It's hard to stand by and just take insults like that. Anome was doing what he thought was best. He at least deserves credit for that, and he was going to save that mans life until the Cypherites ruined it.
Symmetric wrote:
By swapping jabs at the Cypherites instead of focusing on protecting the Bluepill, he put his life and the life of that individual at stake, which is clearly something neither Zion nor the Machines would approve of. He let the Cypherites get the best of him, and he let his guard down. I've always applauded Anome for getting the job done as a mission controller...perhaps that's what he should stick with.
I don't need to sit here and take this - Recursion - 5/16/06
110 posts · 2006-05-19 21:45:00 to 2006-05-27 11:10:26
RetroX wrote:
You say he would heave left his wife and kids but he wouldnt have they had already left his world was falling about as he didnt believe in the system anymore. You tried to force him to belive in something that he could not to and when you force someone against their wishes terrible things happen
That is precisely what's bothering me about this whole thing. All those bad things that happened to Kendell -- losing the election, having his wife walk out on him, the loss of his kids -- it looks like all that was leading up to the meeting with someone from Zion. Like it was all planned out in advance, scripted, so he would be driven to take the red pill. Most bluepills of his age would have too much to lose if they were extracted from the Matrix, so they're usually not good targets for Zion to approach. But this man had just had all that taken away from him, so he would have nothing to lose, and emotionally he was very vulnerable...a perfect candidate for the red pill.
I am rather suspicious.
Illyria
I think those 3 pictures say it all. You Cypherites CHASED that poor man, who wanted nothing to do with EITHER side, right into the street. I think both sides are equally to blame for driving the man to a point of utter confusion, but the Cypherites didn't leave him **bleep** well enough alone. HE IS ALREADY "ASLEEP"! Isn't YOUR side of the battle already won that way? He stays asleep. Game over.
*sigh*
It's the struggle over who NEEDS to be right that drives me mad. We should ALL be ashamed...
I am sick of all this. Were you people there? Do I see any of you in those pictures? Did you hear what was said? Did you see what happened? NO. What you know is what Anome tells you. You think he's going to implicate himself in this? Of course not, he's gonna pass blame on the only people he can - the same people who everyone is so eager to hate. Us. And how better than sharing the pictures that make him look oh-so-innocent in this.
I know what happened, and Anome, you will pay for it. The next time we meet, you won't be getting away so easily.
I know what happened, and Anome, you will pay for it. The next time we meet, you won't be getting away so easily.
Illyria22 wrote:
RetroX wrote:
You say he would heave left his wife and kids but he wouldnt have they had already left his world was falling about as he didnt believe in the system anymore. You tried to force him to belive in something that he could not to and when you force someone against their wishes terrible things happen
That is precisely what's bothering me about this whole thing. All those bad things that happened to Kendell -- losing the election, having his wife walk out on him, the loss of his kids -- it looks like all that was leading up to the meeting with someone from Zion. Like it was all planned out in advance, scripted, so he would be driven to take the red pill. Most bluepills of his age would have too much to lose if they were extracted from the Matrix, so they're usually not good targets for Zion to approach. But this man had just had all that taken away from him, so he would have nothing to lose, and emotionally he was very vulnerable...a perfect candidate for the red pill.
I am rather suspicious.
Illyria
The city and all its functions are run by the machine. The election and everything that came from it are all results of choices people had. More people chose to vote for the other guy. His wife chose to leave him. They were all peoples choices. However I see what your getting at but the same can be applied to the machines. Could they have had something to do with the election going wrong? I ask you all to take a look at an example of what could be the case here.
Its a sad tale of a couple that had it all but had it all taken away by the machines. (See Deja Vu by Paul Chadwick)
DragnMastyr wrote:
I am sick of all this. Were you people there? Do I see any of you in those pictures? Did you hear what was said? Did you see what happened? NO. What you know is what Anome tells you. You think he's going to implicate himself in this? Of course not, he's gonna pass blame on the only people he can - the same people who everyone is so eager to hate. Us. And how better than sharing the pictures that make him look oh-so-innocent in this.
I know what happened, and Anome, you will pay for it. The next time we meet, you won't be getting away so easily.
IN deed we were not there. HOWEVER! We have the logs of what happened. The transmissions and video surveillance all showing that it wasnt Anome it was YOU.
GamiSB wrote:
The city and all its functions are run by the machine. The election and everything that came from it are all results of choices people had. More people chose to vote for the other guy. His wife chose to leave him. They were all peoples choices. However I see what your getting at but the same can be applied to the machines. Could they have had something to do with the election going wrong? I ask you all to take a look at an example of what could be the case here.
Its a sad tale of a couple that had it all but had it all taken away by the machines. (See Deja Vu by Paul Chadwick)
The link you've posted does prove that things in the Matrix can be manipulated, to produce a desired outcome. However, I doubt the Machines would have done all this to push Kendell into the arms of Zion.
If this was planned out in advance, it wasn't by the Machines.
Illyria
Illyria22 wrote:
GamiSB wrote:
The city and all its functions are run by the machine. The election and everything that came from it are all results of choices people had. More people chose to vote for the other guy. His wife chose to leave him. They were all peoples choices. However I see what your getting at but the same can be applied to the machines. Could they have had something to do with the election going wrong? I ask you all to take a look at an example of what could be the case here.
Its a sad tale of a couple that had it all but had it all taken away by the machines. (See Deja Vu by Paul Chadwick)
The link you've posted does prove that things in the Matrix can be manipulated, to produce a desired outcome. However, I doubt the Machines would have done all this to push Kendell into the arms of Zion.
If this was planned out in advance, it wasn't by the Machines.
Illyria
You missed the point. Human choice is there's alone. However things as you said can be manipulated. The Vote was a city thing. Machines run the city so ultimately they run the results. If you want to say it was a set up go ahead but do realize that the Machines would have started it all. As for his wife leaving. That is her choice. No one else's.
The choices and problems that lead to this situation are more then likely just products of fate. It was Roberts fate to die by the hands of stress brought on by the Cypherites. It was Roberts fate to have his wife leave him. It was his fate to loose the election. All these things lead to his death. You may think that this was a sad a miserable life he must have lead. Yes it was but already we can see the ultimate purpose behind it all. How you interpret it is up to you.
Yeah, beware the evil giant machine conspiracy to... er...
Lose a battery? That doesn't sound very efficient.
Make Anome look like a fool? We don't need to bother for that to occur.
Make Cypherites look like idiots? Again, already done.
Anome was not trying to save the man's life. Like all Zion operations for redpill pulls, the man's safety was not her primary concern - at his age, a successful trace and rescue would be problematic at best, while in the Matrix, he'd live a natural lifespan.
That's not to justify the Cypherite idiots that actually thought the best course of action would be to have a bunch of masked men surround an already depressed man of dubious sanity, then barrage him with propaganda, but I doubt Anome's actions leave her without blood on her hands, either.
Lose a battery? That doesn't sound very efficient.
Make Anome look like a fool? We don't need to bother for that to occur.
Make Cypherites look like idiots? Again, already done.
Anome was not trying to save the man's life. Like all Zion operations for redpill pulls, the man's safety was not her primary concern - at his age, a successful trace and rescue would be problematic at best, while in the Matrix, he'd live a natural lifespan.
That's not to justify the Cypherite idiots that actually thought the best course of action would be to have a bunch of masked men surround an already depressed man of dubious sanity, then barrage him with propaganda, but I doubt Anome's actions leave her without blood on her hands, either.
these two sum it up for me. in the first picture read the chat bar and decide if this man wanted to be awake.
and look at the second, who is the one fleeing the scene like someone that just got caught redhanded.
you can all say what you wish and blame whomever you want but the truth is, Anome did not offer him choice and our role was to balance the lack of choice with choice. Anome had to resort to namecalling, lies, deception, and all the other usual zion tactics for recruitment. All we did was remind him of his dream and try to help him find his way home. There was no bluepill in Anome's pockets or palms that day, yet we had both a red and a blue pill. shoot, anome even tried to convince him that we had already drugged him and that his pill could cure that...does that sound like truth or choice?
Tue May 16 18:25:01 2006 [Area] Anome: They've got you drugged up, man. Without you even knowing it.
Tue May 16 18:25:35 2006 [Area] Anome: I've got the cure for that.
Tue May 16 18:26:26 2006 [Area] Anome: Look. I have a pill. It won't hurt you, won't get you addicted.
then check this lie out. you can tell its a lie by two parts, the first is it is anome speaking it and the second is because we had no intel on this person until after we had our assignment to bust the meeting and present actual choice.
Tue May 16 18:29:41 2006 [Area] Anome: Oh, they've been stalking your family now, Robby. Isn't that nice? They're nice people, aren't they?
stalking??? Who created the terror in Mr. Kendell's heart?
Tue May 16 18:30:30 2006 [Area] Anome: That's 'cause they're fake, man! This is all a...a...a big lie.
stuttering anome? having problems spreading it on?
this next one looked like robert making his choice to wake up to his bed at home...
Tue May 16 18:32:53 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: I'm in a **bleep** bad dream. I'm going to wake up and be in my bed.
our offer of both pills, thi is how we saw it, he wanted a second chance with his family and his career not to become a cave monkey
Tue May 16 18:33:01 2006 [Area] Barakoa: Take the blue one, and you will have your second chance. Take the red one, and everything that counted for you will be wiped away.
Tue May 16 18:33:21 2006 [Area] Anome: **bleep** it...
and surely shouting this in his face was very calming and didnt cause this man to rush out into traffic...
Tue May 16 18:34:19 2006 [Area] Anome: It's a lie, dude! Your life is a lie!
as opposed to this from our side
Tue May 16 18:35:04 2006 [Area] DragnMastyr: Just take a moment. Deep breaths. And make your choice.
Tue May 16 18:35:07 2006 [Area] Anome: They're trying to put you back in the System, man.
Tue May 16 18:35:16 2006 [Area] Khursun: You're listening to a balding guy in a trench coat who approached you to take a pill while sitting at a bar...
Tue May 16 18:35:27 2006 [Area] Anome: You can't go back, can you? You're so close to knowing what's been behind all this crap, all your life.
Tue May 16 18:35:56 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: I. am to old.. Oh lord am I'm losing my mind?
Tue May 16 18:36:43 2006 [Area] Anome: Don't do it, Robby. Don't swallow their story again.
Tue May 16 18:37:03 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: You trying to brain wash me?
and now for my personal favorite that can be read in the first picture...
Tue May 16 18:36:57 2006 [Area] Davo: Don't let butter fingers here hand you anything. his lies are as awful as his ability to catch
Tue May 16 18:37:14 2006 [Area] Anome: Hey! The General threw it bad!
Tue May 16 18:37:28 2006 [Area] Khursun: That's the excuse they used in high school gym class, Anome.
Tue May 16 18:37:54 2006 [Area] Anome: Pfft. You weren't there, what do you know.
Tue May 16 18:38:19 2006 [Area] Davo: See Robert, even Anome talks about a high school and classes but then he tries to claim them as lies
Tue May 16 18:38:28 2006 [Area] Davo: How can you trust that
Tue May 16 18:38:35 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: That is..true.. but
Tue May 16 18:42:02 2006 [System] Anome refuses to be slapped.
Tue May 16 18:43:31 2006 [Area] Anome: Control, strike team on my position. We've got Cypherite hostiles here. The bluepill is down.
Tue May 16 18:48:17 2006 [Area] Barakoa: Your death will act as a sacrifice to the Cypherite cause. Now we know how senseless Zion is toward humanity. Our mission got a new incitative to continue.
Tue May 16 18:48:19 2006 [Area] CYL0N: we tried, and we will keep trying but this doesn't make it easier
Tue May 16 18:48:20 2006 [Area] DragnMastyr: You were a good man, Robert. May you find peace in your eternal sleep.
The choices that were made could be related to him rejecting the system. His sub consious yes it involved others but if there all connected what is to say someone cannot control another choice while in the matrix? The matrix has many secrets I doubteven the machines know everything about their creation which could involve those who reject the system affecting those closest to them... if the vote is run by the system and the system ditects him not beliving it could be way of purging the "unbelieve" as it were. How can you ask where the bluepill is you did not let the conversation get to the point of choice ...he already knew about the dream Anome was asking him about reality.
Misfit1 wrote:Really? Because it seems to me like you guys barged in before the conversation really even got started.
RogueA wrote:
I still would like to remind you all that Anome did not offer the man a choice. He basically said "Here, take this pill, it'll make you feel better." Then, he started to get pissed off at us when we offered the man the other side of this so-called choice, when we added in the blue pill. Anome would have been perfectly happy letting the man just swallow a red pill without ever giving him the other side of the equation. That there is dirty recruitment tactics.
According to eyewitnesses Robert was in fact running AWAY from the whole situation but reading the transcripts it is very clear that the last few minutes of his life was nothing but bombardment of the Cyper and their never ending
(What about your Kids, Your wife? etc) that in itself is too much to handle. YOU are responsible for his death directly.
I have butted heads with Anome many times but DON'T try to put the blame on him. You say you our support and that your caring etc.. But how in the world can you expect to be respected when everything that comes out of your mouth are lies. You lied about this, what else you lying about..
Thanks for the Memories MXO!
Just thought this small part deserved a double posting, its funny stuff
Tue May 16 18:36:57 2006 [Area] Davo: Don't let butter fingers here hand you anything. his lies are as awful as his ability to catch
Tue May 16 18:37:14 2006 [Area] Anome: Hey! The General threw it bad!
Tue May 16 18:37:28 2006 [Area] Khursun: That's the excuse they used in high school gym class, Anome.
Tue May 16 18:37:54 2006 [Area] Anome: Pfft. You weren't there, what do you know.
Tue May 16 18:38:19 2006 [Area] Davo: See Robert, even Anome talks about a high school and classes but then he tries to claim them as lies
Tue May 16 18:38:28 2006 [Area] Davo: How can you trust that
Tue May 16 18:38:35 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: That is..true.. but
Message Edited by Davo on 05.20.2006 01:51 PM
I don't care who is directly responsible for his death. That man should have never been targetted for possible extraction to begin with. He was too old by Zion's own rules and accordance. He was too settled to be retrieved.
I will not even comment on how the bluepill was not even mentioned as a choice. This is not within the terms of the truce and does not bode well. Zion is allowed to take those that want out - NOT offer up a red pill to ever Tom and Harry having a bad day.
"We have a rule..."
Then, by all means...follow it.
*sigh*
A needless waste of life. Who was to blame? that is irrelevant, whats important is that we try to control what happened, we need to know why this bluepill was a priority to be freed, maybe you just felt sorry for him Anome. *shrug*, maybe you could have dealt with the cyperites better, better yet you should have called in Zion operatives to help you deal with them, you know how to get hold of me, next time I suggest you do that.
As for the cypherites, they aided to confuse this man, they are also responcible for his death, and its just made my conviction to deal with them even stronger, if that was even possible. Cryptos, I hope you happy with your followers, what a joke.
Aquatium wrote:
As for the cypherites, they aided to confuse this man, they are also responcible for his death, and its just made my conviction to deal with them even stronger, if that was even possible. Cryptos, I hope you happy with your followers, what a joke.
They confused him by reminding him of the life he has and why he shouldn't throw it away. They acted as his inner conscience when Anome was happily trying to take advantage of the man's plight as a reason to take the red pill.
Despite what happened, the man should NEVER have been contacted or even brought into this. His mental state was horribly chaotic and not fit for making proper decisions.
I don't condone Cypherite methods, but I think in this case Zion needs to re-think who is offering red pills to the coppertops.
Anome was wrong and should just stick to parties and mindless drivel.
Yes, Anome was wrong in some ways, but the fact that the Cypherites are trying to act as if they have no blame in this death is terrible.
*Picks up a cel phone and calls Flood.....*
Flood, I'm sure you've already heard about this situation with Anome and the Cyphies?.....
*garbled insults from Flood*
I know, this guy is a complete moron. Hey, as long as they're keeping each other busy, we have less to worry about. It's like this Anome guy wants to screw things up.
*Flood laughs*
Alright, talk to you later.
*Flood insults Ambriel*
*Hangs up*
It always pays to look both ways before crossing a interseciton. It is a shame though.
Something tells me if it was TC,COS,MCDOE, with the cyph tags over there head when this event went down, the Gates of Heaven would be open to them by all Orgs and faction........
It's clear what was going on. Anome was trying to have a quiet chat with a bluepill who was becoming aware of the system. Who cares how old he was, if he was becoming aware and wanted to be freed he should.
Who says Anome wouldn't have given him a choice. He was going on well until bunch of strange masked men came in and started harassing the bluepill. You say Anome didn't give him a choice. I didn't see any Cypherites offering him a red pill either. You claim Anome didn't even have a bluepill. Prove it. You claim you had a red pill, prove that too.
All you **bleep** Cypherites did was come in, emotionally blackmail him, make a lot of statements that sounded to me like threats against his family, or would to a bluepill. I saw you claim Anome was a drug pusher, something you know full well to be a lie. I saw you chase him out of the bar and down the road while Anome was still far behind cursing your interferance.
You claim he was running away from a scene where he was 'caught red handed.' He was getting away from all the Cypherites who were trying to kill him.
Now all you cowardly masked b*******s, accept that you lied to an innocent man and led to his death, and stop trying to shift the blame onto someone else. Anome may not be perfect, definatly not a saint, but he's a good man. More then any of you will ever be.
Hmm... Cypherites driving harmless bluepills who's lives have been
shattered, who have no where else to go inside their hapless prison
without making a simple choice first, to insanity and death.
Interesting.
And Anome... You're not good at calling operations but at least you
know who needs a choice and a door to freedom. For that you have gained
back some of my respect.
shattered, who have no where else to go inside their hapless prison
without making a simple choice first, to insanity and death.
Interesting.
And Anome... You're not good at calling operations but at least you
know who needs a choice and a door to freedom. For that you have gained
back some of my respect.
where did this post show anything that says this guy was becoming aware. from everything i saw, anome did this on his own and appraoched this guy with a wild tale about how his life was a lie. you werent there. anome was yelling and cursing and trying to rattle this guy. we were just telling him to accept the life he had lived and nothing more. we didnt chase him out of that bar and into the road. he got up and ran out on anome and straight into the street. we were trying to stop him from getting himself hurt and nothing more. either way, i dont need to argue with people that make up their minds on limited information.
Tue May 16 18:33:01 2006 [Area] Barakoa: Take the blue one, and you will have your second chance. Take the red one, and everything that counted for you will be wiped away.
Tue May 16 18:33:21 2006 [Area] Anome: **bleep** it...
and surely shouting this in his face was very calming and didnt cause this man to rush out into traffic...
Tue May 16 18:34:19 2006 [Area] Anome: It's a lie, dude! Your life is a lie!
as opposed to this from our side
Tue May 16 18:35:04 2006 [Area] DragnMastyr: Just take a moment. Deep breaths. And make your choice.
definately sounds like we were not offering choice and telling him to follow his gut and not us. how about some more random quotes and transcripts from that day
Tue May 16 18:24:44 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: i need a moment this is all confusing for me. I'm old you see. Well older then you boys
Tue May 16 18:31:17 2006 [Area] Viraconrida: Robert. It is your choice.
Tue May 16 18:35:16 2006 [Area] Khursun: You're listening to a balding guy in a trench coat who approached you to take a pill while sitting at a bar...
Tue May 16 18:32:53 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: I'm in a **bleep** bad dream. I'm going to wake up and be in my bed.
Tue May 16 18:35:27 2006 [Area] Anome: You can't go back, can you? You're so close to knowing what's been behind all this crap, all your life.
Tue May 16 18:35:56 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: I. am to old.. Oh lord am I'm losing my mind?
Tue May 16 18:36:43 2006 [Area] Anome: Don't do it, Robby. Don't swallow their story again.
Tue May 16 18:37:03 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: You trying to brain wash me?
Tue May 16 18:34:19 2006 [Area] Anome: It's a lie, dude! Your life is a lie!
Tue May 16 18:34:30 2006 [Area] RobertKendell: My life is a lie..
Tue May 16 18:35:27 2006 [Area] Anome: You can't go back, can you? You're so close to knowing what's been behind all this crap, all your life.
Tue May 16 18:35:50 2006 [Area] CYL0N: Anome have you no heart for his family , for his feelings for his children
and after his death
Tue May 16 18:48:17 2006 [Area] Barakoa: Your death will act as a sacrifice to the Cypherite cause. Now we know how senseless Zion is toward humanity. Our mission got a new incitative to continue.
Tue May 16 18:48:19 2006 [Area] CYL0N: we tried, and we will keep trying but this doesn't make it easier
Tue May 16 18:48:20 2006 [Area] DragnMastyr: You were a good man, Robert. May you find peace in your eternal sleep.
Tue May 16 18:48:44 2006 [Area] Claurice: Let's settle the dead and speak to the living, who will tell the family?
Tue May 16 18:48:47 2006 [Area] Barakoa: Let's leave. There's nothing we can do. We can'T stay on the crime scene
Tue May 16 18:48:49 2006 [System] Khursun salutes to RobertKendell.
Tue May 16 18:48:54 2006 [Area] Barakoa: We'll take care of it
Tue May 16 18:48:56 2006 [System] Claurice salutes to RobertKendell.
Message Edited by Davo on 05.20.2006 06:16 PM
Okay, and while you're posting logs... how about the part where Anome pushed the guy into traffic? I still don't see the proof here. I see Cypherites driving a man crazy. As far as offering a choice goes... I didn't exactly see you Maskies offering a redpill, either.
<Nefertani: The pusher is offering you a drug.>
Anome's a drug pusher for offering the redpill but Cypherites aren't for pushing the bluepill?
<CYL0N: That's funny, Anome, anyway Robert let's have us a little chat shall we, Something in the way of prescription drugs maybe>
Smooth non drug pusher intro there CYL0N.
Anome didn't give him a choice but the Cypherites did?
<CYL0N: that is not the question I asked, I asked do you love them, and if the answer is yes, there is no choice>
Way to offer him a choice CYL0N.
Pshaw! This is pathetic squabling. The Cypherites didn't offer him a choice, they drove him mad. Cypherite interference caused the death of a bluepill.
Just another example of how little Machinists value life and understand choice. Any bluepill who wants to be freed can be. That's part of the truce. Where's the part about an age restriction? That's just an old quote from way before the truce was ever established. Even then, there was an exception. Everything changes with time and all rules have exceptions... (of course the exception to exceptions is when it's inconvenient to a Machinist argument).
Once again Zion must clean up the mess Machinists make. The Cypherites are your problem Machinists, they're your brothers and sisters. What will you do about it? Apparently nothing but blame others.
Well this is not about blame. Zion knows what the Cypherites have done and the threat they are. Anome, Tyndall, Merrit and every Zion operative are all absolutely clear on this. Once again Zion will deal with the problems created by a fractious Machine organization.
We should be working together to rid the Matrix of the Merovingian. Instead, he'll be sitting there fortifying his position and strengthening his resources while Zion cleans up the mess of a fractious Machine organization that's busy chasing its own tails.
Machinist chaos FTW! Yeah right...
Walks off into the night shaking head sadly while polishing Lancet...
Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05.20.2006 07:02 PM
I edit everything
Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05.20.2006 07:03 PM
This is the one quote that will end this silly debate:
[Barakoa: Catch him!!]
[Barakoa shouts: Go!!]
You pathetic little dreamers. All you had to do was keep Anome from following him. That was it. Instead you chase him out into traffic. Pathetic.
/jedihandwave
I have nothing more to say to you. Expect hositilites between us to increase.
/target Barakoa
/insult
Alright, Anome, I'll admit it. I definitely thought you to be at fault here. So much so that I would've been willing to see you removed from Zion's ranks by any means necessary, but these photos and your report have proven otherwise to me.
In my eyes it is now evident that this bluepill was acting quite rationally while meeting privately with Anome. It does not appear that the topic of choice had even come up before the Cypherites stormed the location and began bombarding the man with vibrant and frightening images of losing his entire family and began repeatedly berating him with the offer of the blue pill even before Anome made mention of the true nature of the Matrix.
It is apparent to me that because of Cypherite involvement in this operation, the bluepill was so confused he made a mad dash to get away from it all. And on top if it all, the Cypherites attempted to chase him down, and then spread rumors that it was Anome who pushed him into the street and was ultimately responsible for the car crash which ended his life.
This only furthers my disdain for the Cypherites... You disciples of the blue pill could at least practice what you preach. Anome may well have offered the blue pill to Robert Kendell, but considering the situation at hand, you did that job for him a little too well. You pushed him to one extreme, and the extreme that Anome took was necessary to try and reach an equilibrium between the two very forceful tugs on either end of the rope in this game of blue pill/red pill tug of war, which eventually resulted in a snap which forced this man to go mad.
In order to protect the bluepills, you need to take into consideration the other extreme. That you are, perhaps, too strongly encouraging them to accept a world which they naturally reject. There is a reason beyond psychology some potentials select the red pill. In the future, please be so kind as to send only one representative from your organization instead of an armada surrounding the man and confusing him to the point where he believed you were a secret organization out to get him for one thing or another.
You have quite a bit of explaining to do for spreading the rumors that Anome was directly responsible for the death of this man.
Anome, you have my sincerest apologies, and full support in this movement. However, Symmetric is also correct in that an alternative which should have been taken would have been rescheduling a meeting with this man. However, I can also see whre you may have thought that had you backed down at this point, the Cypherites would have taken "preventative" actions towards keeping you, or followers of Zion from providing him with proper choice. I do, however, feel that you should have taken that risk. After all, being trapped within the system is still better than the ultimate fate which this man suffered.
May whatever God rules over this barren land- this arid, mechanical, real Earth which we inhabit- have mercy on your eternal souls, all of you.
Your actions there were disgusting, Anome. Forcing a redpill to reconstruct or even killing them is one thing, but killing a bluepill without just cause?
But it is your inability to admit to your obvious crime that I find the most appalling.
You are truly the lowest of your organization. At least when Morpheus killed, it was for what he believed in. Even when EPN members set off code bombs, they took responsibility for their actions.
This is not a matter of what organization you belong, this is not a matter of who was there opposing you, this is a matter of justice.
And when you refuse to take part in justice, there are always consequences.
reznik wrote:
Your actions there were disgusting, Anome. Forcing a redpill to reconstruct or even killing them is one thing, but killing a bluepill without just cause?
But it is your inability to admit to your obvious crime that I find the most appalling.
You are truly the lowest of your organization. At least when Morpheus killed, it was for what he believed in. Even when EPN members set off code bombs, they took responsibility for their actions.
This is not a matter of what organization you belong, this is not a matter of who was there opposing you, this is a matter of justice.
And when you refuse to take part in justice, there are always consequences.
Did you even read the transcripts or see the eyewitness photos? Anome did not kill this guy the Cypers did.
You keep refer to him as though he PUSHED him. He didnt do anything they did.
Thanks for the Memories MXO!
MidnightFH wrote:
reznik wrote:
Your actions there were disgusting, Anome. Forcing a redpill to reconstruct or even killing them is one thing, but killing a bluepill without just cause?
But it is your inability to admit to your obvious crime that I find the most appalling.
You are truly the lowest of your organization. At least when Morpheus killed, it was for what he believed in. Even when EPN members set off code bombs, they took responsibility for their actions.
This is not a matter of what organization you belong, this is not a matter of who was there opposing you, this is a matter of justice.
And when you refuse to take part in justice, there are always consequences.
Did you even read the transcripts or see the eyewitness photos? Anome did not kill this guy the Cypers did.
You keep refer to him as though he PUSHED him. He didnt do anything they did.
I suggest that you take a closer look at them, friend.
No such information is gained from them.
In fact Anome is the only person close enough to the blue to have pushed him.
The screenshots show Cypherites chasing a frightened man out of a bar and into a street where he was killed by a car. I never saw Anome chasing Mr. Kendall, I never heard Anome say, "Get him!", I never saw Anome driving this innocent man mad. But the Cypherites did all that, and then blamed it on Anome.
Again. Cypherites, back up your claims with proof that Anome killed this man. One can not accept the word of a Cypherite. If you want anyone to sympathize with you, or believe that Anome pushed this man in the streets, you're going to need to show some proof. Otherwise, you will be held accountable for the unfortunate death of Mr. Kendell.
I wasn't talking to you.
EDIT: I'm not questioning whether Anome was going about the recruitment the right way. That's not the issue. My issue is with the claims that Anome pushed this man into traffic. From what I see, it was, in fact, the Cypherites that drove him over the edge and chased him out into the street. Unless they can show their own photographs and audio logs, then that is exactly what we will all continue to believe.
Message Edited by Fenshire on 05.21.2006 02:53 AM
stupid double posting, my bad :smileyindifferent:
Message Edited by Davo on 05.21.2006 03:00 AM
Fenshire, my main man, I think you are on a literal trip. You must be envisioning anome grabbing a hold of him and forcing him into traffic. This was a metaphoric push, Anome was yelling and cursing, pushing things way too fast, way too far, and without giving him proper choice. Anome's actions are what "pushed" this guy to the edge. It is evenings like this one that create a need for the cypherite cause, you make your own enemies and expose your own weaknesses more and more zion.
Fenshire wrote:
I wasn't talking to you.
EDIT: I'm not questioning whether Anome was going about the recruitment the right way. That's not the issue. My issue is with the claims that Anome pushed this man into traffic. From what I see, it was, in fact, the Cypherites that drove him over the edge and chased him out into the street. Unless they can show their own photographs and audio logs, then that is exactly what we will all continue to believe.
Message Edited by Fenshire on 05.21.200602:53 AM
Thank you for your honesty, Davo. In my opinion, based on the visuals and audio logs, it was the Cypherites who were to blame for the death of Mr. Kendell. Anome, even though I'd like to put a bullet in his skull, wasn't the one to bring up the traumas of the man's past.
The best solution to the problems above would be to standardize the awakening process. That way, we don't have Cypherites trying to cram the blue pill down peoples' throats, and we don't have Zion neglecting to offer a choice.
I think I might be the first Cypherite here to say they are ashamed of both sides involved. We are not here to force the bluepill down peoples throats. That makes us no better than those Zionists throwing reddies around like candy to any passerby. Anome did not offer the man the choice like he should have. But neither did the Cypherites involved. How quickly we forget that the choices we make have already been made. At a mere unconcious level we have all chosen to accept or reject the Matrix. Those who promote the bluepill are a direct result of the forcable nature of the Zionists who think that the choice is made on the spot, after living a life in the Matrix. If someone wants out, they find you do they not? This man was not searching for answers. He was searching for comfort. All he wanted was his life back.
Why does every bluepill that looks like they might be a candidate for "the choice" become a mere object to be fought over? I did not choose to join the Cypherites because I want to go back to sleep. Nor do I want everyone in the Matrix to stay in their pods. I want those who are not part of the 1% of humanity who rejects the system to keep their lives. Freedom does not exist just outside of the simulation. It exists to those who choose to live a normal life within these invisible walls.
I do not blame one party over the other. I just believe we all need to rethink what we are doing with regards to the lives of the dreamers.
To the Cypherites who were there: Tone it down. You're becoming the complete opposite of E Pluribus Neo. From one extreme to the other. We aren't here to pressure anyone.
To Anome and other Zionists who have contempt for us: We are the product of your overzealous recruiting. We aren't the enemy, we are the guardians of the defencless. Remember to watch out for the signs of a waker before cramming that red pill down their throat. The vast majority don't want it.
- A concerned Cypherite
Why does every bluepill that looks like they might be a candidate for "the choice" become a mere object to be fought over? I did not choose to join the Cypherites because I want to go back to sleep. Nor do I want everyone in the Matrix to stay in their pods. I want those who are not part of the 1% of humanity who rejects the system to keep their lives. Freedom does not exist just outside of the simulation. It exists to those who choose to live a normal life within these invisible walls.
I do not blame one party over the other. I just believe we all need to rethink what we are doing with regards to the lives of the dreamers.
To the Cypherites who were there: Tone it down. You're becoming the complete opposite of E Pluribus Neo. From one extreme to the other. We aren't here to pressure anyone.
To Anome and other Zionists who have contempt for us: We are the product of your overzealous recruiting. We aren't the enemy, we are the guardians of the defencless. Remember to watch out for the signs of a waker before cramming that red pill down their throat. The vast majority don't want it.
- A concerned Cypherite
No,
Kidgil wrote:
To Anome and other
Zionists who have contempt for us: We are the product of your
overzealous recruiting. We aren't the enemy, we are the guardians of
the defencless. Remember to watch out for the signs of a waker before
cramming that red pill down their throat. The vast majority don't want
it.
- A concerned Cypherite
thats the Machines Job. If people wanna go back Agents can reinsert
them. Cypherites exsist so they can force people back into their pods
with a bluepill or with death.
The way i see it is this, the screenshots show that Anome was having a normal recruiting conversation with Mr Kendall, although he is old for extraction, there are times when the odd exception comes along and is neccessary to extract them, then the Cypherites came in hopeing that, from their view, wouldn't have to suffer the Real world like they did. It is argued that Anome didn't offer the freedom of choice, that he didn't offer the Bluepill, but how do we know he wasn't going to offer the Bluepill? well we won't ever know but it is usual standard Zion procedure to do so, he might have done had not the Cypherites interfered and Angered him, which is what i think made Anome just offer the Redpill. The Cypherites offered the Bluepill, but it is argued that it is the Cypherites, Not Anome, that didn't allow for choice, but they could have had a Redpill too, again we won't ever know, althogh if i was in their postion i would have had the Redpill just in case, could't hurt them to have another soldier to their cause. The Cypherites used the argument that Mr Kendall's family needed him and that he should stay, but it is clear the Mans wife and kids had left him, next when things were getting desperate, Cypherites started being tactless by blackmailing Mr Kendall, by saying things like "If you take the Redpill, you will never see your family again" clearly this was tactless on their part, Anome unfortunately didn't use the Truth to his advantage by persauding Mr Kendall what realy would happen, but again under such preassure the words just didn't come out for him. Next after awhile, Mr Kendall ran out of the Bar, chased by the Cypherites saying things like "Get him" and "Go" with Anome bringing up the rear cursing the Cypherites, then Mr Kendall gets killed by a car, at which point the Cypherites blame Anome and visa versa, Anome calls Zion tactical team to take care of Cypherites, and what looks like he Runs off, well no point in giving them a chance to kill him, some see it as cowardice, but then you could say the same thing everytime someone rolls out of a fight, at which point it could also bee seen as survival.
Judging by the fact that it's just mostly the Cypherites blaming Anome for the incident, Well i would expect as such everyone protects their organisations actions, and on the other hand its's mostly Zionites, Neonites and Machnists who say its's the Cypherites fault for getting the Bluepill killed,. despite all the Cypherites best efforts to say its Anomes fault, in reality this incident is a Great blow for the Cypherite cause, as their reputation has just been tarnished, i guess nothing really goes to plan. I do believe however that Anome was doing the right thing, GO ZION :smileyvery-happy:
No,
thats the Machines Job. If people wanna go back Agents can reinsert
them. Cypherites exsist so they can force people back into their pods
with a bluepill or with death.
That is where you are wrong. I'm not trying to get Awakened people reinserted, I'm trying not to let Bluepills who don't want the truth to be forced to wake up. Machinists are all for the moderation but as long as they are truced with Zion they see Cypherites as the enemy. We don't want to force anyone back to the pods. If you choose to live outside of the simulation, have fun. As far as you E Pluribus Neo folk go, you're spitting on Neo's grave by waking up every bluepill who walks your way. Only 1%, count it 1% of the bluepill population wants "freedom" as you call it. Do you even know why you're doing it? It sure as hell doesn't benifit the sleeping.
That's what I defend. As a Cypherite I am here to keep those who don't want the red pill from getting tricked into a life they don't want, fighting for a cause that is meaningless.
thats the Machines Job. If people wanna go back Agents can reinsert
them. Cypherites exsist so they can force people back into their pods
with a bluepill or with death.
That is where you are wrong. I'm not trying to get Awakened people reinserted, I'm trying not to let Bluepills who don't want the truth to be forced to wake up. Machinists are all for the moderation but as long as they are truced with Zion they see Cypherites as the enemy. We don't want to force anyone back to the pods. If you choose to live outside of the simulation, have fun. As far as you E Pluribus Neo folk go, you're spitting on Neo's grave by waking up every bluepill who walks your way. Only 1%, count it 1% of the bluepill population wants "freedom" as you call it. Do you even know why you're doing it? It sure as hell doesn't benifit the sleeping.
That's what I defend. As a Cypherite I am here to keep those who don't want the red pill from getting tricked into a life they don't want, fighting for a cause that is meaningless.
Message Edited by Kidgil on 05.21.2006 08:41 PM
Message Edited by Kidgil on 05.21.2006 08:42 PM
Look
Kidgil wrote:
No,
thats the Machines Job. If people wanna go back Agents can reinsert
them. Cypherites exsist so they can force people back into their pods
with a bluepill or with death.
That
is where you are wrong. I'm not trying to get Awakened people
reinserted, I'm trying not to let Bluepills who don't want the truth to
be forced to wake up. Machinists are all for the moderation but as long
as they are truced with Zion they see Cypherites as the enemy. We don't
want to force anyone back to the pods. If you choose to live outside of
the simulation, have fun. As far as you E Pluribus Neo folk go, you're
spitting on Neo's grave by waking up every bluepill who walks your way.
Only 1%, count it 1% of the bluepill population wants "freedom" as you
call it. Do you even know why you're doing it? It sure as hell doesn't
benifit the sleeping.
That's what I defend. As a Cypherite I am
here to keep those who don't want the red pill from getting tricked
into a life they don't want, fighting for a cause that is meaningless.Message Edited by Kidgil on 05.21.2006 08:41 PM
Message Edited by Kidgil on 05.21.2006 08:42 PM
around you, your one of the only Cypherites that feels that way.
Viraconrida and her pets spit out nothing but death threats and
bluepill campaigns. We only free those that want out, not anyone that
comes our way. Were not spitting on Neos legacy because his legacy was
freedom for mankind which is what our goal is. Neo died for peace not a
truce.
Message Edited by Vaico on 05.21.2006 05:41 AM
I love how you never mentioned that mostly because of you not giving him an option of red pill or blue pill caused the stress to get worse... telling him that he can only take the redpill isnt much of a choice..
Peace doesn't happen over night. You can't just parade around with your prophet dusters, announcing that you follow what Neo wanted and expect to be taken seriously. Neo wanted peace. The truce is the first step to getting there. I don't see how abducting blue pills and sending strike teams at other Organizations is helping the truce but play it your way.
Ah hahahahaha! Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh hahahahahahahaha!
HA
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha
Ha Ha Ha!
The so cold, ushers of a second chance. Offering to us all, again, the selective delights of a farcical universe. From beneath your holy cloth, you silence choice with the drone of uninspired thought. Anome lent out his hands, in each, a choice, to choose paths. To choose farce, to pull the sheet from your face and lay awake in your bed. Or to choose another path, and wake up, pull the steel from your newly carved orifices. Each of you sunk teeth into his mind, pulling at every direction. You masked speak ideals of choice, to return to a mechanical freedom at your OWN leisure. Did Veil exchange words of your cannibalism? Do you believe the words you repeat from your masters?
Veil believes, Cryptos believes, and each will take upon themselves, the reality of their actions. Yet their followers wish to push away reality so far, that they give up their own conscience.
Veil. We stood beneath the fluoro lights and exchanged words of ideals. While the hands of time did not keep us, our pools of vision were as one. Neither wanted to raise arms. Your followers lack the vision you retain. Do they believe? Veil, Cryptos, your pools of vision cannot retain tears from this tragedy, they surely would burst forth. Fill your retainers with the proper ideals, so that they are their own and not borrowed from yourselves. They are the birds of prey...
Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why?
Why? Why? Why?
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Nathics laughed.
Exactly. This is starting to get ridiculous. Reviewing both sides of the stories after my own post, I'll have to say, it's both parties' faults.
Anome was too brash to pick a man who was too old to extract, although it looked like he was really about to take the red pill.
The Cypherites acted too harsh in an attempt to keep Mr. Kendall from making "the same mistake" as they did.
Alone, maybe Mr. Kendall would have taken a pill from one of the parties present. But together amongst all the bickering and arguing and who threw what at who in what way, they caused too much stress for Mr. Kendall.
Now, instead of allowing him some breathing room, they (both parties) chased after him, intent on forcing the man to make his choice before he could properly think.
Innocent casuality of recruit efforts and anti-recruit efforts. Let's see if I can't make a good hypothetical out of this:
If I buy a cheeseburger from, say, McBurgers, and find it to be terrible, does that give me the right to attempt to convince others who may find it enjoyable from buying it? And on the other side, does that give me the right to just shove it down the throat of anybody I come across? 'course, I don't think Anome just picked some random guy off the street, so...technically, I'm still siding with him.
Message Edited by ZippydaSquirl on 05.21.2006 09:47 AM
...Good God, you are unbelievably useless Anome.
~V
~V
i have still yet to see one bit of evidence that say Mr. Kendell was going to take the red pill. I was there, he had no interest in any of this. he just wanted to go home and rebuild his life. several times our operatives reminded him that he had choice and all anome could do was call everything lies.
you will all believe what you wish, of course. just remember though, you weren't there to see it for yourself. re-read those screens and transcripts and point me to one instance where this guy was going to go red.
Davo wrote:
i have still yet to see one bit of evidence that say Mr. Kendell was going to take the red pill. I was there, he had no interest in any of this. he just wanted to go home and rebuild his life. several times our operatives reminded him that he had choice and all anome could do was call everything lies.
you will all believe what you wish, of course. just remember though, you weren't there to see it for yourself. re-read those screens and transcripts and point me to one instance where this guy was going to go red.
I have yet to see evidence of either point. The point I'm making is that he seemd a lot calmer before you Cypherites showed up and started pushing him towards the blue pill. He repeatedly called you freaks and questioned who you were, and what you wanted with him. In my eyes, it was your presence and pushiness that drove him to the irrational actions which he took, wheras when he was meeting privately with Anome, he was calm, cool, and collected about his words.
I don't care that I wasn't there. If anything, that only removes bias from the situation. I am an objective overseer of the situation with the evidence given. If you have further evidence which proves your point, then by all means, present it.
It was a suicide. He seemed very depressed and confused during that whole thing. Maybe he thought he was dreaming and that suicide was the only way to wake up.