[8.1.1] We had to move because they had us dead to rights - Vector - 7/12/07

Niobe, you've made it clear that Zion never wanted peace.  You are the reason we were enslaved in the first place, and you are the reason we cannot live in peace with our machine brothers and sisters.  You and anyone who thinks like you are a cancer and must be cut out if we are ever to heal and stand a chance of living through another generation.

You make me sick, and I am fully prepared to put you and your followers down to protect the billions of humans who still need the Matrix as well as the machines who have just as much right to live on this planet as we do.

You speak of what you do not know. Shut the **** up and go learn what peace is. This has nothing to do with peace.
They were trying to control us with fear and we didn't like it. So we threw the Architect a curve-ball and he didn't like it. End-of-story.

Pyraci wrote:

Yo' cuz. Tell them the whole story. In hindsight, Iraq did a bunch of things that big bad America and the UN didn't like, but when the US said "We think you have WMD's. Give em up now!" and they didn't have them, the US went in anyway, guns blazing on faulty intelligence and assumptions in an attempt to maintain control of an indirect threat and made the situation for both sides worse. Iraq isn't justified in what they did, and their leader was a tyrant and a dictator, but a mis-judged reaction to a problem is as bad, if not worse than the problem itself.

And as far as Zion and EPN is concerned, that 1% garbage just went out the door the moment the Architect said no more extractions. That 1% was valid as long as the blues had a choice. The system we know was based on it. That choice doesn't exist anymore, to the Machine at least. Therefore, Zion will do what it needs to, since the Machine finds it necessary to do so.

We are humans. Our ancestors scorched the skies and destroyed the earth to fight the Machine, but we aren't our ancestors. We want to live, and live in freedom without being threatened.

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

- Ezechiel

Just because you can't awaken bluepills that doesn't mean we can't.  Your assumption that extractions will cease is incorrect.

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

- Ezechiel

Skill wrote:

You speak of what you do not know. Shut the **** up and go learn what peace is. This has nothing to do with peace.
They were trying to control us with fear and we didn't like it. So we threw the Architect a curve-ball and he didn't like it. End-of-story.

Peace takes cooperation.  Zion never cooperated, so why should the machines have eased up?
Yeah right, we just sat there when the red-eyed agents attacked, when the fly swarms kicked up, when Anome went on a rampage, and when the General, in his infinite wisdom, tried to trick us into attacking. If the Gen. had gone to the machines we'd have had war in 5 minutes, as shown by this.
Us Machinists have cooperated since day one, and we are still trusted.
Why do you only associate yourselves with the machines when it makes them look good?
What have the machines done to cooperate with us? I'll tell you what they've done to make it difficult:
Cypherites? Oh right they weren't affiliated with the machines. I forgot.
Sentinel Army at our doorstep? Oh right, having an army buildup is totally supported under the truce.
Backhanded murder of Zionites and their redpill recruits? Oh no wait, that was the machinists that did that, under orders from gray. My bad.
The only way to achieve peace is to prove to them that we aren't going to try and wipe them out the second we have the capability.  Zion's actions prove the opposite.
I can't believe you bought into that so easily. We just want to live in a place where our family, our children are safe... But apparently the machines put a double-standard.

Pyraci wrote:

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)


- Ezechiel

You quote Malcolm X and I quote Martin Luther King Jr.  Just which one was for peace again?

((The fact that you guys still do not understand how building a bunker full of defensive weapons can be viewed as a threat is disturbing.  I really hope that those arguing this point only believe this as an in character thing.  For those of you who actually pay attention in the world this very issue itself has the possiblity to leading to WWIII.  Turn on the news sometime and take a look at Iran and their nuclear issue and America and the missile defense shield and Russias response.  Russia responded by releasing the nuclear fuel to Iran which they were holding off from doing as a detterent to America))

Oh really...?



Sounds like it to me, unless there's some creative, far-fetched explanation or interpretation as to how this is different... Anyone?

Listen. I know what I'm talking about, man. Nice try though.

Satta wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

- Ezechiel

You quote Malcolm X and I quote Martin Luther King Jr.  Just which one was for peace again?

If you do your history, my friend, you'll see that they both were. El Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X) fought and worked for peace, especially after his pilgrimage to Mecca. His viewpoints were just as necessary as any for African Americans to be treated as equal people and live in peace. That quote is an irrefutable truth.

((Like most of us here we all want peace, but we have different ways of getting there.  I know my history, I am African American, and I even attended Morehouse College which is the same school as the one MLK went to.  Martin promoted freedom through Peaceful means.  Malcolm X promoted it through "Any means necessary."  It wasn't until later in life for Malcolm that he started believing more in Martins way before he was assassinated.  I have mad respect for both, but let me ask you a question?  Just who signed the Civil Rights Bill and whose birthday does the Nation celebrate?))

P.S. Malcolm was promoting African Americans to arm themselves.  Martin was saying the opposite.  If I was alive during those times with my attitude, I would have been following Malcolm, but the correct path was Martin.

Words cannot express how utterly disappointed I am in Zion.  Building up armaments, preparing for war, all while reaping the benefits of the truce so many of them are speaking out against now...much like Germany did between World Wars 1 and 2.  The General must be laughing his @ss off right now -- the war he wanted so badly is back. 

In the words of their official spokesman Rylet, Zion broke the truce -- and in doing so, they demonstrated that you can't force peace on those who want war.  I suppose there will be no peace again until Zion decides that a truce would be worthwhile.  I've heard some of my fellow Machinists say that they want to see another truce brokered.  I would dearly love to see this as well, but it's not going happen until Zion decides they want it.  Neither the Machines nor their human operatives are going to chase down Zion high command and beg them to accept another truce.  We will not go to them; they must come to us.  I don't know if they will or not, but I do know I'm through with them if they don't.  I'm through with warning them what could happen if they broke the truce, I'm through with reminding them there are many innocents in their city.  You can't save people who don't want to be saved.  So go ahead.  Have your Waco, have your Jonestown.  You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*.

Illyria

Words cannot express how utterly disappointed I am in Zion.  Building up armaments, preparing for war, all while reaping the benefits of the truce so many of them are speaking out against now...much like Germany did between World Wars 1 and 2.  The General must be laughing his @ss off right now -- the war he wanted so badly is back. 

In the words of their official spokesman Rylet, Zion broke the truce -- and in doing so, they demonstrated that you can't force peace on those who want war.  I suppose there will be no peace again until Zion decides that a truce would be worthwhile.  I've heard some of my fellow Machinists say that they want to see another truce brokered.  I would dearly love to see this as well, but it's not going happen until Zion decides they want it.  Neither the Machines nor their human operatives are going to chase down Zion high command and beg them to accept another truce.  We will not go to them; they must come to us.  I don't know if they will or not, but I do know I'm through with them if they don't.  I'm through with warning them what could happen if they broke the truce, I'm through with reminding them there are many innocents in their city.  You can't save people who don't want to be saved.  So go ahead.  Have your Waco, have your Jonestown.  You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*.

Illyria

Illyria that is one of the greatest quotes I have seen you make.  I will be using that. 

"Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*." - Illyria

The machines were happy to keep the truce going as long as they had Zion on it's knees with a bullet aimed at her head., THAT is  the truth. We have now thankfully built a new city to defend ourselves, should be need it, for the machines could attack at any given moment... so many claim they wouldn't do that, they were wrong.

I've said this many many times, I want a future for our children, what we do now will effect their future. I want mankind to be free and exist as we should, not locked in pods with a prison for our minds. What the machinist are now doing is trying to justify why the machines are right to end the truce, they can use all excuses they wish and frankly I'm beyond caring for their words.

I want a future for mankind and unlike the machinists it doesn't see mankind imprisoned. The past concerning man against man is not a situation we can use here, it is now Man Vs Machine and until we get a machine that wants to make real peace, this war is bound to continue.

We now must choose a side, I've chosen humanity and fighting for my brothers and sisters. Niobe, loyal Zion operatives are with you, we know what Neo did for humanity and we must now do what we need to for that, otherwise the machines will just want to continue their system of control where they wipe out Zion.

Neo was defiant against the machines, we must be also.

Forever you say Illyria, forever of what? Living under the thumb of machines until they decide to wipe us out again, no thanks, I choose to help humanity and not keep it on it's knees with a gun at her head.

We have now thankfully built a new city to defend ourselves, should be need it, for the machines could attack at any given moment... so many claim they wouldn't do that, they were wrong.

I am suddenly reminded of David Koresh.  His group also saw themselves in an "us against the world" manner, and they had a heavily armed compound supposedly for defense against outside invaders too. 

Illyria

It's entirely possible that he only means Zion.  Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed with the implication that he's still talking about Zion.  It's in the machines' best interest that we continue to extract bluepills from the system so that its stability doesn't suffer.

Pyraci wrote:

Satta wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)




- Ezechiel

You quote Malcolm X and I quote Martin Luther King Jr.  Just which one was for peace again?

If you do your history, my friend, you'll see that they both were. El Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X) fought and worked for peace, especially after his pilgrimage to Mecca. His viewpoints were just as necessary as any for African Americans to be treated as equal people and live in peace. That quote is an irrefutable truth.

((Like most of us here we all want peace, but we have different ways of getting there.  I know my history, I am African American, and I even attended Morehouse College which is the same school as the one MLK went to.  Martin promoted freedom through Peaceful means.  Malcolm X promoted it through "Any means necessary."  It wasn't until later in life for Malcolm that he started believing more in Martins way before he was assassinated.  I have mad respect for both, but let me ask you a question?  Just who signed the Civil Rights Bill and whose birthday does the Nation celebrate?))

P.S. Malcolm was promoting African Americans to arm themselves.  Martin was saying the opposite.  If I was alive during those times with my attitude, I would have been following Malcolm, but the correct path was Martin.

((I'm too lazy to read the whole thread so I'll skip the debate, but it looks like the broken truce will be fun. Too bad most of the game isn't set up like it is broken, though.))

Words cannot express how utterly disappointed I am in Zion.  Building up armaments, preparing for war, all while reaping the benefits of the truce so many of them are speaking out against now...much like Germany did between World Wars 1 and 2.  The General must be laughing his @ss off right now -- the war he wanted so badly is back.

In the words of their official spokesman Rylet, Zion broke the truce -- and in doing so, they demonstrated that you can't force peace on those who want war. I suppose there will be no peace again until Zion decides that a truce would be worthwhile.  I've heard some of my fellow Machinists say that they want to see another truce brokered.  I would dearly love to see this as well, but it's not going happen until Zion decides they want it.  Neither the Machines nor their human operatives are going to chase down Zion high command and beg them to accept another truce.  We will not go to them; they must come to us.  I don't know if they will or not, but I do know I'm through with them if they don't.  I'm through with warning them what could happen if they broke the truce, I'm through with reminding them there are many innocents in their city.  You can't save people who don't want to be saved.  So go ahead.  Have your Waco, have your Jonestown.  You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*.

Illyria

As I explained to NightTrace tonight when I say that Zion is a threat because of the new bunker, I am not talking about a threat to 01.  I am not talking about changing their defensive weapons into offensive weapons and then flying a barge full of APUs to 01.

I am talking about the threat to the Matrix.  I am talking about Zion bombing the Matrix, causing havoc inside the Matrix, awakening more than the 1%, etc...All in an attempt to harm the machines or end the power source.  They will be free to do so without fear of retribution and destruction.  That detterrant is now gone.  We already see how splintered Zion is and the radicals could take over at any time or act independently while safely living within the confines of "New Zion" where the machines cannot touch them.  Zion has done a *CENSORED* poor job in reigning in their radicals.  You have people like Ryu walking around in Zion talking about the machines need to be destroyed and this planet belongs to humans.  We have many Zionites who do not even feel the Blue pills are humans.  It is that same old question of when does life begin at conception or birth?  Well when does Zion consider a bluepill human?  Once they are awakened and accept their lie?

So I can understand why the machines would see this as a threat and I support them.  I refrenced my Father because how Zion operates in the Matrix is proof that they do not care about Bluepill lives.  They put their lives above the 99% of the population and that is unacceptable. 

So I will ask what I said before.  For all those Zionites who feel powerless and do not agree with their leadership your voice needs to be heard.  Do you feel that Neo bought you 2 years or did he give you peace? 

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years. But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*. - Illyria

Lucen wrote:

It's entirely possible that he only means Zion.  Zion has broken the truce, no further awakenings are to be allowed with the implication that he's still talking about Zion.  It's in the machines' best interest that we continue to extract bluepills from the system so that its stability doesn't suffer.

Not trying to be disrespectful man, but quit arguing for the sake of arguing. He said it. That's your proof. There weren't any clauses or additions to that statement. Agent Gray said "Yes sir." and the conversation ended. End of story.

Let it go, man - the truth doesn't always bend to the machinists and maybe, JUST MAYBE, this little theory might be wrong.

Satta wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

Satta wrote:

Pyraci wrote:

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
- Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)




- Ezechiel

You quote Malcolm X and I quote Martin Luther King Jr.  Just which one was for peace again?

If you do your history, my friend, you'll see that they both were. El Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (Malcolm X) fought and worked for peace, especially after his pilgrimage to Mecca. His viewpoints were just as necessary as any for African Americans to be treated as equal people and live in peace. That quote is an irrefutable truth.

((Like most of us here we all want peace, but we have different ways of getting there.  I know my history, I am African American, and I even attended Morehouse College which is the same school as the one MLK went to.  Martin promoted freedom through Peaceful means.  Malcolm X promoted it through "Any means necessary."  It wasn't until later in life for Malcolm that he started believing more in Martins way before he was assassinated.  I have mad respect for both, but let me ask you a question?  Just who signed the Civil Rights Bill and whose birthday does the Nation celebrate?))

P.S. Malcolm was promoting African Americans to arm themselves.  Martin was saying the opposite.  If I was alive during those times with my attitude, I would have been following Malcolm, but the correct path was Martin.

(I know, man. I'm African American too, and I happen to live in the "south". I'm no stranger to this. Note that I mentioned "after his pilgrimage to Mecca". Whether someone's birthday is a national holiday or not is irrelevant. There are many people in the last 400 years that fought to be equal with everyone else here in America that were forgotten. Malcolm X is just as much a part of the civil rights movement and just as significant to that part of our history as MLK, Rosa Parks, or anyone else.

When history is replayed without the existence of Malcolm X and we get to where we are today, then I'll believe that just one had the correct idea. Until then, as far as I'm concerned, the both of them held truths(although from different viewpoints) that were necessary. People in that time needed to know that they had a choice and that the shouldn't just back down. Many of his speeches gave people the motivation and the inspiration to keep going as they got beat, spit at, and broken. It wasn't because of the ideas of one of them, but all of them.

You've got to look at the whole picture, man. All of it was for a reason. Like I told Lucen, I know what I'm talking about.)

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*.

Oh yeah, and a "truce" isn't permanent, regardless of what machinists want to believe. The fact that the sentinel army still sits, waiting outside of Zion is proof that this wasn't meant to be permanent. Hell, even when the Architect asked how long this was going to last, The Oracle said "as long as it can." This was temporary and it was always intended to be. I believe it was Fen that said it in another thread, if they were interested in helping us and being friends with us, they could have offered to help us rebuild. They could have worked with us outside of the Matrix, heh.

It's not one-way in a trusting relationship, and it's NOT one-way when arguments get to this point. The Machine is no more innocent than man is. They do things because they fear us getting out of control. We do things because we fear their control. It's as simple as that. You can make excuses or justifications for them all you want, but the truth remains.

Either way, you lot aren't changing and we aren't either. Heh, nobody can question the original point I made about the human Iraq war, can they? I'll just let the proof speak for itself, then.

kthx,

- Ezechiel

((You are absolutely correct.  If I was alive during those times I would have been like my parents and followed Malcolm.  My grandparents followed Martin.  History only names a few individuals who made an impact on true freedom and equality for African Americans.  It didn't start with Rosa Parks sitting on a bus, and it didn't happen over night.  However I believe that Malcolm X as great as he was united African Americans, whereas Martin Luther King Jr. united "ALL" Americans.  What most people do not know is that before MLK was assassinated he was starting to turn more to Malcolmes side of things.))

Okay let's get back to the Matrix now.  The only way to get there is together.  But if Zion is unable or unwilling to quiet the radical Zionites who continue to be a threat to the Matrix and bluepills by attacking the Machines then we will take them out ourselves.  We must rid this cancer in humanity so that humanity can live.

Okay let's get back to the Matrix now.  The only way to get there is together.  But if Zion is unable or unwilling to quiet the radical Zionites who continue to be a threat to the Matrix and bluepills by attacking the Machines then we will take them out ourselves.  We must rid this cancer in humanity so that humanity can live.

being one to look at the big pitcher what the hell is merv up two at the moment, its not like him to miss a profit and with a army in the real he could cause all sorts of problems for both sides.

Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*.

being one to look at the big pitcher what the hell is merv up two at the moment, its not like him to miss a profit and with a army in the real he could cause all sorts of problems for both sides.

Okay let's get back to the Matrix now.  The only way to get there is together.  But if Zion is unable or unwilling to quiet the radical Zionites who continue to be a threat to the Matrix and bluepills by attacking the Machines then we will take them out ourselves.  We must rid this cancer in humanity so that humanity can live.

We don't attack the Machines, we don't have the means.

They attack us, and I'll be damned if we won't defend ourselves.

If that makes us all demons in your eyes, then so be it, I'd rather be alive and demonized than a dead saint.

((Man, I hope the brothers W. are reading this stuff, I think they'd finally see that this little project is easily living up to the franchise.))

Here's the point people seem to be missing...

The "defensive weapons" that New Zion armed with are just that, defensive.  And they can only be used definsively.  All the APUs and EMPS can ONLY be used if the Machines INVADE ZION.  So the only reason the Machines should be mad about this is if they were PLANNING TO INVADE.

I'm not fond of being under the gun, myself.  That's why I joined EPN.  Zion Command did this to protect its people.  In what way does that make Zion the bad guys?

If that makes us all demons in your eyes, then so be it, I'd rather be alive and demonized than a dead saint.

Neoteny wrote:

If that makes us all demons in your eyes, then so be it, I'd rather be alive and demonized than a dead saint.

So you'd rather be alive and evil than dead and good?  Thanks for clearing that up for us.

You got it, chief.

Apparently, I can save more people as a devil, anyway. If I've got to pay for that in the afterlife, I gladly will.

After all, what's my life in respect to what your own liaison has identified as millions? Nothing, that's what.

If I were a machinist I would be preaching to the machines with all my heart to not retract the truce simply because Zion's protecting herself. 

The Machinists are not your keepers.  We will not go to the Machines begging them to forgive you for doing something that your leaders *knew* would be construed as breaking the truce.  If you want the truce back so badly, talk to them yourselves. 

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

If that makes us all demons in your eyes, then so be it, I'd rather be alive and demonized than a dead saint.

So you'd rather be alive and evil than dead and good?  Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Zion's leaders seem to know the terms of the truce, because they knew the Machines would look at what they'd done as breaking the truce.  You might want to ask Niobe and Lock what the terms were.

Illyria

The Machines do, but Machinists don't.

Illyria

You got it, chief.

Apparently, I can save more people as a devil, anyway. If I've got to pay for that in the afterlife, I gladly will.

After all, what's my life in respect to what your own liaison has identified as millions? Nothing, that's what.

Satta wrote:

Okay let's get back to the Matrix now.  The only way to get there is together.  But if Zion is unable or unwilling to quiet the radical Zionites who continue to be a threat to the Matrix and bluepills by attacking the Machines then we will take them out ourselves.  We must rid this cancer in humanity so that humanity can live.

We don't attack the Machines, we don't have the means.

They attack us, and I'll be damned if we won't defend ourselves.

If that makes us all demons in your eyes, then so be it, I'd rather be alive and demonized than a dead saint.

((Man, I hope the brothers W. are reading this stuff, I think they'd finally see that this little project is easily living up to the franchise.))

Morpheus : The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see?

As long as people in Zion actually believe this crap TC will be there to protect bluepills from Zionites.  I wish there was a TC presence before my father was killed by careless Zionites.

"Niobe, you were thankful that Neo bought you two years.  But if you'd abided by the truce, he could have bought you *forever*." - Illyria

((I agree I wonder if the W brothers have even thought this type of debate could occur.  This is the best thing for the Matrix since the game went live.))

Neoteny wrote:

You got it, chief.

Apparently, I can save more people as a devil, anyway. If I've got to pay for that in the afterlife, I gladly will.

After all, what's my life in respect to what your own liaison has identified as millions? Nothing, that's what.

It's not the destination, but the journey that matters.  How you accomplish your goals means just as much as accomplishing them.

Like I said, I'm going to do everything I can to save as many lives as I can. If that makes me a devil, I'll pay for it later, and without regret.

By the way, that "lives" is indiscriminatory and includes bluepills, in case you were wondering.