Let's talk spy......

Only one question, why do you think does the forum have filters for several words? Right, cause they don't belong to a game forum.

1. Punt you for unbelievably large amounts of damage, seeming punt is the most powerful attack in the game.
2. Root you on the spot permanently with a plethora of knives that slow and root you.
3. Control IL like no other class, spamming knives and rolling out at whim (If you can't do that you suck as an MKT)
4. Hit you with a staggering throw from out of IL for, again, stupidly large amounts of damage where snipers must buff up for a few seconds (more like 10 seconds) to equal that sort of damage.
5. Never run out of IS cause the knives simply don't cost enough IS.
6. Throw a never ending spam of knives regardless of IL cue with timers that are all screwed up.

So you think its perfectly ok that Spy's can:

1. Punt you for unbelievably large amounts of damage, seeming punt is the most powerful attack in the game.
2. Root you on the spot permanently with a plethora of knives that slow and root you.
3. Control IL like no other class, spamming knives and rolling out at whim (If you can't do that you suck as an MKT)
4. Hit you with a staggering throw from out of IL for, again, stupidly large amounts of damage where snipers must buff up for a few seconds (more like 10 seconds) to equal that sort of damage.
5. Never run out of IS cause the knives simply don't cost enough IS.
6. Throw a never ending spam of knives regardless of IL cue with timers that are all screwed up.

MKT's can make ONE build, just ONE build that can pwn you hard. Other classes must tailor their LO to fight a specific enemy, but MKT's can woop your arse with the one load, regardless of what tactics/LO you are using the one universal MKT LO can rip you several new arseholes. Hackers can make an LO that pwn in IL, but then they miss out on the awesome AoE hax. OR they can take the AoE hax but suck in IL. MA's can take up Aikido GM to woop MKT's, but then suck vs other classes. Gunmen can take up duelist/SMG specialist to pwn in IL but won't be as effective out of IL, or they can take Sniper to snipe the zerg, but once they are IL'd they are at a disadvantage (Or if they miss the sniper shot).

Why should MKT be able to pwn everything and anything with the one load they all use and the one tactics they all use. ie SPAM knives, or punt then SPAM knives. This simply is NOT balanced.

And Garu, I was requesting others read my posts, not you.

People are saying we should pop anti's when fighting MKT's, but why should we have to waste piles of $Info and time farming  the frags/bits just to have a fighting chance against them?

There are many builds people will complain about but you need to also understand when a build is useful.

If facing a lot of spies hacker is the most effective way to deal with them. Anyone who gets experienced with a loadout can beat any tree, its just about learning what you need to do. Spies hate to be rooted, so guess what you should do... even though gunman is technically the weakest against spies I've beaten many spies both inside and outside IL. Spies really need to rely on stealth so you need to be able to counter that, dont stand still in 1 space, adjust your loadout to take them down quickly, breaking their own shield is one of the most effective ways.

A lot of people who get killed by spies tend to be gunman, spies are hesistant against MA, because a good MA can destroy a spy. Spies hate hackers, you will see more punts missing against a hacker than anyone else. Spies are not that effective in team work, they need to rely more on getting away and staying in sneak.

People seem to complain most when a loadout can beat them, instead of learning why it is and the best way to counter it. As stated by people this system is a lot more balanced than it ever has been, but it also requires a lot of key decisions, dont load spy defense or resistance you run a risk, you need to choose carefully how you design your loadout based on who your facing.

Also try using block tactics against a spy, you'd be suprised how much they miss.

So you think its perfectly ok that Spy's can:

1. Punt you for unbelievably large amounts of damage, seeming punt is the most powerful attack in the game.
2. Root you on the spot permanently with a plethora of knives that slow and root you.
3. Control IL like no other class, spamming knives and rolling out at whim (If you can't do that you suck as an MKT)
4. Hit you with a staggering throw from out of IL for, again, stupidly large amounts of damage where snipers must buff up for a few seconds (more like 10 seconds) to equal that sort of damage.
5. Never run out of IS cause the knives simply don't cost enough IS.
6. Throw a never ending spam of knives regardless of IL cue with timers that are all screwed up.
   

I am extremely tired of this argument.

I have alot of expereince with this game. I know whow the system works, I know how o test for flaws and I know when a fight is not going farely. I've seen bug after bug exploited, I've seen people brag about beating people when using exploits. WHat have I learned in all this time...   If nothing changes, then nothing changes.

It seems it's time for the Devs to chime in here and officially say if MKT needs fixing or if they feel it is balanced as it is.

I'm tired of reading "You suck cause you can't beat my MKT load, stop screaming for nerfs cause I pwned you"  Well you didn't pwn me, I have tested extensively, and I'm sure that the specific MKT loadout that most people are using right now does have unfair advantages over most other loadouts.

I've been a Hacker, a Gunman, a Martial Artist, and a Spy, I've pwned with all of them. And, I will tell you some require more skill and practice than others. IMHO, Spy requires the least amount of skill, particularly since CR2.0 and the advent of knives in interlock. This is a function of the system that is entirely new, and is yet to be properly balanced.

It's just that simple, and I wish a Dev would come in here and either confirm or deny what we have all experienced already. Namely, MKT has an unfair advantage over all other loadouts except Hackers, mostly due to the insignificant Thrown defense in the other operative styles.

Now you are going to say, but I can beat an MKT with my XYZ loadout. Keep in mind for scientific evidence the result must be repeatable. The occassional win doesn't really make for a valid case. Just as the occassional miss of a knife doesn't mean your accuracy sucks. But when an MA wins only 10 rounds out of 100 (special vs special) against an MKT, and it's repeatable, it is safe to assume that something is not right.

So let's stop clouding the truth with ignorant comments and finger pointing. Instead lets ask the Devs to do some testing of their own and determine if changes need to be made or not. Then they need to publicly announce their findings, and put this argument to rest.

-AA

IMHO, Spy requires the least amount of skill

Ok, before I start, let me refer back to an part of an article posted when CR 2.0 went live.

Stat Influence Bonuses
Combat Revision 2.0 also makes your Stats (formerly "Attributes" more important in designing your character. Each Stat (Focus, Perception, Belief, Reason, and Vitality) now has a number of Influence bonuses that increase aspects of Abilities you use in the game. For every Stat point you have above 5, you get a +2% bonus to every Influence under that Stat.

Ballistic Accuracy
Ballistic Resistance
Melee Damage
Melee Defense
Force Combat
Heal Damage
Root Duration
Stun Duration

Perception

Thrown Accuracy
Thrown Resistance
Ballistic Damage
Ballistic Defense
Evade Interlock
Sneak Movement Speed
Invisible Movement Speed
Sweeps

Reason

Viral Resistance
Viral Accuracy
Thrown Damage
Thrown Defense
Inner Strength Cost Modifier
Powerlessness Duration
Confuse Duration

Melee Accuracy
Melee Resistance
Viral Damage
Viral Defense
Movement Speed
Buff Area Radius
Debuff Area Radius
Blind Duration
Pacify Duration

Vitality

Maximum Inner Strength
Maximum Health
Health Regeneration Rate
Health Sitting Regeneration Rate
Health Standing Regeneration Rate
Determination
Inner Strength Regeneration Rate
Inner Strength Sitting Regeneration Rate
Inner Strength Standing Regeneration Rate
Contested Withdraw
Initiative

From what I've seen, the current trend in stats is to max out the two catagories that have your class's Accuracy and Damage bonuses and dump the rest in Vitality.  The two stats that are going to be the most effective in fighting an MKT are going to be Perception (Thrown Resistance) and Reason (Thrown Defense.)  Well, if you are following the "30 30 dump the rest in Vitality" stat configuration, the only two classes that are inherently going to do well against a spy are Hackers, who will get the most Thrown Defense, or Gunman and other spys, who will have naturally higher Thrown Resistance. 

 Now, I'm am definently not saying that this is a problem.  The problems come when everyone starts using the "30 30 dump" stats.  Right from the get go of CR 2.0, we were all told that stats would have a much larger influence over our characters.  Ever try missioning without setting your stats after a stat hack?  CR 2.0, and this game in gereral, is about sacrafice.  Give up this ability so you can get this one...  Wear these clothes but lose these buffs from these other clothes...   Stats are no different.  You want to have more luck fighting an MKT?  Try ditching your trusty "30 30 dump" stat routine and mixing it up a bit.  You might be pleasntly suprised.

 I'm not saying MKT is without it flaws.  I've run MKT since CR 2.0 hit and it didn't get really uber until the IS costs were dropped.  They shouldn't be the same as they were, but they do need a bit of a reduction. 

 Anyway, I'm not saying anyone sucks or is a noob or anything, but try messing with your stats a bit more and see if that helps.

-SP

You want to have more luck fighting an MKT?  Try ditching your trusty "30 30 dump" stat routine and mixing it up a bit.  You might be pleasntly suprised.

 Anyway, I'm not saying anyone sucks or is a noob or anything, but try messing with your stats a bit more and see if that helps.

-SP

This isnt 9Dragons guys

having everyone load up Kung-fu will make the game gh3y and unoriginal

bassically the same thing over and over and over and over

by fighting spy's your spicing up the game a little bit

And just because YOUR not used to fighting us doesn't mean you get to come on the boards

and moan and *CENSORED*

may i have a suggestion for you clothing macros.....

Also i Guarantee the same people that are complaining are using trolls hide and 3% accuracy clothing or 3%

damage


Let me let you in on a little secret your 3% clothing is useless......

That is exactly the type of comment I'm talking about. Subjective, illogical assumptions, in no way grounded in fact.

As for adjusting stats... also illogical. I guess what you don't know is I wrote the CR2.0 stats guide and although I've revised that some over the months I still know that the problem is not a lack of thrown defense bonus. How do I know you say...  alow me to explain.

I have equal bonues for Ballistic Defense and Thrown Defense. With my hyper abilities running there is only 4 points difference between the 2 defense point totals. ( i.e. Kung Fu style+hyper dodge = 110pts B.def; Kung Fu style+hyper sense = 106pts T. def ) Now, with hyper dodge running, I have about a 50% chance to dodge a free fire ballistic special.  However, with hyper sense running I only have roughly a 10% chance to dodge a free fire thrown attack (knives mainly)

OK so if I respec my stats ever so carfully I can maintain my same M.acc & M.dmg bonuses and get ~30% thrown defense bonus. That gives me about 20 more points of thrown defense w/ hyper sense running, and still only a 15% chance to dodge those free fire knife attacks. Reminds me alot of CR1.0 when you had to load VD skills to have any chance at all in PVP. Let us not forget that CR2.0 was supposed to fix this type of inbalance.

I've tested this several times, and I assure you the numbers don't lie. So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

I'm not sure if this was referring to my post (please disreagard if it wasn't), but I didn't feel it was ignorant or subjective at all.  Stats are a huge factor, and the "30 30 dump" just dosn't make for an all around good PvP load.  I never claimed for it to be an end all solution, but I personally find it much more effective against all classes, mkt included, to use less conventional stats.

-SP

Xiose wrote:

This isnt 9Dragons guys

having everyone load up Kung-fu will make the game gh3y and unoriginal

bassically the same thing over and over and over and over

by fighting spy's your spicing up the game a little bit

And just because YOUR not used to fighting us doesn't mean you get to come on the boards

and moan and *CENSORED*

may i have a suggestion for you clothing macros.....

Also i Guarantee the same people that are complaining are using trolls hide and 3% accuracy clothing or 3%

damage


Let me let you in on a little secret your 3% clothing is useless......

That is exactly the type of comment I'm talking about. Subjective, illogical assumptions, in no way grounded in fact.

As for adjusting stats... also illogical. I guess what you don't know is I wrote the CR2.0 stats guide and although I've revised that some over the months I still know that the problem is not a lack of thrown defense bonus. How do I know you say...  alow me to explain.

I have equal bonues for Ballistic Defense and Thrown Defense. With my hyper abilities running there is only 4 points difference between the 2 defense point totals. ( i.e. Kung Fu style+hyper dodge = 110pts B.def; Kung Fu style+hyper sense = 106pts T. def ) Now, with hyper dodge running, I have about a 50% chance to dodge a free fire ballistic special.  However, with hyper sense running I only have roughly a 10% chance to dodge a free fire thrown attack (knives mainly)

OK so if I respec my stats ever so carfully I can maintain my same M.acc & M.dmg bonuses and get ~30% thrown defense bonus. That gives me about 20 more points of thrown defense w/ hyper sense running, and still only a 15% chance to dodge those free fire knife attacks. Reminds me alot of CR1.0 when you had to load VD skills to have any chance at all in PVP. Let us not forget that CR2.0 was supposed to fix this type of inbalance.

I've tested this several times, and I assure you the numbers don't lie. So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

Xiose wrote:

This isnt 9Dragons guys

having everyone load up Kung-fu will make the game gh3y and unoriginal

bassically the same thing over and over and over and over

by fighting spy's your spicing up the game a little bit

And just because YOUR not used to fighting us doesn't mean you get to come on the boards

and moan and *CENSORED*

may i have a suggestion for you clothing macros.....

Also i Guarantee the same people that are complaining are using trolls hide and 3% accuracy clothing or 3%

damage


Let me let you in on a little secret your 3% clothing is useless......

That is exactly the type of comment I'm talking about. Subjective, illogical assumptions, in no way grounded in fact.

As for adjusting stats... also illogical. I guess what you don't know is I wrote the CR2.0 stats guide and although I've revised that some over the months I still know that the problem is not a lack of thrown defense bonus. How do I know you say...  alow me to explain.

I have equal bonues for Ballistic Defense and Thrown Defense. With my hyper abilities running there is only 4 points difference between the 2 defense point totals. ( i.e. Kung Fu style+hyper dodge = 110pts B.def; Kung Fu style+hyper sense = 106pts T. def ) Now, with hyper dodge running, I have about a 50% chance to dodge a free fire ballistic special.  However, with hyper sense running I only have roughly a 10% chance to dodge a free fire thrown attack (knives mainly)

OK so if I respec my stats ever so carfully I can maintain my same M.acc & M.dmg bonuses and get ~30% thrown defense bonus. That gives me about 20 more points of thrown defense w/ hyper sense running, and still only a 15% chance to dodge those free fire knife attacks. Reminds me alot of CR1.0 when you had to load VD skills to have any chance at all in PVP. Let us not forget that CR2.0 was supposed to fix this type of inbalance.

I've tested this several times, and I assure you the numbers don't lie. So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

Okay so why do i not have a problem againsit MKTs with guns and MA's BUT YOU DO!


How about you do this you candy land scrub

Wear all SHIELDED yes i said SHIELDED clothing

And have your thrown res capped

Guess WHAT!!!!!!

Problem Solved NO MORE 300 DMG Deadly THROWS!



I MUST BE GENIUS I FIGURED THIS OUT


~edit~

and please dont give me i wear melle and ball ress instead tho

guess what amcros were amde for a reason use them!

Cause guess what i do and so does every " good" player

That works, in a 1on1 fight, trust me I know. But still having high thrown res isn't going to assure you victory everytime. If you are saying that you can win every 1on1 fight against an MKT simply buy maxing thrown resistance I'd say you are either lying or cheating. And, once again you show your ignorance if you think no one but yourself has ever thought about trying that. However, in general PVP (or on vector) this doesn't work. cause you will have several people attacking you at once from all directions with all types of attacks. It makes more sense to balance your resistances in such a way as to be able to cap them with use of the resistance buff(s).

As for macroing clothing, gee thanks guy, I'll pass that along to the dozens of people I've taught how to code macros for this game.

Xiose wrote:

Okay so why do i not have a problem againsit MKTs with guns and MA's BUT YOU DO!


How about you do this you candy land scrub

Wear all SHIELDED yes i said SHIELDED clothing

And have your thrown res capped

Guess WHAT!!!!!!

Problem Solved NO MORE 300 DMG Deadly THROWS!



I MUST BE GENIUS I FIGURED THIS OUT


~edit~

and please dont give me i wear melle and ball ress instead tho

guess what amcros were amde for a reason use them!

Cause guess what i do and so does every " good" player

That works, in a 1on1 fight, trust me I know. But still having high thrown res isn't going to assure you victory everytime. If you are saying that you can win every 1on1 fight against an MKT simply buy maxing thrown resistance I'd say you are either lying or cheating. And, once again you show your ignorance if you think no one but yourself has ever thought about trying that. However, in general PVP (or on vector) this doesn't work. cause you will have several people attacking you at once from all directions with all types of attacks. It makes more sense to balance your resistances in such a way as to be able to cap them with use of the resistance buff(s).

As for macroing clothing, gee thanks guy, I'll pass that along to the dozens of people I've taught how to code macros for this game.

dude man seriosuly your not good at this game

you dont know the system

just stop



whatever

LMFAO, this is where you hope I get angry and start popping off at the mouth with smart *CENSORED* comments, not unlike yourself. However, I'm a bit more mature and more intelligent than that, obviously.

It stands to reason that you are actually speaking of yourself with the above comments. It's ok though there is still hope for you. Just keep this in mind Talent+Practice=Skill, that should get you started kiddo.

Oh! wait, back on topic, MKT and all. There is still something not quite right about this loadout, despite your personal opinion of my skill. Once again you show your ignorance by attacking me personally and side-steping the issue at hand.

I love how one topic turns into accusations of "this game is dying because...."

And Tenshi, if you haven't tested MKT or hacker for yourself, no offense, but you have no business taking sides on an issue which a) you have no experience with, and b) both sides have presented evidence for.

Xiose wrote:

dude man seriosuly your not good at this game

you dont know the system

just stop



whatever

LMFAO, this is where you hope I get angry and start popping off at the mouth with smart *CENSORED* comments, not unlike yourself. However, I'm a bit more mature and more intelligent than that, obviously.

It stands to reason that you are actually speaking of yourself with the above comments. It's ok though there is still hope for you. Just keep this in mind Talent+Practice=Skill, that should get you started kiddo.

Oh! wait, back on topic, MKT and all. There is still something not quite right about this loadout, despite your personal opinion of my skill. Once again you show your ignorance by attacking me personally and side-steping the issue at hand.

Every tree should have a disadvantage, but MKT doesn't, end of story, thats why they are so effective cause you can never get them on the back foot.

Please see my comments here.

9mmfu wrote:

Please see my comments here.

WOHOO
My dream came true. Ahhhhhh

 Try ditching your trusty "30 30 dump" stat routine and mixing it up a bit.

Arcanoloth wrote:

Every tree should have a disadvantage, but MKT doesn't, end of story, thats why they are so effective cause you can never get them on the back foot.

oh we dont?

what about are serious issue of No IS?

But you know everything continue on.

MA: Bad outside of IL, but dodge most knives unless on speed and boosted. A good MA can kill a MKT in IL unless the MKT gets a sneak attack in. MKTs have no "instant damage" like Skyhigh/EFK aside from Sneak attacks, which are able to be blocked. You can't always tell when your opponent is about to use EFK in IL.

MKT: Good outside of IL against Gunmen, and the occasional MA.

Hackers: Destroy MKTs outside of IL. Very good in IL as well.

Snipers: Fine in IL if you make a loadout that differs from the standard 30 30 Sniper Rifleman combo. Of course they die to MKT though, they're supposed to.

Also your comment about "so what if they run out of IS" really seems to ignore the fact that Gunmen and MA have free fire... MKTs have to settle for a no-dmg standard attack in IL, or switching styles to use a gun, with which they have very little accuracy.

MA: Bad outside of IL, but dodge most knives unless on speed and boosted. A good MA can kill a MKT in IL unless the MKT gets a sneak attack in. MKTs have no "instant damage" like Skyhigh/EFK aside from Sneak attacks, which are able to be blocked. You can't always tell when your opponent is about to use EFK in IL.

MKT: Good outside of IL against Gunmen, and the occasional MA.

Hackers: Destroy MKTs outside of IL. Very good in IL as well.

Snipers: Fine in IL if you make a loadout that differs from the standard 30 30 Sniper Rifleman combo. Of course they die to MKT though, they're supposed to.

Also your comment about "so what if they run out of IS" really seems to ignore the fact that Gunmen and MA have free fire... MKTs have to settle for a no-dmg standard attack in IL, or switching styles to use a gun, with which they have very little accuracy.

Jilted1 wrote:

So please, please, please stop making ignorant, subjective remarks. You are only making the problem worse and prolonging the enevitable. We already have scores of players leaving every week, and those of us that have patiently been waiting for this game to be finished are really starting to get fed up. I've seen the numbers dwindle over the years, slowly but surely this game is dying, and you are not part of the solution.

I'm not sure if this was referring to my post (please disreagard if it wasn't), but I didn't feel it was ignorant or subjective at all.  Stats are a huge factor, and the "30 30 dump" just dosn't make for an all around good PvP load.  I never claimed for it to be an end all solution, but I personally find it much more effective against all classes, mkt included, to use less conventional stats.

-SP

MKTS racking up kills it's not all skill It's just the luck fighting so many gunmen and martial artists that dont rely on thrown defense. Notice how much more difficult it can be when an MKT fights another MKT?

Duelist that are so use to beating MAs it's mainly because the MAs are NOT depending on PERCEPTION points to get ballistic defense.

Once the community takes full notice of this and the level of play evolves, you'll see MKTs and Duelist having more challenging days vs other trees that they normally dominate due to everyone using 30/30 stats

It's a difficult way of life for an MA in pvp cr2 but the more you guys stop thinking like a bunch of Ken and Ryus and more like some Jackie Chans and Jet Lis, things will get a bit better

 I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak.

Hmm, now that's a good idea.  Scratch that.  That's a really really really good idea.

The only problem is that with the way the NPC's currently are, its near impossible to sneak in a mission area at a low lvl without being detected and popped out of sneak.  If the NPC's detection was lowered, or sneak attacks only worked out of disguise on NPC's, I think it would work.

Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy. 

I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time.

You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on.

I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this).

You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat.

Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.

Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is!

Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)

Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system!

((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))

Arcanoloth wrote:

Before I turned into a hacker (YES I AM TRYING TO SOLVE THIS AS A HACKER) I used Aikido GM with a reason of 20, just for the thrown defense. I would have Aikido style, hyper sense and a reasonably good reason (hehe, bad pun), but MKT's still rolled over me. Why? Cause even with those stats my thrown defense was still *CENSORED* compared to an MKT's accuracy. 

I have a reason of 30 as a hacker, even when I use block tactics when I get IL'd they hit me half the time. Their accuracy is simply FAR too high for any tree to hope to counter, except an Aikido GM with a reason of 30. Right now even hackers have a 50/50 success ratio against them, the better hackers might be 75/25 but its still not nearly as good as you could hope. I hit MKT's with UI lag 2.0 (Thrown acc -20) and they still spam knives against my thrown defense of +140 and hit me all the time.

You are using Cr1 princples in the cr2 world if your thrown defence=an opponents thrown accuracy you would expect a 50/50 sucess rate assuming other factors are equal, but cr2 throws an additional randomness to rolls (witness a level 30 being able to hit a level 50 etc) to make direct comparisons almost impossible. You will find that most Spy's max accuracy via clothing buffs often to the exclusion of resistance the reason being that without their specials spys do negligible damage with free fire and style moves...their specials have to land moreso than any other tree becasue they have nothing to fall back on.

So what your saying is that MKT's Need to have uber accurate specials cause their free fire sucks. Well colour me surprised but as far as I'm concerned MA's have a free fire attack that sucks, they have to get within melee range of you and with other gunman/MKT's/Hackers having access to a plethora of slowing/rooting moves this can be very very hard to do. What about hackers? The have nothing to fall back onto either but are they super accurate? Thats a big fat NO, everyone else even has the luxury of having perma hyper-deflect making life even harder for hackers, who also suffer from a *CENSORED* free fire attack, worse than MKT actually, at least MKT's have a high ballistic damage, hackers get nothing but melee accuracy, and what kind of self respecting hacker would want to melee someone when they have run out of IS? Is it not unreasonable to assume that if your defense is equal to their accuracy then you can dodge half their attacks, that seems pretty *CENSORED* reasonable and logical to me.

This super high accuracy of MKT's also gives them an outright advantage in IL, cause they are more accurate than any other tree ability spamming is distinctly in their favour. They will outroll your accuracy far more often and roll right over any specials you try. That is a self defeating statement you made there.

I hit them with inefficiency field 2.0 (IS cost reduction -50%, IS regen rate -100%) and for the entire 30 seconds that it affects them they spam knives without fail and when the duration ends they keep spamming, I have never NEVER seen an MKT run out of IS unless they were heavily debuffed (Destroy resolve is the only thing that can do this).

You must have a very limited experience, it only takes a few knives to miss and most spys need to consider a retreat.

Is  that even addressing my point, what I have been saying is MKT's IS costs are far too low, even when they are debuffed so IS costs are extremely high they seem to be able to spam with the rest of them.

Their sneak attacks are pretty stupid aswell, they just run around in combat waiting to find someone with no shield to punt, they only need a disguise on to do this so they can run around easily, even worse is when they do this as blues. So what we have is an invulnerable person running around combat that you are COMPLETELY incapable of stopping waiting for your shield to be busted so they can punt you for 1000+ dmg. Or they can run around in a disguise waiting for the staggering throw symbol to light up, they click that and 3 seconds later someone is sans 800 health. How is that fair? I say remove disguises from the sneak attack abilities, they actually should be in sneak. That way it is a challenge to punt someone, and the absurd amount of damage is your fair reward for the skill required. They can keep their effectiveness with knives for all I care as long as sneak attacks are harder to get, or you can nerf knives but leave sneak attacks as they are. Cause right now those are HUGE advantages for them and one should be removed.

Are you really saying here that someone can run around with a disguise and everyone just sits back not bothering to ensure their evades arent up and making no attempt to fire at them (its not as if their intention isnt clear) upon which its pretty easy to break a disguise (and take their evade from them you can IL them way before their abilities become avialable). I cant speak for non-hostile but you get caught like this on vector and you most staunch ally would be howling with laughter! Evade costs all of 1 mem and is available to every player at every level for heavens sake can you not see how silly the scenario you paint is!

Read my words next time, blue MKT's in disguise have a free ticket to 1000+ damage with a punt, there is NO way to stop someone who you can't shoot. I said BLUE MKT's, BLUE, NOT FLAGGED UP, NOT PVP FLAGGED, THEY DO NOT HAVE THE LITTLE GUN SYMBOL NEXT TO THEIR NAME. And even if they are PvP is extremely hectic, an MA is running at you full blast, you try to root them, they deflect it and bust your shield, you hit them with a code root and back up, suddenly an MKT running a million miles an hour IN A DISGUISE comes up beside you and punts you, theres not a thing you can do when your shield was busted only 5 seconds ago, and because they are in disguise they they can cross the battlefield in the blink of an eye and punt you (With hyperspeed of course). They don't even need to be behind you, they can be practically in front of you and get the punt off. In mass PvP the lag also messes with you, you think you got away, *rubber band* oh snap no I got punted. Look at what you are saying, OF COURSE I HAVE EVADE, its has a 30 second reuse timer. What do you want me to do, HJ away the moment my shield is down? Cause as long as my shield is down you can guarantee all the scavenger MKT's will come and Punt me from behind, beside or almost directly in front of me. Theres no use timer on it either, so it is so quick NO ONE can avoid it unless they have their shield up. If they coordinated it so the MKT was in sneak behind me, props to them, that is actual skill, but an MKT can stand on the flanks in a disguise watching an MA, doesn't even have to be the same org as them, the moment they break a shield they run into the battle clicking on the punt button until they get into range and punt the unfortunate victim.
Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)

Dagonet isnt an MKT, but he can defend against them and knows the combat system well, there are plenty of players I can think of more than capable of making an mkt run, their existence proves this tree is far more balanced than you give it credit for and further it porves the solution to your problems lies squarely on your shoulders.....what better testment for a combat system!

Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity?
((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))

Spy is a pvp build NOT a duelling build and there is quite a bit of difference, in situations where battles rage the disguise is essential because sneak is too slow...you need to withdraw from the field away from foes and engage and get back to your target etc without stealth breaking.

Everyone and anyone can 'blueshot'.  Spies can Punt, Hackers can Logic Cannon, Snipers can Snipe and the list goes on. 
Also, if you're outnumbered - vs an MA and a spy as per your scenario - then expect to be killed.  That's your problem, not the game system's.

Arcanoloth wrote:

Of course people can beat MKT's, doesn't change the fact some element of it is overpowered, you must have missed that last statement saying I didn't mean those lines above, but hey, when you can make someone look like they suck why avoid the opportunity?

I was going to write a fuller reply but MAVE pretty much covered it in a well worded reply above. For the record I come from Vector and didnt pick up the concept of blue-shots, I apologise for that misunderstanding but that issue is not spy specific and I would support a change to the mechanism by which players invoke pvp in order to eliminate that very cheap behaviour on non-hostile worlds.

I have always conceded there are aspects that require balancing but that applies to all trees and certainly the recent re-emergence of hacker as a valid pvp build suggests there is more depth to pvp that needs understanding before that balance takes place. Further changes suggested elsewehere for multi-fighting, the change of how hypers apply  etc could have more benefit to everyday pvp and significantly change the balance of all trees, that argument needs careful study, before the nerf issue rises again.

I havent a clue what I was supposed to make of the statement 'i didnt mean those lines above' it certainly wasnt clear to me and again I apologise - it wasn't my intention to give this impression but your own aggressive tone hasnt helped to dispel the possibility!

GypsyJuggler wrote:

Everyone and anyone can 'blueshot'.  Spies can Punt, Hackers can Logic Cannon, Snipers can Snipe and the list goes on. 
Also, if you're outnumbered - vs an MA and a spy as per your scenario - then expect to be killed.  That's your problem, not the game system's.

QFMFT

Arcanoloth:

If you're angry about a spy blue shotting...let me say this as nicely as I can....

HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHAH

Okay...seriously. Blue shotting is not a valid excuse. Everyone can blue shot. If your grief is a blue shot, go to Vector. Otherwise, stop crying. Seriously...The downside of PvP being on a Normal Server....is a BLUE SHOT! =O

Anyway with that out of the way, let me address a few issues.

Defense: There is already a thread discussing making it so you can run only two defenses at a time, instead of just Hyper Deflect + any other three. Why not support that so you can run HyperSense+Any Extra one? That would help wouldn't it? Also, add extra points to thrown defense the styles in game. But only a small amount, because defense should mainly come from Attributes + Hyper (Fill In Blank Here).

Inefficiency field helps a lot. Trust me. But you know what else helps? Zone Of Powerlessness. Wanna drop an MKT from throwing knives? ZoP, Slow, move back, Logic Canon 2.0. And as a hacker, if you can't take an MKT, you really need practice. On Recursion, we have real good hackers who know what they're doing.

Overpowered? No. Spy itself isn't overpowered. It's certain abilities like Neuro Dart that are overpowered. High accuracy? Have you seen some of these people who aren't spy that have Super High Accuracy with Ballisitc? Why not nerf their accuracy? =O But no....this game has become a MA + Guns game. I'm spy. Learn to deal with it. Nerf it all you want. I'll adapt regardless. But don't expect me to keep quiet when we get Unfair nerfs.

Oh...and an Idea about Thrown Accuracy in IL. You want lower Accuracy in IL? Give us higher sucess rates on Rollout abilities? Seems only fair since we're not an IL class.

And Disguises shouldn't count? Ummmm No. It's a Spy Ability which we can use. There is nothing wrong with a spy using disguise. I think this has become a personal thing against Spy loadouts, and not a logical one anymore. So I'll sit back and enjoy the show.

::drinks lemonade::

1. Nerf them in IL, give them an accuracy downgrade, this would require the rollout abilities be improved. Wait a sec, hackers get an accuracy downgrade but no rollout abilities <----Sarcasm.
2. Nerf their sneak attacks, require them to actually BE IN SNEAK, rather than a stupid agent or hel club guard disguise everyone knows about.
3. Nerf their knives, make them cost more IS so they can't spam ALL THE TIME and actually have to consider what to do.
4. Increase other trees thrown defense, give them a defense score that can actually dodge knives.
   

Its funny that the people saying its balanced are the MKT's in the community, they desperately don't want to lose the absurd power they have by loading up that noob of a tree. (Yes, I am blanketing you all under one generalisation, just like Dagonet did)

((No, I did not mean that last statement, just wanted to point out how stupid Dagonet's comment can sound))

Nice one Mave, be a demeaning *CENSORED* and think I will back down?

Ummmmm no. I laugh because you cry about blue shotting on a NON-HOSTILE Server. That alone is worth a few chuckles.


For the record, I do ZoP, I do Bottleneck Field, I do Inefficiency Field, but the moment most MKT's see me they pop an Anti so my debuffs will be wiped in an instant and then all that hard work does nothing.

I doubt one anti wipes out ALL those effects. You have Slow, Bottleneck, And like 3 specific root abilities. Use them.


About thrown acc in IL, thats a good idea, make them suck in IL and then give them better rollout abilities.
Make them suck in IL? No. Rather, lower their accuracy in IL but makes rolls outs higher. If you have LITTLE to NO thrown defense, you should get hit in IL by knives for not preparing.

About Blue Shots, I still maintain Spy's have the best Blue Shots. Punt has NO, (Thats right, none at all) use timer, so the INSTANT you click it, you punt someone. Want me to blue shot a Logic Cannon, sure, stand still for several seconds whilst I charge it, no no, don't move out of range, aww you avoided it by moving out of range, thats unfair. I want instant logic cannons for 1000+ dmg just like punt. Snipers, the noobs who stand still in Mara C deserve to be sniped, but again, all you have to do is move out of range while they are buffing up and it ruins the entire sniper shot. What about MA's, oh gods thats so powerful their blue shot, melee free fire needs to be nerfed. Wow, other classes really have amazingly overpowered blue shots, not nearly as good as some hyena of an MKT standing around in the middle of raging PvP not flagged up in a disguise waiting for a shield to break.

So the fact that we need an opponent NOT to be in IL and NOT to have a shield makes no difference. If you're counting "Zerg" scenarios, let's count this one? I end up ILed with person A. Person A has a friend (Person B) who is a hacker. When I get ILed, person B starts to cast Logic Cannon 2.0, Bam I get hit. Or how about Double Sniper Shots? Two people time Sniper Shots, they can go off very close to each other, Bam I died, or am hurt really bad. You're telling me I instantly punt, and my friend can instantly punt 1 second later, despite the fact that I'm still ILed? There is a lot more potential with Out of IL Specials like Logic Cannon, Sniper Shot, Full Auto Redux Etc, than punt. ::chuckles:: Also, for the love of Neo, Please don't bring up Blue Shotting again. Blue Shotting has NOTHING to do with Spy Nerfs. I'll said it once and I'll say it again. You angry about Blue Shots? GO.....TO......VECTOR......

I already posted in the thread about defense abilities aswell, I really am looking for a solution but sometimes peoples replies really *CENSORED* me off.

So, Possible solutions:

1. Nerf them in IL, give them an accuracy downgrade, this would require the rollout abilities be improved. Wait a sec, hackers get an accuracy downgrade but no rollout abilities <----Sarcasm.
   I've seen some Hackers completely OWN in IL against an MA. It's all about Accuracy Vs. Defense. Not to mention DoTs do a lot of damage from Hackers because they Stack. Sarcasm noted, but pretty useless there.
   
2. Nerf their sneak attacks, require them to actually BE IN SNEAK, rather than a stupid agent or hel club guard disguise everyone knows about.
   I am SNEAKING around in a Disguise, or at least the Game Engine says I'm sneaking around. Problem solved.
   
3. Nerf their knives, make them cost more IS so they can't spam ALL THE TIME and actually have to consider what to do.
   Nerf the Knives? We just had a patch a while back that dropped our IS costs because why? Oh that's right, we have NO FREE FIRE! So we COMPLETELY depend on our special abilities to do ANY damage at all.
   
4. Increase other trees thrown defense, give them a defense score that can actually dodge knives.
   A little addition is fine with me. But to dodge knives? No. You need to load up Hyper Sense and Thrown Resistance. You main defense should come from Attributes + Hyper (Insert Ability Here), which is influenced by Attributes..
   

I'm not saying do all of those, I'm not saying turn them into data miners. I think implementing one of those will be enough to quell most complainers, myself included.
Not really, because then it'll be US complaining, or X people complaining about a new UBAR powerful tree. It never ends really.