My first 50 kill on Syntax....And as a level 31.
Enjoyed the event 
[9.2.3] Now he's mad - Syntax - 1/24/08
93 posts · 2008-01-25 19:37:01 to 2008-02-07 17:07:52
All I ever see are humans bickering over who's right and who's not. None of you are right, none of you are wrong. You all bicker like children, then insult the other by calling THEM a child. Instead, why don't we work together again against common enemies.. but no. That's too much. Too many 'what if' factors.
Vinia wrote:
The problem is, as good as having the support of Machinists sounds, you guys aren't the real threat in this war, the Machine is. Machinist support is one thing, but if the Machine still tells the lot of you to kill us, it's time for you guys to fight, regardless.
In war, even if the troops want the fighting to end, the generals' orders still stand. That is part of why none of us ever really win.
None of us are Neo either, and the situation that was before Neo and the Machine isn't the same situation that we face. If I'm not mistaken, the Machine had just as much to lose as Zion did at that point in time. This isn't necessarily the case now. Now if that happens to change at some point then we'll see.
Pyraci wrote:Like I told Vinia, some Machinist think that the Machine will stop fighting us if we play nice, but there is no evidence that this is the case, and there is no word from the Machine that there is a clause for ending this war. When the Machine wants the war to end, it'll make those terms clear.Neo had no evidence that the Machines would listen to his proposal, he had no word from the Machines that there may be a clause, they didn't make terms clear before their meeting. He did what he did because he believed in it. This is an opportunity, an opportunity to show the Machines that we can put hostilities aside and work together once more and I would consider any Zionite who wants peace a fool if they did not at least attempt to take advantage of the opportunity. They should know that they would get support from any Machinist who desires peace, something that Neo never had.
The problem is, as good as having the support of Machinists sounds, you guys aren't the real threat in this war, the Machine is. Machinist support is one thing, but if the Machine still tells the lot of you to kill us, it's time for you guys to fight, regardless.
In war, even if the troops want the fighting to end, the generals' orders still stand. That is part of why none of us ever really win.
None of us are Neo either, and the situation that was before Neo and the Machine isn't the same situation that we face. If I'm not mistaken, the Machine had just as much to lose as Zion did at that point in time. This isn't necessarily the case now. Now if that happens to change at some point then we'll see.
Neoteny is in the right.
The best outcome would be a peaceful and free lifestyle for every man, machine and program. I know it's possible - it's a goal I've always worked toward. But we're at war now and if I see the chance to destroy the machines, even at the cost of all those bluepills, I'm not going to hesitate.
The best outcome would be a peaceful and free lifestyle for every man, machine and program. I know it's possible - it's a goal I've always worked toward. But we're at war now and if I see the chance to destroy the machines, even at the cost of all those bluepills, I'm not going to hesitate.
GypsyJuggler wrote:
But we're at war now and if I see the chance to destroy the machines, even at the cost of all those bluepills, I'm not going to hesitate.
Spoken like a true fanatic.
Illyria
Illyria22 wrote:
GypsyJuggler wrote:Pwn'dBut we're at war now and if I see the chance to destroy the machines, even at the cost of all those bluepills, I'm not going to hesitate.
Spoken like a true fanatic.Illyria
Illyria22 wrote:
GypsyJuggler wrote:Oh I'm quite happy to cooperate on equal terms but the machines have shown that 'it's their way or the highway' in which case I'd much rather choose destruction over slavery. I can see what you've chosen.But we're at war now and if I see the chance to destroy the machines, even at the cost of all those bluepills, I'm not going to hesitate.Spoken like a true fanatic.
Killing billions (or millions) of humans because they're not living the way you want them to is the equivalent of jihad.
Illyria
Not because of how they live but because of who is living off them.
Could you imagine living your entire life with you back covered in leeches?
If the only way to destroy a parasite is to kill the host then the host must be destroyed.
Could you imagine living your entire life with you back covered in leeches?
If the only way to destroy a parasite is to kill the host then the host must be destroyed.
GypsyJuggler wrote:
So in order to kill the host, you're willing to scarafice billions of innocent bluepuills, bluepills who hasn't do anything to you, just so you, EPN and Zion can relive the glory days when man was the dominant spieces? Well I got bad news on that front, we're not, the machines pwned us at the first Man/Machine war, they took us over their lap and gave us a good spanking. Get it through your head Zion, and EPN we are not the dominant spieces on this planet anymore, the machines are.
Time to realize that.
Not because of how they live but because of who is living off them.
Could you imagine living your entire life with you back covered in leeches?
If the only way to destroy a parasite is to kill the host then the host must be destroyed.
So in order to kill the host, you're willing to scarafice billions of innocent bluepuills, bluepills who hasn't do anything to you, just so you, EPN and Zion can relive the glory days when man was the dominant spieces? Well I got bad news on that front, we're not, the machines pwned us at the first Man/Machine war, they took us over their lap and gave us a good spanking. Get it through your head Zion, and EPN we are not the dominant spieces on this planet anymore, the machines are.
Time to realize that.
You might like this idea but I do not.
I'd rather Mankind continued to live which means a chance to live with the Machines as equals the same way that the Machines wanted to live with Humankind as equals. We see your true colours though, something along the lines of killing the patient to cure the disease? Who are you to make the decision for Mankind?
That method has been proven effective against rather a lot of diseases.
I make no decisions for mankind, I make them for myself.
I make no decisions for mankind, I make them for myself.
GypsyJuggler wrote:
A good doctor would try to save the patient instead of killing it to get rid of the disease.
That method has been proven effective against rather a lot of diseases.
I make no decisions for mankind, I make them for myself.
A good doctor would try to save the patient instead of killing it to get rid of the disease.
MetaLogic wrote:
A good doctor would try to save the patient instead of killing it to get rid of the disease.GypsyJuggler wrote:
If the only way to destroy a parasite is to kill the host then the host must be destroyed.Please pay attention.
Vinia wrote:
- DD
I'd rather Mankind continued to live which means a chance to live with the Machines as equals the same way that the Machines wanted to live with Humankind as equals.I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. The Master / Slave, Watchman / Prisoner, Farmer / Cattle relationship does clearly show that the Machines do not think of us as equals and probably never will.
- DD
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.I'd rather Mankind continued to live which means a chance to live with the Machines as equals the same way that the Machines wanted to live with Humankind as equals.I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. The Master / Slave, Watchman / Prisoner, Farmer / Cattle relationship does clearly show that the Machines do not think of us as equals and probably never will.
- DD
GypsyJuggler wrote:
MetaLogic wrote:Even if the host can live perfectly well with the parasite? You'd still kill them? The Machines are not parasites, they have a symbiotic relationship with the Humans in the pods, both depending on each other.A good doctor would try to save the patient instead of killing it to get rid of the disease.GypsyJuggler wrote:If the only way to destroy a parasite is to kill the host then the host must be destroyed.Please pay attention.
Vinia wrote:
Farmer/Cattle - The vast majority of the human race that we know of are grown, not born naturally.
Watchman/Prisoner - At this point in the ballgame, it keeps those that want out of the system in because of it's grudge with Zion, and shows no evidence of allowing them to leave without interference.
Master/Slave - It created it's little Cypherite social experiment when the avatar of Morpheus got out of line and forced minds out of it's system, and denied direct involvement behind it until it was found out. And while we're on the subject, it overwrote the mind of a redpill, and brainwashed the lie of reinsertion into his head.
All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
GoDGiVeR wrote:It may very well be, but his analogy is the truth. And as I have stated before, some of us choose to take the truth as the authority, instead of the authority as truth.Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.I'd rather Mankind continued to live which means a chance to live with the Machines as equals the same way that the Machines wanted to live with Humankind as equals.I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. The Master / Slave, Watchman / Prisoner, Farmer / Cattle relationship does clearly show that the Machines do not think of us as equals and probably never will.
- DD
Farmer/Cattle - The vast majority of the human race that we know of are grown, not born naturally.
Watchman/Prisoner - At this point in the ballgame, it keeps those that want out of the system in because of it's grudge with Zion, and shows no evidence of allowing them to leave without interference.
Master/Slave - It created it's little Cypherite social experiment when the avatar of Morpheus got out of line and forced minds out of it's system, and denied direct involvement behind it until it was found out. And while we're on the subject, it overwrote the mind of a redpill, and brainwashed the lie of reinsertion into his head.
All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
Of course we're not equals. From the moment the two races came to exist together they have only ever known a sub/dom relationship. Human beings taught the Machines that we are not equals from the get-go. They were our servants and laborers. When they tried to be equal, we waged war. Either the Machines continue to control or they will be controlled. The cycle is vicious and could be endless.
As machinists, we are trying to impress upon the Machines that equality can be achieved. However, it's like trying to referee a schoolyard fight between two bullies each seeking to keep their position as king of the mountain. It isn't an easy job but you don't get anywhere by quitting, right?
Pyraci wrote:
The Machines way is "Do or die", though this is put very bluntly. There is no such thing as retirement. If you don't do as they want, in the end, they are your enemies and playing along all day is not what people do.
Though there are "neutral factions" you can hear teeth surfaces rubbing at each other when mentioning them to Machines. Life is a binary choice, there is no third party.
Vinia wrote:GoDGiVeR wrote:It may very well be, but his analogy is the truth. And as I have stated before, some of us choose to take the truth as the authority, instead of the authority as truth.Vinia wrote:It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.I'd rather Mankind continued to live which means a chance to live with the Machines as equals the same way that the Machines wanted to live with Humankind as equals.I'm sorry, but that's not true at all. The Master / Slave, Watchman / Prisoner, Farmer / Cattle relationship does clearly show that the Machines do not think of us as equals and probably never will.
- DD
Farmer/Cattle - The vast majority of the human race that we know of are grown, not born naturally.
Watchman/Prisoner - At this point in the ballgame, it keeps those that want out of the system in because of it's grudge with Zion, and shows no evidence of allowing them to leave without interference.
Master/Slave - It created it's little Cypherite social experiment when the avatar of Morpheus got out of line and forced minds out of it's system, and denied direct involvement behind it until it was found out. And while we're on the subject, it overwrote the mind of a redpill, and brainwashed the lie of reinsertion into his head.
All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
The Machines way is "Do or die", though this is put very bluntly. There is no such thing as retirement. If you don't do as they want, in the end, they are your enemies and playing along all day is not what people do.
Though there are "neutral factions" you can hear teeth surfaces rubbing at each other when mentioning them to Machines. Life is a binary choice, there is no third party.
Garu wrote:
Garu wrote:
Neither do Zionites, nor EPNs. Also it seems that most Merovingians can't be taken into account either.
As bad as it sounds, the only third party in existance, which is known to us, is the Intruder. Though, it's doubtful that he could fulfill the job of a referee.
- DD
Referees can only be "neutral third parties". I hope you don't refer to yourself and your party.[...] referee [...]. It isn't an easy job but you don't get anywhere by quitting, right?
Garu wrote:
Since you said you want to kiss their metal asses, Machinists clearly don't fit into that job, I fear.As machinists, we are trying to impress upon the Machines that equality can be achieved.
Neither do Zionites, nor EPNs. Also it seems that most Merovingians can't be taken into account either.
As bad as it sounds, the only third party in existance, which is known to us, is the Intruder. Though, it's doubtful that he could fulfill the job of a referee.
- DD
Pyraci wrote:
Vinia wrote:You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
Vinia wrote:
Pyraci wrote:Vinia wrote:You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
When has the word of a Machinist ever helped in swaying the agenda of the machine? Might I remind you of your attempt at ridding yourself of the Cypherites before the war and how well that went over?
Allow me to put you in your place. You are a foot solider. That is all. When there is a job that a program can not do or the system is low on resources you are the ones that get called to do it. You are not politicians, or negotiators, or leaders. You are simply soldiers. Your word carries no weight in this war and any peace will not be brought on because of how the machine sees you. For now you are simply a needed accessory to help control and protect the system as its "war" has grown much larger then before the truce.
Vinia wrote:
Sarcasm aside, Machinists can justify their side of things like everyone else, but at the end of the day, that "relationship" still stands, if not strengthened by the co-dependence between man and machine. Machinists may have "privileges", but they aren't any more "free" than the rest of us. But like Gami said, you all are soldiers like the rest of us. Nothing more.
Pyraci wrote:Oh that's it! Sign me up! As a matter of fact, I'm gonna tell Zion that we all need to drop our weapons and take applications so we can help the righteous and powerful Machine work towards a brighter future for all of us. Oh, wait... the Machine kills us on sight, tells the sleeping population that we are terrorists and a threat to their lie, and tells Machinists to do the same. Hmm... probably not a good idea after all...Vinia wrote:You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.
Sarcasm aside, Machinists can justify their side of things like everyone else, but at the end of the day, that "relationship" still stands, if not strengthened by the co-dependence between man and machine. Machinists may have "privileges", but they aren't any more "free" than the rest of us. But like Gami said, you all are soldiers like the rest of us. Nothing more.
GamiSB wrote:
Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary. The Machines approached us at the beginning of the truce because humans dealing with humans in a "peaceful" way is easier than Machine - Human. The reason why they still keep you is because Zion is still there. If they abondoned you and the war stopped (without all Zion crushed), the fact that they abondoned their tools would make a second coming of their "peaceful intentions" rather ... doubtful.
Cypherites. They would have been abondoned already by the Machines were it not for their desperation towards Zions downfall.
You can guess what happens when they don't need you anymore. There is no retirement.
Also on a sidenote: Gami, you are a soldier as well, but in contrast to the Machines, Zion would not "deal with us".
Vinia wrote:Pyraci wrote:Vinia wrote:You have evidence and its staring at you in the face as it were. Machinists. The Machines didn't really need us to work with them they could have continued their jobs without us. It would have been more difficult for them, they could have not decided to approach us, but they did. That shows some kind of trust, perhaps not a great deal but some all the same. They approached us to work with them and it is from that foundation that we Machinists try to build a more prosperous future for both species.It's just that kind of attitude which almost guarantees Mankind's continued 'enslavement' as you put it.All this is done as part of the Machine's system of control over us. I'll also note that there is STILL no evidence showing that playing nice with the Machine is any solution or way out of this "relationship" as a whole.When has the word of a Machinist ever helped in swaying the agenda of the machine? Might I remind you of your attempt at ridding yourself of the Cypherites before the war and how well that went over?
Allow me to put you in your place. You are a foot solider. That is all. When there is a job that a program can not do or the system is low on resources you are the ones that get called to do it. You are not politicians, or negotiators, or leaders. You are simply soldiers. Your word carries no weight in this war and any peace will not be brought on because of how the machine sees you. For now you are simply a needed accessory to help control and protect the system as its "war" has grown much larger then before the truce.
Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary. The Machines approached us at the beginning of the truce because humans dealing with humans in a "peaceful" way is easier than Machine - Human. The reason why they still keep you is because Zion is still there. If they abondoned you and the war stopped (without all Zion crushed), the fact that they abondoned their tools would make a second coming of their "peaceful intentions" rather ... doubtful.
Cypherites. They would have been abondoned already by the Machines were it not for their desperation towards Zions downfall.
You can guess what happens when they don't need you anymore. There is no retirement.
Also on a sidenote: Gami, you are a soldier as well, but in contrast to the Machines, Zion would not "deal with us".
Never said I wasn't.
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.This line of attack always gives me a little chuckle.
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Garu wrote:Referees can only be "neutral third parties". I hope you don't refer to yourself and your party.[...] referee [...]. It isn't an easy job but you don't get anywhere by quitting, right?
Garu wrote:Since you said you want to kiss their metal asses, Machinists clearly don't fit into that job, I fear.As machinists, we are trying to impress upon the Machines that equality can be achieved.
Neither do Zionites, nor EPNs. Also it seems that most Merovingians can't be taken into account either.
As bad as it sounds, the only third party in existance, which is known to us, is the Intruder. Though, it's doubtful that he could fulfill the job of a referee.
- DD
I was simply referring to how some of us feel like we're caught in the middle of a schoolyard fight, trying to keep both sides from tearing each other apart. There's an obvious difference between "trying to referee" and actually being one.
Procurator wrote:
I may be a soldier but even soldiers have a voice and it is our actions that will prove to the Machines that Mankind can cooperate. The Zion way of thinking is based on Mankind's history with Mankind and as such is flawed when you apply it to Machine - Mankind. If I ever decide to stop my fight and retire, although I doubt I'll live long enough to retire, I don't expect the Machines to waste any energy on locating my new home and killing me, especially when I am of no threat to them whatsoever and have never been a threat to them.
Oh and Pyraci, they say sarcasm is the recourse of a weak mind, they must be wrong however, for you have always managed to argue your case with a distinct intelligence, so congratulations on disproving that theory.
GoDGiVeR wrote:As it does me. There is no proof, no evidence, apart from the desperate thoughts of anyone who cannot comprehend what we are doing, that the Machines will simply abandon Machinists. Gray already stated that our existence is not dependant on Zion, when we are no longer needed in the simulation there is no evidence to say that we will be disposed of either. In fact while Humankind exists in the pods we shall be there, when Mankind finally manages to evolve past its violent nature and it's prejudice against the Machines, we shall be there.Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.This line of attack always gives me a little chuckle.
I may be a soldier but even soldiers have a voice and it is our actions that will prove to the Machines that Mankind can cooperate. The Zion way of thinking is based on Mankind's history with Mankind and as such is flawed when you apply it to Machine - Mankind. If I ever decide to stop my fight and retire, although I doubt I'll live long enough to retire, I don't expect the Machines to waste any energy on locating my new home and killing me, especially when I am of no threat to them whatsoever and have never been a threat to them.
Oh and Pyraci, they say sarcasm is the recourse of a weak mind, they must be wrong however, for you have always managed to argue your case with a distinct intelligence, so congratulations on disproving that theory.
Vinia wrote:
Vinia wrote:
Vinia wrote:
Though, I'm not a fanboy of conspiracy theories. I'm considering all possibilites to minimize the error-margin. The opinion I have is always changing, considering that the margin of error becomes too great. As of right now, the margin of error on this topic is unknown. Time will tell.
Vinia wrote:
As much as I'd like to evolve into that kind of lifeform, nature has not created mankind (or any other life form) to be able of such a feat. In millions of years, though, lifeforms could come "indefintely" close to it.
Vinia wrote:
- DD
[...] apart from the desperate thoughts of anyone who cannot comprehend what we are doing, that the Machines will simply abandon Machinists.The fact that understanding Machinists (Cypherites excluded, of course) is easy makes me always chuckle when you say that we don't understand you. Furthermore, desperate ... ? Perception is everything. I do not desperatly try to punch my opinion into you, there's no need to.
Vinia wrote:
There is no proof, no evidence, apart from the desperate thoughts of anyone who cannot comprehend what we are doing, that the Machines will simply abandon Machinists.Empirism and personal experience, of course, is neither evidence nor proof if it's only perceived by one individual. However, 5/6 of the human population (bluepills excluded), which are the Zion (+city) and Merovingian human populations, perceive that as well. Of course that's a rough estimate, but hey, statistics are fun.
Vinia wrote:
Gray already stated that our existence is not dependant on Zion, when we are no longer needed in the simulation there is no evidence to say that we will be disposed of either.Gray only knows what he's told, as do 99% (<- just a figure) of all Machine programs and the Machinists. The rather few individuals knowing the real agendas and plans do not reveal them and need not to. What a "real agenda" is? It could be what you are saying and what every other Machine program knows. On the other hand, it could as well be the things you don't know and govern you from the dark.
Though, I'm not a fanboy of conspiracy theories. I'm considering all possibilites to minimize the error-margin. The opinion I have is always changing, considering that the margin of error becomes too great. As of right now, the margin of error on this topic is unknown. Time will tell.
Vinia wrote:
In fact while Humankind exists in the pods we shall be there, when Mankind finally manages to evolve past its violent nature and it's prejudice against the Machines, we shall be there.The only form of existance that "avoids" violence is Gaia (violence does not exist due to consent of 'all' being part of the lifeform, of course multiple Gaias would tend to differ) and even though the Machines are much closer to this form of life, they are lightyears away from not being violent (E.g. the Exiles perceive that violence, hence why they choose Exile). This form evolution, though, is exclusive from intelligent beings as these tend to categorize and create opinions.
As much as I'd like to evolve into that kind of lifeform, nature has not created mankind (or any other life form) to be able of such a feat. In millions of years, though, lifeforms could come "indefintely" close to it.
Vinia wrote:
The Zion way of thinking is based on Mankind's history with Mankind and as such is flawed when you apply it to Machine - Mankind.I only apply to the Machines what I know that is applicable.That's why I abandoned history (going beyond this iteration) a long time ago. What I think and what I do is result of the here and now, not of what happened a thousand years ago.
- DD
I'm not talking about Mankind 'avoiding' violence, I believe that Mankind will always have its conflicted nature, no I'm suggesting that we can evolve past the point where violence is so easy to revert to when disagreements happen or when faced with sharing something with something or someone that's different from us.
Vinia wrote:
Vinia wrote:
The Machines are not parasites, they have a symbiotic relationship with the Humans in the pods, both depending on each other.The Machines do not depend on mankind: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
Vinia wrote:
Even if the host can live perfectly well with the parasite? You'd still kill them?Archived image unavailable: r3332415849.html <- Machinist?
GoDGiVeR wrote:
Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.
You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.
Illyria
Illyria22 wrote:
GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.
Illyria
Alow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".
In short do you want the two to mearly co-exist or live together?
GamiSB wrote:
Illyria22 wrote:
Survival is the preferred modus operati. However, living in fear, like Zion did even during the truce, this isn't some kind of life people want to live for in eternity, hence New Zion. It may sound weird, but actual war (now) is preferred before cold war (during truce). You know what you're dealing with and you know how to deal with it.
Of course it is a gamble, but it was the best shot if real peace is to come. The truce wasn't peace, it was preperation to it.
- DD
Illyria22 wrote:GoDGiVeR wrote:Machinists will be abondoned as soon as they become inefficient or unnecessary.You know my response to that. As long as the bluepills -- the majority of the human species -- survive, then I know that I've won. As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
I am more concerned over the survival of the species than the survival of the individual, even if that individual happens to be me.
Illyria
Alow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".
In short do you want the two to mearly co-exist or live together?
Illyria22 wrote:
That should give you the answer, Gami.As long as the human race and the Machine race continue to exist, I have succeeded.
Survival is the preferred modus operati. However, living in fear, like Zion did even during the truce, this isn't some kind of life people want to live for in eternity, hence New Zion. It may sound weird, but actual war (now) is preferred before cold war (during truce). You know what you're dealing with and you know how to deal with it.
Of course it is a gamble, but it was the best shot if real peace is to come. The truce wasn't peace, it was preperation to it.
- DD
GypsyJuggler wrote:
The Machines do not depend on mankind: "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept."
[image] <- Machinist?
Is that parasite affecting that persons way of life, is it causing pain and suffering to the individual? To you and me, it probably would, but we're not the people to ask. Would you kill that person because you think they can't bear it?
Because the Machines say they can exist without Mankind doesn't mean they don't have a symbiotic relationship with us. With Humankind they live in a mutually beneficial relationship, without they would undoubtably lose their quality of life, they can exist, but not live up to their full potential so yes, they do depend on Humankind to continue living as they do now.
A similar sort of symbiosis can be found with the relationship between Ocellaris clownfish that dwell among the tentacles of Ritteri sea anemones. The fish protects the anemone from anemone-eating fish, and in turn the stinging tentacles of the anemone protect the clownfish from its predators, they can live independantly but have a better chance together. You can even say that Mankind and Technology is a Symbiotic relationship, not talking about the Machines you are fighting against, I'm talking about the Machines you depend on to live which depend on you to be fixed and maintained.
The difference is that the anemone hasn't declared war on the types of fish that don't shelter in it's tentacles.
GypsyJuggler wrote:
The difference is that the anemone hasn't declared war on the types of fish that don't shelter in it's tentacles.I think you'll find that it is aggressive toward and preys on other marine creatures. While they don't have a documented declaration of war you can't say that they don't conflict.
GamiSB wrote:
Alow me to ask a question then to better understand your position. Do you believe that is okay for the Machines to keep the human race oblivious to the condition it is in and the few that do want to know kept under wraps? ?
Until there is a way for humanity as a whole to survive on the surface, yes. Where else could all those people live now, if not in the Matrix?
GamiSB wrote:
Also then do you believe that it is okay for the Machine to commit genocide on all living freeborn in the name of "Protecting the System".
My preference is for the fewest number of deaths, and the bluepills far outnumber the freeborn...so if it came down to the survival of the freeborn (and redpills) vs. the survival of the bluepills, then yes. Save the system and save the bluepills.
But I hope it will never come to that again.
GamiSB wrote:
In short do you want the two to mearly co-exist or live together?
Mere coexistence is not the answer. Two segretated societies -- one Machine, one human -- "seperate but equal" is not the answer either. Living together as part of the same society is the ultimate goal.
Illyria
Vinia wrote:
GypsyJuggler wrote:The anemone is aggressive in self defence. The Machines are actively trying to end the life of every last free human being be they man, woman or child.The difference is that the anemone hasn't declared war on the types of fish that don't shelter in it's tentacles.I think you'll find that it is aggressive toward and preys on other marine creatures. While they don't have a documented declaration of war you can't say that they don't conflict.
I don't see them trying to end Machinist lives, Cypherite lives, or Merovingian lives.
Illyria
Those groups have an interest in ensuring the survival of the System - when I said 'free' I meant free of the System.