Feedback Request: Diagnostic Tool

This would make a great addition in pvp as well as tourniment fighting.  rsi analizing could be a abbility and when used in combat could give pvpers a good idea of how buffed the enemy actually is.  again, no specifics but wether the folks you are fighting have upgrades or buffed clothing in general, tac boosters or org abilities running, like a threat assessment.  I'd say the info should be brought in by tells as well.  no need to make it completely public.  one person to find the info and report it to others is good enough.  great idea!  let's do this!

Frog, would it be too much to ask if this ability allowed you to access that person's Status window for 30 seconds with a 1 minute reuse timer?

I know that this would be a bit much without some kind of comprimise.

My proposal, a death effect-like status after you use the Diagnostic Tool, in which it lowers that person effectiveness in combat down 25% of that person's usefulness in combat for a certain amount of time, say 5 minutes.  This would gradually fade away much like the death effect.

Being that this tool is for Tournament and Data collection use anyway, the "referees" would have nothing to complain about (Because there not going to be fighting anyway).  And it would prevent people from over using it in pvp.

Any thoughts?

Cool idea, but it would take a really long time to implement, in fact I wouldn't know how to implement that myself



Here's what I've got the tool doing so far:



It takes 10 seconds to use it, so it would be tough in PvP, but possible.



It just has four possible responses it can give you - either that the
player has no detected upgrades going, or that they have Org Abilities,
Consumable Buffs, or Patcher Buffs going, or a mix of those.



The stuff it looks for are the following:



Consumables: any tactics boosters or health boosters (the other ones
would be done by the time you scanned two people with the tool, so I
didn't look for any of those).



Org Abilities: any org ability.



Patcher Buffs: it looks for any of the following:

Bolster Health 1, 2, or 3

Combat Enhancement 1

Efficiency

EnhancedDodge

Fast Healing 1 or 2

Improved Hacking

Movement Accelerator 1 2 or 3

Negative Condition Sweep 1 or 2

Network Firewall 1

Personal Firewall 1 or 2

Resist Combat

Sweep Party 1 or 2

Upgrade Health

Upgrade Master Buff



If it sounds like I'm missing any there please let me know!

Yes off hand you missed Weapons boost.

Oh, yeah, good point. I didn't include any abilities that you could
only cast on yourself. Do y'all think I should I go ahead and include
those under the "misc. Patchers upgrades" section?

Will self-activated passive buffs such as hyper dodge, hyper block, determination, etc. be shown with the tool?

I haven't had them showing so far, but I could certainly add them if people generally want to know that info.

You said 10 seconds to cast, what is the reuse timer on this?

About the awakened abilities I don't think it's really needed to show because it could turn into a big system chat spam if the person has several buffs.

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HCFrog wrote:
I haven't had them showing so far, but I could certainly add them if people generally want to know that info.

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Well i dont think this is needed since Awakened Abilities are fair play and nobody should know them just like the tree builds.

Awakened buffs no. Then it becomes a tactical analyses tool and I don't think that's what you are shooting for.

However, it would be very helpful to include style stacking info since there doesn't appear to be any effort to stop this from being used in PvP, duels or otherwise.

I still don't think this should be useable in PvP, ever.  Can someone explain to me why they should be entitled to know if someone has TB, patcher buffs or org abilites on in PvP?

There is no doubt that if this is useable in PvP, it will be employed to find weaknesses to attack. That is counter to the intent of maintaining integrity in duels and tournaments.

PvP is free for all, no restrictions, so I fail to see any benefit for having this available in PvP.

Even with a 10 second timer, it will be used in PvP regulary to analyze the opponents if it is available. Perfectly good assignment for a level 15....

hmm the TB and HB thing is GREAT YUS, no more BSERS saying i dont have any, pshh, lawl..

What I said was what I said. Read it again if you don't quite get it. The tool is intended to be used for duels and tournaments. This is Frog's intention and specifically why he put a ten second timer on it, "to make it difficult to use in PvP".  My point is that a ten second timer is not a practical obstacle to using it in PvP and if it has any tactical use in PvP (intended or not) it will be used excessively for that purpose.

It should not be useable in PvP at all unless the intent is to design a tool for analyzing opponents weaknesses in PvP. That was never stated to be the intented use of this tool. Maybe you'd like that and that's fine for you to say so.

I don't see any justification for creating a tool to analyze opponents' weaknesses in PvP. I thoroughly support the design of a tool for determining whether people are violating the rules of tournament or lying about buffs and what not in a duel.

Since PvP has no rules, there is no ethical need for such a tool unless it can be used for determining whether peeps are using sploitz.

If you want a tool so you can sit there waiting to flag up on someone who isn't tbing or doesn't have buffs in PvP or better yet so you can chicken out because everyone is buffed, then just say so. Don't try to twist my words because you don't agree with me and don't have the guts to just say what you want.

Your opinion is just as valuable as mine. Your manipulation of my opinion is worthless.

I wasn't manipulating your opinion.  I think it is pretty clear.  I was just pointing out that the problems you listed for having the tool in PvP could also be seen as good things by others.  Plus, I included a friendly smiley, because I'm... er... friendly. :smileytongue:

People on Vector don't "wait to flag up".

If you make it unusable while flagged... it makes it worthless to an entire server.

Hey Froggie,

Will this be useable in Stealth or concealment?  What would the range be for this? (20m+ PLZPLZPLZ)  Also, will it tell us what kind of buffs are on Proxies? Like fortify sim?

What about some operative abilities like Force combat? Beserker? Iron Body? (just some examples, I've been offline for 2 weeks now, so I'm surprized I can remember that much)

IMHO, I don't think abilities with a 20 second or less duration timer should be included and anything that last for 1 minute or more should be included into the Diagnostic tool.

When getting a reading from the diagnostic tool, can we get a message stating the tree the buff is from, and how many?

Example:  I diagnose -=Dude=- and he has Bolster Health 1.0, Personal Firewall 1.0, and Enhansed Dodge running on him.  The Message that I would recieve is: -=Dude=- has 2 Patcher buffs running, and 1 Upgrade Artist buff running.

This way, it allows the savvy MxO player to try and figure out what those abilities are, without invading on that person's exact combat stategy.

r3spon5e has a really good point: it is not within the design of this tool to use it for PvP.





The tricky part really is how do you see if someone wants to be scanned
by the tool, without using a dialog confirmation box (which as I said
earlier is open to abuse). You can't check the player's PvP status
because of Vector; the tool wouldn't work there and would clearly not
meet the design intended.





So, what I'm trying to get now are use conditions that make it harder
to use in PvP. And the range issue seems like a fantastic idea.





10 second use time, range of 1 meter, user must be visible... those
three things would combine to make it really hard to use in PvP, I
would imagine, because even if you're in interlock you'd typically be
moving more than 1 meter away within 10 seconds. It will have some sort
of little animation on using the tool as well, so if someone walked up
really close to you and played the little animation, you'd know what
they were up to... that might be an ideal solution.

another thing that would help keep it out of pvp was (like you said) a range you had to be from the target. But how about if the target moves then it stops which would make it really hard cause in pvp they're people are always moving.

Why don't you just make it so the target has to accept being scanned, like an emote? Make a pop up box that says Player1 would like to scan your for org based abilities, do you accept? Yes No.

He can then accept it if it is a duel, thereby making it useful only for dueling and not for PvP because no one would accept during PvP.

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 02:03 PM

I edit everything

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 02:05 PM

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 02:05 PM

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 02:08 PM

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LiquidZ wrote:

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KivoOnline wrote:

Why don't you just make it so the target has to accept being scanned, like an emote? Make a pop up box that says Player1 would like to scan your for org based abilities, do you accept? Yes No.

He can then accept it if it is a duel, thereby making it useful only for dueling and not for PvP because no one would accept during PvP.

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This is the most correct way to do it, however people will spam a target with these requests is what Frog's concern is.

Personally I do beleive that players that spam a target with requests should be treated the same as those that spam area chat.

Frog's method is to prevent the problem before it can be a problem. Proactive 4tw!

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Is this the reason we are not able to emote hostiles? That's the stupidest reason I've heard, it should just be a /ccr'able offense. It sucks for us on Vector since we can never, ever emote hostile players. Tons of reds are friends of mine but I can't /dap them

1 meter is a bit close, but 15 is WAY to far. That's 30 feet! 
Maybe like 5 meters tops, but less is okay too.  3 maybe?



A dialog would kinda suck though, because what if the dude that wants
to duel you doesnt want to cooperate? Seems like it could open up the
oppurtunity for people to be **jerks**

I think 1m range is fine since you'd be using it more as a referee then anything else, so you better be ok with him getting near you .

I think the point of a 1 meter range is to create an effect similar to what Bonopi suggested (target movement interrupts scan).

With a 1 meter range, 10 second casting time and a visible graphic while casting, it would be very difficult to scan anyone who didn't want to be scanned.

As Bonopi suggested, when the target moves (in this case less than 3 feet) it would interrupt the scan. 

So the target would have ten seconds to move less than 3 feet to interrupt the scan.

However, the scan could still be used against an unwilling target in PvP who is rooted/stunned continuosly for more than 10 seconds (which is very possible to do in PvP).

That's why I suggest a high memory cost for loading it and, if possible, for a target with the Diagnostic ability loaded to conn "Diagnostic".

This way if someone still tried to use it in PvP, their loadout would make them very vulnerable and their conn would bely this vulnerability.

In the end, if it is at all useable in PvP, there is no doubt peeps will use it. So I think the best thing to do is minimize it's effectiveness (1m, ten seconds, or any movement interrupts the scan) and maximize it's danger (hi memory cost and "Diagnostic" conn).

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 06:20 PM

I edit everything

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 06:21 PM

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 06:25 PM

I don't know about making it require an ability, since that would increase overhead quite a bit. How about making the tool kind of expensive (couple i$100k) and having it lose stability rather quickly instead of requiring some Referee tree to use it?

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 06:56 PM

I edit everything

Message Edited by r3spon5e on 05-05-2006 06:56 PM

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HCFrog wrote:
r3spon5e has a really good point: it is not within the design of this tool to use it for PvP.

The tricky part really is how do you see if someone wants to be scanned by the tool, without using a dialog confirmation box (which as I said earlier is open to abuse). You can't check the player's PvP status because of Vector; the tool wouldn't work there and would clearly not meet the design intended.

So, what I'm trying to get now are use conditions that make it harder to use in PvP. And the range issue seems like a fantastic idea.

10 second use time, range of 1 meter, user must be visible... those three things would combine to make it really hard to use in PvP, I would imagine, because even if you're in interlock you'd typically be moving more than 1 meter away within 10 seconds. It will have some sort of little animation on using the tool as well, so if someone walked up really close to you and played the little animation, you'd know what they were up to... that might be an ideal solution.

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I'm a vectorite and if this tool is made too difficult to use in PVP, then why even go through the effort of even having a tool designed for favoratism toward the non hostile servers? Us vectorites get hosed out of a potentially useful tool.  I don't see the point of specifically making this tool to be best used in a duel/tournament situation, because vector doesn't have as many duels or tournaments as the others servers.  Why create something that an entire server won't use due to its inherently difficult to use design.

The fact that it takes 10 seconds to use is troublesome enough in a pvp situation because you'd have to be bold to stand still for 10 seconds on vector in the middle of nowhere, let alone in a pvp situation were people can easily attack you.  Can we at least come to a comprimise with it's range?  How about 8-10 meters?  This at least give the entire server of Vector a chance(low chance, but still a chance) to use this tool in a pvp situation.

As far as not wanting to get scanned without a dialog box, I think a /scanon and a /scanoff command that dumps the results into the area system log should be enough to make the majority of people happy.  /scanoff will block all incoming scans, while /scanon will allow anyone to scan you.  Make it so that you have a 1 to 5 minute reuse timer for the /scanon command but no reuse timer for the /scanoff command, to eliminate or greatly reduce spam and still allow you to block incoming scans at the drop of a hat.  In light of this, I also believe that everyone should be /scanon when they first jack in.  What about making it so that only a certain person can scan you?  Kind of like trying to send a /tell to someone.  Just type:  /scanon -=Dude=- and now, only dude can scan you till you close the scanning channel.

As far as the animation goes, I beleive Frog needs to watch more Star Trek for the animation.  Also add a sort of ping looking effect. Kind of like what I have below.

x = target

o = person using the tool

x)) )       )o

Any comments?

Message Edited by cantido on 05-16-2006 06:12 AM

Candido, this tool was NEVER ment to be used in PVP.  Hence the reason for the short range.  It was ment for duels.

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machete wrote:
Candido, this tool was NEVER ment to be used in PVP.  Hence the reason for the short range.  It was ment for duels.

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Frog says harder to use in PVP, he's never said impossible.  I'm trying to defend Vector's usability of this tool so that we have a just as much reason to use it as the non hostile servers.  I don't think most of you from other servers understand is that if you want to test your loadout on vector, you really don't need a duel for that, all you need is to run down to mara C and see how long it takes for another Org to send you running with your tail between your legs.  If your satisfied with the results, stick to that loadout, if not, rinse, reapply, and repeat until you are satisfied.

This tool is not intended for PvP use. If you can use it in PvP, kudos
to you, especially with the new use requirements I've set up on it:



Range: 1 meter

Use Time: 2 seconds

User cannot be stealthed

Target must be sitting



The primary use of this tool is to make it easier to verify duels and
tournaments, particularly with the Org Abilities that are coming out.
Someone could have up to two passive Org abilities running on them,
which can't be verified as cleared by the suicide/rez technique, and
wouldn't be apparent from any sort of special effects. And even if it
weren't for the new abilities, it's kind of annoying to have to use
that technique to prove you don't have any buffs going, IMO.



All of the servers can have as many tournaments and duels as they want
to - in fact one of the biggest tournaments I've ever seen was the one
organized on Vector a while back, I think by ManatikLuniak?



Anyhow, bottom line: if you want a tool that's usable in PvP, then this is not the droid you are looking for.

nope styles has to do with the persons loadout and thats not fair, people work hard on those



yeah that will be a great tool



kudos to you mate



also is it gonna appear in system chat for us or for everyone?

In Ultima Online we had a nice system that would tell you what someone's strength, intelligence, and dexterity were through sizing them up. This helped you to tell what your chances were against them. This allowed you to avoid fights or pick them.

Maybe if the Device told us what they were weak against, it would help? But I could see alot of people griping about this as it's so easy to change your loadout in this game. Maybe, instead, it should just tell you what buffs the person had so that the chickensh*t people can be called out for what they really are...

With proof!

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HCFrog wrote:
This tool is not intended for PvP use. If you can use it in PvP, kudos to you, especially with the new use requirements I've set up on it:

Range: 1 meter
Use Time: 2 seconds
User cannot be stealthed
Target must be sitting

The primary use of this tool is to make it easier to verify duels and tournaments, particularly with the Org Abilities that are coming out. Someone could have up to two passive Org abilities running on them, which can't be verified as cleared by the suicide/rez technique, and wouldn't be apparent from any sort of special effects. And even if it weren't for the new abilities, it's kind of annoying to have to use that technique to prove you don't have any buffs going, IMO.

All of the servers can have as many tournaments and duels as they want to - in fact one of the biggest tournaments I've ever seen was the one organized on Vector a while back, I think by ManatikLuniak?

Anyhow, bottom line: if you want a tool that's usable in PvP, then this is not the droid you are looking for.

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Then when are we going to get a PvP tool?  Because this tool should be made FOR PVP!!!  If it can be used for PvP then it can be used for Tournements/Duels.  This is kind of dumb in my opinion if you have a tool that can't be used for PvP.  It seems that Vector always has been shafted and always will be. 

Message Edited by Frink14 on 05-16-2006 07:48 PM

Again, for those of you who do not understand what this tool is for...


This tool is made for TOURNAMENTS and DUELS to make sure the contestants loadouts are legit, and they are not buffed or using any boosters or pills.  This tool is NOT MENT FOR PVP.  For those that insist that this should be used for PVP, please start another thread in the development roundtable thread not here.

 So this just went away?