Martial Arts lameness - MXO Forum Archive

#35500000598 04/11/2006 08:32:19 Martial Arts lameness

The lameness of the martial arts setup in this game is incredible! Ok yes its all very cool that you can do these stunts and i think the fighting rules! But when your against a player of the same level who uses a different technique it is very biased. People who use Kung-fu are unstoppable! a single level 27 move a have me down to half health (piston kicks) where as when i use karate my highest D.P.S is 134 and that's at level 46 I think this is incredibly lame! I don't see how just because perhaps neo used this technique that it should be the ultimate set of moves!

I honestly think you should reset all the martial arts to be even, or at least close to even, so someone who uses Aikido can actually have fun when dueling against a kung-fu master since last time I saw a 2 level 50s vs each other (one being kung-fu one being aikido) the aikido master landed about 2 hits then was dead.

I also kinda find this insulting in real life in some ways since no matter what your technique you can win a duel, i myself am a Black Belt in Aikido and i find the portrayal of it in this game pathetic, it being high on defense but not being able to land any hits is pointless!

#35500000599 04/11/2006 08:39:34 Re: Martial Arts lameness

periods and commas are your friend, sir.

and just so you know. Someone who knows how to use the Aikido tree correctly in this game can beat other MA classes, I've done it and have had it done to me...

Message Edited by Sephiroth+X on 04-11-200609:40 AM

#35500000602 04/11/2006 10:09:48 Re: Martial Arts lameness

EVery should stop biat(hin about Kung fu..

#35500000607 04/11/2006 13:41:33 Re: Martial Arts lameness

I agree that in the right hands Aikido can win against other MAs, however I have some numbers that shine some interesting light on things.

Just to get an idea of potentiial DPS for each of the soldier branches I added the DPS for all the specail moves together and here is what i got.

Aikido = 339

Karate = 357

KungFu = 495

Duelist = 358

SMG specialist = 472

Expert Rifleman = 235

Now understand that this isn't abosultely accurate, just a generalization of potential DPS.

I see 3 things wrong here, ER seems pretty weak, SMGs are a bit high, and KungFu is outrageous. In comparrison to the other trees it should be obvious that KungFu and SMGs are are doing alot more DMG than the others. This holds true to my experience in game as well.

-Jilted

#35500000608 04/11/2006 14:48:51 Re: Martial Arts lameness

You cant add up the dps numbers and get accurate damage stats. Your not accounting for the time it takes to use an attack. In interlock its 4 seconds but out of interlock it depends entirely on the ability. A perfect example is devastation field which only shows 1 DPS but takes 10 secs to cast. Dev field can do a lot of damage. Thats why rifleman looks underpowered but it actually does more damage than the other gun trees it just takes longer to cast each attack so the dps numbers are lower.

Theres a really good post explaining all this somewhere giving examples. I think NoRepro posted it if you want to look for it.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-11-200606:51 PM

#35500000612 04/11/2006 15:46:26 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Jilted_1 wrote:
Now understand that this isn't abosultely accurate, just a generalization of potential DPS.

I guess you missed that line there huh? and I'm the procces of making more accuracte calculations based one things like IS cost, execute timer, states required, and buff/debuffs caused. The formula is proving a bit of a challenge but coming along slowly.

But given that the MA trees are 99% interlock only abilities, hence 4 second execute timers, the generalization is not as skewed as the Gunmen trees.

-Jilted

Message Edited by Jilted_1 on 04-11-200604:53 PM

#35500000615 04/11/2006 16:29:53 Re: Martial Arts lameness

I didnt miss that line at all but you also said:

I see 3 things wrong here, ER seems pretty weak, SMGs are a bit high, and KungFu is outrageous. In comparrison to the other trees it should be obvious that KungFu and SMGs are are doing alot more DMG than the others. This holds true to my experience in game as well.

My point is those numbers are useless without the execute timer which you left out of your original post. Without mentioning the timers someone who doesnt know the system would look at those numbers and see something seriously wrong. Your comments appeared to me that you didnt know about the timers so thats why I posted.

#35500000630 04/13/2006 09:29:31 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Jilted_1 wrote:

I agree that in the right hands Aikido can win against other MAs, however I have some numbers that shine some interesting light on things.

Just to get an idea of potentiial DPS for each of the soldier branches I added the DPS for all the specail moves together and here is what i got.

Aikido = 339

Karate = 357

KungFu = 495

Duelist = 358

SMG specialist = 472

Expert Rifleman = 235

Now understand that this isn't abosultely accurate, just a generalization of potential DPS.

I see 3 things wrong here, ER seems pretty weak, SMGs are a bit high, and KungFu is outrageous. In comparrison to the other trees it should be obvious that KungFu and SMGs are are doing alot more DMG than the others. This holds true to my experience in game as well.

-Jilted

RIfles are a mainly non interlock class! Three shot burst does really nasty damage both in and out plus butt smash is a way of withdrawing with a much higher success rate. PLus rifles have sniper.

#35500000707 04/17/2006 15:24:40 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Jilted_1 wrote:
I agree that in the right hands Aikido can win against other MAs, however I have some numbers that shine some interesting light on things.
Just to get an idea of potentiial DPS for each of the soldier branches I added the DPS for all the specail moves together and here is what i got.
Aikido = 339
Karate = 357
KungFu = 495
Duelist = 358
SMG specialist = 472
Expert Rifleman = 235
Now understand that this isn't abosultely accurate, just a generalization of potential DPS.
I see 3 things wrong here, ER seems pretty weak, SMGs are a bit high, and KungFu is outrageous. In comparrison to the other trees it should be obvious that KungFu and SMGs are are doing alot more DMG than the others. This holds true to my experience in game as well.
-Jilted

That's completely inacurate way to look at Kung Fu. KF is based on versitility and being able to adapt to any situation, hence the term (in my guild) of Kung Fu Roulette. Any state applied to you a KF (or properly made Hybrid MA) can capitalize on.

If you were really going to try and compare effective DPSs you'd subtract Piston and Triple Front Kicks' DPS values, subtracting 199 points, or since:

Karate has Machinegun Kick for Dazed.
Aikido has only Off-Balance reqs. but it has those nice self-buffs.

Just subtract a 100, which puts them all in very similar situations (and for Riflemen, Deadly Shot doesn't require a state so that's a big boost in effective DPS).

#35500001025 05/20/2006 03:52:45 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Martial Arts are now really unbalanced, before, je difference was acceptable, but, now, that really weard!

they don't like MA, especialy Karate Master, look my sign !!

Same caractere, same stats & same equipement, these are the basic bonus for the different MA (yes, the karaté have is defenseless!! (the self defense give better defense bonus than karaté)

Need a CR 3 i guess?

After the Combat Reduct 2.0 , the Combat Reduct 3.0?

Message Edited by Antcrist on 05.20.2006 01:56 PM

#35500001027 05/20/2006 05:10:21 Re: Martial Arts lameness

most people know that smg and kung fu is stronger then the rest, and when you fight one you hope he has a bad day and dont hits to much.

Its like the hacker in the previous combat system, everyone knows its overpowerd but most people dont wanne know becuase they like being uber.

The grow of smg and kung fu guys has grown alot, i hardly see any karate or aikido masters.

I do see duelists for the high defense,and they combo with smg for the hihg dam output,just full auto redux is enough to take a halfbar of hp away.

#35500001030 05/22/2006 23:33:17 Re: Martial Arts lameness

gayal wrote:

most people know that smg and kung fu is stronger then the rest, and when you fight one you hope he has a bad day and dont hits to much.

Its like the hacker in the previous combat system, everyone knows its overpowerd but most people dont wanne know becuase they like being uber.

The grow of smg and kung fu guys has grown alot, i hardly see any karate or aikido masters.

I do see duelists for the high defense,and they combo with smg for the hihg dam output,just full auto redux is enough to take a halfbar of hp away.

to me no tree is too over powered each has the ups and downs and i thought for a long time that proxy coder was lame till i dueled with RockyB and its very good as well stick toa tree master it then move to the next one so far it seems this game is way more balanced than before and as for everyone being SMG/Kungfu its because(to me) they arent that hard to use and takes little time to master these

#35500001034 05/23/2006 05:39:24 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Yeh i agree with marsnova, the game is pretty well balanced right now. And i think the reason for most people being SMG and kung fu is due to the fact that this is the MATRIX online and those are the most used styles in the actual movies, as I recall i dont remember any hacks or daemons/proxies fighting in the movies SMILEY

Message Edited by Spartan1818 on 05.23.2006 09:40 AM

#35500001051 05/25/2006 13:22:49 Re: Martial Arts lameness

I have a bronze medal for a little bit of Tae Kwon Do that I know. I also know a bit of Aikido. And a bit of Karate. And a bit of wrestling. Oh... and if you put me on skates look out... I'll pull the jersey over your head and pummel you into the penalty box. hehe. I know what real fighting looks like. Been in a few.

Fighting in MxO, MA or not, has NOTHING to do with how fights go in the real. It's movie fighting. The sooner people come to that realization the better.

And the Aikido skill set in MxO is very effective if you know how to use it. The trick is learning how to use it.

#35500001055 05/25/2006 14:20:25 Re: Martial Arts lameness

I agree with the balance.

#35500001399 06/29/2006 22:25 Re: Martial Arts lameness

Aikido is definately one of the hardest trees to use correctly, but when you do.... POW!

Actually the real benefit for Aikido is to be a tank. You have very high resistance and defence as Aikido and tend to fight using Grab attacks. The combined effect is that you become very hard to hit and absorb a lot of damage when you are hit. I can barely remember the last time a viral attack hit me, or the last time I was killed with bullets for that matter. This makes Aikido very handy in a general mele pvp type situation where there tends to be a lot of free-fire going on.

Kung-fu on the otherhand does more damage and hits more often... but is very vulnerable to zerg and ranged, due to low defences.

Karate is in the happy midground, but makes up for it's deficiencies primarily by fighting with power attacks (most of the specials require staggered) and so does more damage with no drop in defence levels.

Aikido can also use power attacks at the loss of getting off-balance to use most specials

Tip of the day: if you attack using speed-attack you will increase your chance of a hit (and hence a state)

During the speed-attack, switch to power or grab (depending on the desired state). If a state is rewarded it will be according to the attack-type you switched to. (of course attacking with speed drops your damage and defence) The next attack will be in the style you switched to, so this can only be done every second round. Also this does not ensure a state is rewarded, the states are still rewarded according to in-game random odds.

Being able to do this is essential as grab has a rather low accuracy

phiAU - The Kings of Never - noblesse oblige

#36300055239 09/22/2006 02:41 Re: Martial Arts lameness

[

phi wrote:

Being able to do this is essential as grab has a rather low accuracy

Completey incorrect.

Grab has +5% acc.

Power has -15% acc (somwthing like that)

Speed has +15% acc

#36300055242 09/22/2006 02:45 Re: Martial Arts lameness

phi wrote:

Being able to do this is essential as grab has a rather low accuracy relative to speed

Fixed

#36300055477 09/22/2006 09:46 Re: Martial Arts lameness

5hauntaylor88 wrote:

phi wrote:

Being able to do this is essential as grab has a rather low accuracy relative to speed, but considerabley better accuracy than power.

Fixed better