Is it just me, or has anyone noticed that, for a class that is not supposed to be strong in interlock, Hackers are way too powerful atm? The Devs have stated repeatedly that the Hackers job is to provide support to the interlock classes, and to keep the interlockers (MAs and Duelists) at arms length, trying to kill them at a distance, whereas the job of the interlocker is to stay alive, get the Hacker into interlock and crush him like a grape. I am consistently being wiped out by hackers in interlock (I'm a Duelist) and it's beginning to tick me off a little. I have Hyperdeflect running continuously, and my Viral Resistance is somewhere in the region of 228 when I'm fighting them ( i have a specific "Fighting Hackers" clothing macro), so why am I taking damage of 300+ each time they hit? More to the point I am getting one hit in to their two, so the reuse timers on some of those ridiculously powerful abs are a little low to say the least. I don't want this to sound like sour grapes, cos it's not. I have looked at the problem for a while now, and tried to figure several ways around it with attribute tweaks and different clothing etc etc. I'm sure some Hackers out there are going to flame this, but look at it this way, whereas I as a Duelist can hit you when you're up to 16 metres away, the average MA can't do that, so the Hacker can snot you at a distance AND do a stupid amount of damage close in. You can't have it both ways. Hacker is not supposed to be an interlock class. I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed this or felt the same way.
Strength of Hackers in interlock
69 posts · 2006-04-13 07:52:46 to 2006-05-14 04:25:17
All I know is that as a hacker I usually die in interlock pretty quick. But then I am always on withdraw - so not really trying to stay in.
They are definately too strong in interlock and ive been saying this since the ep server. They do get a penalty in interlock but I dont feel its enough. The other problem is with their ability timers and how they work in interlock. They can stack attacks back to back when other trees cant. Im sure the hackers will jump in on this post and start flaming away but im glad you posted this.
Ill also mention the hyper abilites like hyper-deflect dont have any effect when 2 people use specials in interlock. Your accuracy roll decides who wins that roll and not your defense.
Ill also mention the hyper abilites like hyper-deflect dont have any effect when 2 people use specials in interlock. Your accuracy roll decides who wins that roll and not your defense.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-13-2006 03:59 PM
I think the problem is Upgrade Attacks. My farm loadout
(Howitzer/Destroyer) does not have Upgrade Attacks, and gets trounced
by anything that cons with a color other than gray. Granted I
have only 8 Reason, but I have heard reports of people with the same
Reason easily soloing the GPS mission, the Agent mission, and the last
mission of PB arc 4. The difference between us? Upgrade
Attacks. Because of the zero-sum nature of hacks in interlock,
the extra accuracy from Upgrade Attacks make hacks very hard to stop,
even if only for twenty seconds.
Hackers can, and do get killed in PvP, but it usually takes a gang.
(Howitzer/Destroyer) does not have Upgrade Attacks, and gets trounced
by anything that cons with a color other than gray. Granted I
have only 8 Reason, but I have heard reports of people with the same
Reason easily soloing the GPS mission, the Agent mission, and the last
mission of PB arc 4. The difference between us? Upgrade
Attacks. Because of the zero-sum nature of hacks in interlock,
the extra accuracy from Upgrade Attacks make hacks very hard to stop,
even if only for twenty seconds.
Hackers can, and do get killed in PvP, but it usually takes a gang.
so begins another episode of The Krytical & Renesis Show. sans kryt, of course.
as usual, one person gets owned by loadout X and goes running to the forum to cry about it. i play hacker about 80% of the time, as many ppl know. when i get owned (again and again AND AGAIN, by KGM) do you hear me crying about it? nope, im asking for things like npcs not standing in doorways.
hacker has been nerfed quite enough. if you suck, that doesnt mean hackers are too strong, it means you have a flaw/weakness. welcome to the club =D one thing that you probly didnt take into account is initiative. since all hacker moves are specials (for some stupid reason), your special vs any hacker move = initiative. and since hackers suck in interlock most of the time (they really do.. you simply got beaten, thats all) theyre more likely to get to 50% health first, which is when the desperation ab really kicks in. plus, upgrade attacks is a good boost to accuracy, but not for very long at all. its usable in interlock, and it better be, cuz 2 very powerful ballista abs (for example) cant be used in interlock at all.
im sure youd be mildly annoyed if you couldnt use moves like EFK, which can be used back to back.
something else to consider, defense and resistance are 2 very different things. ill take defense over resistance any day. im old fashioned, id rather not get hit to begin with =P its possible your resistance is pretty good and your defense sux. review the numbers and try again, as did we all =)
Ive done all the pbox missions with only 89 viral accuracy. I didnt even need upgrade attacks. The radius bug no doubt made it much easier but it will still be easy once thats fixed. I have no problem landing attacks.
As far as the boxes themselves go read this post and see just how overpowered viral attacks are right now. 2 people can complete the pbox 4 box using howitzer. Any other tree wouldnt stand a chance with only 2 people.
Cryshal you continue to ignore the facts.
As far as the boxes themselves go read this post and see just how overpowered viral attacks are right now. 2 people can complete the pbox 4 box using howitzer. Any other tree wouldnt stand a chance with only 2 people.
Cryshal you continue to ignore the facts.
Thankyou Cryshal for your snarky response. I didn't start this thread to A) Whine or to B) trade insults with someone I don't know. Had you read the post properly, you would see that I'm asking questions. I didn't just get beaten once I got annihilated several times over a period of several days and in that time I tried to figure out a way around the problem using several solutions. This is the first time that I have used this forum in this way. I don't whine ingame, I don't moan, I just get on with it and try to have a good time. The person doing 90% of the damage to me is a Hacker who quite cheerfully admits that the tree is overpowered in interlock, and for a non-interlock class to completely destroy an interlock specialist means the game is slightly out of whack. This is a new Combat System, and as such there are going to be issues with it for the next few months I would imagine. This will mean some trees are going to dominate in areas they shouldn't. Yes we all want our characters to do well in combat, but not to the point where everything that goes up against you dies. Where is the balance in that? I am pointing out that Hacker is a non interlock class and is currently way overpowered in interlock. If you want to fight in interlock, the try MA or Duelist. As I said before, you shouldn't be able to have it both ways. Strengths and weaknesses, that's what it's about, and at the moment, I can't see that hacker has any weaknesses.
Message Edited by Bitek on 04-14-2006 01:52 AM
Message Edited by Bitek on 04-14-2006 01:52 AM
any so-called facts here are suspect at best. to begin with, i think the devs may have finally wised up about any such nerfing that you seem to need in order to continue to exist.. otherwise they would have gonzo'd spy sooner. the devs have clearly said that a handful of exchanges means nothing, you need about 1000 turns round the block for the numbers to really show anything. there are some 'issues' with karate and aikido that i think are geniune but at the last minute i kept it all to myself considering i havent made any such extended test run. and since you havent either.. go fight a hacker in interlock one thousand times. keep careful records and screenshots and blahblah.. and then maybe.
the current differences in the classes between now and before cr2 are mostly due to the effects you get from stats. theyre supposed to mean something and they do. if a hacker is powerful its cuz they sacrificed other things in other areas, for which they SHOULD get a nice bonus to whatever. i dont see you ppl complaining about the same issue in gunner or ma. do you know how good the 'dodge' is on a gunner with max perception? omgwtfhax!#$ nerf the duelists-!
This is about hackers in interlock not ranged attacks. Ranged attacks I have no problem with. My 27 belief and hyper-deflect are good enough for that but they dont help me in interlock. Im better off fighting a hacker ranged as a duelist than I am interlocking one. It should be the other way around.
My point exactly Ren.
Oh, and by the way Cryshal, if you feel the need to make snarky comments all the time, maybe you'd best keep your opinions to yourself. "Facts suspect at best"? *CENSORED* is that all about? I have no need to embelish the facts, and anyone who knows me will tell you that isn't the way I do business. I went several days before bringing this up, and for the 3rd time, I spent a considerable amount of time looking at the problem and thinking ways around it. This is a genuine concern of mine. I don't mind getting beaten, my ego isn't so huge as to deny the fact it could ever happen to me. I do get beaten frequently, but it's usually a close run thing (unless it's a full-on Merv gank). What bothers me is (and read this carefully) a non-interlock class is dominating in interlock against interlock specialist. Surely that can't be right.
Message Edited by Bitek on 04-14-2006 09:55 AM
When I get ILed, I almost always die unless I can roll out.
If you're getting killed by hackers in IL, you're doing something wrong.
If you're getting killed by hackers in IL, you're doing something wrong.
If your a hacker getting killed in interlock your doing something wrong.
If the hacker preps you with debuffs and before interlock damage (vector and DoTlvl 4 and maybe taking a quarter of your health with free attack hacks before hand for example) before he interlocks you and he has the max VA and can get stuns off without upgrade attacks then yes he can win against you in interlock, but the 20 second burst is by no means instadeath; it's not enough time to completely destroy someone, it is enough to finish someone off who you have already been working on. I seriously doubt that you where killed by a hacker in those 20 seconds without having gone into interlock already damaged or debuffed or both. The gamble with interlock hacking is...if we don't kill you fast once we get you there we're dead in the water, or crushed like a grape as you said, 20 seconds isn't really that long of a time.....
But as with most of these "imballance" threads it comes down to class envy. No the duelist tree has no burst damage abilities like the hackers do, but they have good rolls in and out of interlock AND consistant damage. That's what the class is about, consistancy. Play your class to its strengths.
But as with most of these "imballance" threads it comes down to class envy. No the duelist tree has no burst damage abilities like the hackers do, but they have good rolls in and out of interlock AND consistant damage. That's what the class is about, consistancy. Play your class to its strengths.
Message Edited by ibewarped on 04-14-2006 12:58 PM
20 secs can be up to 5 interlock rounds. If upgrade attacks is active im losing the first couple rounds of interlock guaranteed. How a hacker chooses to use those rounds differentiates between a good hacker and a poor one. Smart ones will start attacking with debuffs and weaken their opponent and then start with the viral damage attacks. Since specials can roll back to back for hackers they can several debuffs going. I can counter the debuffs by popping pills, having good determination to lessen the debuff time or loading sweep. So now I have 90 secs to kill this hacker before they can activate upgrade attacks again thats if I can hit him. Sounds like a lot to do to kill someone that shouldnt be in interlock in the first place.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-14-2006 04:12 PM
One thing I'm curious about: Have MAs been going into interlock with
hackers and not doing any specials? If the hacker does a special and
you do a normal attack, then your Viral Defense is back in play rather
than your Initiative. Either that, or max out your initiative bonus and
make good use of Desperation if your health gets low.
btw this post is not intended to be taking sides, I'm just curious if
those strategies have been in use or not, and if so, how they've worked.
hackers and not doing any specials? If the hacker does a special and
you do a normal attack, then your Viral Defense is back in play rather
than your Initiative. Either that, or max out your initiative bonus and
make good use of Desperation if your health gets low.
btw this post is not intended to be taking sides, I'm just curious if
those strategies have been in use or not, and if so, how they've worked.
Show me a video of a hacker making it through those 90 seconds against a duelist or a MA. and most of the really good debuffs don't work in interlock anyway. I'm just speaking from experience but if I don't prep someone before interlock I have one chance....stun and pray to god that I roll out and even then duelist can usually outroll a hacker stunned.
This arguement also assumes that the fight takes place in a vaccum and not the chaos of pvp. It is rather rare that I as a hacker try to go head to head with anyone, I find that I am much more successfull playing back up and avoiding the fight as much as possible as my real strength are debuffs and DOT interupts not big damage hits, but its there in case of emergencies because we lost alot of our spike damage in the new combat system.
This arguement also assumes that the fight takes place in a vaccum and not the chaos of pvp. It is rather rare that I as a hacker try to go head to head with anyone, I find that I am much more successfull playing back up and avoiding the fight as much as possible as my real strength are debuffs and DOT interupts not big damage hits, but its there in case of emergencies because we lost alot of our spike damage in the new combat system.
Message Edited by ibewarped on 04-14-2006 01:27 PM
Its possible to use normal attacks like speed, power or grab but they do a lot less damage than the viral attacks a hacker can use back to back not to mention any debuffs they might land. Its one thing to duel someone and do it and then try to do it in the middle of a pvp battle. You have to kill quick..you cant really peck away at someones health because someone else will be coming soon.
HCFrog wrote:
One thing I'm curious about: Have MAs been going into interlock with
hackers and not doing any specials? If the hacker does a special and
you do a normal attack, then your Viral Defense is back in play rather
than your Initiative. Either that, or max out your initiative bonus and
make good use of Desperation if your health gets low.
btw this post is not intended to be taking sides, I'm just curious if
those strategies have been in use or not, and if so, how they've worked.
Ill also add a hacker can get their viral accuracy up to 240 for 20 secs with upgrade attacks. Theres no way you can get enough viral deflection to overcome that in interlock or out. At least when your outside of interlock you can free fire and if you get into trouble you can back off and wait for upgrade attacks to wear off.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-14-2006 06:00 PM
DEV FROG IS GOD (MxO) that is...
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
Use your skillz and study the game.... My point in another thread...
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
Use your skillz and study the game.... My point in another thread...
LOL
Can someone show me where it says Hackers have to be weak in interlock. CR2 is about balance and strategy..... not about making MA's dominant in PVP, interlock, range or anywhere for that matter.
Message Edited by Rexxhavukk on 04-14-2006 06:49 PM
frog, it would appear that ALL hacker attacks are specials. this poses 2 serious problems.. powerless becomes stun. not very fair. and you took away our logic cannons too? fine, take away those unstoppable efk's which are impossible to outroll, even from an npc. various ma specials can be used back to back also. you must be careful to think long and hard about the motivation of all these kids calling for yet more nerfs on hacker, which has been nerfed too much and they know it. its the reason theyre REALLY getting worked up now cuz hacker was blitzed a bit too much but the smart hackers are STILL beating them? hahaha!#$
if i had a lvl50 shirt for every time an MA beat me in interlock, id be a macy's sale. comparing the performance of one class to another just demonstrates the ignorance of the proposal. hacker is not ma is not gunner is not spy. jesus. hacker has lots of things going against it in interlock and only 2 decent attacks to be used in IL, and now they complain about upgrade attacks too?
the answer is no, hardly anyone uses anything but specials since a special is so much better than a tactic move. every time i fight an MA, even many npcs, its nothing but efk/wdd all day every day. strangely, some hacker npcs like to use grab attacks, kinda cool.
concerning what i said about motivation, i dont protest the unreasonable blitz on hacker cuz i suck and any further nerfing would turn me into a ragdoll, its the other way around. i like to think that i do pretty good most of hte time. but if these guys think a few days of bad luck with this or that class calls for yet more editing, they need to log off and read a book. my IL hacks hit them for up to 500 if im lucky but efk and machinegun fist can hit for 700-900. my resist is good. so *CENSORED*? =D
NoRepro or maybe it was HCFrog has already stated Hacker is not an interlock class. Thats why they get penalized when they do interlock.
Cryshal you can still use regular tactics like ma's and gunmen can. Its called using the self defense style. Its no different than any other style and the buffs are just as good. If your getting hit for 700-900 from machine gun fist combo then your resistance is horrible. Even if efk does that much damage to you its bad. Wooden Dummy drill which has twice the dps of efk and requires a state does less than 1k damage to me. No wonder why you getting killed by ma's.
Rexxhavukk wrote:
LOL
Can someone show me where it says Hackers have to be weak in interlock. CR2 is about balance and strategy..... not about making MA's dominant in PVP, interlock, range or anywhere for that matter.
Cryshal you can still use regular tactics like ma's and gunmen can. Its called using the self defense style. Its no different than any other style and the buffs are just as good. If your getting hit for 700-900 from machine gun fist combo then your resistance is horrible. Even if efk does that much damage to you its bad. Wooden Dummy drill which has twice the dps of efk and requires a state does less than 1k damage to me. No wonder why you getting killed by ma's.
Sure i could use the Self Defence style as a hacker Renesis but its one thing to duel someone and do it and then try to do it in the middle of a pvp battle. You have to kill quick..you cant really peck away at someones health because someone else will be coming soon.... Sound familiar? Not to mention i wouldn't peck away at anything... i would just die.
All i see since the patch is you leading a crusade against hacker. Other trees can link specials back to back. It's not just hacker but you fail to mention them and even say it as if hacker is the only one. Is this missinformation on purpose?? Three Quarters of the time my hacker ends up in interlock i loose, If i don't loose the target was debuffed before interlock started.
I'm curious what special interest group is paying you to wage this war against hacker?
LOOK.... im fed up off people moaning and groaning and moaning and wining and basicly crying about hackers.... I MEAN HAVENT WE BEEN DEGRADGED ENOUGH.... reallly if u cant take a hacker in cr 2.0 im sorry but ur a crap ma... first people moan about hackers being alll mighty and powerful and even when they nerf the hole tree... you still moan i get your point yeah we're pretty strong in intellock... but what are all these level 50 clothes that u been given, where your melee accuracy at, wheres your viral resistances at i mean i think its your own god damm falut if you cant beat a hacker so stop **bleep**ing complaining.
I dont really think hackers are overpowered. Maybe just a tad in interlock (but not very much). Im a gunslinger with a fairly good set up of attributes for one, and i can say that every now and then a hacker has killed me in interlock with ease. Sometimes they'll hit every one of their hacker attacks on me while it may take me 4 or 5 tries just get off one of my specials.
But that's really only on occassion.
Message Edited by timeframe01 on 04-15-2006 09:37 AM
What tree can queue back to back specials without switching styles?
Hanzyl and Gretyl wrote:
Sure i could use the Self Defence style as a hacker Renesis but its one thing to duel someone and do it and then try to do it in the middle of a pvp battle. You have to kill quick..you cant really peck away at someones health because someone else will be coming soon.... Sound familiar? Not to mention i wouldn't peck away at anything... i would just die.
All i see since the patch is you leading a crusade against hacker. Other trees can link specials back to back. It's not just hacker but you fail to mention them and even say it as if hacker is the only one. Is this missinformation on purpose?? Three Quarters of the time my hacker ends up in interlock i loose, If i don't loose the target was debuffed before interlock started.
I'm curious what special interest group is paying you to wage this war against hacker?
renesis, the main answer to that question is, who cares? hackers have moves excluded from interlock. has your MA loadout been similarly nerfed? nope. your idea is moot at best since ALL hacker moves are specials. so in what way can a hacker NOT be using consecutive specials in interlock? life goes on. your personal vendetta with hacker is very strange.
as for my resist, ill say again, its good. the reason why an ma can still hit someone upside the head for 700 dmg is the same reason howitzer can cover a 30meter radius. attributes can result in some serious specialization and thats fine. if someone puts most or all of their eggs in one basket then they certainly better get some juice.
another thing to consider is that the devs have also clearly said that all classes should be able to solo missions. so this basically means all classes should be able to survive in interlock, since most npcs start jumping on you immediately. so it seems to me the more powerful class here is MA. time to swing the nerf bat perhaps?
or am i being unreasonable? =D
Duelist and i imagine most other trees too but i have no exp on them.
My main build is Duelist and the abilities share the same timers. Its not possible to queue them back to back.
Hanzyl and Gretyl wrote:
Duelist and i imagine most other trees too but i have no exp on them.
Ma's will and should be the best interlock class since they have no ranged attacks. They need to do a lot of damage in interlock since they cant do anything outside of it. Duelists are decent in interlock and out of interlock. Rifles are very good out of interlock but suffer in interlock. Hackers? Well they are very good ranged fighters and very good interlock fighters. Do you not see the problem here?
interlock.
Pistol Barrage
Pistol Arial
Dual Pistol Execution
Pistol Arial
ect...
The key is Pistol Arial.
So perhaps load them and try it. There is always something i can click on should i choose.
Pistol Barrage
Pistol Arial
Dual Pistol Execution
Pistol Arial
ect...
The key is Pistol Arial.
So perhaps load them and try it. There is always something i can click on should i choose.
Pistol Aerial has a dps of 16 and has no debuffs or causes no states. My bedlams have a dps of 13 and can cause blinded. My point? Pistol Aerial is useless as a level 50 duelist.
Look at the attacks a ballista can do and compare. Huge difference.
Look at the attacks a ballista can do and compare. Huge difference.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-16-2006 12:06 AM
oh so now that i have pointed out another tree can do it you say that... please try the ability it does more damage than a normal attack. Not to mention damage wasn't your initial point as you said hackers were the only ones that could do it.
Stop complaining.
Stop complaining.
ah, so at least, the pale underbelly is revealed. renesis is basically saying 'i dont like hackers they r mean to me wahhhh' haha. to begin with, get this idea about hackers being 'good' in interlock out of your head. they ARE NOT 'good' in interlock. anyone can get lucky. a level 45 arbalest could possibly kick your *CENSORED* in interlock and that wouldnt mean hacker is overpowered either. sometimes you just get outrolled.
we can all agree on a level heirarchy right? you dont use aerial much cuz of the low dmg and such right? well, hackers dont use barrage1.0 either, cuz its a low level ab. so this usually leaves 2 abs we can use in interlock, cuz there are a few that cant be used in interlock at all. are you satisfied yet? do you want me to give you my widow cap too? perhaps youd like my boots. and my gun? want that too? am i balanced if i use a paintball gun instead? as for MA's using ranged attacks, cr2 now lets you throw a melee attack on someone while not in interlock, apparently. and dont forget, you lazy MA's, theres nothing stopping you from picking up a gun.
renesis, its a good thing youre not a lawyer, cuz youve got no case. hacker has been nerfed TOO much and we all know it and thats why no one uses hacker anymore. except apparently me and 3-4 other ppl, heh.
They r waaay too powerful in IL. A specially because of that hyper deflect doesn't work in IL.
What tree is it you use? I guess we all need to tell the DEVS that that tree should be able to kill everyone all the time without taking any damage.
Message Edited by Rexxhavukk on 04-16-2006 07:41 AM
Message Edited by Rexxhavukk on 04-16-2006 07:44 AM
It's extremely weird. When I'm doing missions (as an MA) I constantly find myself taking out the MA npcs no problem, a few specials and they're done. But hackers are a curve ball. They hammer you while you're outside of IL, and then when you get em there, they seem to hammer me with the same attacks again and again. A minor thing i've noticed, is that the DoT attacks they use are way overpowered, because after they execute an ability, we just kinda stand there for like 5 seconds waiting for the next round, all the while that damned dot sapping my health. and what d'you know, that weird lapse of time causes them to queue up another ability and repeat the process. They should fall like flies, but if anything, the MA npcs seem to take more damage from my specials than hackers do...:smileyindifferent:
"the hackers dont fall as quick as the MAs do when i use my back to back powerless specials >_<"
one explanation is that npcs always had significantly lower health than we do. now, thats not the case, theyre almost the same compared to spies and hackers and only a bit lower compared to gunners and ma's. and yet with the specialisation you can get when you tailor your stats to a certain tree you can still do kickass dmg and beat an npc with a few MA specials, just as you say. and yet MA, of all things, is the ultimate vanilla npc. anyone can hit them upside the head for real dmg. all npcs seem a bit more tailored now, especially the hackers. so in other words, if your game needs polish, it doesnt mean the hackers need to get nerfed yet again, it just means, you lost the battle. now, a hacker npc seems to more readily use code infect2 and destroy resolve and barrage4 and so on.. they buff and heal each other and generally carry on like theres some AI here, *CENSORED* hax!#$
you guys are not using your brains before you speak. typical males.
i also use an interlock class, now its you guys' turn to play hacker for a while. typing /loadlo hax0r, running 1 assassin mish and 1 courier mish, then saying "omgwtfbbq that wuz so fast i totally pwn'd them wif muh overpowered upgrade attacks which actually lets me hit something" isnt good enuf.
try ballista for a while and im sure youll sing a different tune the first few times you get stomped in interlock in like 15 seconds from those consecutive state specials.
but if this is hard for you to wrap your minds around, then ok i lied. i admit it. hacker is ridiculously all-powerful and us hackers have kept it a secret, photoshop'ing our screenshots and sabotaging our stats before every pvp duel. i can hit for 7000 dmg with barrage4 and this is why im starting my own org soon. agent grey wants to marry me and neo talks to me in my dreams. he says things like "whoa" and "**bleep**, you rule" and such.
cryshal wrote:
you guys are not using your brains before you speak. typical males.
Gender plays a role in this where?
Ill spell it out for all of you.
Ballista Abilities that can be used anytime:
Logic Blast 1.0 - DPS 11
UI Lag 1.0 - Debuff
Overload 1.0 - Debuffs
Logic Barrage 2.0 - DPS 17
Logic Barrage 3.0 - DPS 40
Logic Blast 2.0 - DPS 31
Stun 1.0 - Stun 7 secs
Logic Barrage 4.0 - DPS 63
Logic Blast 3.0 - DPS 51
Stun 2.0 - 4mm range Stun 5 secs
Ballista Abilities Outside combat only:
Slow - Debuff
Processor Lag 1.0 - 30 viral dmg over 30 secs
Logic Cannon 1.0 - DPS 18
Logic Cannon 2.0 - DPS 29
Lets look at duelist now.
Duelist Abilities that can be used anytime:
Pistol Evasive - 5 DPS
Pistol Barrage - 18 DPS
Dual Pistol Execution - 45 DPS
Covering Fire - 17 DPS
Disarming Shot - DPS 11
Duelist Abilities used in only close combat:
Pistol Aerial - 16 DPS
Duelist Abilities that require states:
Pistol Slide - 67 DPS
Pistol Whip - 109 DPS
Dual Pistol Point Blank - 98 DPS
Duelist Abilities that can only be used outside combat:
Dual Pistol Dash - 13 DPS
Look at all the restrictions a Duelist has in interlock. Its the same with any non-hacker interlock class.
Lets crunch some numbers now:
-Total DPS of ballista abilities that can be used in interlock without requiring states is 213 DPS.
-Total DPS of Duelist abilities that can be used in interlock without requiring states is 112 DPS.
Now duelist has some high dmg abilities that require states but in order to use them we need to use regular attacks like speed, power and grab to get our opponent dazed, staggered or off-balance. This is fine however Ballista has no restrictions.
Ballistas dont have this limitation so they never have to use regular attacks like speed, power and grab in interlock. Plus they can queue back to back so there would be no advantage getting their opponent dazed, staggered or off-balance especially since no attacks require them.
Ballistas being a ranged class have less restrictions in interlock than any other class in this game and their damage output is higher with the least effort (no state requirements) not to mention the available debuffs they can use.
Lets get your opinions on this. What am I missing?
Ballista Abilities that can be used anytime:
Logic Blast 1.0 - DPS 11
UI Lag 1.0 - Debuff
Overload 1.0 - Debuffs
Logic Barrage 2.0 - DPS 17
Logic Barrage 3.0 - DPS 40
Logic Blast 2.0 - DPS 31
Stun 1.0 - Stun 7 secs
Logic Barrage 4.0 - DPS 63
Logic Blast 3.0 - DPS 51
Stun 2.0 - 4mm range Stun 5 secs
Ballista Abilities Outside combat only:
Slow - Debuff
Processor Lag 1.0 - 30 viral dmg over 30 secs
Logic Cannon 1.0 - DPS 18
Logic Cannon 2.0 - DPS 29
Lets look at duelist now.
Duelist Abilities that can be used anytime:
Pistol Evasive - 5 DPS
Pistol Barrage - 18 DPS
Dual Pistol Execution - 45 DPS
Covering Fire - 17 DPS
Disarming Shot - DPS 11
Duelist Abilities used in only close combat:
Pistol Aerial - 16 DPS
Duelist Abilities that require states:
Pistol Slide - 67 DPS
Pistol Whip - 109 DPS
Dual Pistol Point Blank - 98 DPS
Duelist Abilities that can only be used outside combat:
Dual Pistol Dash - 13 DPS
Look at all the restrictions a Duelist has in interlock. Its the same with any non-hacker interlock class.
Lets crunch some numbers now:
-Total DPS of ballista abilities that can be used in interlock without requiring states is 213 DPS.
-Total DPS of Duelist abilities that can be used in interlock without requiring states is 112 DPS.
Now duelist has some high dmg abilities that require states but in order to use them we need to use regular attacks like speed, power and grab to get our opponent dazed, staggered or off-balance. This is fine however Ballista has no restrictions.
Ballistas dont have this limitation so they never have to use regular attacks like speed, power and grab in interlock. Plus they can queue back to back so there would be no advantage getting their opponent dazed, staggered or off-balance especially since no attacks require them.
Ballistas being a ranged class have less restrictions in interlock than any other class in this game and their damage output is higher with the least effort (no state requirements) not to mention the available debuffs they can use.
Lets get your opinions on this. What am I missing?
I'm not saying Hackers beat me. I'm usually overcome by a group of free-firing smg-weilding npcs, not hackers. But shouldn't the "Mage" class lose to a "Warrior" class in a fist fight? Just my opinion.
Message Edited by Leveticus on 04-16-2006 06:07 PM
Well, adding the DPS together of a tree proves absolutely nothing. It's just adding numbers together to make it look like you have data supporting a point, when there is none.
As for specials - well that makes hackers also run out of IS very quickly, which leaves us completely unable to attack, as melee attacks do 1 damage. A MA is able to do damage without using IS. Wearing IS regen clothing hurts hackers' resistance, which makes it easier to kill us. Also, you make it sound like it's SO horrible to get states. I shoot a level 47 as a level 6 - hit him every other time, and half the time I hit, he's dazed. It's remarkably easy to get states, so I don't know what you're complaining about.
As for specials - well that makes hackers also run out of IS very quickly, which leaves us completely unable to attack, as melee attacks do 1 damage. A MA is able to do damage without using IS. Wearing IS regen clothing hurts hackers' resistance, which makes it easier to kill us. Also, you make it sound like it's SO horrible to get states. I shoot a level 47 as a level 6 - hit him every other time, and half the time I hit, he's dazed. It's remarkably easy to get states, so I don't know what you're complaining about.
Every round in interlock is 4 seconds so comparing the dps numbers is accurate. My point is very simple ballistas can inflict more damage in interlock faster and with less effort than other trees.
Yes npcs are easy to get a state on but in duels or pvp they arent easy to get.
Yes npcs are easy to get a state on but in duels or pvp they arent easy to get.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-16-2006 06:51 PM
We can look at averages too:
-Average DPS of Ballista abilities that dont require a state in interlock is 35.5
-Average DPS of Duelist abilities that dont require a state in interlock is 19.2
-Average DPS of Ballista abilities that dont require a state in interlock is 35.5
-Average DPS of Duelist abilities that dont require a state in interlock is 19.2
as usual, this thread delivers. what exactly it delivers tho, is questionable at best.
to begin with, your entire method of presenting your argument, in the real world (where i live), is called "sophistry" and isnt exactly airtight.
there are 2 probs with the dps comparison. if you think these figures are iron clad and absolutely accurate and correct, youre smoking asshairs. that skews your comparison from the start and invalidates it. secondly, as someone else already said, the logic behind just adding up numbers which are only baseline figures to arrive at this hear-me-roar sum total is.. faulty to say the least. youre comparing apples and oranges. hacker is not gunner. youre disturbed that there are differences?
as for your list of interlock moves, the two moves that ballista can use in interlock which approaches 1k dmg, arent able to be used in interlock at all. as for the rest, they are of no consequence. no one uses low level blast or barrage attacks, you weirdo.. youre doing whats called padding the bottom line. so for ballista at least, this leaves you with a hacker, who has crappy defense and melee attacks that ALWAYS do 1 dmg and virtually never land, and 2 attacks actually of use in interlock.. blast3 and barrage4. meanwhile, you have an entire fruit salad at your disposal, as a gunner, and you should. why? cuz gunner is an interlock class.
but ok ok.. you can have ALL my guns. ill stop shooting ppl too. and if thats STILL not enuf perhaps ill give you my favorite pants. no matter how you slice it, gunner and ma exceed hacker in interlock for various reasons firmly grounded in fact and logic and owing nothing to personal opinion (or personal vendettas). if you get beat badly by a hacker, or beat often, it means you just friggin suck. i wish there was a nicer way to say it. if youre on recursion (probly not, since vector players cry about hacker the most) ill be happy to duel with you and such to work on your defense. id probly learn something too, maybe we can develop something cool. til then, if youre looking for something truly overpowered to focus on as you rage against the matrix machine, i know of a certain nerf bat that could use your attention.
What have I started? Look, shall I just get Longowner on here (the guy who inadvertantly started this by consistently whupping my *CENSORED*) and see what he has to say? This guy totally destroys everything that even blinks ugly at him, and guess what? He's a Hacker. He admits that the amount of damage done by one person in such a short space of time is utterly ridiculous. Cryshal, you are obviously a very intelligent person, so I appreciate your arguments, but let's try to keep the sarcasm down to a dull roar. I'm not some pre-teen, I'm a 30-something adult who is trying to figure out the solution to a problem, nothing more than that. I appreciate you're fighting your corner, and I was right in saying this thread was going to get flamed, but I still believe I have a valid point.
Does the DPS value of a gun stack with the DPS value of an ability? I ask cause my Pistol Arial does a decent chunk of damage. It's in the 250 area i believe so how is that possible on a DPS 16 ability? I'm at work now so i can't do any tests so if someone could confirm. Also some of those duelist abilities cause effects like Stun and such.
Hackers had there rolls nerfed in interlock. T or F?
Hackers rely on IS to attack in an effective manner at all. T or F?
I have a character on Recursion and Vector so i'll get together with anyone who wants to do some testing and document what happens in a controlled manner. Just send me a PM if your interested.
Hanzyl and Gretyl wrote:Does the DPS value of a gun stack with the DPS value of an ability? I ask cause my Pistol Arial does a decent chunk of damage. It's in the 250 area i believe so how is that possible on a DPS 16 ability?
Thats a valid point. I dont know what the answer is so maybe the true dps is at least +10-15 higher than what ive stated accounting for the weapon.
I'm at work now so i can't do any tests so if someone could confirm. Also some of those duelist abilities cause effects like Stun and such.
Several of them cause powerless
Hackers had there rolls nerfed in interlock. T or F?
True but we dont know how much exactly
Hackers rely on IS to attack in an effective manner at all. T or F?
True but so does every build for that matter
I have a character on Recursion and Vector so i'll get together with anyone who wants to do some testing and document what happens in a controlled manner. Just send me a PM if your interested.
I have a level 38 on Recursion. Level 50 and 22 on vector. What are your playtimes? Im mostly on 6-11pm eastern
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-17-2006 11:01 AM