[9.2.2] We would like the violence to end - Vector - 1/18/08

Croesis · 01/25/2008 07:59:03

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty. That was their function, it was their leadership that determined the actions taken to achieve said function. The Machines used Cryptos to lead the group, it's Veil who gained leadership status who nurtured the violent side. Perhaps the Machines could have disbanded them when they started to become more violent but by that time EPN had formed and the Machines knew that the Cyphs were an effective group against them.

I did not agree with the Machines decision when I found out, I see why the decision was made but did not agree with how it was to be carried out and I still condemn their past and present actions even now during the war.

Judging the Machines 'nature' on what you have seen rather than what actually transpired during their decision making process is very pretentious.

Pyraci · 01/25/2008 08:06:17

We all have our reasons for the sides that we take, but all-in-all, I think Tytanya has a point. I'll not question why people align with the Machine, but there are things the Machine do that are worth questioning, just like every other side. I would also say that when the Machine and it's children need info on Zion that it can't get on it's own, or when things need to get done that the Machine can't do, the Merovingian and his traffickers suddenly become very relevant.

Procurator · 01/25/2008 08:14:51

Pyraci wrote:

but there are things the Machine do that are worth questioning, just like every other side.

That's true. As long as no one's suggesting that Machinists don't question the Machines' actions and just follow along like obedient little puppies, I'll agree with you. Unfortunately, that seems to be what Tytanya's saying, and it's getting very tiresome. Not to mention ignorant.

Tytanya_MxO · 01/25/2008 15:01:48

((ok in an attack of stupidity I made this reply on the epn event thread and got a reply .... it belongs here really for what its worth))

Well as you know I aim to displease.

Diversity remains the Merovingian trump card but also their cross to bear, no one appreciates that individuals in each org can differ in their approach and their ability. Indeed Exiles are routinely persecuted by machines exactly because they are different and individual, this Intruder arrived to a similar welcome but now miraculously (after abject failure) the machines want to play nice and chat. Historically what have we come to understand by the Machines approach to forming a mutual alliance out of need?

I have no delusions about myself or the organisation I work for, I claim no altruistic motivation for either - but is anyone seriously convinced that the best way to monitor that 1% figure in the truce was to invent a covert terrorist army? What secret organisation have they now waiting in the wings ready to do the exact opposite of what they would have us believe, or is that still what the cypherites are and why, as is conceded so many machinists appear to actively support them?

Omega0 · 02/01/2008 12:39:48

Vinia wrote:

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.

(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

CPT_Starschwar · 02/01/2008 14:44:18

Omega0 wrote:

Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))

The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

Iovai · 02/01/2008 15:04:36

((Fail.))

Pyraci · 02/01/2008 15:18:49

kou_urake wrote:

Omega0 wrote:
Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))
The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

(The architect never told us about the 1% directly, did he? Or was that at one of his meetings?)

Actually, the "dirty little secret" social experiment the Machine created started to come out when a man believed to be Morpheus set off code bombs around the city, forcefully freeing bluepills. The Zion military held to the choice as a whole. When all was said and done, the verbiage on the truce was "those that want out" would be freed.

Hypothetically, if that number fluctuated above 1%, the statute would still stand. Again, that's hypothetically. The 1% is a tested demographic group that(at the time) didn't accept the program when given a choice. But remember, numbers aren't above fluctuation.

Morpheus: "Consider that in the past 6 months we have freed more minds than in 6 years."

(Not starting a debate over what constitutes the 1%, just looking back at the trilogy for a more complete picture.)

Omega0 · 02/02/2008 02:29:58

kou_urake wrote:

Omega0 wrote:
Vinia wrote:
The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more then the allocated 1%, a figure agreed in the treaty.

Can you prove this? Have you even read the treaty? I haven't. But I do remember the Oracle asking the Architect "What about the others? ... The ones that want out." I do NOT remember her saying "The 1% that want out." If more than 1% reject the Matrix, then more than 1% should be freed.
(Sorry for posting this several days after your post, but this has always bugged me.)

((You can't actually "remember" any of that - you weren't there.))
The Cypherites' original purpose was indeed to prevent the awakening beyond the 1% that normally rejects the simulation. Any more that would awaken were, naturally, coerced. Not that I approve of the Cypherites - they're scum. But Zion was indeed limited to awaken those that *wished* to awaken - the aforementioned 1% - and no more.

That's ridiculous.

Architect: "As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby NEARLY 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level."

The number of people accept the Matrix is nearly 99%, so the number of people who reject it is slightly larger than 1%. They're not being coerced, and they should be freed. That's what the Architect agreed to.

If you still think Zion was limited to awaken exactly 1%, where is your proof? I asked for it in my last post, but I didn't get it. (As far as I know, the written treaty has never been posted in a public place. If it has, please give me the link.)

Croesis · 02/02/2008 18:58:00

Well if you are going to be pedantic about it... We go by the 1% as a general term, we know the actual number of people it pertains to can fluctuate depending on amount of people residing within the simulation at any given time. We or I also say 1% because it's quicker and easier for all concerned to say '1%' rather than '1.0000000000001% - 1.49999999999 etc... %' any more than 1.49999 etc... would mean it was closer to 98% and could not be 'nearly' 99%

If we take the wording of the Architect as gospel then 'nearly' could range from 98.5% to 98.999999999 etc... % but like I said it's easier for us Humans to say 1%.

We could go by the words of Popper:
E Pluribus Neo will continue to work for the day that everyone can choose to be free of the pods in which the Machines continue to hold 99 percent of humanity unwilling hostages under the sick guise of a "Truce."

But in an attempt at avoiding any further argument about it I'll amend my original statement.

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more than those who don't accept the simulation, a figure determined by the system and the architect to be a tad past 1%, as agreed to by Zion and the Machines in the treaty.

Omega0 · 02/02/2008 22:40:40

Vinia wrote:

Well if you are going to be pedantic about it... We go by the 1% as a general term, we know the actual number of people it pertains to can fluctuate depending on amount of people residing within the simulation at any given time. We or I also say 1% because it's quicker and easier for all concerned to say '1%' rather than '1.0000000000001% - 1.49999999999 etc... %' any more than 1.49999 etc... would mean it was closer to 98% and could not be 'nearly' 99%

If we take the wording of the Architect as gospel then 'nearly' could range from 98.5% to 98.999999999 etc... % but like I said it's easier for us Humans to say 1%.

We could go by the words of Popper:
E Pluribus Neo will continue to work for the day that everyone can choose to be free of the pods in which the Machines continue to hold 99 percent of humanity unwilling hostages under the sick guise of a "Truce."

But in an attempt at avoiding any further argument about it I'll amend my original statement.

The Cypherites were formed to prevent Zion from waking more than those who don't accept the simulation, a figure determined by the system and the architect to be a tad past 1%, as agreed to by Zion and the Machines in the treaty.

As far as I know, Zion (not including EPN) has never tried to awaken more than those who reject the simulation (if there is evidence to disprove this, I'd like to see it), and therefore there was no just cause for the Cypherites to be formed. I think the Machines realize that was unethical, which is why they covered it up for so long.

Coro · 02/02/2008 23:54:52

Could Agent Pace be described as a Biological Interface Program? I wonder whether this face-to-face had The Intruder staring in to the face of that which he seeks...