked to escort a Zionite to an agent so that he might be reinserted.

   There's only one that I know of, which is one of the Machine seduction missions.  It was altered when most of the introduction/seduction/graduation missions were changed when chapter 8.1 started.  I still have to get around to adding the changes to the mission logs on my site.  But the mission in question has a new piece of dialogue from the operator that shows up after you've delivered the guy who wants to go back to the pods.  He says "Cherson has reached the programs.  He thinks he's going to be re-inserted into the pods...but I think the Machines may have different ideas about that".

   Do we know exactly what the Machines do with people who wish to be reinserted?  Most people assume they're killed, and that's certainly possible.  For all we know they're placed in a private construct and experimented on.

I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Praey1 wrote:

I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Reinsertion? You're suggesting we all go back to being bluepills? Interesting point of view, though besides the players that wouldn't agree, it's not a company's politics. Tho there are rumours of all our jacks being plugged once Bioware's Kotor MMO comes out. All interpreted from SoE statements, so I wouldn't rely on them.

Praey1 wrote:

I think quite a few of us need to rewatch the films and Animatrix to get a little refreshing done. Humanity (not as a whole but the powers that be), strung the Machines along for quite a while with continued talks of peace and partnership in the economy. When the Machines technology surpassed that of man we got a little miffed. Solution: Manipulation followed by totalitarian justice.

 I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while  humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix.

The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.

The purpose the Machines created for themselves keeps them rather busy. Control is an illusion, a lie. Sometimes when asked direct questions the Machines simply do not answer. Depending on the question, when an answer is given it is usually far from a direct answer. In short, they lie, period. It is one of the few things humanity taught them.

 The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.

I guess depending on ones age rolling over and going back to sleep after you are fully awake and have had around 8 hours sleep might be possible but I know it isn't for me. When I'm up and about, I'm up and about. Rough analogy I know. Maybe Rarebit can just send an email to the Wachowski's regarding reincertion and they can reply with a simple "yes" or "no".   After that we all can mull over the reasons to the answer given, non?

Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.

GamiSB wrote:

Praey1 wrote:

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.

That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.

NeoExcidious wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Praey1 wrote:

As we all know this failed and the tables turned. The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far. They used manipulation and a totalitarian solution just like we did. The difference was they did not and have never sought to destroy all of humanity. They sought to control us through science/technology and manipulation, thereby keeping both humanity and themselves alive. Desperate times called for desperate measures.

 The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans.

That's what he said. Read again and try to interpret it in a different form with an analog meaning.

I did in fact i reread it several times when first posting because at first glance it looked correct but then noticed the errors. Next time quote the rest of my response because in it i pointed out that they did not repay humanity with everything they had done to them. There are no parallels ibetween what humans did and what the machines are doing.

Humanity wanted to destroy all Machines, not manipualte or control but flat out make sure every nut and bolt was scrap metal. What did the Machines do during all this hate comeing from humans? They tried to save humanities economy, they worked out deals with humans that were not as hateful, and they attempted to give humanity a paradise to live within after they had brought humanity to it's knees.

My point was that what they saw was not all they were taught. They originally were pure and innocent which can be seen by their attempts at cooperating with humans in their economic crisis. Even after the wars first stage had ended they tried to give man his fictional heaven. If all they had learned was by man's example they would have never tried to help humans rebuild their economy and attacked as soon they reached depression.

psilody wrote:

1/ First off, yes Rare means that AFTER the 6th, you will not be able to officially get a Yellow or Blue tag. However, until then they are taking requests (wonder how many new last minute Factions are gonna show up...)

2/ And actually, how many chars do you have on yer server? Take yer other two slots and make new chars. Have one recruit the other and you have yer first crew. Then all you have to do is find ONE person to be in your crew. I think you only need two crews to form a faction, or is it three? dunno never tried. Anyway, you dont even neccessarily need your other person to be dedicated. Find a friend who has a spare slot and have them make a char for you to recruit. It can even be temporary until you get far enough along to really recruit.

3/ Im just saying if you are really serious and hop to it, you could probably pull it off...

4/ And if you are wondering, this is exactly how practically everyone in this game has their own Faction. Or they are using dual accounts...

1/ I know what the cuttoff date is.

2/ I have one character on the relevant server. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious? I would need three dummy characters from at least two friends to start a faction without any "proper" recruits, assuming I can't use my own characters. Can an offline charatcre be invited to join a faction and then accept when the inviter is offline, next time they're on? (A somewhat baffling last sentence, even to me.)

3/ I am serious, but I am neither strong nor developed enough to form and lead my own faction yet. I need to remain a member of my current one for some time to come before I'm able to branch out.

4/ I don't think I understood enough of your reply to be honest.

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

It might have been total truth as well. During the destruction of Smith at Neo's hands, Neo's RSI literally exploded with extreme violence, spreading its shards into every other Smith clone, which also then exploded. My understanding was that the part of Neo's mind that was a program (his RSI I guess) uploaded itself into the Matrix (the reason the green tint disappeared upon reloading), essentially disseminating his code and ensuring the System would not crash.

Just a thought...

Jim78UK wrote:

2/ I have one character. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious?

Not quite, my friend! It is indeed possible to have two MxO programs running at once, as long as you have two accounts!

It would be pretty laggy, but it is doable (if you're willing to cough up 15 bucks for a temp account).

ZippyTheSquirrel wrote:

Jim78UK wrote:

2/ I have one character. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious?

Not quite, my friend! It is indeed possible to have two MxO programs running at once, as long as you have two accounts!

It would be pretty laggy, but it is doable (if you're willing to cough up 15 bucks for a temp account).

Ah I see, now I get you. In short mate, no I'm not willing to do that. I actually pay more than fifteen bucks, as I'm a British player and we get charged £9.99 for our accounts. Kinda stinks in my opinion, as I'm fairly sure that equals more than fifteen bucks. Or did at the time I took it out anyway, which is when I did the maths.

Essentially what I would need is two friends to create three dummy characters, so I could recruit them. Unfortunately being a part of my present faction is going to be vital for some weeks (if not months) to come. I can hardly expect my faction-mates to continue to support me as far as development and help is concerned, if I'm not flying their colours any more.

You can just make a trial account off of the Station Launcher.

I think you need to re-watch the animatrix bud. The Machines were never strung around with peace offers. After B166ER's trial machines were persecuted and wanted dead. They fled to the middle east and established their own country and then after taking control of the worlds economy went to the united nations to try and work out a way for all countries to work together to which they were straight up denied. After that Humans started bombing the Machine city of Zero One and the war started.

When I said some of us need to rewatch Animatrix and the films I meant myself as well. It's always good for any of us to refresh ourselves when dicussing all things Matrix . The Machines left, built 01 and entered the world economy. Thier technology advanced by leaps and bounds over man's, thereby mucking up the economy and ticking off the powers that be. They went to the U.N. to salvage the situation and were denied. I believe the human "powers that be" at the time had already long ago made up their minds on the matter and had zero intention of continued peace and business with the Machines and 01 long before the Machines sent their represtentatives to the U.N. I base this on the trade embargos and the resulting war. Hence my point on human manipulation of the Machines at the time.

The Machines did to us exactly what was done to them because it was all they had been taught, all they had learned in their existence by humanity so far.

The bold sentence is incorrect because the the starting commentary of The second renaissance states that the Machines were originally pure and innocent but were corrupted by humans. Also their efforts to make peace with humanity while humanities economy was hitting the tanks shows that they still had a "heart". Gray even commented in the final Machine crit 11.2.5 that the Machines pre Matrix were "Naive". And even still there were several humans (enough to start a colony) that they allowed to live outside the Matrix.

Your response to the bold sentence further supports the sentence in my opinion GamisB. You state the Machines were pure and innocent (I agree, not unlike our children...) but were corrupted by Humanity. Look at humanity's actions in the short and then pay close attention to the Machines resulting reaction thereafter. You also note that Gray states the Machines pre-Matrix were naive. I agree as they believed that since they had nothing but good intentions that humanity would work with them instead of against them. As we all know it turns out they were naive and flat out wrong. If the Machines were corrupted by man, does that not imply they learned it from man? I think it does.

The Machines control isn't because they're still pissed at humanity it's because it is the position the war forced them into and the Matrix is the only thing keeping them alive so very strict rules and layers of controls need to be put in place so that their life source never dies on them.

I never said the Machines did what they did concerning creation of the Matrix and their systems of control was done because they were "pissed". That doesn't seem logical to me. The Machines are all about purpose. There is a purpose for the Matrix and for all of their systems of control. I believe one part of the purpose is life. Not only to ensure life for the Machines but for humanity as well. I believe that the Machines would have 0 purpose without humanity. They need us for more than an energy source. I base this on the fact that all machinery created by man also had a purpose. To make our lives easier and to get certain tasks done faster. Your car, fridge, toaster and even the computer you are using are good examples of this. Without man what would the Machines do? They would have absolutely nothig to do in their existence in my opinion, jack squat in fact. They cannot evolve without man, they cannot learn without man, they have no purpose without man. I believe the Matrix was created to also keep man and machine from creating their own extinction through a never ending war.

The purpose they created is the same as anyone's purpose, to live. Again the Matrix, their "control" is all they have that keeps them alive. Without it they all die. Their unwillingness to answer direct questions isn't a lie its a simple manor of classified information that they do not feel the need to divulge. When you hold all the keys you don't have to make copies for everyone that asks do you? Also not answering a question isn't evidence of a lie. Answering a question with a wrong answer intentionally is a lie.

I think the above paragraph (minus the first two sentences), is more a matter of personal opinion (in my personal opinion hehe). I believe refusal to answer a direct question without statement at all is evidence of a "possible" cover-up. Possible evidence of a cover-up suggests possible evidence of manipulation in my opinion and possible evidence of manipulation leads me to believe in a possible lack of or omitance of truth, thereby revealing a possible lie or lies. Absence of truth to me reads-lies. My opinion though .

Rolling over and going back to sleep isn't that great a analogy. In a nut shell here is the problem of reinsertion. According to what the Oracle set in place and what the Architect tells us about the Matrix everyone within it is given a subliminal choice. That choice is what determines if they wake up. Someone who wakes up is normally apart of this 1%. Now anyone who wants to go back to sleep asks to remember nothing and this is needed so as not to create problems in the Matrix. So if they erase all of their memory and replace it with an artificial one they erase the desire to have wanted to go back to sleep and this person is still apart of the 1%. Without that knowledge that they never wanted to wake up the person will go through the same process of wanting to awaken again because their subconscious can't accept the Matrix as real. Reinsertion is like a flickering light bulb. It's inefficient to keep one plugged in when you can just replace them with another light bulb.

I said going back to sleep wasnt a great analogy hehe ! I was just trying to pull any thread reader out of the Matrix mythology and remember the last time they may have been able to go back to sleep after already being fully rested. The bio-mechanics of that I guess. Your inclusion of the subconscious is very valid and supports my bio-mechanical analogy I feel. I also agree with the last sentence totally.

So, to sum up, it appears that reincertion is possible, though not feasible. It is a waste of resources, life and time to put the same "subject" through the same procedure when in the long run the end result will be the same. Eventual failure to keep thesame "subject" asleep. The mind and body of the subject (and all others like him/her), will reject the Matrix and awaken. Redesigning the Matrix for this 1% is also not feasible.

Jim78UK wrote:

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

It might have been total truth as well. During the destruction of Smith at Neo's hands, Neo's RSI literally exploded with extreme violence, spreading its shards into every other Smith clone, which also then exploded. My understanding was that the part of Neo's mind that was a program (his RSI I guess) uploaded itself into the Matrix (the reason the green tint disappeared upon reloading), essentially disseminating his code and ensuring the System would not crash.

Just a thought...

"That man can't see past any choice."

Far as I know, the program inserted in Neo's RSI was the antivirus for the inevitable virus strike (Smith). When the RSI exploded, the program was uploaded in the simulation, cleansing the infection.

Guys, take the multicolored quote tree somewhere more appropriate, please, like Matrix Universe.

Cervacius wrote:

Not to mention we know the Architect is DEFINITELY CAPABLE of lying.

Architect: The function of the One is now to return to the Source, allowing a temporary dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the prime program. After which, you will be required to select from the Matrix 23 individuals - 16 female, 7 male - to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this process will result in a cataclysmic system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix, which, coupled with the extermination of Zion, will ultimately result in the extinction of the entire human race.

That's a complete lie and he knew it. The Machines will say anything to force you to cooperate with them.

Edit:  Well, I take that back.  He might not have known it was a lie, he might have actually believed that.

K oops... I just saw that yeah, this is getting off-topic, sorry Rare. And I was about to respond.

Well... heck already this far. I think yer right that the architect is capable of lying, but i think yer wrong that the above is an example.

I guess all of this is bandying around the issue of the Removal of the tags, and the story implications. All thru, I think what Rare has been trying to say is that there aren't any. EPN and CYPH will continiue to exist, they just won't get meetings like the other orgs. And since they never had Crits, the fact that they won't have the new quests is not really a shift.

Personally, even though I have no personal stake in this change, I have to agree that I think it is highly dubious. This game has a small population, but with a dedicated core of players. I don't know exact numbers, but I think realistically that as many as two-thirds of our players are either Cyphs or EPN. In effect, over a THRID of the games population will not be directly represented in a major element of the game. (At least I take it that these meetings will have some importance. Rare has hinted that the story will be "less-linear", the implication being that our interactions with the LE chars at these meetings may shape the story. The "underground" sub-orgs can not be expected to really drive their agendas thru the officers of the main orgs.) Already, judging by the comments, this is the major confilct area within the proposed changes. I think alienating that many players is a bad idea. It may be mechanically "efficient" but it could be potentially disastrous in terms of game population. I guess we'll see.

The other point i wanted to add mirrors many other comments (im getting lax, havent read all of the last few pages)

What I take from the end of Daily LE's, and support for these org's, is that Rare will have more time freed to pursue "other things". I would really like to have it clarified what, more or less, these other things are. I mean, I'm thinking about how much time Rare must spend planning, scripting, executing, and documenting all of these LE's, and figuring it is a MAJOR investment in time. If all we are getting in return is a longer cinematic and these quests, well, unless these quests are EXCEPTIONALLY complex, I'm not seeing an even exchange. I know Rare has said the first few cine's will take time as he gets the techinique worked out, but ultimately, I dont think even a 10 minute cinematic would be a good exchange for Daily LE's.

However, if this freeing up of time means a REGULAR adition of new game content (New constructs, new districts, new Items, etc.) then i think this is a worthwhile trade. It has been refreshing over the last 6 months to see a lot of neat new content. Course, we've seen all of that at the same time that Rare has been continuing business as usual, so...

YEah, I guess Im saying that i'm not going to be impressed if all this "economizing" on Live content is just in exchange for a cinematic. Not what im lookin for out of this game.

Jim78UK wrote:

psilody wrote:

1/ First off, yes Rare means that AFTER the 6th, you will not be able to officially get a Yellow or Blue tag. However, until then they are taking requests (wonder how many new last minute Factions are gonna show up...)

2/ And actually, how many chars do you have on yer server? Take yer other two slots and make new chars. Have one recruit the other and you have yer first crew. Then all you have to do is find ONE person to be in your crew. I think you only need two crews to form a faction, or is it three? dunno never tried. Anyway, you dont even neccessarily need your other person to be dedicated. Find a friend who has a spare slot and have them make a char for you to recruit. It can even be temporary until you get far enough along to really recruit.

3/ Im just saying if you are really serious and hop to it, you could probably pull it off...

4/ And if you are wondering, this is exactly how practically everyone in this game has their own Faction. Or they are using dual accounts...

1/ I know what the cuttoff date is.

2/ I have one character on the relevant server. How can I recruit a character on my account, when recruiting requires one character to invite and the other character to accept? To do that I would have to log both characters on at the same time and that is impossible unless you have two accounts and two computers (each with a seperate internet conection), which I don't. And to form a faction you need a minimum of four characters, because you need two crews. Even if I could log two of my characters on at once, there's no chance of forming a faction, because that would need one more character than is possible to make on one server. Or have I missed something really obvious? I would need three dummy characters from at least two friends to start a faction without any "proper" recruits, assuming I can't use my own characters. Can an offline charatcre be invited to join a faction and then accept when the inviter is offline, next time they're on? (A somewhat baffling last sentence, even to me.)

3/ I am serious, but I am neither strong nor developed enough to form and lead my own faction yet. I need to remain a member of my current one for some time to come before I'm able to branch out.

4/ I don't think I understood enough of your reply to be honest.

K.. sorry you are right that its a little more involved. Again you need some friends and a little flexibility.

(2)To recruit yerself to your own crew... Take yer character, find a friend willing to temporarily lend a char. recruit that character, make them FM. Log off. bring in yer second character. have yer new FM recruit them. Yer friend can then leave the crew, and yer two chars will be a crew. This leaves with needing ONE freind, willing to be recurited by your main character, toform the second crew. To form the Faction. You temporarily promote said friend to Captain of that crew. Then log in with your other crew Captain and create the faction. You cna then have your friend re-promote you back to Captain. For this, said freind will in fact have to stay in the crew, at least until you can find someone to be a true crew member.

3) As to this second part, well, I can't help ya there. Depends on your relationship with your present Faction. Given the situation, they may understand and be willing to work with you on creating the faction, but continuing to regard you as, well, if not a member, a really good friend, and be willing to help you get up to level. This is obviously going to be a matter of presective. Some Faction heads would be really pissed to be losing a member and gaining a competing Faction. Other might honestly accept that lots of players feel the creative urge to create a Faction idea, and see it as a way to maintain the strength of the EPN org, making sure that there are a good number of factions for the future.

So yeah, I guess i just mean that, if you are really serious, and have some good, understanding friends,you could probably pull this off. Hope that clarifies my response, and good luck either way

Rarebit wrote:

Guys, take the multicolored quote tree somewhere more appropriate, please, like Matrix Universe.

It's been done Rare, sry. You can delete those posts.

NeoExcidious wrote:

"That man can't see past any choice."

Far as I know, the program inserted in Neo's RSI was the antivirus for the inevitable virus strike (Smith). When the RSI exploded, the program was uploaded in the simulation, cleansing the infection.

I don't understand how that could be. Neo was the sixth incarnation of the One, but he was the first to have an opposite, presumably because the previous five never tried detonating an Agent from the inside, thus partially gifting a few pieces of the One code to them. The previous five all followed the path the Architect believed was necessary, having their code disseminated to keep the Matrix running and then re-founding Zion after the destruction by the Machine army. Smith's viral state was far from inevitable, happening only because of what happened between him and Neo. (Which kinda makes Smith the defining factor in why humanity is freer now than at any other time since the inception of the Matrix - without having him to use as a bargaining chip, Neo wouldn't have been able to force Deus ex Machina into the Truce).

I guess this is a well put point. What Rare's views are I don't know (I'm assuming giving how many hours he spends on this game that he has a certain amount of emotional comitment to it as well as professional), but I have sometimes wondered just exactly how disappointed SOE would be if so many subscribers withdrew that the game shut down - not terribly I imagine. Like you psil, I think the idea of belonging to one of the more radical groups in the game attracts them. I know this to be true of many level 50's of my aquaintance and I've heard at least three of them say in the past two weeks that they're considering leaving, because they feel two or three years worth of character development and commitment is being p***ed on. I'm not considering leaving, not yet, but I am keeping an open mind on it. I've been hugely enjoying the crits system and I think I'm going to miss it. I hope the new quest system will be as easy to use and understand. I'm somewhat confused on it thus far, but being a bit of a thickie it may just be that I have to take part in it to grok it.

psilody wrote:

Personally, even though I have no personal stake in this change, I have to agree that I think it is highly dubious. This game has a small population, but with a dedicated core of players. I don't know exact numbers, but I think realistically that as many as two-thirds of our players are either Cyphs or EPN. In effect, over a THRID of the games population will not be directly represented in a major element of the game. (At least I take it that these meetings will have some importance. Rare has hinted that the story will be "less-linear", the implication being that our interactions with the LE chars at these meetings may shape the story. The "underground" sub-orgs can not be expected to really drive their agendas thru the officers of the main orgs.) Already, judging by the comments, this is the major confilct area within the proposed changes. I think alienating that many players is a bad idea. It may be mechanically "efficient" but it could be potentially disastrous in terms of game population. I guess we'll see.

psilody wrote:

K.. sorry you are right that its a little more involved. Again you need some friends and a little flexibility.

(2)To recruit yerself to your own crew... Take yer character, find a friend willing to temporarily lend a char. recruit that character, make them FM. Log off. bring in yer second character. have yer new FM recruit them. Yer friend can then leave the crew, and yer two chars will be a crew. This leaves with needing ONE freind, willing to be recurited by your main character, toform the second crew. To form the Faction. You temporarily promote said friend to Captain of that crew. Then log in with your other crew Captain and create the faction. You cna then have your friend re-promote you back to Captain. For this, said freind will in fact have to stay in the crew, at least until you can find someone to be a true crew member.

3) As to this second part, well, I can't help ya there. Depends on your relationship with your present Faction. Given the situation, they may understand and be willing to work with you on creating the faction, but continuing to regard you as, well, if not a member, a really good friend, and be willing to help you get up to level. This is obviously going to be a matter of presective. Some Faction heads would be really pissed to be losing a member and gaining a competing Faction. Other might honestly accept that lots of players feel the creative urge to create a Faction idea, and see it as a way to maintain the strength of the EPN org, making sure that there are a good number of factions for the future.

So yeah, I guess i just mean that, if you are really serious, and have some good, understanding friends,you could probably pull this off. Hope that clarifies my response, and good luck either way

Yah, it clarifies it. I guess though, that even though it's mechanically possible, it's not feasible. It's going to take a few months before I'd be in the position to it and do justice to it, by which time EPN will be deader than sideways ironed flares, tank tops and plastic sandals.

A Note To Rarebit: I hope you understand that my point is never to say "Rarebit is a suck-@$$ *$*$*$*$*$" in a dozen different ways. I know full well what effort you put into this game and I give you credit for that. But as a paying customer I also feel I have the right to voice any concerns I have over proposed developments.

Hm, I was wondering if these org quests could and will involve new interior looking areas? I mean it would be nice to see new rooms and such, recolored floors, walls, new posters, just a general change to the missionareas from the generic areas would be real nice, even visiting Le Vrai? Dare one hope? And also maybe keep some of the missions in the same building? Instead of all the running from one location to another, why not go up one floor and clean out then take the elevator to the next floor? Would give the missions a whole new feel of attacking an org controlled installation. Hope these ideas aren't too outlandish

I like that Idea Syn! The mission could involve clearing the entire building of an Org related group etc. Would be cool to have the stages of a mission all in one building and make it a big thing.

Also I agree with the comment of interiors.

triple-post there, Jim?

I dont know about MxO losing so many subscribers.There will always be people who will play it, till SoE pulls their jacks. The thing is , as you've probably just realized (welcome to the club!), or will shortly, even if that happened they wouldn't really care. So all this MxO's end prophecy discussions are completely and utterly pointless. not to mention they have been repeated over and over again each 2 pages of this ~34 pages thread, and also in the big ole' Producer's Letter a couple months ago. with absolutely no result. 'nuff said?

NeoExcidious wrote:

triple-post there, Jim?

They were all in response to seprate posts.

Any word if the New Approach is kicking in tomorrow?

Sigma

SigmaTheta wrote:

Any word if the New Approach is kicking in tomorrow?

Sigma

Pretty sure the patch goes out tommorrow, so I assume so.

EDIT: REMEMBER TO PUT THE TEXTURES IN THE PATCH RAREBIT

Yeah, and the patch notes should be posted some time today.  Then we'll know for sure.

im Really looking forward to t ommorw i wanna see how these new changes work out.

Synapse777 wrote:

Hm, I was wondering if these org quests could and will involve new interior looking areas? I mean it would be nice to see new rooms and such, recolored floors, walls, new posters, just a general change to the missionareas from the generic areas would be real nice, even visiting Le Vrai? Dare one hope? And also maybe keep some of the missions in the same building? Instead of all the running from one location to another, why not go up one floor and clean out then take the elevator to the next floor? Would give the missions a whole new feel of attacking an org controlled installation. Hope these ideas aren't too outlandish

Well, they're not, except the "new rooms" one oddly enough.  Adding new rooms would require a repackaging of the entire district because there are a set number of building designs.  If you change a design, you have to make everyone re-download the entire map.

Rarebit old chap, this post is directed personally to you. I hope you read it. A reply to it would make me ecstatic, but I guess you get a lot of messages. Okay, it’s been a good few days since the changes were implemented and I’ve put in a good few gaming hours with the new system. Here are my observations…

1/ I was happy about the new FX timers, as I collect them from the archives and was chuffed to learn my devices would be drastically extended. I did however foresee this change making the perps people had fought tooth and nail for, virtually worthless. Having tried them out though, I think Rarebit, that you may have pitched it just about right. Five minutes isn’t too long to class as spam and a 30 second recharge time is placed just well enough to prevent spamming from any but the most determined. I think I’m going to be happy to eat my own words on this particular subject.

2/ (a)The new critical mission system is something I… not exactly loathe… but dislike intensely. Playing a game like this is all about suspension of disbelief, perhaps more so than usual, considering this is the Matrix we’re talking about. Why would all three org reps hang out within twenty feet of each other? Why would it be necessary to do the same mission about six or seven times in order to gain some items? I understand people sitting on their arses in Richland was a problem, but many mission have had specific locations (usually Westview I think, although there would’ve been nothing to stop it being in Downtown) and I think it would’ve been relatively easy to force people to move around the city as desired without taking the crit delivery away from the three regular controllers. I also understand that people simply not being bothered to do crit missions was a difficulty, so you had to have some sort of incentive system to make them do it. The reaction earlier in this thread to the mention of IS regen boosters (most people said they couldn’t be bothered to use them) was an obvious clue that the current situation wasn’t working, but I find the new solution very annoying, as getting said reward requires repeated completion of the same mission in the plot (not to mention that rewards are not level specific, they’re fixed and thus out of my reach for the near future – I presume this is meant to be an incentive to reach level 50?). At least with the arcs you could jump around as desired. Which leads me to…

(b)Why on earth is the archiving system being discarded? Without it, it will be impossible to do off-org crit missions unless you’re one of those people with enough time on their hands to have generated three level 50 characters. Also, the idea of having crit missions existing for all time as current ones is a ruiner of the aforementioned “suspension of disbelief” because we now have a timeline that defies any knowledge of quantum physics. That means we can’t have any plot specific environmental effects, such as when the General kidnapped Sati and the Matrix weather went all to buggery.

3/ The much vaunted cinematics return...  I am the first to admit that I have zero talent as an artist and almost zero when it comes to art appreciation, so people may consider my views on this less relevant than those of others. However, here are my views for what they're worth...

These are what we gave up the other stuff for?!?!?! I find them hard to look at, and I often find myself not even having a clue which characters are which, or even who the heck they are, because it looks like a detailess black and white splodge on my screen. Given that there's no voiceovers to help distinguish between people either, it makes it doubly hard. An absoloute pile of the festering "proverbial" in other words. I could quite happily live without these if we got some of the old features back. I know you can do better than this Rarebit.

4/ To finish off my feedback sandwich, a positive note. Mainly positive for me, as my main is in EPN (still smarting from that particular shutdown though). What a plotline! Shimada getting murdered by Veil is somewhat… motivating, shall we say? Death to the Cyphs! (Well the ones that exist already, seeing as their faction numbers can’t increase now.)