Let's talk spy......

if your getting damaged for 1000 damage with staggering throw you just need some throw resistance, as far as timers go hacker has the best advantage, as far as you know which abilities to use and when, this game is really about knowledge and wisdom, knowing your load and knowing when and how to use it. once you get to that point any class can fall to you, or be fallen by you. (btw i am not at this point nor do i claim to Pwn anyone lol i just know this from observation)

I think what he's reffering to also is that an MKT can punt and spam knives inside interlock, it's a proven method which can beat 9/10 people when the punt first hits then it's spam a load of high accuracy knives, against a gunman it's almost impossible then because a gunmans average accuracy is rubbish compared to MA or MKT. couple that with MKT's high defense bonus and that makes it almost impossible for gunmen.

BEFORE YOU FLAME ME, READ....PLEASE.
Ok I have noticed sometihng very annoying. Ceratain abilities on spy tree (like staggering trow) do insane amount of dmg
without requiring special states AND only in 3 seconds. When I am a sniper and do snipershot it takes me at least 5 seconds + I have to activate the dmg ab in order to make as much dmg as staggering trow. I suggest at least ONE of the 3 following things to be implemented.
1.Lower the dmg to 100 dps.
or
2.make the spy work for the dmg and make the ab require a state.
or
3.Make the timer longer. And not just 4 seconds. I think 5.5 secs is perfect.

Coz now we have this: "Fatty laugher: Hohohoho I amke 1000 dmg with staggering trow. I totally pwn." with one single button.
This is not the only ability and I suggest that others underpowered  spy abilities need more dmg. Gotta work devs... chapp chapp!!!

The problem is that in order for us to fire off Staggering Throw, we must be stealthed, within 6m of our target AND behind them.  Once thrown, there is no guarantee of insta-death unless they are significantly lower leveled.

I usually average 1,000 damage on my Staggering Throws, but on my Sniper I average about 1,800 damage.  In fact, if my target doesn't have much ballistic defense, I can kill them faster than with my Master Assassin. 

By like all things, it's all about circumstance.

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

Well said, Renzouken.

The game is balanced quite well.  And in that context I mean that there is no sole dominant tree anymore.  The combat system is very much like rock/paper/scissors now.  It's just up to you to choose the tree that best suits your style.  However, in doing so you must accepts its pros and cons.  No single tree is ultimate.

It's up to its master for it to be used effectively and powerfully.

Rock > Scissors > Paper > Rock...and so on and so forth.

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

As soon as an MKT has IL'd a hacker the hacker is dead, MKT's can pwn in and out of IL quite easily, they can miss the Punt and still kill you. They can root and slow down without fail and have abilities that have shorter reuse timers than the actual debuff duration. They have such low IS costs that you never need to worry about IS ever again. Nearly everyone agrees they are overpowered, even people who used MKT in CR 1 and CR 2 admit this.

Firstly, this MKT wasn't sneak attacking, just spamming knives and only knives. And for an MA to get someone in a state they have to free fire them into it or use regular tactics whilst in IL. Both are extremely stupid when fighting an MKT. Firstly, out of IL an MKT will root you without fail so you can't get close enough to melee free fire and MKT's have a high ballistic defense so using guns is out of the question aswell. Trying to use regular tactics in IL with a knifer is also extremely stupid, MA's will have a rather low thrown defense so the MKT will spam knives while you will miss with your regular tactics while taking thousands of knives. The lesson, it is EXTREMELY hard to get an MKT into a state as an MA. So saying state required specials balance things is just plain wrong.

Secondly, I Don't mind that an MKT can Punt then finish someone off, thats what they are made for. But they can miss the Punt and still have more than enough resources left to kill the target from in IL and have a giant pile of IS left at the end.

Code infections can be removed with an anti biotic or a sweep ability from the patcher tree. If you are fighting someone who loves their DOT effects get a friendly Patcher to fix that, or take a few anti's. What can you do to stop a MKT from spamming? I told you that code infection 2.0 seems to do not a thing and they can always take anti's to remove that if they want to.

As soon as an MKT has IL'd a hacker the hacker is dead, MKT's can pwn in and out of IL quite easily, they can miss the Punt and still kill you. They can root and slow down without fail and have abilities that have shorter reuse timers than the actual debuff duration. They have such low IS costs that you never need to worry about IS ever again. Nearly everyone agrees they are overpowered, even people who used MKT in CR 1 and CR 2 admit this.

Sure you can always say "But tree X has beaten tree Y" but those are merely single incidences. Look at the tree as a whole and tell me you can honestly say its balanced. All the buffs in this game are anti MA, Gunner and Hacker. All the debuffs are anti Gunner, MA and hacker. Even thrown resistance bonuses don't work (Don't assume I'm a noob and I'm talking clothes, I tried activating Calm Mind Calm Body and its always 75 points).

In its current state MKT is very much overpowered. It does not need to be tailored to kill a certain tree, it automatically has all the attacks it needs to pwn anything and everything. It never runs out of IS, defenses against it (what few there are) are mostly bugged and don't work properly. There are a lack of moves to help defend against it and a lack of moves to debuff it.

All in all it needs a fix, the vast majority of PvPers use it, therefore it must be the best tree available at this time. As a result of this it is not unreasonable to assume it is overpowered.

Not so.

Here's the difference between MKT and the other trees.  IF I am rendered in any state against a Soldier, I'm dead.  There's no two ways about it. 

Dazed:
- Full Auto Redux
- Wooden Dummy Drill
- MachineGun Kick
- Pistol Whip

Staggered:
- Full Auto
- Ki Charged Footsweep
- Ki Charged Punch
- Three Round Burst
- Piston Kicks


Off-Balance:
- Triple Front Kick
- Counter Throw
- Dual Pistol Point Blank
- Pistol Aerial

All of the above moves easily do 1,000 damage.  Some even do close to 2,000 damage.  As a spy, I have the following optional moves inside interlock:

- Throat Cutting Throw
- Leg Sweep
- Deadly Throw
- Paralyzing Throw (eats IS like crazy)

The maximum I can do, on average, is about 400-600 on those IF Find Weakness decides to work.  Most times, it doesn't.

As far as hackers are concerned...I've been eaten alive inside interlock by professional hackers.  I'm not talking about the novice ones running around with Logic Barrage and Blast.  I'm talking about the ones who loadup the AoEs and DoT attacks.  I've been hit by so many inside interlock that I am literally being nuked alive. 

The truth is it sounds like you need more determination and initiative.  They lower the time of negative states and give you the extra boost to land specials.  As an MA, I used a Kung Fu/Karate Hybrid and I could kill people in 3-4 hits easy.  But as I've said time and time again:

"It's all about KNOWING your build and how to effectively use it."

Spamming specials is NOT going to cut it.  Not even for an MKT. 

Bayamo wrote:

Just as MA can kill 3 people with little IS using state specials, MKT can do so with sneak attacks. Your portrayal of the Spy tree as imbalanced is slanted and fails to consider all aspects of the combat system. Any decent hacker can destroy even a good MKT. MA and MKT are equal attribute-wise, it comes down to the skill of the player and the strength of their builds in such fights. I've fought MAs as MKT what were a cakewalk in IL, and I've had every single one of my specials outrolled as a MKT fighting a MA with high accuracy.

MKT really isn't imbalanced. Yes it has low IS cost but it also has no free fire. The exact same goes for hacker - low IS for dmg abilities, hell look at the Code Infections and their 10 IS cost. But there is a method to this madness, which is often overlooked.

Quoted, for absoloute truth. I've played, PvP'd as and learned every single tree there is to play besides one since the release or CR2.0 and in my opinion the system is in greater balance now than it has ever been. I've played as a Gunman, beat Spies, played as a Martial Artist, beat Gunmen and vice versa obviously. Every class of loadout has the potential to get within the 150 accuracy range. Martial Arts - Kung Fu Style, Guns - Rifle Style, Spy - MKT Buff, Hacker also all depending on your loading of passive buffs and clothes. Every class of loadout has the potential to get near the 180 defense mark for two types of class.

Granted, some are better in and out of interlock than others, some are better at debuffing / rooting than others, some are best at dealing raw damage or doing damage over time. Each class has a particular role and specialize in a specific area, but as for saying stats are imbalanced things couldn't be further from the truth. The strength of a Spy comes from his ability to catch you off-guard, exactly the same as any sneak class (Sniper), if a Spy or Sniper manages a successful sneak attack it's game over.  The strangth of an MA comes from his ability to land state specials, if a Martial Artist lands his successful Wooden Dummy Drill, Machinegun Kick it's game over.

As for his Knives costing such low IS, think it this way. How would a Martial Artist feel about having to pay IS to use Speed, Grab, Power et cetera tactics inside Interlock? Spamming specials is the only thing a Knifer, or hacker for that matter can do inside Interlock to say they should cost more IS is rediculous.

Regarding Staggering Throw, it really isn't that dangerous. You have to successfully rig up a desguise and be behind the target before even attempting to land it. Once you've used it, hit or miss, all other sneak attacks will be offline for roughly another 30 seconds. It's useless unless the target is allready in Interlock with another player, and if that's the case you're most likely allready as good as dead.

Maybe free-fire sneak attacks do need to be toned down a little, to lower the potency of the Zerg if nothing else but as for the rest of Spy leave it alone, it's fine.

As for Gunmen being so weak against MKT. It's this way because it was made this way. A challenge I put toward all the Gunmen complaining MKT is overpowered: Go Hacker for a day and hunt some MKT's. Then you'll see how overpowered Spy is.

For those saying Hacker is crap against Spy, sorry to be blunt but you gotta be a really, really lame hacker.

In all due respect, if these statements where true the Devs would be talking about adding in the Zen Master, Citadel Coder, & Trojan Horse abilities, or even raising the level cap and expanding the map. But in fact they have mentioned that doing so would only further unbalance the game, and that first priority must be to debug and balance the system.

MKT vs. Hacker is roughly a 50/50 fight, but MKT vs. anything else (1on1) is a very one-sided fight. Granted in PVP you might have friends helping you, and that makes it possible to drop that MKT. I've seen them drop player after player, I've been hit with 6 knives in a row while running Hyper sesne and in block tactics. (that's the highest defense I can get as an MA) I can't hardly call 6 hits in a row balanced with any stretch of the imagination.

And just as we have seen in the past, once this is fixed another tree will become unbalanced. Fact is, this game is going to be extremely difficult to get balanced. Especially, with players that take pride in finding the next exploit or inbalanced. Back on the test server I suggested that the Devs take me time to thuroughly balance the system before going live, but that was not benificial to the profit margin I guess. Now, that hindsight is 20/20 I can hardly agree with anyone stating that this game is completely balanced, and I don't think I'm alone on that.

I can't hardly call 6 hits in a row balanced with any stretch of the imagination.

Well if you want those changes, then we need to make it so MA's can't spam specials either.  I mean after all, they can win a match without having to do just a normal speed/power/grab attack.  Don't you also find it really funny that almost every kung fu specials has the possibility of stunning you or will stun you?  LOL!

Jilted1 wrote:

I can't hardly call 6 hits in a row balanced with any stretch of the imagination.

It's called CR 2 (meaning, random rolls!).  When I was a spy, I missed 7 knives in a row against an NPC 1 lvl lower than me. 

First things first, when was this? Between which 2 patches exactly? Cause the spy tree has not always been so uber as it is now.

Second, let's discuss random. Yeah, at the heart of the system is a random number generator, but those random numbers are adjusted by things like, influences. More accurately CR2.0 is semi-random rolls. From personal testing I can tell you that an MA running Hyper-Sense in block tactic only has about a 10% chance to dodge a knife attack, in the current state of things.

reguardless of how you want to justify it, kid yourself and try to convince us that the spy tree is balanced, it is not; plain and simply!

More accurately CR2.0 is semi-random rolls. From personal testing I can tell you that an MA running Hyper-Sense in block tactic only has about a 10% chance to dodge a knife attack, in the current state of things.

timeframe01 wrote:

Well if you want those changes, then we need to make it so MA's can't spam specials either.  I mean after all, they can win a match without having to do just a normal speed/power/grab attack.  Don't you also find it really funny that almost every kung fu specials has the possibility of stunning you or will stun you?  LOL!

only 3 moves have a chance to stun and thats DMS, EFK and PK

• Most Powerful attack in the game, Punt.
• A plethora of knives that can be used in and out of IL for low low IS costs with a range of debuffs that last longer than the reuse timer. Meaning they can throw knives and stack so many debuffs you'll be dead 5 times before you hit the ground.
  
• So many rooting attacks that they control combat better than anyone else.
• Very high accuracy so they can outroll most other people, hackers take LARGE penalties when in IL, MA's can't get a high enough accuracy, MKT's have a high gun defense so the gunner will probly miss anyway.
• A large range of sneak attacks that all do very reasonable damage and have some very powerful debuffs giving you the edge you need to finish said victim off (This is the only thing I think is balanced, MKT's should be able to do this)

• State requiring specials, it takes an extreme amount of luck to get other classes into a state, for all the reasons pointed out above.
• NO practical use when not in IL
• When in IL still is only mildly good as MKT and gunner are just as good if not better whilst in IL
• High DPS attacks but at high IS costs aswell.
• Poor defense against the other two IL classes so they are even more screwed when in IL

• Quite reasonable in IL
• Quite effective out of IL, can use some state requiring specials out of IL which makes them quite effective
• Similar sort of IS costs as the MA
• Flexibility to adapt to any situation (Sniping the zerg, debuffs from out of IL, pwning in IL)
  
• Overall I think gunner is pretty balanced, they aren't the pwn in or out of IL but can handle themselves quite well in any situation.

• Can be EXTREMELY effective when used well and backed up effectively
• SUCKS ARSE when in IL, except for a few abilities which are exceptions to the huge accuracy debuff in IL
• High IS costs for a lot of attacks, some have very low IS costs but those are DOT effects and can be sweeped
• A large range of debuffs that are very useful, but can also be sweeped with an antibiotic.
  

Well Garu, it appears you completely ignored the section of my post where it says MA's find it EXTREMELY hard to get MKT's into a state. Let me repeat it to you.

To get someone into a state you must use regular tactics, an MKT in IL will spam knives. IF you are to use regular tactics on them, to hit them the round must end up a hit/miss round. For this to happen the MKT must miss you and you must hit them, any other variation is bad. Because MA's have a low thrown defense chances are the knife will hit you and you will miss cause the round will be a zero sum round. This means you have a snowballs chance in hell of actually hitting them with a regular tactic. This means you have 30% of a snowballs chance in hell of getting them into that state. This means you will probably NEVER get them into a state. Sure, you could Punch Catch them but thats 40 IS down the drain for 1,
thats right just ONE, round of powerless on them, then its back to them
spamming for little to no IS costs.
The same thing applies for gunners as they also have an extremely low thrown defense, the only other class that has good thrown defense is hackers, and guess what? They don't have state specials. So how can anyone use state specials as justification that MA or Gunners are balanced against MKT.

Sure knifers have to throw knives to get the damage they want, but has anyone noticed the IS cost on knives is so low they NEVER run out.... EVER. Secondly, an MA spamming specials will run out of IS WAY WAY WAY WAY faster than an MKT will, again, how is this balanced? Thirdly, an MA is extremely lucky to even get into IL with an MKT who doesn't want to be in IL. MKT's have so many slowing and rooting attacks the MA will probably never move. And the fact that the debuffs last longer than the actualy reuse timer is even more broken.

Knifers can also use sneak attacks, and Punt does more damage than ANY other move in the game. And honestly speaking, its easier to get someones shield down and punt them rather than try to get them into a state. I know, I've used Spy hybrid LO's with Suplex, and I've also used pure MA. The spy hybrid was more successful than any other LO I've ever made. I'd have MA stats and still hit with the suplex more often and was more sucessful than trying to get someone into a state and then Tomo Nage/WDD/Foot Sweep them.

So lets go through the checklist of what different classes get
MKT:

• 1)Most Powerful attack in the game, Punt.
• A plethora of knives that can be used in and out of IL for low low IS costs with a range of debuffs that last longer than the reuse timer. Meaning they can throw knives and stack so many debuffs you'll be dead 5 times before you hit the ground.
  
• So many rooting attacks that they control combat better than anyone else.
• Very high accuracy so they can outroll most other people, hackers take LARGE penalties when in IL, MA's can't get a high enough accuracy, MKT's have a high gun defense so the gunner will probly miss anyway.
• A large range of sneak attacks that all do very reasonable damage and have some very powerful debuffs giving you the edge you need to finish said victim off (This is the only thing I think is balanced, MKT's should be able to do this)

MA:

• State requiring specials, it takes an extreme amount of luck to get other classes into a state, for all the reasons pointed out above.
• NO practical use when not in IL
• When in IL still is only mildly good as MKT and gunner are just as good if not better whilst in IL
• High DPS attacks but at high IS costs aswell.
• 2)Poor defense against the other two IL classes so they are even more screwed when in IL

Gunner:

• Quite reasonable in IL
• Quite effective out of IL, can use some state requiring specials out of IL which makes them quite effective
• Similar sort of IS costs as the MA
• Flexibility to adapt to any situation (Sniping the zerg, debuffs from out of IL, pwning in IL)
  
• Overall I think gunner is pretty balanced, they aren't the pwn in or out of IL but can handle themselves quite well in any situation.

Hackers:

• Can be EXTREMELY effective when used well and backed up effectively
• SUCKS ARSE when in IL, except for a few abilities which are exceptions to the huge accuracy debuff in IL
• 3)High IS costs for a lot of attacks, some have very low IS costs but those are DOT effects and can be sweeped
• A large range of debuffs that are very useful, but can also be sweeped with an antibiotic.
  

Could some people actually address the issues I have brought up rather than just quote a few instances that occured that weren't the norm?

hackers certainly don't suck arse in interlock, come onto vector and fight kaosdevil or KR0N0Z and they'll show you how much hacker pwns in interlock. I find a few points wrong on that

1) it's not the most powerful attack ingame, FAR does more damage and it can be used outside of interlock and you can't honestly say that getting wooden dummy drilled then machinegun kicked is any less damage.

2) I guess you've never heard of Aikido, as a gunman even some of the average MA's can give me a run for my money with aikido on grab.

3) the only attacks with high IS costs are debuffs and stuns/pacifies other than that your using about 10-15 IS per attack, more if it's an area attack

Firstly, this MKT wasn't sneak attacking, just spamming knives and only knives. And for an MA to get someone in a state they have to free fire them into it or use regular tactics whilst in IL. Both are extremely stupid when fighting an MKT. Firstly, out of IL an MKT will root you without fail so you can't get close enough to melee free fire and MKT's have a high ballistic defense so using guns is out of the question aswell. Trying to use regular tactics in IL with a knifer is also extremely stupid, MA's will have a rather low thrown defense so the MKT will spam knives while you will miss with your regular tactics while taking thousands of knives. The lesson, it is EXTREMELY hard to get an MKT into a state as an MA. So saying state required specials balance things is just plain wrong.

Most of the suggestion that mkt is overpowered derives from the ability to spam knives, but that is a bug, not part of the design, and needs to be fixed plain and simple...once it is MKT will most likely be underpowered compared to other classes (we can argue that it *might* be overpowered now but remove the significant buff given by the occasional spammed attack - it can happen by accident - and a very different picture emerges)

The range of knives means the user is very close and once out of stealth very vulnerable. Knives in IL are high powered yeah but no more so than special attacks for MA or gunman and once the IS is gone a spy's tactic attacks are barely strong enough to counter normal health regen. The only other factor that gives spy any real power is ignorance on the part of the enemy, but thats a can of worms in its own right.

Fix the problems and bugs BEFORE there is ANY thought of further balancing to spy.

who cares if hacker can beat spy? hackers are few and far between these days and they get eaten alive by the numerous gunmen and MAs.

Well Garu, it appears you completely ignored the section of my post where it says MA's find it EXTREMELY hard to get MKT's into a state. Let me repeat it to you.

Sorry dude, but since CR2, I've been a Kung Fu Grandmaster, Karate Grandmaster, Duelist, Sniper, Ballista, Destroyer, Upgrade Master, Master Shadow and Master Assassin.

Firstly, if you NEED a state to kill an MKT, then you are a poor MA.  I'm just going to be frank (you can be Lindsey).  With MA, I only needed Sky-High, Extreme Falling Kick and Machine-gun punch to completely annihilate an opponent.  None of them require a state and can easily destroy 2600 health points.

If you're waiting for that magical finisher with a state-required special, then you're wasting time.  Not because its hard to state an MKT, but because you're showboating and want a dramatic kill.  Get the job done or go home.  That simple.

All gunmen have rooting/speed debuffing moves.  I've fought plenty of MKT and got away because of Immobilizing Shot and Disabling Shot. 

I have 4 50s and I PVP on Vector and Recursion, so I've had my fair share of variety to test on.  I've faced incredibly buffed MKTs and lost poorly.  I found them later with buffs, and iced them, and vice-versa.

Simply put:  Sometimes you win, sometimes you don't. 

FYI:  Why do I choose Master Assassin?  Because I like it.  I've been one since December of 2004 in BETA.  Call me old-school, but bulldog still rocks.    Secondly, I'm machinist, so I tend to see red zergs more often than blue ones.

a rock-paper-scissors system is terrible.  builds should have advantages over others, but there should be no guaranteed wins.  my guess is almost all of you are MKTs and are desperate to keep the system the way it is bc you have a CQ field day with everybody.

the solution is to give other builds some thrown defense % bonuses so they stand a chance.  everytime an MKT interlocks me i'm amazed.  I'm an MA, IL should be MY TERRITORY.  yet somehow i get riddled with knives by my IL opponent  and from the 20 MKTs surrounding me.  yes 20 MKTs.

Back in CR1, they used to gripe about Riflemen until everyone discovered Dodge Ranged.  Prior to that it was hackers until they dumped 20 memory slots in to deflection.

Soon as they discover the secret to surviving knives, it'll be something else.  Bet money?

and what is so wrong with the word *CENSORED*?  *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* i have a *CENSORED* as i'm sure you do.

and what is so wrong with the word *CENSORED*?  *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* i have a *CENSORED* as i'm sure you do.

who wants to join the pen 15 club?

my god i'm not saying builds shouldn't have advantages over other builds.  i'm saying the game shouldn't be a paper-rock-scissors system where 1 build is completely dominant over a particular other build.  it should be team vs team, not player vs player. (MMORPG = Massively-Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game)

... it's not worth the trouble bc pvp has gotten boring anyways ...

Firstly, I was quoting the futility of an MA trying to get an MKT into a state because you, Garu, were trying to use it to justify that MA's were balanced against MKT's. Don't assume anything about the way I PVP. You said MA's have state specials so they are balanced against MKT's. I've said that MA's can't get people into states to use those state specials. ..........

Secondly, someone was saying something about MA's being rooted, then they free fire the MKT into a state and when the root ends they IL and pwn them.

And your latest post just rebutted your whole state specials thing anyway, you were saying you may as well not bother. I whole heartedly agree, they only way to fight these days is spam specials.

Do you people even read my posts?

Incorrect.

I said that the advantages all other trees have is high-powered moves that requires states.  MKT's have no moves that require states because none of their moves are high-powered, save their initial interlocking move (i.e. punt). 

My latest post was in response to your accusation that its so hard to get an MKT in a state.  The point of my thread was that if you NEED a state to win against an MKT inside interlock, then you are not a very good MA.  And before you shet a brick, "You" is general.

As an MA, my moves were not tailored to needing states.  I didn't spam specials, I just knew which moves to apply and in the right order.  3 hits and I could kill 90% of whom I interlocked (provided there was no zerg killing me outside of IL).

And yes, I do read your posts.  To imply that I do not simply because I only address points I disagree with is...well, rude.  If I don't bring up something you said, it's generally because I agree with you or that I feel its more important to focus on something else.

/formalbow

Cr2 claimed to put more of an emphasis on player skill in pvp and although I am not a fan of CR2 I think this discussion makes it clear it did achieve this aim. There are ways to use a build effectively and ways to miss a builds full potential. By design you should not be able to comprehensively defend against all attackers....I know from experience there are Ma's I can own and others who I would stand very little chance, same with gunmen of all flavours.

Its no good trying to relate all aspects as equal, for reason of variety spy behave different to MA which behaves different to gunmen which behaves different to hacker et al. (case in point as has been raised the mellee defense buff, the converse of which is that no spy ability is able to debuff thrown defence in a target (all other trees can buff AND debuff to max their own type of damage) etc) the application of pros and cons is different and it is there you need to look to address your issues with any class.

I say again if you are struggling against spy's you need to look to yourself and your own LO before you start making accusations of imbalance....and in any event there are far more influencial aspects outside of that envelope in far greater need of attention at this moment in time.

redalibi wrote:

and what is so wrong with the word *CENSORED*?  *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* *CENSORED* i have a *CENSORED* as i'm sure you do.

who wants to join the pen 15 club?

*sigh* this shows how mature some peeps in our community are.