Is it time?

ShiXinFeng · 09/28/2007 10:55:30

Is it time for EPN and CYPH to end? Should the story go back to dealing with just three orgs?

In my opinion, whether this war were to continue or be put to bed in the next subchapter, the EPN and CYPH orgs are not much more than a distraction. At best, they can be blamed by the mainline orgs in the event the war does end quickly ("It was EPN's/CYPH's doing all the bad stuffs!), but that not a strong tether to keep their stories going.

So, as an EPN'er, I am saying that we should be folded back into Zion, and the CYPHS should return to the Machines. If there is room for "terrorist activity" in the future of the story, then let it be perpetrated by LE characters like Veil or the Kid. Let the main orgs really start to fight it out. Or not, depending on their choice.

And I don't it really alters anyone's RP; the factions/players can still hold the same beliefs. But Rarebit could concentrate more on plots and stories for just three orgs, rather than five.

Thoughts?

Procurator · 09/28/2007 11:23:32

I can't speak for EPN, but as far as Cypherites go...

On one hand I think their org should be disbanded. It doesn't have a purpose anymore, whatever its members half-proclaim (that is, they say they have a purpose but don't explain what it is). It's just a murderous, evil offshoot of the Machinists. Recently all the assignments they've been given are things that the Machinists should've done; the numerous operations that the Machine organisation has to perform are shared seemingly at random between the Machinists and the Cypherites. The Cypherites are pointless.

On the other hand, I really don't want the Cypherites joining the Machinists! Imagine what my organisation would look like if it is full of murderous, evil <insert offensive word here>. In all the arguments we've had, we've been able to stand out and say: 'You may think we're evil, but look at the Cypherites. They're the bad guys!' And it's true. But if they join us, our org's credibility goes down the toilet.

Unless, that is, everyone agrees to RP it. In that case, we ignore the game mechanics, and the ex-Cypherite factions don't actually ally themselves with the Machinists. We've still got good and evil, with a clear distinction despite the lack of CYPH tag. That might couse problems with the relationships Machinists have built up with our liaisons, though: at least one of our liaisons hates the Cypherites, and even if the org drops their unique tag their characters won't change. How could we possibly work together?

I know! We let the Cypherite org continue. But we get a public admission by Veil, Cryptos and all their liaisons that they don't actually have a purpose. SMILEY

Croesis · 09/28/2007 11:36:45

Problem is that these 'splinter' orgs, at least with the Cyphs, have a largely different viewpoint to Machinists many of which conflict. You cannot disband an idea. The only thing linking them together is as Proc touched on, game mechanics. If it were possible, mechanic and manpower-wise in creating more missions, Cyphs and EPN would have their own controller missions and tags... Cyphs will always be Cyphs, EPN will always be Terrorists.. and EPN!

ShiXinFeng · 09/28/2007 11:46:03

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?

But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.

And EPN's activities, even though the splinter org has been held at arms length by Zion, aren't really all that far from what many Zionists want to do now. . .

Gerik · 09/28/2007 11:49:03

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?
But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.
And EPN's activities, even though the splinter org has been held at arms length by Zion, aren't really all that far from what many Zionists want to do now. . .

I think what Proc was saying was that he doesn't want to work or be in the same org as SOME of the Cyph factions. You know... like those ones that... yeah, those guys... lol

Procurator · 09/28/2007 11:53:28

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Heh, so what you guys are saying is the splinter orgs have been separate too long to be reintegrated? That there's no way they can shift their perspectives (maintain their RP) from within the parent orgs?

Yup. Before the CYPH tag became available, there were a few hardliners within the Machinist org, RP'ing that they were Cypherites and such. That was manageable: a few rogue elements within the organisation (not to mention hardocre RP'ers, who managed to pretend they weren't even part of the Machine org).

But now we've got a load of Cypherites, and the vast majority of them have a very different viewpoint to the Machinists, now that they've had so long to play out their ideals. Reintegration is impossible unless they suddenly become sensible, moderate Machinists. SMILEY

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

But nobody really differentiates the CYPH activities from the Machine objectives! It's common knowledge that the CYPH's are doing what the Machines want them to do.

What you say is true, and unfortunate. They both follow the Machines (Cypherites will say they follow Veil, but she's being paid), but they behave in very different ways. I think the Machinists do what they're told (within reason - this isn't an argument about Machinists being sheep SMILEY

) in an efficient manner, while Cypherites get the job done but in a very messy way, invariably involving too much bloodshed and pain.

I hope people can differentiate between Machinists and Cypherites, even if they have the same leaders.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 11:57:29

I'm sick and tired of EPN being called "Terrorist" I can not think of a single thing done by anyone in EPN that could even remotely be considered "Terrorist" except by a lone renegade operating outside the sanctions of the EPN sub-Org. On the other hand, the Cypherites are guilty of numerous and heinous acts of terrorism in and out of the Matrix. The whole philosophy started with the cowardly terrorist whose name the sub-Org now bears. So, get this straight: Cypherites are terrorists, EPN is not, never has been. In fact, EPN was started as a counter-terrorism sub-org, with the aim of stopping the Cypherites from continued acts of terrorism. Anyone who disagrees has delusional misconceptions of history.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 12:04:35

Each side have their own terms for the other, their own viewpoints. It is personal opinion. You call Cypherites terrorists, I call EPN terrorists. In most cases they are doing what they think is best, Cyphs protecting Blues, EPN trying to free them, it is all perception. Zion calls us Toasters, we call them cave monkeys.
They are just names, which may or may not have a basis in fact, I do not heat up slices of bread, Zionites can be civil. I see EPN using code bombs to locate morpheus as acts of terrorism, you see Cyphs killing Reds and Blues for the protection of the majority of Bluepills as acts of terrorism (as do I, I have no love for the Cypherites and their overzealous actions....)

Anyway it was meant as a friendly jibe, take it as you want, but you don't see me on a rant whenever someone calls Machinists toasters or whatever witty names you can come up with.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 12:23:33

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

Gerik · 09/28/2007 12:28:48

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

TaeCross or whatever his name was, wasn't he a liason for EPN on Rec?

Vaico · 09/28/2007 12:33:56

AFGM1 wrote:

PS10N wrote:
EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.
TaeCross or whatever his name was, wasn't he a liason for EPN on Rec?

Yes, till he was fired. His code bombs came after.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 12:38:14

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

I already mentioned that I had no care for Cypherites, so trying to convince me of their blatant acts of terrorism isn't going to change my mind and my perspective. I see EPN, (Ok so I got the term wrong, pulse devices rather than bombs, but they are hacker tools ie tools used to hack elements of the simulation and could cause damage to bluepills) as the bad guys here, willing to try to free a race and by doing so commit genocide of another intelligent race. Zion disregarded the truce ever since they started plans for New Zion, straight after Neo's death, long before the Machines overwrote anyone permanently.

Facts in this are irrelevant anyway, it is my perception, I am allowed my own thoughts and I spoke them allowed. We can go back and forth reminding ourselves of each sides good and bad points but it will not change our beliefs.

Procurator · 09/28/2007 12:38:28

PS10N wrote:

EPN never used code bombs. Ever. Not one. It's this kind of delusion that leads to the blatant misrepresentation of Matrix history again and again. The lone terrorist Taecross did, once, after having been removed from the organization, without order, sanction or approval from EPN. The devices used to locate Morpheus were Code Pulse Devices, not bombs. Get your facts straight. Cypherites have planted bombs on ships to kill people in their sleep. They have removed jacks from operatives who were still in the Matrix, the lowest and most cowardly form of murder known to Redpill society. They have sent ships loaded with explosives crashing into the gates of Zion, killing innocent dock workers. Worst of all, they are betrayers of humanity who willingly accept delusion over reality. Because they can't handle reality, they are willing to murder anyone who can face reality and they have no compunctions about betraying people to genocide. EPN are heroes of humanity, willing to stand up for the Truth and fight for the survival of real human lives. Cypherites are cowardly terrorists, unwilling to face any truth, pushing their delusions and psychosis on others, bent on facilitating the wholesale murder of whoever isn't willing to be a duped pawn of the Machines. The Machines broke the Truce the moment they committed the first mind-*CENSORED* by overwriting an individual, and the Cypherites are their tools.

...

Isn't this getting a little off-topic? This thread is OOC, and the question is whether or not the sub-orgs should be disbanded. You don't need to list the Cypherites' many crimes, and you certainly don't need to state your opinions about EPN being champions of humanity (though I thank you for making me laugh).

Cypherites are terrorists because they operated outside the Truce. EPN are terrorists for the same reason. Whether they used code bombs or not is irrelevant.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 12:46:36

Hmm... I apologise Shi+Xin+Feng, I didn't mean for your thread and legitimate question to be carried off topic...
....and thanks for saying in one sentence that I tried to say in two posts Proc. Sometimes I have trouble with being articulate with words, as you can see I tend to over compensate when trying to get my viewpoint across!

Garu · 09/28/2007 12:50:05

It's says a lot when even Procurator tells you to chill when it comes to hating on Cyphs! LOL

In all seriousness though, I don't care much for Cypherites for the same reasons that many other machinists don't. However, in all their uselessness, everyone deserves the right to function within a group of like-minded souls. Who are we to judge how unnecessary they are when they themselves firmly believe they have purpose and reason to band together.

Cypherites have proven to be useful from time to time. While I don't particularly care for their methods or hobbies, they have proven to be of some benefit to the Machines. Otherwise, why would they keep them around? In the end, there is a reason the Cypherites are similar to Machinists and EPN with Zion. It is because they are splinter groups that its natural that they have those similarities but its in how they execute those ideas that separates them greatly.

EPN and Cypherites are the radicals and their acts reflect it. They have a reason to be and it's not within our rights to tell them different.

MetaLogic · 09/28/2007 13:03:02

I don't think the splinter orgs should re-merge with their main counterparts, I mean on Recursion the majority of machinist hate Cypherites and would probably not let them join the machinist org without some outcry. I don't know whether or not Zion would allow the EPNs to rejoin their ranks, probably, probably not. As for myself, I wouldn't want to rejoin the Machinist ranks, I want to stay Cypherite.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 13:15:43

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

Gerik · 09/28/2007 13:26:25

She said she was kidding. >_>

Garu · 09/28/2007 13:28:52

I can't tell you why other people consider EPN terrorists, I can only tell you what I believe:

Since its inception, EPN has never stood for the Truce. Its rebellious actions led to Zion having to abandon the organization in fear of Machine retalliation on its city. Its very existence jeopardized the fragile peace between man and machine. EPN acts with no regards for peace despite its claim to having the same objectives of Neo.

As machinists we view Neo's final acts as a sacrifice towards the future of all beings. His selflessness gave us a peace that neither side was familiar with and bridge towards something better and more mutual. I've seen many members of EPN spit on the Truce with my own eyes. They have acted against the system and created an unnecessary friction. That makes them terrorists. Maybe not terrorists against a people but they seek to terrorize the system they feel has emprisoned humanity.

Recently they sought to attack the very lines that power the Machines which could have jeopardized the population of the power plant as a result.

It may not be the truth you see but then again we all see what we want to which isn't always necessarily the truth itself.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 13:39:21

Indeed, it was meant as a friendly jibe. Nothing more.

I can admit to being wrong about CPD's. With a bit of research I now have a clearer picture of their nature. The only thing that CPD's could possibly damage is the simulation itself by their very nature of hacking into it. Hacking is often quite damaging thus, in my view, damage to the Matrix is a possibility if only temporary. CPD's were only a small part in why I believe what I believe about EPN. Garu has quite eloquently written a few other points which also maintain my belief.

Procurator · 09/28/2007 13:42:06

PS10N wrote:

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

You're still off-topic. Heck, I shouldn't even be replying to this.

But now you're just being silly. There's no evidence that CPDs don't harm the System. They're not as dangerous as code bombs, but they utilise serious exploits in the Matrix and aren't allowed. Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists.

And, seriously, are you IC or OOC? 'Cos your arguments seem to be full of spiteful opinion. Unless you really, truly side with EPN in real life, I can only assume you're IC... which is inappropriate for this thread.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 13:42:56

Acting against the system and causing friction are an act of terrorism? Better arrest all the workers who have ever gone on strike for being terrorists then. All the people exercising their constitutional rights to protest or rally? Terrorists! That Ghandi guy, he was such a terrorist! Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Gary Kasparov, Homer Plessy, Harriet Tubman, Nelson Mandella, Mikael Gorbachev, Linda Brown, Ruby Bridges, all Terrorists by your definition.

Cypherites, the pawns of the Machines, were breaking the Truce before EPN even existed. The Machines were breaking the Truce with their first overwritten Redpill. The truce is ONE WORD "peace." Cypherites murdered innocents under Machine orders before EPN even existed, thus breaking the Truce. Machines overwrote Redpills, thus violating the Truce. Building a new city harmed no one and was entirely a peaceful act. It was used as an excuse because the Machines didn't honor the Truce from day one. The Architect is a senile, malfunctioning, obsolete program who didn't have the authority to declare the Truce over in the first place and those who follow him are delusional pawns.

"Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists."

Now you're saying that all criminals are terrorists. You could work for the Bush administration with that mind-set.

Procurator · 09/28/2007 13:45:43

The System, with a capital ess. As in: the Matrix. Harming the Matrix is against the law. There are no rights of protest within the Machines' domain. Constitutional rights? *Laughs.*

PS10N · 09/28/2007 13:51:43

What law?

Garu · 09/28/2007 13:53:48

PS10N wrote:

Acting against the system and causing friction are an act of terrorism? Better arrest all the workers who have ever gone on strike for being terrorists then. All the people exercising their constitutional rights to protest or rally? Terrorists! That Ghandi guy, he was such a terrorist! Martin Luther King Jr., Rosa Parks, Gary Kasparov, Homer Plessy, Harriet Tubman, Nelson Mandella, Mikael Gorbachev, Linda Brown, Ruby Bridges, all Terrorists by your definition.

"Plus you're ignoring my previous point: EPN are terrorists not because of how extreme they are but because they act outside the law. They're outlawed, they were disavowed by Zion, ergo they're terrorists."

Now you're saying that all criminals are terrorists. You could work for the Bush administration with that mind-set.

Yes. You may not approve of the System but its the same system keeping millions of people alive regardless of the manner in which they do so.

ShiXinFeng · 09/28/2007 13:58:02

Woah, hang on. If you guys want to debate terrorism/freedom fighter arguments, please go start a new thread.

This thread was started to get a dialog going about continuing the EPN and CYPH sub-orgs under the present and future storylines.

And I really think that, if reintegrated, their (our) thinking would come around. We could still be radicals within the parent orgs. We could continue to "consider" ourselves as being sub-orgs, but for the interest of the story and the writing, I think much more could get done without the distraction of the sub-orgs. There is nothing that they contribute to furthering the story that Zionist and Machinist couldn't do now.

CPT_Starschwar · 09/28/2007 14:02:58

PS10N wrote:

No wonder the forums are full of delusion - the lies are told again and again until they are substituted for the truth in peoples' minds. Code Pulse Devices have no negative side effects at all, Bluepills can't even see them. I have yet to hear evidence, even hearsay or circumstantial, of a single act of terrorism by anyone in EPN. So, in the simplest way it can be said, people who call EPN terrorists are either deluded or liars.

Machine Archive 4.2, see for yourself - EPNS used code bombs. Not to mention a recent live event where the Kid wanted to use code pulses to disable sentinels (not that it worked), and one where Shimada used them to damage the General's helipads. The EPN leadership intended to use them in a harmful manner - end of story.

Back on topic: I'm against re-merging the splinter orgs. Most Machinists (on Syntax) hate Cypherites and will have nothing to do with them. They're coming from a very different place than the Machines proper and will not mix well with the rest of the Organization.

As for EPN, they defied the Council during the Truce to go and do their own thing - it will take time for them to be accepted back, assuming that the Kid would even want that to happen.

MatrixRefugee · 09/28/2007 15:10:00

I could see the Cyphs disbanding, since their purpose is over and, if I remember correctly, wasn't Cryptos told there was little to no chance for anyone to be reinserted into the Matrix? The EPN, however, are still awaiting the return of Neo/the One, and with the Truce over, I imagine it may not be long before the search for the next One will begin.

CPT_Starschwar · 09/28/2007 16:17:29

The Cypherites serve a new purpose: sabotaging Zion operations and continuing to prevent awakenings. And after the overwriting thing, they're still probably a bit paranoid about direct Machine controll.

Shinryu · 09/28/2007 16:39:03

As far back as I remember, the original Cyph faction(s) was actually Mero.. which, outside of the whole being paid thing that is in some senses is fairly recent, makes a lot of sense especially with re-insertion not existing. So yeah, put me in the camp of it's been too long and the roads have been worn to far in to change things now.

GamiSB · 09/28/2007 16:40:41

MatrixRefugee wrote:

I could see the Cyphs disbanding, since their purpose is over and, if I remember correctly, wasn't Cryptos told there was little to no chance for anyone to be reinserted into the Matrix? The EPN, however, are still awaiting the return of Neo/the One, and with the Truce over, I imagine it may not be long before the search for the next One will begin.

/facepalm

MatrixRefugee · 09/28/2007 16:48:08

GamiSB wrote:

MatrixRefugee wrote:
I could see the Cyphs disbanding, since their purpose is over and, if I remember correctly, wasn't Cryptos told there was little to no chance for anyone to be reinserted into the Matrix? The EPN, however, are still awaiting the return of Neo/the One, and with the Truce over, I imagine it may not be long before the search for the next One will begin.

/facepalm

Did I say the wrong thing? :: Puzzled::

Procurator · 09/28/2007 16:56:51

I think half of them say stuff like 'praise Neo' and 'may Neo watch over us', while the other half deny that they do it. SMILEY

PS10N · 09/28/2007 17:22:09

"Machine Archive 4.2, see for yourself - EPNS used code bombs. Not to mention a recent live event where the Kid wanted to use code pulses to disable sentinels (not that it worked), and one where Shimada used them to damage the General's helipads. The EPN leadership intended to use them in a harmful manner - end of story."

Re-open story. None of these were acts of terrorism, only of open warfare against an open enemy. Because of the fascist elements in control of the [U.S.] government, everything they don't like is labeled "terrorist" and this same mind-set has infected The Matrix. End of story.

CPT_Starschwar · 09/28/2007 19:24:10

EPN used code bombs to forcibly awaken blues in 4.2 - if that isn't the matrix equivalent of Terrorism, nothing is.

Similairly, the two live events debunked the "CPDS are harmless" lie.

Illyria22 · 09/28/2007 19:39:55

kou_urake wrote:

EPN used code bombs to forcibly awaken blues in 4.2 - if that isn't the matrix equivalent of Terrorism, nothing is.

QFT. Bluepills died because of those code bombs...code bombs detonated by EPN.

Illyria

Kybutra · 09/28/2007 19:49:20

To tell you the truth if the Cypherite org was to end, I wouldn't know what to do. I have become so used to killing Zion/EPN without a second thought that there would be no way I could be integrated back into the machine org and follow a Truce.

just my little 2 cents

PS10N · 09/28/2007 21:15:40

Name the EPN operatives who supposedly set off these code bombs. Name the ill effects of a code pulse device. The one thing you're leaving out is that everything told to you in that mission by Agent Gray is a lie. The Machine propaganda... machine... at work again. And you, machine operatives, willing dupes to their machinations. Poor pitiful, ignorant, naive, gullible, deceivable Machine operatives, believe everything they tell you without regard for the truth.

GamiSB · 09/28/2007 21:50:17

MatrixRefugee wrote:

GamiSB wrote:
MatrixRefugee wrote:
I could see the Cyphs disbanding, since their purpose is over and, if I remember correctly, wasn't Cryptos told there was little to no chance for anyone to be reinserted into the Matrix? The EPN, however, are still awaiting the return of Neo/the One, and with the Truce over, I imagine it may not be long before the search for the next One will begin.

/facepalm

Did I say the wrong thing? :: Puzzled::

Procurator wrote:

I think half of them say stuff like 'praise Neo' and 'may Neo watch over us', while the other half deny that they do it. " width="15" height="15" />

Both sayings imply that he is dead which is what most of the people in EPN believe. EPN from my perspective isn't about waiting for or finding Neo or a new "One". Then it would be called "E Pluribus Morpheus". Instead EPN is focused on finshing Neo's work, bringing about real peace, give everyone a shot at the truth etc.

Canbus · 09/29/2007 00:10:52

Ps1on, for God's sake, this is an OOC-thread, as in, out-of-character thread. If you want to continue arguing about whether or not EPN is full of terrorists, move it to a different topic to RP somewhere else. Is that too much to ask?

Note: This is based from my experience only on Syntax

On-topic, I actually believe that the Cypherites really didn't contribute much due to two factors: Limited gameplay mechanics (they're nothing more than Machines' unlikeable version of Splinter Cell operatives) and that almost every Cypherite player I've met on Syntax (exception of Oldskool2814 and Phluff as I'm cool with them OOC-wise) are stereotypical PVP jack-*censored* on a similar level as the Merv population on Syntax. I genuinely could not show much interest whatsoever, and there's barely any reason for us to like them.

As for EPN, I actually don't want to see the org dying. As for why: GamiSB did hit the nail on the head on his apology topic posted at least six months ago, EPN helped us break away from Matrix n00bs shouting "ZOMG, 1 m N30. W0rsh1p m3! LOLZ!" On top of this, a dozen mature Zion players are often overshadowed by 30 idiots (chat room Zion players, you know who you are) spamming crap during live events, and the population is ridiculously large (EPN has what, five well-known active factions by now? At least half of the EPN players behave better than what we see in a mess of a live event recap) that live events can't run smoothly. Lastly, as much as I like Niobe and Ghost, everything Zion leadership did were full of stupid mistakes and security leaks (seriously, allying with the General when the entire player base knew he was the bad guy, Anome going bonkers because he didn't get psychiatric evaluation, Cypherite spies constantly FUBARing the org because security is so inept, the list could go on.) To add insult to injury, getting folded back to Zion would cause whatever reliable liaisons Zion and EPN has to get laid off for whatever reason, and I'm really not interested in that. Harkee, Trepetia, and Fuscienne showed that they are willing to interact with players and often did so whenever time could allow them. The last thing I want to see is seeing them get laid off because of a stupid message saying "Oh, due to EPN folding back to Zion, you guys are therefore useless and will get replaced" and getting replaced by an ex-Novalux (another Foxxdie), an ex-Stigmatism (someone who promises something big, but comes short no thanks to a real life fiasco) or a Zion/EPN version of Torman (someone who does not interact with the organization willingly compounded by hardware issues). It's bad enough the Machine players on Recursion have to put up with limited liaison interaction, and I am not interested in seeing two more organizations suffer just because of an idiotic fold.

PS10N · 09/29/2007 00:27:09

Seems to me the purposes and objectives of both sub-orgs are still alive and well, why else would people have such a passionate reaction? I swear, you have to beat the point over the heads of MxO players with a large smelly trout before anyone gets it.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 04:18:13

PS10N wrote:

Seems to me the purposes and objectives of both sub-orgs are still alive and well, why else would people have such a passionate reaction? I swear, you have to beat the point over the heads of MxO players with a large smelly trout before anyone gets it.

So what your saying is that this thread has fulfilled its purpose, and now we may argue your absurd suggestion about EPN's criminal status? No.

PS10N wrote:

Name the EPN operatives who supposedly set off these code bombs. Name the ill effects of a code pulse device. The one thing you're leaving out is that everything told to you in that mission by Agent Gray is a lie. The Machine propaganda... machine... at work again. And you, machine operatives, willing dupes to their machinations. Poor pitiful, ignorant, naive, gullible, deceivable Machine operatives, believe everything they tell you without regard for the truth.

Everyone, take a good look at this post. I hate to perform a personal attack here, but this is getting flippin' ridiculous. Why are we even responding to this stuff? He's replying IC when most of us are OOC, he's spouting tirades of rhetoric, and he's been dragging us off-topic since near the start of the thread!

Please, for the love of God, just ignore him if he continues along those lines. Let's all stick to the topic at hand.

ShiXinFeng · 09/29/2007 11:36:20

Okay, a lot of people have expressed their feelings about whether these orgs should stay or go.

But, I hear a lot of "I (like/don't like) X org)." What I don't hear much of is, do these splinter orgs have a mission? Does this mission differentiate the sub-org from the parent org enough to warrant keeping them around?

Could we get better storylines for three orgs rather than five? Would the game be improved?

Those are the questions I'd like to see answered.

In my opinion, I think the game, overall, would be better with just the three orgs. I don't think the sub-orgs have a good enough mission to keep them. I like being EPN; it makes me stand out in a crowd of Zionists. But, not so much anymore because even this sub-org has been 'watered down' now.

Whether I like it or not doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the game, though.

MetaLogic · 09/29/2007 12:03:58

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Okay, a lot of people have expressed their feelings about whether these orgs should stay or go.
But, I hear a lot of "I (like/don't like) X org)." What I don't hear much of is, do these splinter orgs have a mission? Does this mission differentiate the sub-org from the parent org enough to warrant keeping them around?
Could we get better storylines for three orgs rather than five? Would the game be improved?
Those are the questions I'd like to see answered.
In my opinion, I think the game, overall, would be better with just the three orgs. I don't think the sub-orgs have a good enough mission to keep them. I like being EPN; it makes me stand out in a crowd of Zionists. But, not so much anymore because even this sub-org has been 'watered down' now.
Whether I like it or not doesn't necessarily mean it's good for the game, though.

Trust me, I would LOVE to see the Cyph Org as well as the EPN Org. get their own mission, their own controller, (I want Veil to be our controller), if the Devs actually made us into REAL orgs instead of just splinters, then I would be as happy as a pig in slop. However, as it's been said from time and time again, due to limited time and limited Dev powers, the Cypherite Organization and the EPN Organization will never become real orgs, just splinter orgs. Which means every time I do a critical mission, I'll have to listen to Gray's monotone voice, and it's gotten old a long time ago.

Shinryu · 09/29/2007 17:02:09

Yes, the Cyphs and EPN have their own purpose and their own agendas, which is quite a large part of the reason why they couldn't be simply folded into their "parent" orgs. I would also love to see them as their own organizations instead of just being considered splinter groups. It would actually be quite interesting to see the Cyphs on their own without being on the payroll of the Machines. They would certainly have enough built in friction with the disparity between Veil's way of doing things and Cryptos' way of doing things to sustain their own existence drama wise even if not storyline wise. Of course, we know this isn't going to happen.

Arkham · 09/30/2007 01:02:53

Garu wrote:

It's says a lot when even Procurator tells you to chill when it comes to hating on Cyphs! LOL
In all seriousness though, I don't care much for Cypherites for the same reasons that many other machinists don't. However, in all their uselessness, everyone deserves the right to function within a group of like-minded souls. Who are we to judge how unnecessary they are when they themselves firmly believe they have purpose and reason to band together.
Cypherites have proven to be useful from time to time. While I don't particularly care for their methods or hobbies, they have proven to be of some benefit to the Machines. Otherwise, why would they keep them around? In the end, there is a reason the Cypherites are similar to Machinists and EPN with Zion. It is because they are splinter groups that its natural that they have those similarities but its in how they execute those ideas that separates them greatly.
EPN and Cypherites are the radicals and their acts reflect it. They have a reason to be and it's not within our rights to tell them different.

Someone who understands.

PS10N · 09/30/2007 04:28:25

Procurator, nope, you still don't get it and entirely missed my point. Try again, thanks for paying. -bzzzz-

Garu · 09/30/2007 06:56:48

PS10N wrote:

Procurator, nope, you still don't get it and entirely missed my point. Try again, thanks for paying. -bzzzz-

Put the smelly trout down, PS10N!!

ShiXinFeng · 09/30/2007 07:34:47

ArkDarker wrote:

Garu wrote:
It's says a lot when even Procurator tells you to chill when it comes to hating on Cyphs! LOL
In all seriousness though, I don't care much for Cypherites for the same reasons that many other machinists don't. However, in all their uselessness, everyone deserves the right to function within a group of like-minded souls. Who are we to judge how unnecessary they are when they themselves firmly believe they have purpose and reason to band together.
Cypherites have proven to be useful from time to time. While I don't particularly care for their methods or hobbies, they have proven to be of some benefit to the Machines. Otherwise, why would they keep them around? In the end, there is a reason the Cypherites are similar to Machinists and EPN with Zion. It is because they are splinter groups that its natural that they have those similarities but its in how they execute those ideas that separates them greatly.
EPN and Cypherites are the radicals and their acts reflect it. They have a reason to be and it's not within our rights to tell them different.

Someone who understands.

Wrong. Under the Truce they were radical organizations. Whereas before, it was EPN's job to awaken everyone and fight the Machines. Now, that is all of Zion's mission. Before the Truce ended, it was the CYPH's job to keep us from awakening any more bluepills and to fight Zion on behalf of the Machines. Now that there is open hostilities, this covertness is no longer needed.

Without the Truce, the mission of these radical groups becomes the mission of the parent orgs. So, having two extra orgs for Rarebit to write about and care for in the storyline is an unnecessary burden that could be using up valuable creativity. I think if it were just back to three orgs (with more dynamic and variety in the factions within those orgs), the storyline would improve even more.

It's crazy to think that Zion, knowing what they are up against, would not want this fairly large group of like minded individuals back with them. And it's equally ludicrous that, under these conditions, the Machines wouls not want to excercise more control over a group that already works for them.

CPT_Starschwar · 09/30/2007 09:04:28

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Wrong. Under the Truce they were radical organizations. Whereas before, it was EPN's job to awaken everyone and fight the Machines. Now, that is all of Zion's mission. Before the Truce ended, it was the CYPH's job to keep us from awakening any more bluepills and to fight Zion on behalf of the Machines. Now that there is open hostilities, this covertness is no longer needed.
Without the Truce, the mission of these radical groups becomes the mission of the parent orgs. So, having two extra orgs for Rarebit to write about and care for in the storyline is an unnecessary burden that could be using up valuable creativity. I think if it were just back to three orgs (with more dynamic and variety in the factions within those orgs), the storyline would improve even more.
It's crazy to think that Zion, knowing what they are up against, would not want this fairly large group of like minded individuals back with them. And it's equally ludicrous that, under these conditions, the Machines wouls not want to excercise more control over a group that already works for them.

I couldn't disagree more. While the Machines once exercised controll over Cryptos, now that he's no longer overwritten, he's acting of his own free will. Add to that the instability of Veil, and the fact that reinsertion does not exist, the Cypherites have every logical reason to be a seperate entity. Especially considering a very... disloyal... action by Veil in a recent Mero crit.

Similairly, EPN's attempt to sabotage the power lines wasn't something Zion Command deemed nessecary - only EPN ships participated. They want to help Zion, but they're the ones deciding how.

The paths may be similair, but the motivations differ. Here's how I see it:

Machine Motivation for fighting zion/epn and minimizing awakenings : Matrix Stability, maintaining their power source (untill the Mero crits say otherwise, anyway).

Cypherites: Revenge for being awakened, preventing others from experiencing what they view as an inferior life, pay from the Machines.

Zion Motivation for fighting Machines/Cyphs, awakening humans: Protecting their city, gaining recruits to continue the fight and free others, ensuring a future for free humanity.

EPN: Freeing people because it's the right thing to do / what they think Neo would want them to do. They fight those that would prevent this from granting the freedom they seek to spread.