Agents

just FYI, "standard" agents wear dark green, not black. The only "Agent" to wear black was Smith, and at that point he was no longer an Agent. To see what I mean, watch Reloaded again - the scene in the Burly Brawl where the azn chick drops the tomatos and spazzes into an Agent - Smith grabs his shoulder - note that their attire is coloured differently.  Apparently the green is meant to reflect the colour of the matrix code.

Surfel wrote:

just FYI, "standard" agents wear dark green, not black. The only "Agent" to wear black was Smith, and at that point he was no longer an Agent. To see what I mean, watch Reloaded again - the scene in the Burly Brawl where the azn chick drops the tomatos and spazzes into an Agent - Smith grabs his shoulder - note that their attire is coloured differently.  Apparently the green is meant to reflect the colour of the matrix code.

The whole Matrix has the green tint.  I still say they wear black because Agent Gray wears black as does Agent Pace.  I think you're seeing green because the W. Brothers used a green tint.

Plus, Agent Pace and Agent Gray don't wear black, they wear very very very dark green.

But I like your idea that the Twins were agents from the war matrix.  The only thing would be that I find it hard to believe that any agent, be it past or present, would work directly for the Merovingian.

Plus, Agent Pace and Agent Gray don't wear black, they wear very very very dark green.

But I like your idea that the Twins were agents from the war matrix.  The only thing would be that I find it hard to believe that any agent, be it past or present, would work directly for the Merovingian.

Don't be a *CENSORED*.  The game isn't 100% accurate in view of the movies - obviously someone decided to change the colour scheme of the agents for whatever reason.

I still say that you need to go and pay attention to that particular scene in Revolutions. Side-by-side, the two colours are obviously different.

As far as we are aware the only Agents the we know for definite are the Agents of the current and previous instances (including the Commando Agents who failed to prevent the current style Agents from coming into being) where the cycle was in effect and the Seraphim Agents. I find it hard to think of the Twins as former Agents but it's not impossible to imagine them enforcing the 'hell' instance.

Apart from the physical attributes of the Seraphim Agents (Angel wings) they still looked like the generic caucasion male. Now I agree that the 'hell' versions could look quite different, but I'd hope to see the 'hell' Agents being brought into the future storyline...

Surfel wrote:

Don't be a *CENSORED*.  The game isn't 100% accurate in view of the movies - obviously someone decided to change the colour scheme of the agents for whatever reason.

I still say that you need to go and pay attention to that particular scene in Revolutions. Side-by-side, the two colours are obviously different.

No one cares about the subtle difference in Agent suit's color.  We're here to talk about whether or not the Twins were Agents of the 2nd version of the Matrix, the "Hell" version. 

Huh?  What's this about Commando Agents?  I remember OF them, but I don't remember them.

I think he means the guys in Pandora's Box Three, the ones who look like military commandos of some sort. The text of the special report doohickeys they drop even mention something about them getting attacked and/or deleted by the standard guys-in-suits Agents we're the most familiar with from the movies.

Now, if the Agents from the Paradise Matrix were angels, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Agents in the Hell Matrix that followed it might be demons of some sort, or is my passion for urban fantasy just getting the better of me?

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

Cervacius wrote:

Huh?  What's this about Commando Agents?  I remember OF them, but I don't remember them.

I think he means the guys in Pandora's Box Three, the ones who look like military commandos of some sort. The text of the special report doohickeys they drop even mention something about them getting attacked and/or deleted by the standard guys-in-suits Agents we're the most familiar with from the movies.

Now, if the Agents from the Paradise Matrix were angels, wouldn't it stand to reason that the Agents in the Hell Matrix that followed it might be demons of some sort, or is my passion for urban fantasy just getting the better of me?

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

Roukan wrote:

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

GamiSB wrote:

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

I believe he was testing. Finding what works. Humans cannot have subliminal peace, so the next logical step was darkness and pain. That's what he means by grotesqueries, a world worse than the one we actually live in. It could mean hell with Gargoyles, Succubus', Vampires, Ookami.. or it could just be a war torn world. Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle. But I think that Programs can't just change at will, they have to be introduced as they are. Then again, it is just code. All the exiles could have been peaceful angels and suddenly wanted to change when they turned Exile.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

Vinia wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

I don't think the Architect created the Oracle, she was just the intuitive program that stumbled upon the solution. As for the Merovingian, isn't he believed to be the OS for the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' version of the Simulation?

The 'hell' version need not be 'hell' in the biblical sense of the word. A world perpetually torn apart by war and suffering could be seen as hell....

Didn't the Oracle say that stories of ghosts etc.. are created by people witnessing the system assimilating a program doing what it shouldn't be doing? In any case, who's to say that Lupines and Vampires weren't created to influence Mankind in their actions rather than to simply terrorise them?

I doubt we have seen the 'Agents' of the 'hell'/'imperfect'/'historically accurate'/'grotesque' simulation....

We'd have to find where it states what the Merovingian was, cause now it's bugging me =P. Most people assume the hell matrix is based off of hell because the Agents of the heavenly matrix were Angels. =]

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

This could easily be refering to a "Hell" version of The Matrix. Our "grotesqueries", literally meaning things that are grotesque, could refer to ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, etc.

Yeah, untill you recall whats showing on all the screens behind Neo and Archie once he says that. No flames and men with pitchforks but rather just simply our history. Also programs such as Agents and the Architect are not intersted in hidden meanings behind there words. What they say is exactly what they mean thus he isn't alluding to a world fit to punsh us for our sins but rather just a world based of them.

Also what in the world would posses you to install all of your life support into a system that wants to punish and destroy them? It would be like planting a corn feild in the desert.

I believe he was testing. Finding what works. Humans cannot have subliminal peace, so the next logical step was darkness and pain. That's what he means by grotesqueries, a world worse than the one we actually live in. It could mean hell with Gargoyles, Succubus', Vampires, Ookami.. or it could just be a war torn world. Obviously he didn't plant the whole crop into that Matrix, but it was enough of a failure for him to pull the plug and create The Oracle. But I think that Programs can't just change at will, they have to be introduced as they are. Then again, it is just code. All the exiles could have been peaceful angels and suddenly wanted to change when they turned Exile.

It would make sense if Ookami was a previous Agent of the 'grotesque' Matrix, as with gargoyle. I believe the Merovingian said he came from that matrix as well, or it might have been the first one.

This is assumeing that the second version was a "hell" which isn't anything like what the Architect says. The idea that vampires, lupins, sucubi were past Agents as they were or even that they had some kind of purpose in this second version is ridiculous. What do these creatures have to do with our history other then myth? Nothing. These programs were either former programs that looked simular to the programs we have in our current version that have become corrupt (see the Oracle's explination in reloaded) or something simular to what I sudgested in my first post. But its clear that they were not implamented as they were and that the "hell" version was something out of a horror movie.

I understand why you might see the idea of the second version of The Matrix resembling mythical Hell unlucky, and I agree that The Architect does not state such, but look at the first version. The only thing The Architect states about the first version of The Matrix is its perfection and flawlessness. Yet, we learn from MxO's contintuation of the storyline, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the first version has a resemblance to idealogical Heaven, with its angelic agents and so forth. This being true, why couldn't the second version of The Matrix resemble idealogical Hell? Where else would these demonic exiles originate? Also, you stated that on the screens in The Architect's room, it shows Earth's history, which is true. But what does this have to do with the second version of The Matrix? When the Architect is explaining the multiple versions to Neo, and correct me if I am also wrong here, he never refers to the screens. I believe the screens are merely supposed to show that The Architect's present purpose is to serve as a form of a watcher, i.e. The menu introduction to The Animatrix, one of Chapter 8's (MxO) cinematics, etc.

Attempting to stay on topic, we know that agents for V1 were Seraphim, the agents for V3.4 were Commando Agents, and and agents for V3.5 are G-Men Agents. But what are the agents for V2 (under debate) and V3.0-3.3?

I understand why you might see the idea of the second version of The Matrix resembling mythical Hell unlucky, and I agree that The Architect does not state such, but look at the first version. The only thing The Architect states about the first version of The Matrix is its perfection and flawlessness. Yet, we learn from MxO's contintuation of the storyline, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the first version has a resemblance to idealogical Heaven, with its angelic agents and so forth. This being true, why couldn't the second version of The Matrix resemble idealogical Hell? Where else would these demonic exiles originate? Also, you stated that on the screens in The Architect's room, it shows Earth's history, which is true. But what does this have to do with the second version of The Matrix? When the Architect is explaining the multiple versions to Neo, and correct me if I am also wrong here, he never refers to the screens. I believe the screens are merely supposed to show that The Architect's present purpose is to serve as a form of a watcher, i.e. The menu introduction to The Animatrix, one of Chapter 8's (MxO) cinematics, etc.

Attempting to stay on topic, if you're trying to determine the agents of version two in MxO, look for a suited character. Both the agents from versions one and three wear some kind of suit.

The first version is an exception to the other three. It's based souly on the Machines interpritation of what a "paradise" is. The second and thrid version however were not based off an interpritation of "hell" but simply our history. As I said before no where in history do vampires, or any kind of demonic creature appear other then in myth. Using such beings as the guardians and protectors doens't make sence especially when you are attempting to create a world that people would accept. If anything you put fear in them but thats all.

The screens shown behind them are changed through out the scean and are linked to the current conversation and used to help the viewer understand what exatly they are speaking about. When it's simply Neo and Archie talking its remains on Neo. When he explains what Neo is it shows Neo's life and what lead him to where he was. When it comes to the history they show images of our history. When it comes to the choice and explaing what he must do we see all the people in the Matrix which for the first 5 were reason enough to choose the door to the source. Finally we see Trinity when the Architect shows Neo why he won't choose that door. As I said the screens change to help us understand as viewers.

The first version is an exception to the other three. It's based souly on the Machines interpritation of what a "paradise" is. The second and thrid version however were not based off an interpritation of "hell" but simply our history. As I said before no where in history do vampires, or any kind of demonic creature appear other then in myth. Using such beings as the guardians and protectors doens't make sence especially when you are attempting to create a world that people would accept. If anything you put fear in them but thats all.

The screens shown behind them are changed through out the scean and are linked to the current conversation and used to help the viewer understand what exatly they are speaking about. When it's simply Neo and Archie talking its remains on Neo. When he explains what Neo is it shows Neo's life and what lead him to where he was. When it comes to the history they show images of our history. When it comes to the choice and explaing what he must do we see all the people in the Matrix which for the first 5 were reason enough to choose the door to the source. Finally we see Trinity when the Architect shows Neo why he won't choose that door. As I said the screens change to help us understand as viewers.

You seem confident in your understanding of the different versions, but what makes you so sure? You are the only one I've ever heard to post this idea, and everyone else, including extreme The Matrix fans like myself, support the idea the the versions are 1: Heaven, 2: Hell, 3: prime of human civilization. Where do you think the demonic exiles come from? Please tell the inspirations to your ideas.

It was one man that said the world revolved around the sun wasn't it?

I'm confident because I understand that in any kind of decent writing everything has a reason and a meaning behind it, especially in a story like the Matrix. Thus their must be a reason for the changing screens in select sections of the Architect's explanation and key ideas that the W bros are trying to address without filling the movie with details. Three of these segments are there to show and help explain something to Neo/the viewers yet this forth one, the one that mentions the past versions of the Matrix, how the second was built off of human history, and the images displayed during this very explination, is skipped over and ignored. I'm confident in my idea because unlike other theories of a "hell Matrix mine doesn't try to twist things to make it work and ignore certain areas but rather addresses the issue directly as its presented by the guy that built the *CENSORED* things. Is my idea right? No idea, but at the least I'm sure that this "Hell" Matrix was never apart of the second version and if it did exist it was then apart of the first.

I should also mention though that I've long sense abandoned any faith in an "extream Matrix fan's" explanation for things because most follow the same pattern. The fan has their own idea and twists what they need to in order to make it work and then ignore the rest. Seraph being a former One, Reinsertion, Zion being in a Matrix, etc. Granted this is no reason for my own ideas being right or wrong just my take on the "facts".

As for where these exiles came from, this was explained in the second film.

"There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing."

They are simply former programs from past Matrixes that have become corrupted. They were never intended to appear as they do and their appearance is simply a bi-product of them remaining in the system.

And if anyone feels this has gotten off track Im mearly explaining why Sucubi, vamps, and lupines are not past Agents. If anything Version Two had the exiles that are in box 3 which were then switched out for our current Agents between Version 2 and now.

Architect: The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me because it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another - an intuitive program, initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother.

1. Perfect Matrix
2. Historical Matrix
3. Historical Matrix built on choice

No mention of a "Hell" version of the Matrix in sight. (OMG MXO CONTRADICTION!!!11!1!1!!1!) But lets humor the idea that if there was one and that this"Hell" Matrix is actully one in the same as the "perfect" one. After all balance is needed so if there is a heaven their must be a hell. In fact it can be taken almost as far as explainging certain peoples strong convictions within the Matrix that their is a heaven and hell. Perhaps these people are subconsiously sliping their minds into these past constructs.

 I'm confident in my idea because unlike other theories of a "hell Matrix mine doesn't try to twist things to make it work and ignore certain areas but rather addresses the issue directly as its presented by the guy that built the *CENSORED* things. Is my idea right? No idea, but at the least I'm sure that this "Hell" Matrix was never apart of the second version and if it did exist it was then apart of the first.

I should also mention though that I've long sense abandoned any faith in an "extream Matrix fan's" explanation for things because most follow the same pattern. The fan has their own idea and twists what they need to in order to make it work and then ignore the rest. Seraph being a former One, Reinsertion, Zion being in a Matrix, etc. Granted this is no reason for my own ideas being right or wrong just my take on the "facts".

As for where these exiles came from, this was explained in the second film.

"There are programs running all over the place. The ones doing their job, doing what they were meant to do, are invisible. You'd never even know they were here. But the other ones, well, we hear about them all the time. Every time you've heard someone say they saw a ghost, or an angel. Every story you've ever heard about vampires, werewolves, or aliens is the system assimilating some program that's doing something they're not supposed to be doing."

They are simply former programs from past Matrixes that have become corrupted. They were never intended to appear as they do and their appearance is simply a bi-product of them remaining in the system.

And if anyone feels this has gotten off track Im mearly explaining why Sucubi, vamps, and lupines are not past Agents. If anything Version Two had the exiles that are in box 3 which were then switched out for our current Agents between Version 2 and now.

You make a very good point, but in support of the "Hell" idea, I have this to say:

The archived constructs in the game supposed to be instances of The Matrix that no longer exist. Two of these archived constructs are Achencourt and Widow's Moor. Not only do these instances contain Gargoyle, Lupines, and Blood-Drinkers, but they also have things that show a destroyed city, i.e. destroyed and rusty buildings, shopping carts, fences, etc. Couldn't this be the war torn cityscape of V2 of The Matrix? Isn't is a little ironic that that those programs' corruption happened to make them look like the monsters from the ideas of man? On the screens while V2 is being explained are Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, war, sickness, death, and radiant-burnt victims of an atomic bomb. Wouldn't all of these combined into one setting create practically a Hell on Earth? The Merovingian and Persephone have also implied that the Twins (ghosts), Cujo (werewolf), Vlad (vampire) , and other supernatural programs such as the present ones are from V2, but that is slightly opinionitive.

You make a very good point, but in support of the "Hell" idea, I have this to say:

The archived constructs in the game supposed to be instances of The Matrix that no longer exist. Two of these archived constructs are Achencourt and Widow's Moor. Not only do these instances contain Gargoyle, Lupines, and Blood-Drinkers, but they also have things that show a destroyed city, i.e. destroyed and rusty buildings, shopping carts, fences, etc. Couldn't this be the war torn cityscape of V2 of The Matrix? Isn't is a little ironic that that those programs' corruption happened to make them look like the monsters from the ideas of man? On the screens while V2 is being explained are Communist Russia, Nazi Germany, war, sickness, death, and radiant-burnt victims of an atomic bomb. Wouldn't all of these combined into one setting create practically a Hell on Earth? The Merovingian and Persephone have also implied that the Twins (ghosts), Cujo (werewolf), Vlad (vampire) , and other supernatural programs such as the present ones are from V2, but that is slightly opinionitive.

The archived constructs are hardly proof that V2 was a bombed out baren wasteland filled with blood drunks and lupines. In fact they only show us two things. A burnt down church and a cemetary. Something you can find in any time period. Also if I remember correctly the lupines and the other exiles there are not native but rather those constructs are used now as holding cells for them by the Merv. Next the Architect doesn't say that he built a world combineing man's history  into one but only that it was based off of it. The same idea was used for V3 and we arn't liveing in another "Hell" Matrix now are we? No, it a 1999 world that was built from what the Machines had recorded of how history had the world progress back when it was 1999 in the real.

As for why these exiles look like man's myths. Whos to say they aren't the bases of those myths? Another possiblity is that its just the effect of the corrupted code. The simulation needs its programs to maintain some kind of human figure and so the mutations are limited by a much deeper inprinted code.

Fractor wrote:

If the machines wanted to reflect on human history and not myth why did they create seraphim to serve as agents in the heaven version? The machines could have seen it as illogical to use angels as enforcers of the matrix if they don't exist.

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

GamiSB wrote:

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

Now I have a question. Sorry if I missed it, but are you basing this off fact or is it just well versed speculation?

I'm baseing this off of what the Architect tells Neo in Reloaded and what we know of V1. Broken down the speach goes like this.

V1 - "The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being."

V1 was a perfect world that's down fall was lead because of the inabblity to accept that world and man's (for lack of a better term) "sinful nature".

V2 - "Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure."

V2 was then created based off of man kinds history which was used to create the world we have now. The key word in what the Architect says is "Accurately" not figerativly or symbolicly. If the later two were the case then yes a "Hell" Matrix would be possible but since it is not and the crap side of man was only used to build the same world we had in 1999. This however was not enough and the lack of choice once again brought it all down.

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

The Architect built V1 with nothing else in mind but "Man's paradise". That is why such beings as Serphim were used to control it because they saw that man's most common idea of paradise was a "heaven". The second version however did not have paradise or a hell in mind but was built souly off of man's history. Not man's myths but its history, something that lupines, vamps, angels, and demons are in no way apart of.

Now I have a question. Sorry if I missed it, but are you basing this off fact or is it just well versed speculation?

I'm baseing this off of what the Architect tells Neo in Reloaded and what we know of V1. Broken down the speach goes like this.

V1 - "The first Matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect, it was a work of art - flawless, sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being."

V1 was a perfect world that's down fall was lead because of the inabblity to accept that world and man's (for lack of a better term) "sinful nature".

V2 - "Thus, I redesigned it based on your history to more accurately reflect the varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was again frustrated by failure."

V2 was then created based off of man kinds history which was used to create the world we have now. The key word in what the Architect says is "Accurately" not figerativly or symbolicly. If the later two were the case then yes a "Hell" Matrix would be possible but since it is not and the crap side of man was only used to build the same world we had in 1999. This however was not enough and the lack of choice once again brought it all down.

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

GamiSB wrote:

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

I was under the impression the heaven version didn't work because the AgentSeraphim abused their devastating powers.

On what you said though, Gami, vampires, werewolves, aliens, etc etc, are all born from what the machines would view as distasteful and even grotesque ideas and beliefs - the architect did say "the varying grotesqueries", so he wasn't just referring to war and other nasty behaviour.

Given that every program created has a purpose, then logically it has to follow that the Twins, Cain and Abel, et al were created for some specific reason. And given that they have the traits of ghosts, vampires, werewolves, etc, then logically it must also follow that they were created to "give life" to those beliefs- the problem with their existence being that alot of people DON'T believe in vamps, w'wolves, ghosts, etc.  And right there you have a major problem - it's already been seen that lack of belief in a core tenet of the matrix (as a program) causes a rejection of whatever the subject of belief is - so you get people who can see through walls, hit really hard, basically do things the program shouldn't allow. Whilst not believing in the existence of supernatural beings wouldn't grant you any stuponfucious (penny arcade ftw " width="15" height="15" /> ) powers, it would still prove problematic for the system.

I'm guessing the version of the matrix that encompassed such beings as those didn't just run into problems from the lack of choice, it also ran into problems because rational folk were able to see through some of the aspects of it and see what it was really all about.

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

Roukan wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Roukan wrote:

If you take it like you should take hollywood movies, based means he contorted it to fit the time and how he saw fit. Obviously it wasn't like this 1999, but it wasn't hell either. Humans couldn't take bliss or suffering, but a nice mixture of both. The Architect regardless would have saw that after the taking down of the 2nd iteration, but the Oracle offered the choice solution which led to the Third Version working.

Which brings me to the question, could the hell or heaven iteration work if the choice was there still?

Of course it wasn't exactly like this one I'm sure every isntance has had a few changes here and there. But to assume that the intire place was a "Hell" is just silly and shows just how much the popular ideas and rumors people had after the trilogy have taken over what was actully said.

Your second question is one I've also wonderd and really all ive come up with is a simple idea. The first version would be a no because of the second reason it failed. No one could keep up with the rules. The second version, maybe. We don't know enough about it's rules other then what it was based off of to decided though.

I was under the impression the heaven version didn't work because the AgentSeraphim abused their devastating powers.

Actually the First Matrix didn't work because Humans couldn't accept it, it wasn't "real"

From The Matrix:

Agent Smith: Did you know that the first Matrix was designed to be a perfect human world? Where none suffered, where everyone would be happy. It was a disaster. No one would accept the program. Entire crops were lost. Some believed we lacked the programming language to describe your perfect world. But I believe that, as a species, human beings define their reality through suffering and misery. The perfect world was a dream that your primitive cerebrum kept trying to wake up from. Which is why the Matrix was redesigned to this: the peak of your civilization.

Its both as I explained earlier. Lack of accepting (see Smith and Architect quote) mixed with lack of obeying (Malphas event).

And *CENSORED* triple post. Sorry about that.

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

GamiSB wrote:

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

If that picture wasn't enough to convince you, then you trully are ignorant. V1 being Heaven and Hell? How would demonic creatures make any world a paradise?

Ah I forgot this was the internet and its almost impossible to convey sarcasm. Facts still stand that other then what's been said in MxO the trilogy never hinted at a "Hell" Matrix but the fact that MxO says there was is enough for me to realzie I was wrong. Actully I think I sorta made that point in that first sentence. Those pics don't mention what version Ookami is refering to but I do realize that it is most likely the second version, although, "That version? A world built on human fantasies" -Ookami, makes me wonder.

As for how a heaven and hell would work, same idea behind most relgious ideas of the afterlife. Do good and dont *CENSORED* off the supream being you stay in paradise. Screw up and you burn. Balance and all that, something the Matrix needs to remain stable.

monkeymanx8 wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

@ Roukan: 

Ah, so I wasn't imageing that event. Oh well as I said in the first post MxO CONTRADICTION!!!!!!!. GG Rarebit

But I do notice a lack of explination as to which version she is refering to. V1 mixed Heaven and hell still has a breath in it!

If that picture wasn't enough to convince you, then you trully are ignorant. V1 being Heaven and Hell? How would demonic creatures make any world a paradise?

Ah I forgot this was the internet and its almost impossible to convey sarcasm. Facts still stand that other then what's been said in MxO the trilogy never hinted at a "Hell" Matrix but the fact that MxO says there was is enough for me to realzie I was wrong. Actully I think I sorta made that point in that first sentence. Those pics don't mention what version Ookami is refering to but I do realize that it is most likely the second version, although, "That version? A world built on human fantacasies" -Ookami, makes me wonder.

As for how a heaven and hell would work, same idea behind most relgious ideas of the afterlife. Do good and dont *CENSORED* off the supream being you stay in paradise. Screw up and you burn. Balance and all that, something the Matrix needs to remain stable.

When Reloaded came out I assumed a war torn world of pain and suffering, but that would be all human causing. When that event happened, I accepted it as canon of MxO.

I see everything in a much different light than most people. While MxO's direction leads to this, we don't know and won't ever know exactly what the Wachowskis had in mind for the 2nd version of the Matrix. I play this game based on what Rarebit has told us the story to lead to, and combine it with what was said in the movies to speculate.