The Other Side of the Looking Glass - December 23, 2005

I have to admit i like the new hotbar (though i have to say the buff bar looks a little... out of place and cheesy like it is connecting the 2 hotbars, cant it just be a vertical bar at the side?) but like MM and others, im still watching our current combat system but with a couple of new animations and a new UI...

The main thing i was looking for in CR2.0 was the removal of zero sum... this is still taking turns, this is still CR1.0...

Also another major point brought up was that they were trying to streamline the opponent 'getting up' as much as possible, apparently we wouldnt be standing around in a cool pose waiting for our opponent to get to their feet but again this is exactly what i see.

Not trying to sound harsh or get the devs down its just my input

Message Edited by cloudwol on 12-24-2005 01:12 AM

Message Edited by lithium on 12-23-2005 08:54 PM

I have to agree with MoKap: "The devs said they wanted to make interlock faster, but they've added two more animations for the power and speed attacks, which takes it last longer.  It basically looks exactly like the system we have now, except now with no way to tell what your rolls are."

One thing like is seeing my rolls...and how much I outrolled someone, vice versa.  Especially to find out if that person is buffed or not. 

About the attacks...they seem the same to me...a bunch of punches and kicks that take up the same amount of time.

I also have to agree with Betaprimus...why aren't these bugs being fixed?  The evade bug from the NPC's and the CRASHING every 10 minutes or so...and of course not to mention exploits still out there...

-Maz-

Maybe I missed something..but in the video..he used regular hotbars and switched back and forth..in the pictures..it has two bars..one showing abilities....one showing buffs ..... so...what is the difference?.....as far as the action...they put the attacks into the hotbars.....God knows...I don't have enough room in my hotbars for all the abilities without adding the normal attacks.....I realize this was a taste...what is better with the hotbars...?...and if we can only get excited about the **bleep** baseball hat?...  which has been half of the posts on this topic...

Yo,

Before I even start, I want to say, I'm not trying to rag on the devs. or anyone involved with the current "upgrades" that our game is going through. This is just simply my take on things. I would like to applaud the devs. for recognizing that the combat system in this game does need attention and that they are attempting to fix the known problems. However, everything that I have read and seen in regards to Combat 2.0, has left a very bad taste in my mouth. Also, note that my opinions expressed in THIS article are completely based on the media shown in this edition of "The Other Side of the Looking Glass". So hopfully this just wasn't the best first, "solid" piece of Combat 2.0 to be shown and that my feelings are totally wrong about what I got from the media given so far. :smileytongue:

Let's start with the "Concept" screen shots. The idea of adding a 2nd hotbar, awesome idea. This helps my concerns of having to add the "normal" combat maneuvers to my hotbar. I for one (and I'm sure, I'm not alone here) do not have enough hotbar space as things are now, just to fit my abilities and macros in. Not to mention if I had to take up atleast another 5 whole spaces for moves that are already implemented into the game perfectly fine. I don't see why we can't just have that little "side hotbar" that pops up when you enter interlock, become a static image and part of the overall HUD. I do hate how, when you have to many buffs and debuffs active at once they are hidden by the "Pop-up Combat UI". But, I think a better and easier way to fix that, is to just move the location of where your buffs and debuffs are displayed. For example, directly to the right of the hotbar, in that huge empty space between my hotbar and my character info. Another concern I have with the "dual hotbar" is that, those screens are labeled, "concept" screens. Where as the video file says it is Combat 2.0 footage. No where in that video did I see a 2nd hotbar. So is the "dual hotbar" idea being implemented into Combat 2.0 or is it just concept? I also like to use the "Shift + Numkey" shortcut for changing hotbars on the fly. What is the shortcut for changing your secondary hotbars going to be? "Shift + Alt + Numkey"? Sounds like a lot to be worrying about in the midst of combat....

Next, I would like to address some concerns I have with the Combat 2.0 video footage. Mainly the fact that this video showcased nothing new except a cleaner "looking" UI and combat animations. Overall I would say the interlock looked a little smoother and realistic, I don't know if it looked any faster. Also I noticed the use of our standard hotbar, only it was crammed with normal attacks in addition to your normal abilities. I noticed how many times you changed which hotbar you were using, during your short interlock sequence. Honestly, I almost NEVER change my hotbar during interlock, because 10 spaces is usually about enough room to fit all my main, "most often" used abilities for any of my "interlock" loadouts. I do not want to have to be constantly changing hotbars during a heated interlock in PvP. I also did not see the "dual hotbar" shown in the "concept" screenshots. I would like to think to myself, that since it's "concept" it will still be implemented into our QA release of Combat 2.0. Although, considering that the QA server and Combat 2.0 were supposed to be released yesterday and weren't, that makes me think that it will not be included. I hope you pushed back the release for reasons like implementing the "dual hotbars". Also someone stated in an earlier reply, that having the "normal" attacks as part of your hotbar, would make it so that we would no longer be able to use our directional keys to designate which "normal" attack we would like to use. That is a very minor concern, cause yes I know, I could just use number keys to choose a hotbar skill. I just for one like having my right hand choosing my normal attack and my left hand pumping out the special moves.

Now for my biggest concern with Combat 2.0 video footage shown. The HUGE lack of info given to the player. Yes, I agree that things like UI's and displays only clutter up the screen and make things less pretty, but I mean come on. I don't care how pretty my game looks while I'm trying to kill stuff. If I want pretty, I'm gonna hit "Ctrl + U" and remove everything from my screen and just watch or make a video file. When I'm in PvP or any type of combat, I want ALL the data and information I can possibly soak up, to give myself a better understanding of what my situation is and what my best choice to do next is going to be. In that video, obviously it does not show what your current attack VS. your opponents attack was or what either of you rolled. Sure I will know what they chose after they rail me with it. What good does that do me? I like to know what I'm about to get hit with. It lets me know what kind of states or damage I'm about to have inflicted upon me, which in turn helps me make a quicker, more planned out decision about what to do next. Should I ready up an antibiotic or health pill? Should I use one of my toughness enhancing abilities, because this move is about to lower my resistances? Should I call my teammates for help, cause I just got stunned and have become a helpless piece of prey? (lol) These are things that are going through my head every second of interlock and having the ability to efficiently plan ahead as much as I can taken from me after all this time... Well it doesn't make me happy, I can say that much.

Also how do I determine what style my opponent is using against me? Sure after a while of seeing all the animations, I will be able to determine what each style looks like, but for players who are new or do not play very often. It looks like they could be quite overwhelmed or feel confused on why certain things happen to them in interlock. I like to examine what types of attacks my enemy is using on me or try to see if they roll better with a certain one. It once again just helps the player to size up their situation. Also as previously said in one of the replies, I want to know how my opponent's overall rolls are to determine if they are buffed or not. I for one do not buff for duels and also like to keep PvP as fair as I can. If I duel someone and they beat me, how am I going to know if they were buffed or not? Just cause they outroll me almost every turn does not mean they were buffed. I can see MANY arguments starting already over that. If I know I'm being heavily outrolled in PvP, then I know I need to buff up in some manner to even stand a chance.

I'm also very disappointed that the video didn't even show the "Free Fire Melee", or "Damage Per Second", which are supposed to be the main points, not to mention the most "game altering" points of Combat 2.0. Altho, from what I gathered at the outset of the video, seeing the character outside of interlock and still having his normal attacks selectable, leads me to believe that you will always be able to use free fire melee. Which most definitly makes me concerned for the use of interlock in a PvP situation. Why would I want to make it so that I am immobilized and can only target and damage one opponent, when all of the other people around me can hit me, then turn, run over and hit my friend also?

I really don't want to sound so negative here. I just for one love the combat in MxO the way it currently is, even if it is broken. It is different from all other MMOs, very deep, and is very exciting in it's entirety. Other than all of my friends in this community, the combat is the ONLY thing that has kept me coming back and playing the game all this time. I do think some things are broken and need fixing, and/or tweaked. I'm just worried to many and quite possibly even the wrong things will be changed. I think a stronger focus on tweaking/fixing elements of the game rather than "re-inventing the wheel" of our combat system, would be better. As I have said many times before, as things stand, I'm not very optimistic about Combat 2.0. However I will definitly give it the benefit of the doubt and can't wait to try the real thing out for myself, before I pass final judgement on it.

To all of you developers, testers, programmers, and anyone else involved with MxO, enjoy your Holidays and time away from this HUGE project. I hope everyone gets some well deserved relaxation and has a joyful time celebrating whatever holiday they celebrate. :smileyhappy:

Happy Holidays to Everyone! :smileyvery-happy:

Peace!

Message Edited by Maverik770 on 12-24-2005 01:02 AM

Sigh....my shor reply is going to look so lame next to this huge essay....oh well.

Just was disapointed with the lack of the Melee Free-fire in the combat shown. Does look smother, but it looks exactly like what's in live, but with the odd new animation :/

I think the reason it appears to be zero-sum is the fact Walrus was taking on an NPC 3 levels lower...

Since, my understanding of the new combat system is that both opponents roll an attack and a defense.  Those rolls are compared, and if both opponents outroll eachother's defense, both hit.  However, the NPC wasn't outrolling walrus' defense rolls... so walrus was doing all the hitting.

Also, showing free-fire melee would probably have required another dev interlocking the NPC and walrus attacking free-fire style.  Probably not something that was plausable as a rush job on the video.

The hotbar is pure concept and won't be on the EPS release... the hope is to squeeze it in before CR2.0 is considered "live-ready".  Ultimately, it should and probably will be considered required for CR2.0 to go live.

Those worried about what your rolls are should still be able to see those numbers in the system messages.  Walrus had that hidden to show off the animations and better fluidness of interlock in general... and his snazzy hat.

All in all... it looks like CR 2.0 is going to take some getting used to... and possibly breathe some new life into the game... making combat more fun and unpredictable.

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Netizen wrote:

-reply to Maverik770

"What is the shortcut for changing your secondary hotbars going to be? Shift + Alt + Numkey?"

The UI concept art shows "alt+#" text on the second toolbar.

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My friends and I got this game for free at a gamespot.com convention and are in our first month with it. All of us have played many MMOs together and think MxO has a lot of potential. We are still on the fence about subscribing because of the many bugs, but the combat revision looks promising. I do have a few items on my wishlist for combat though.

- The ability to see buffs and debuffs on Team members. Although my friends and I use Ventrilo and communicate buff and heal requests vocally, it would help a lot if support characters could see this info.

This would be a really nice feature... but there's all sorts of UI considerations and implementing it could be a royal pain.

- A customizeable UI like World Of Warcraft. Although I have a Saitek Gaming Keyboard and can map just about any command or macro to my Command Pad my friends who do not have one are constantly complaining about the lack of UI options. The additional toolbar concept is a good start though and I like your idea of blinking ability buttons to show which ability has been queued up.

While this would be entertaining... with the way MxO is built, there's too much possiblity for exploits and cheating with giving players access to the control mechanisms.

- Lock down UI buttons. When running or kiting it is easier for me to click UI buttons than to move my hand off of the keyboard or mouse to reach numeric keys. However, it is very annoying when I accidently remove an ability from my toolbar when trying to click it. Other games now provide an option to lock down toolbar buttons so  that this does not happen.

This feature is actually in the game.  It's buried somewhere in the options, but it is there.  Sorry I can't be more precise... I just haven't looked for it in a while.

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While I'm at it I thought I would just add my number one request. I understand that it could not be possible until the new combat system is operational, but here it is. A better crafting system, sorry but some people are spoiled by SWG's. It would be great if a Coder could create an item then add enhancements to it. Imagine crews or factions running around wearing uniforms with the same look but cutomized to suit each person's abilities. I also think it would add a lot more diversity to player looks. Coders could also sell complete matching sets of clothing on the Marketplace, which would be really nice.

Sadly, this would require an overhaul of the game even more massive than CR 2.0.  The basic way the inventory/items system works is that each item has the buffs described along with the item itself.  Completely non-modular.  Making the system modular would require a complete rewrite of the entire inventory managment system... and much of the core combat engine that uses the item enhancements.

Message Edited by Cal on 12-24-2005 12:49 AM

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Danger_Frog1471 wrote:

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Cal wrote:
A couple guildmates and I just watched the video a couple of times, and honestly we're confused.


The Combat HUD was removed... ok. There's a big circle at the bottom that shows what you're fighting (like the Quest Location circle in Lineage II). That's it it seems. I can't understand what everyone's so exictied about, I simply don't see the difference.


With the hotbar screenshot, that's cool that we'll have two bars at once, I really missed that from pre-NGE SWG.

Seriously though... I don't see anything truly different, you just hid the combat spam.

Message Edited by Cal on 12-24-2005 12:49 AM

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are you missing everything...have you been reading the updates.....its the backgroud that they have been working on...ie its quicker......both people can attack or roll at once or anytime they feel.....is there anything i missed?....free fire.....you havent seen it yet......well i am more excited about this then i am about christmas and thats impressive....two thumbs up guys....keep up the hard work and i look forward to testing in jan 2006!!!

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1. The video still shows zero-sum combat.  Perhaps that's because the mob is 3 levels below the dev and is bugged (causing less than 100 dmg), or perhaps zero-sum doesn't mean what we've been told it means.  Walrus, could you please elaborate on this feature, or at least tell us why it's not apparent from the video?
   


2. Free-Fire Melee is also no where to be seen in this clip.  I realize that this footage was supposed to just show off the new Interlock UI, but it would be nice to have another 2,372,000 words or so showing off melee outside of IL
   


3. Double-hotbars...  /drool.  Double-hotness.  A few questions though.  How will this affect macros?  Will the second set of hotbars be simply numbered 11 through 20, or will there be another parameter to the /use command, e.g. "/use Slot#, Hotbar#, 1/2"?  Of course the former would be much easier, plus it wouldn't require us to redo existing macros.
   


4. "Alt+10"?  Perhaps "0" and "Alt+0" would be better labels for the 10th slot on corresponding toolbars.  Otherwise we'll see many "Hey, where's my '10' key?" posts :p

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UnholyNixon69 wrote:

mxo is going to hell.

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betaprimus wrote:

might sound sarcastic but its really the truth of many players, and pretty sure its on the developer's minds as well

HOW ABOUT FIXING SOME BUGS!?!?!?!?!

the game is eat up with the SAME bugs from way back in the beta, how about erradicating these bugs before possibly adding many more with a whole new combat system which most likely will add a whole hell of alot more bugs

I would so like to play the game for hours on end with out a crash to the desktop every 20 mins, or fight a mob for red frags and not have the entire area just go into evade

a new combat system might be a nice addition, but a bug free game would be 20,000 times better

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Well that's your opinion and i'm not saying that you're wrong, a bug free game would be nice...but it's fairly impossible to get rid of 100% of bugs when it's a live game. New updates bring new bugs. The dev's can only remove bugs that are reported, and that takes time too...so what if the new system brings more bugs, at least we have some development on making this one of the best MMORPG's on the market.

I agree the evade bug is annoying, but you just have to struggle with it until they eventually work out what's causing it. As for the fact that you're crashing to the desktop every twenty minutes (a slight exagerattion?) try upgrading your computer. The game crashed for me constantly until i updated my RAM and Graphics Card...now it runs as smooth as a walrus on ice!

A bug free game would be nice...but IMO i believe that new additions to the game...reworking the game into something better is more useful. We can get rid of bugs with every hotfix but this year is really make or break for the game so making it work and look better is probably the way to go!

Oh yeah! I love the new hotbar by the way...and the video was amazing...can't stop watching it, i think this is gonna be a hell of an update. Just didn't like how he knocked him to the floor and waited for him to get up. You should be able to pick them up and continue beating the living crap out of them! (Although maybe i'm just a violent SOB)

-Retro

Message Edited by FistsOfFury on 12-24-2005 02:45 PM

Message Edited by NeroByte on 12-24-2005 08:43 PM

actually I got 3 gigs of ddr 2700 ram

the crashes I am reffering to has to do with this game alone, if your actions are too great too quickly the game says F it, I am crashing

its a long standing bug in the game

now I can be in game for 12 hours if I want to just stay on doing nothing, get into heavy action with fast movement the game will crash, long standing bug, been in game forever

theres many other bugs that have been in the game... forever,  litterally the only bug in the game that has EVER been fixed is taking a hardline and not ending up naked, that is the only bug in the game to ever been fixed, all the other bugs from way back IN THE BETA ARE STILL IN THE GAME!!!!

all mmos have bugs, but most do not have the SAME bugs from the early beta still in the game a year after the **bleep** launch

not saying the devs should stop all new content (which again is what exactly?) and just fix bugs, but *CENSORED* they have got to at least make an attempt to fix some of these old *CENSORED* bugs, if you really get into mxo and start digging into what bugs are still in game, and how they have been "forgotten" you would see the truth, and that truth is that mxo is some half assed mmo

before you respond, try recall team member in downtown, go on try it

the freaking ability is not even complete yet, and its already in game

you got useful abilties already in the game that are completely useless if you want to use them outside of the 33% part that actually works, the hell with the other 66% of the uses of the ability, those are not even freaking coded yet

Nice video and screens, i'm impressed .Judging by SOE's upgrade to certain games i was kinda sweating about this one. The only problem is that it leaves alot of questions in my mind. Although i only have one;

The question:

Considering Walrus was 3 levels higher than the Mob/NPC he was fighting, why did it take so long to kill him?

This of course is not questioning your skills or your loadout, but if it takes that amount of time to kill just one of them, it leads onto other things (such as how long will it take to level up, pandora's box timer limit's etc...).

I'm not saying this (CU 2.0) is unwelcomed but i'm very curious to know how steep the grind is going to be for the redpills that have not reached lvl 50 yet? Yes i'm level 50 and a returning player (well i never left because i forgot to cancel my subs lol), i'm thinking about the future of MxO and new players who once they get past the magic of the game, think "f this i'm sick of this grind".

Regards

Jiinx

Viral Vendetta (ignore the sig it's an old one)

I´d say it looks promising. It doesn´t show that much i admit. But once we get into the QA and get a feel for it I beleive that it will be really cool stuff. And most of all.. It´s a QA server. We can post our bug reports and thoughts about it. So even though the path is set up, we as a community still can change how it will act.

/WaVeShifT