The Other Side of the Looking Glass - December 23, 2005

I agree with Midori. I'm not seeing any 0 sum combat, and aside from
the attack buttons being placed in the hotbar (which I don't
particularly like), it doesn't really look all that different.



I'm not foretelling doom and gloom...I'm still REALLY looking forward
to this update. I just had hoped to see examples of some of the real
meaty changes to the combat system when I saw they had posted a video.

OK, I hate to HAVE to be the voice of reason (well, one of them), but here goes:

1- Let's just make this as clear as possible - zero-sum means that one player wins and the other loses in every round, ie. what's trying to be done for CR2.0 is REMOVE zero-sum, not add it. I know, one person made a mistake and everyone went after his/her words, but let's stop. The idea is to remove zero-sum.

2- I was as disappointed as everyone by zero-sum still being shown, but it might not have been fully introduced yet, or might not be stable, or might've been deactivated for repairs in the build Walrus took the video from, or the rolls might've been unlucky that way. We don't know what's happening, so we'll just have to wait for their saying.. or the playtest server, whichever comes first.

3- Whoever (and I'm noticing many hands up on that one) thought they were completely revamping the animations and abilities, you're in for a sore disappointment. Worse yet, you have nobody to blame for yourself, as I personally figured there wouldn't be that much new stuff in that area in CR2.0 from the time they mentioned they were tweaking the animations in IL to fit the new design. Maybe they'll add some new stuff as well, just don't get your hopes up on there being lots of new stuff. (PS: I'm also not sure how non-zero-sum combat will work without new animations.. if it's something like how an NPC gives us damage when he simply blocks our opening attack, there's some criticism from my part coming when the playtest server opens).

4- I can't stress this one more (heck, I shouldn't have to even say it, it's been said enough already) - the development team is dividided in groups, each with their own separate responsibilities. When they come up with new designs, new UI, even Christmas stuff, it has NO interference on what the dev team is doing about the existing bugs, and that's because each of those goes to a different team! The analists go after the bugs, the programming team solves them, the creatives do the concepts and UI and the engineers come up with new designs (design in the system sense, not the visual one.. as in designing an aspect of the system). They're all different teams! (Oh, and I've been here since Oct'04, and everyone around here knows LOTS of stuff were fixed even before beta ending -including the clothing bug you mentioned-. So, either you're purposefully trying to be extremely dramatic - and succeeding at it-, or you just weren't there.)

5- I also don't like that much the space the combat tactics occupy. Worse, it doesn't make that much sense to have it there since, with the exception of changing the starting combat tactic you have active, those 5 slots are useless everytime you're not ILing. And even worse, with so many IL-less (as in those who can't or have no need to IL)disciplines in-game and the new-coming ability to melee off IL, the uselessness of those 5 slots only increases. (Oh, and seeing as pointing problems without offering possible solutions is, even if helpful -since you get to know we feel there's a problem-, mostly pointless, I suggest that you get something like a tactics UI, for instance, under our character's foto area. That UI would be hide-able and would automatically appear in IL if it was hiding at that moment).

6- Regarding the speed, I LOVE the way it's right now. Much more interesting, both in the visual field, since it's more acting and less posing, and in the gameplay field, where you need to make quick decisions. It starts to better resemble the environment the Matrix movies presented us with. And while Super-Burly-Brawl-like fighting would be wonderful to see, it'd require MUCH more time to be done effectively, if at all possible. Besides, let's all remember that we're FAR below the abilities Neo and Smith possessed at that time, so reflexes that quick would actually be Matrix-unrealistic.

Greetings,
- WarIock

PS: Happy Holidays everyone
PS2: AFAI am concerned, great job so far to the MxO devs. And grats to SOE for surprising me on the positive side so far. Keep up the good work.

Hah! I knew Walrus preferred Syntax.



That is one smokin' hot hotbar! I love it.



An interesting video too--I like how combat is actually visible though I didn't see too many changes to how it functioned...

After watching the video for the millionth time , It seems to me that regular tactics have been sped up, while special attacks still remain the same.  I don't think this has been pointed out in this thread, but does it seem that way to anyone?

I ran the video at the part where Walrus does Suicidal Butterfly on one monitor, and actually performed Suicidal Butterfly in-game on my other monitor.  The animation transitions from the beginning of Suicidal Butterfly to the beginning of the next attack were virtually identical, and actual length was nearly the same.  Maybe they haven't adjusted timings for specials (I hope).  But, we'll have to wait and see.

But I can definitely tell that regular tactics have been sped up greatly.  Good work on that.

Message Edited by ShadowSK on 12-26-2005 01:21 AM

Kudos to Walrus on the video and pics ive been watching the
video over
and over and trying to gain as much as I can from what little it offers
ive noticed yes it does seem to be like the old combat system but I
also noticed somthing different when refering it to the 0 sum combat,
in the video Walrus interlocks the npc then starts off with power
tactics during the second attack with power tactics he only shoots the
guy twice (rather then the usual 3 hits like normal power tact) and
then the NPC hits back with two hits of his own after the NPC strikes
back the damage numbers showed up on both fighters, I'm not sure if
this
has is the anti-0 sum in action or somthing of the sort since the the
other attacks have two more animations with them maybey the attacker
can hit say 5 times with his speed tactics but fail to hit again and
the other player hits back with two of his own strikes causing the
player to do less base damage in his attacks or somthing of the sort,
anyway good video although it does feel similar but then again we still
have a long road ahead of us to test the new system out and work out
the chinks in CR2.0's armor.

Message Edited by Ubershank on 12-26-2005 03:36 AM

also to those of u who think the #1 ability on the screenie of the
Hotbar is flight I doubt it would be MxO color codes abilities based on
its nature for example Red = Attack ability (does damage and what not)
Yellow = Upgrade (either self or others) Purple = Downgrade (the basis
of this attack is to downgrade the opponent damage is a secondary
factor) Green = Healing ability, the ability is colored Red this means
it is an attack of some sort but we dont know for sure its still good
to hope as I'm really curious as what this ability is

Also note if you watch the video carefully and slow it down you notice
that when Walrus selects Kung-fu there is a host of new Upgrades that
it has on it as it no longer just provides "Kung-fu" but other things
too, also when he selects his special abilities it shows in the details
a DPS number: Piston kicks Damage: Melee DPS (100) Suicidal Butterfly
Damage: Melee DPS (25) Pistol Barrage: Ranged DPS (1. Well thats all
the data I could come up with after watching the video atleast a
thousand times but anyway I hope this info can shed new light on the
upcoming revision and put some of our doubts to rest.



P.S. This is after all a new thing thats in testing and most of us beta
players should know better by now that when somthing new comes along it
takes extensive testing and player feed back to smooth out all the
wrinkles and try to get what ever it is working properly so I would
hope most folks would cool it on the negativity of course productive
critisism would be apreciated but dont go bananas over a video that
shows very little of what we should expect to see in the coming weeks
especialy since it is still in testing and is not ready for Live
servers just yet that means there is still tons of improvments that can
be made.

Am intrigued what the logo on the back of the shirt was thou ?

What your seeing is the beta logo.  Everyone who played during beta got a full set of beta clothing.

Well everyone got a standard set of beta clothing, some people got a full outfit which included a jacket as well.

Jeffers

Hey Walrus!

One of these days I was gonna PM you and offer to let you come mission with the DoE, but it seems you've got a handle on things as it is. *Grin*

I was really afraid of the second combat revision, but it doesn't look so bad now, time will tell. I hope your poor testing RSI didn't get hit on by Clunk, he's rather infamous for that at this point...

Anyway, happy holidays. /salute

P.S. Though you may be Zion, come join the Machines! We have better candy... really.

-AlicethePattern, Head Archivist, Mega City Department of Energy

is the beta clothing like the eye jacket I have ?  ( well I have the code for it but wasn't able to use it in time unfortunatly !)  would love to know the stats on what the eye jacket did for you too if anybody knows them ?

---

Harl-E-quin wrote:
is the beta clothing like the eye jacket I have ?  ( well I have the code for it but wasn't able to use it in time unfortunatly !)  would love to know the stats on what the eye jacket did for you too if anybody knows them ?

---

The Burning Eye Trench was to my knowledge the only article of clothing from a promotional code, which I believe was from PCGamer magazine. It looks pretty cool, but it has no buffs.

Also, the beta clothing is different then that.

I guess we just have to wait and see for QA, but aside from removing zero-sum (which we really didn't get to see), or balance issues that have supposedly been fixed (which we didn't get to see), new animations outside of extending the amount of blows per type of attack (which is not really a new animation), and I could go a few more...



From that video...it just doesn't seem like much was done with the CR2.0, aside from removing our Combat HUD, and taking up a few more spaces in our hotbars... Sure there is probably balancing issues that were addressed, and zero-sum was supposed to be removed.

But one thing I cared about more than anything with this CR2.0 was the fighting. The fighting doesn't seem any more fluid to me, because I ran the video while fighting in IL ingame (the current system) and the fighting was practically identical, minus the HUD. The rolls are still happening, and the pauses are still there, it's just we can't see the rolls anymore.



We will have free-fire melee, which probably won't be appealing because the animations will be typical MMO "hack and slash," and interlock is not any more impressive, and bullet time has yet to be seen...



Hate to say it, but the CR2.0 is a make it or break it for me...

Message Edited by {SoG}Esky on 12-30-2005 01:36 AM

Ok right away, even before i read anyone elses posts, im giving my first impression.

A: the concept for the combat hud looked cool, but also complex. You weren't using it in the video, and it seems our combat hud has been removed.

B: The video. System was not up. We couldn't see what was going on. The animations looked smoother, but there was no way to tell the rolls. I mean, i suppose you don't need to see them. As long as one person wins, and rolls are behind the scenes, but it was still nice, and i will miss seeing if im going to win or being able to get screenies of "high rolls". I'm absolutley hating the removal of the combat hud. Having speed, power, grab, block, and run (was block even in there..? im not sure) in your hotbar seems like a waste. I never have enough hotbar room as it is, without having another 5 buttons to fill it up. And, i'll have to change the hotbar based on those 5 icons, or be restricted by having to put them on multiple hotbars so i don't have to click 5 times to reach them.

Overall: I like the animations, but it seems like you just released a bait to keep people interested. You may be making progress, and the animations looked better, but why'd you have to remove the combat hud? Why make it even harder for people who don't just throw on a tree and leave it at that to have a hotbar? some of my loads require two hotbars to function as it is... . In the end, i don't like the way this is going, but i'll have to test it, or find out more info, before i can make up my mind.

Edit: I definately agree with eskys post, just above ^

Message Edited by Radar6590 on 12-30-2005 11:41 AM

Well the Beta clothing set wasn't complete - there was no hat. I'm thinking Walrus is wearing the Beta Cap in the movie

Looks sweet anyway, it'll be fun to see the difference in PvP combat.

Ohh!,  no beta-cap :smileytongue:

but good movie

Ok I looked at the video and i noticed that it does show a bug in the combat.
Right at the very begining as the two combatants are closing and both stop.
TheWalrus tries to attack and is told "You Cannot See Your Target", but if you
notice the target is able to see and fire at him.  Now I will need to check it out
more to see if the bug is actually there when they open the test server.

First impressions
Well without the combat HUD at least some of the combat icons won't be
blocked out like they were before.  Noticed another bug in that the Speed gun
attack is used yet the off-balance state was shown on the target.

Having the standard attacks taking up hotbar space is not good.  I keep all
my special there and don't like to switch back and forth between hotbars.
Now if we can show 2 hotbars up at once it may work, but with multiple attack
skills loaded then it could still take up too much space.  The blinking to show the
next attack is ok, but what happens if it is a special state (Dazed etc) attack
and the special state wears off on the opponents?

Message Edited by DelstarDotstar on 01-03-2006 03:27 PM

I know this would take a lot of work on a lot of the interlock animations, but I think that a great way to fix the problem with the fights stopping so one person can get back up again after being knocked down would be to make it so that, unless it was a killing blow or a skill like Bulldog, when someone is knocked down in interlock they catch themselves and jump back up immediately. I think Combat would look a lot cooler with that added.

Alright, alright, alright. Enough about the two hotbar and "How is it going to work", I don't know if anyone said this, yet, because I'm NOT going to read 12 pages, but apparently, none of you looked closely enough at the images. If you notice, the second hotbar has the numbers, but with AL in front of them, which PROBABLY means that we'll press ALT+1-0 for the second bar.

It's common sense, people. They're not going to make us click them all, and nor are they going to make two functions share a button. Of COURSE they're going to add a key infront of the numbers, shesh. :smileytongue:

-Ambs

yeah i notice it also... im jest worry that the alt number is for the chat system change... to change faction chat to area chat...