Upgrade Attacks Overpowered - MXO Forum Archive

#35300000984 03/25/2006 00:45:55 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

>revolt_ wrote:
Well, I found myself quite effective at range as a hacker...

>revolt_

I must agree now :smileywink: I thought as well that I wanna miss the Upgrade Attacks, but I tested howitzer on Creston Hideout mobs yesterday (team consists of 1 utility master and me as a hacker) and had no problems till the mid of the 2nd floor (8 lvl 51 ... no way :smileytongue: ). I never used Upgrade Attacks and 2 of 3 attacks hit from the range and 1 of 2 attacks hit in IL.
For PvP I must say it depends on your oponents loadout (as always :smileywink: ), but I had no probs except 1 Aikido GM. His viral defense was amazing and I couldn't hit him with an accuracy of 242 :smileysurprised: .

peace,
CJ

#35300000985 03/25/2006 08:18:53 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Yeah, the 50% to 66% chance of success seems to be balanced, though I still think 20 seconds of duration it's a short time, being that the reuse timer is almost 5 times longer. Maybe 30 seconds are better.
I found out that fighting NPC is not a problem, even with 3 chevron mobs, though it's viral deflection drops the accuracy below 50%. Fortunately, the status conditions were shortened in time too. I still have to test it on PvP. Combat looks more interesting now.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300000986 03/25/2006 10:02:26 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Viral Accuracy of 242? Tell me one other class than can come anywhere near that number in offense or defense. I have no idea how an Akido GM can get that much viral defense. He must have been buffed to hell. I havent broken 165 with duelist.

CrazyJun wrote:
I must agree now :smileywink: I thought as well that I wanna miss the Upgrade Attacks, but I tested howitzer on Creston Hideout mobs yesterday (team consists of 1 utility master and me as a hacker) and had no problems till the mid of the 2nd floor (8 lvl 51 ... no way :smileytongue: ). I never used Upgrade Attacks and 2 of 3 attacks hit from the range and 1 of 2 attacks hit in IL.
For PvP I must say it depends on your oponents loadout (as always :smileywink: ), but I had no probs except 1 Aikido GM. His viral defense was amazing and I couldn't hit him with an accuracy of 242 :smileysurprised: .

peace,
CJ

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 03-25-200601:06 PM

#35300000987 03/25/2006 10:43:47 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

I don't know if he was buffed, but I couldn't hack him. :smileysad: The 242 seems to be alot, but that's only for 20secs. Even if I can downgrade your viral defense in this time, you have 130 left. That is still more compared to my normal viral accuracy. :smileywink:

And another class that can get acc like that .... rifleman /sniper.

peace,
CJ

Message Edited by CrazyJun on 03-25-200610:45 AM

#35300001006 03/26/2006 09:45:52 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

more nerfing of the hacker. i wish i had the ear of the devs like these ppl seem to. hackers arent 'supposed' to rule in interlock, fair enough. but why are we being nerfed for ranged/free fire also? this makes no sense. if a hacker is attacking an npc or player, outside of interlock, they should have a small but definite advantage, its that simple. its funny how the MA's certainly hit me more than 50% of the time.. =P

#35300001009 03/26/2006 11:16:21 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

As I said, hackers are NOT nerfed outside of interlock. They still hit A LOT.

I loaded it. I tested it. I felt for my victims.

>revolt_

#35300001026 03/27/2006 09:23:42 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

How much is a lot revolt? I'm not arguing against your claims, but trying to have another source of information besides my own tests.

So far, I have the following numbers, based on my tests:

(NOTE: All the NPC information was obtained running missions on tiny/hard setting)

Outside Interlock:

- Orange 1 chevron: Efficiency around 80%
- Orange 2 chevron: Efficiency around 65%
- Orange 3 chevron: Efficiency around 50%

At Interlock
- Orange 1 chevron: Efficiency around 70%
- Orange 2 chevron: Efficiency around 55%
- Orange 3 chevron: Efficiency around 45%

I used Upgrade Attacks whenever possible.

As you can see, my tests show that hacker is no longer the elite class for fighting. Moreover, running into battle to engage in interlock with more than 3 mobs was a sure kill for my RSI 1 of 2 times, as my Nemesis was depleting my IS.

I would say that if the class still shows signs of being overpowered, it's better to review and balance the issues that produce such overpower. I admit that maybe the 20 seconds timer could be the right value, even if I fell it's too short to be really effective.

Maybe I'm not a good fighter and, of course, my views are biased with my current mind set regarding hackers. Nevertheless, I fell that hackers are more on the line and that are more closer at balance than ever.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001027 03/27/2006 09:36:42 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Hm, given that your out of interlock success rate is higher than your in interlock success rate I'd say those percentages seem to be high enough to be a danger out of interlock. You can still throw barrage after blast after barrage after one target. If he comes too close you hyperjump, come back, and rinse repeat the barrage/blast nuking. This is how it should be in my opinion.

>revolt_

#35300001028 03/27/2006 09:46:47 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

I agree. Hacker must fight at distance to be effective. I still need to test it at PvP, though I hope the numbers won't change too much from the 3 chevron references. After all, a human it's better than the MxO AI, isn't it? SMILEY

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001032 03/27/2006 10:26:51 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Npc balance and pvp balance are 2 different things. I still think the at interlock numbers are too high. Most are only a 10% difference which is basically nothing. If a fight takes 10 hits outside of interlock it only takes you 11 in interlock. Hackers should not be that powerful in interlock since they are a range fighting class.

Outside Interlock:

- Orange 1 chevron: Efficiency around 80%
- Orange 2 chevron: Efficiency around 65%
- Orange 3 chevron: Efficiency around 50%

At Interlock
- Orange 1 chevron: Efficiency around 70%
- Orange 2 chevron: Efficiency around 55%
- Orange 3 chevron: Efficiency around 45%

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001034 03/27/2006 11:10:16 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Renesis13B wrote:
Npc balance and pvp balance are 2 different things. I still think the at interlock numbers are too high. Most are only a 10% difference which is basically nothing. If a fight takes 10 hits outside of interlock it only takes you 11 in interlock. Hackers should not be that powerful in interlock since they are a range fighting class.

Renesis, I know the difference. I said I still need to test it at PvP, and frankly I expect a drop in accuracy, because NPC manage average values on their stats, while a player does his/her best to excel strengths and overcome weaknesses.

However, though I agree with you that Hacker must be a ranged fighting class, I don't believe in them to be a useless class at interlock. I mean, hacker should have a chance in survive interlock, though it clearly must be a very hard task to achieve.

The problem I see, is that the way the combat models are handled, modifying an ability like Upgrade Attacks affects both sides, i.e. Ranged and Interlock, effectively nerfing the class, but not bringing a way to overcome the created unbalance.

Look at what happened to the ability that started this thread. revolt found out that duration and reuse timers were a way to exploit it. The change was done to correct it. Even if I fell it was a harsh change, the change was needed.

Therefore, we have to look for those unbalances and suggest a better way to manage the overpower or underpower they might produce.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001035 03/27/2006 11:23:25 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

#35300001036 03/27/2006 12:25:19 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Im not sure how that would solve the problem.

LiquidZ wrote:
I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

TekMon,
I understand what your saying completely. All of my testing the past couple of weeks have been fighting hackers and trying to find an effective way to defend it in pvp. If youve used hacker while flagged then ive probably taken a coule of pop shots at you so you would attack me. What I know is viral defense doesnt work in interlock. Its your roll against the other guys roll (Zero sum) and right now hackers simply roll to high. Theres a reason why hackers have a penalty in interlock and its because they dont belong there.

What I would like to see the accuracy penalty in interlock increase. Some suggested playing with the ability timers during interlock and that might be another solution. Most trees cant use specials back to back in interlock but hackers can. I just want to make it clear something needs to be done with hackers in interlock. The ranged attacks arent an issue for me just interlock.

#35300001037 03/27/2006 13:12:49 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

..right. an issue for him.

is there anything else we can do for you, good sir?

#35300001039 03/27/2006 13:16:49 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

What would solve the 'issue' of hackers in interlock would be to activate their re-use timers when they activate a special in interlock. Every other interlock class has the same re-use timer penalty, so why not hackers?

>revolt_

#35300001040 03/27/2006 13:35:28 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Im trying to make the game better and balanced. Im not trying to be selfish and destroy the game for you so I look better. Everything ive posted is accurate. My agenda is to make this game better not make my chosen class the most powerful because im too lazy to switch. Theres a difference.

Cryshal wrote:
..right. an issue for him.
is there anything else we can do for you, good sir?

#35300001041 03/27/2006 13:52:33 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

How can be this applied without doing hacker a dummy class at interlock? So far, many of the MA special abilities require states to be used. Still, fighting classes have inherent bonuses for melee combat, that make them the standing classes for fighting.
This is not true with hacker. Every ability it's treated as special. If there are not status requirements, it's because the abilities create them with a small chance to succeed to overcome the need to use a melee action, compared against MA classes.
Now. What are you talking about the reuse penalty? True, a hacker pulls one special after other in succession, but there are reuse timers applied. Please, elaborate on this.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001042 03/27/2006 14:32:58 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

MA's and Gun classes cant use specials back to back. They have to wait at least one round in between attacks while the timers expire. Hackers in interlock dont have this restriction which allows them to do more damage in less time than other trees.
Even if we have hybrid builds switching them during interlock still gives us a 1 round penalty which defeats the purpose.

#35300001043 03/27/2006 15:07:15 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

So the problem persists, because hacker is all special moves. The only and reasonable alternative might be the recreation of the hacker abilities, in such form, that there could be non-special abilities, better suited for IL.

As it is, it looks like we're stuck. I'm not able to see a change on hacker, with the combat model in use, that allows a clearly distinction between melee and range attacks.

Being the current state of things, maybe we should propose a new set of abilities for the tree, besides looking for any potential exploit or clear unbalance.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001044 03/27/2006 15:59:00 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Nah, they just have to activate all the re-use timers when a hack is being used by a hacker in interlock. The same as with Kung Fu martial artists and their special abilities. Those too can't hammer special after special against their opponent, or can they?

>revolt_

#35300001046 03/27/2006 16:10:23 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Another option we have available is that we can change which abilities can be used in interlock. Maybe there are just too many usable in IL at the moment.

I imagine that this will most likely be one of the first balance issues addressed post - CR2. Options so far:

1. Apply further accuracy penalties to hacker abilities used in interlock

2. Review the family timers for hacker abilities (although preventing back-to-back IL usage would also prevent back-to-back out-of-IL usage as well, with the current system, and a rework of the system would be so far down the road as to prevent this from being a timely balance)

3. Reduce the number of viral attacks usable in IL (maybe combined with #2 so the ones that remain all share a common timer)

This is all pending more feedback as well... as more players get better at the system I would expect to hear more feedback on exactly how balanced it feels right now.

#35300001053 03/27/2006 18:11:56 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Thanks for the response HCFrog. I wish you could squeeze an update in before it goes live but I know time is very short right now.

Theres some good feedback here about the issues with timers etc starting at around page 5-6.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 03-27-200609:20 PM

#35300001055 03/27/2006 19:13:01 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Oh, I see now the difficulties behind the family timers.

>revolt_

#35300001056 03/27/2006 23:43:30 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

You have some good ideas HCFrog, as you said we are going to see the live feedback.

But i love the idea of an abilities restriction in IL. But i would prefer it for the downgrades and upgrades only, It could seems logical that a hacker loose his accuracy in IL.

Keep the good job, can't wait for this afternoon (Europe)

#35300001105 03/29/2006 09:32:30 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Frog, From my point of view, mix of points 2 and 3 is a good compromise to balance hacker at interlock and ranged.

First, the tree should be reworked to have offensive abilities clearly differenced. Something like what was done with Logic Cannon, now an ability used only outside IL. From there, a review at the timers will help to trim the overall effect.

Otherwise, as I said I don't foresee a way for a fair balance, because any change on DPS, activation and reuse timers, will shift the class one side or the other.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001107 03/29/2006 10:32:10 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Post removed.

If you don't have something constructive to add to a thread, the best course of action is not to post.

Message Edited by TheJurymen on 03-29-2006 01:55 PM

#35300001113 03/29/2006 12:20:28 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

hahahahaha

it was constructive, just not necessarily sympathetic to the apparently prevailing views of either the devs or this forums moderators, should those be seperate entities.

i think i and others (lots of others) have made ourselves quite clear that some of the changes to the hacker tree are.. less than palatable.

bah typical men, swinging their penises around. log in and leave your chat log on then grep the file later for things like "viral" and "hack" and 90% of it, all 2 megabytes of it, will be ppl complaining about the changes to the UI. SOME of these MA ppl also use hacker too =D

pls pardon me, if i rubbed anyone the wrong way. i like to think we're all here for the betterment of the game. i know that the devs are reasonable ppl cuz they worked up ideas such as the ab vendor trade-in.. an excellent initiative, one which i might use too, to recoup some info and get things sorted. all i ever want to say is that cr2 is great, i never suggested otherwise.. just that some of these nips and tucks have been too severe.

pay no mind to the MA's that duel 2 hackers and lose, or just barely win both or win one but lose the other fight BAD in a landslide, then immediately come running to the forum to cry about it.

listen to us hackers, who pound it out, day by day, on missions with ppl half our level to help them build some info, or on farming runs so we can make the -cough- new abs we need, or on construct/hideout raids in the hopes of looting something cool =)

#35300001116 03/29/2006 14:25:33 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Hackers deserve no sympathy, it was the easiest tree to level up with.

#35300001118 03/29/2006 14:55:35 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Please, krytical, we're trying to address the balance problems amongst the classes, not bringing up personal dislikes for this or that ability tree.

I went like 95% of my way to the 50's using Proxy Master, because I chose coder as my main tree. I went hacker later, as I found it to be the best for quick farming and to bring out support in the PvP battles my faction mates engaged. When Pandora's arrived, I went MA Kung-Fu, because the NPC were anti-hacker with a vengeance.

Now, my defense of the hacker class comes from my vision that nerfing the class it's not a solution, but a problem by itself. Do you think that the class is still overpowered? Good! Bring out the facts, numbers and anything else that show that such thing it's happening at the live servers.

Being that with a viral attack, against another player of my same level, I can't push over 500 points and that I don't have the same HP bonus the MA enjoy. I could say that I feel MA overpowered at IL now. A MA Karate Grand Master made over 700 points of damage, even with my resistance near the cap. Nevertheless, I think it was right and deserved for allowing the other player to break my defenses.

Every class must have the same opportunities to success. Every class must have their weakness and strengths balanced, because not everybody it's at PvP all the time. Hackers are no longer the overpowered class they were, though they still might be unbalanced under certain conditions. Please, don't cry nerf. It's better to advocate for balance.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001121 03/29/2006 15:37:44 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

In my opinion hacker is fairly balanced right now. I definately don't think it needs to be taken down even more.

I agree it should not be the ownage in IL, this is obvious.

However out of IL it should be doing very well.

( and can someone confirm that the Whitfield Mark II's don't have viral accuracy buffs on them... I don't remember seeing it, and I know it was missing on EP a while ago.)

#35300001122 03/29/2006 15:48:14 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Renesis13B wrote:
Im not sure how that would solve the problem.
LiquidZ wrote:
I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

Actually my logic here is that with the accuracy more on the launcher, people will rely on using "Upgrade Attacks" less. Hence the amount it boosts and be dropped.

Alot of the time to hack someone in pvp you MUST use upgrade attacks otherwise your hack will go through very rarely. The exception is when people don't bother to activate or use viral resist or defense buffs. Then it all seems to work fine.

#35300001125 03/29/2006 16:11:29 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

LiquidZ wrote:
( and can someone confirm that the Whitfield Mark II's don't have viral accuracy buffs on them... I don't remember seeing it, and I know it was missing on EP a while ago.)

The launcher doesn't have any viral accuracy bonus. Curious enough, it has a viral resistance bonus.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001126 03/29/2006 17:03:29 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

I see what your saying but if theres an ability that only costs 1 mem point and is that powerful they are going to use it every chance they get.

LiquidZ wrote:

Renesis13B wrote:
Im not sure how that would solve the problem.
LiquidZ wrote:
I think what might correct this is putting viral accuracy back on the program launchers...

Actually my logic here is that with the accuracy more on the launcher, people will rely on using "Upgrade Attacks" less. Hence the amount it boosts and be dropped.

Alot of the time to hack someone in pvp you MUST use upgrade attacks otherwise your hack will go through very rarely. The exception is when people don't bother to activate or use viral resist or defense buffs. Then it all seems to work fine.

#35300001144 03/30/2006 05:36:54 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Renesis, the same could be said for almost every ability in game, as many need only one slot of memory. SMILEY

Maybe if there's a small accuracy bonus at the launcher, like 8 to 10 points with it, the timer of Upgrade Attacks will fit good. Besides, from the last revision at the EP server and the current live version, there was an additional reduction on the bonus amount of the ability.

TekMon, The New Order

#35300001148 03/30/2006 07:11:56 Re: Upgrade Attacks Overpowered

Just for fun last night I loaded up some despoiler and howitzer abilities. Keep in mind my stats are all gunman and viral defense (27 belief and 30 focus). I had a total of 89 viral accuracy and I was able to clean out the npcs on the PBox 3 GPS missions (level 47's) on my first try without dieing. I didnt even have upgrade attacks loaded. Npc balance is fine.

As far as pvp balance goes outside of interlock with around 140 viral defense and someone that is an average hacker im getting hit around 40-50% of the time. The good hackers have a lot better success rate against me. For the amount of damage, the debuffs and various stuns and pacifies you dont have to land every attack to be effective.