[8.3.5] "All my work will be lost" - Syntax - 11/14/07

Right - but they went ahead and called it off, didn't they? There was no interest in negotiation, just war. This doesn't give us much of a hope for neogtiation in general, let alone negotiation contingent on the terms of "diarming."

As for EMPs - why should they be permitted under peace times (when they are meant as weapons of war) and "disallowed" under war times? There's no authority there, but, at least in my view, if they were to be seen as a weapon, they would've been seen as weapons during the Truce. These cannot be the weapons the Machines were talking about.

I'll try to forget that you even mentioned the Machines keeping to the Truce "to the letter" (oh yeah, remember those folks known as the Cypherites? that was in no way an attempt to circumvent the Truce), and move on to say that there is no reason we should not negotiate, if anywhere, in the Matrix. All of the scenarios involving the Real incorporate a risk, whereas the Matrix presents no risk. It would be easy enough, and if your only argument against it is that it's "their territory" (which is a joke), then there's no case against making negotiations there, rather than in the Real.

Finally, however, I must ask why and how you see the cessation of awakenings as beneficial to all of mankind. This is something I've been asking throughout this argument that no Machinist has answered. It is clearly a goal of the Machines in this war, as is the removal of all redpills from the Matrix. How is this a good thing?

I was just overemphasizing this because, (though you may realize it, many of your compatriots do not) Machinists and Cypherites are not exempt from any of the human holocaust. Many suffer the delusion that for their "service" they will be permitted such a pension as to be allowed to live. But the Machine recognizes the escalating probability of disaster that their breeding and "living" would cause, and would find it no less than efficient to eliminate them. At least, that's how I see it. But, to answer your point, I was simply overemphasizing for the point of drawing a clearer inclusion than you suggested.

You could have made an effort to try for a negotiation though, but there was none. EMP's were allowed in peace time as the Machines wouldn't and didn't make any moves against you in order to force you to set them off, they were defensive devices that you can use against other Organisations or 'pirate' vessels, it was also possibly one of the terms of the truce that The Architect and The Oracle hammered out for both Zion and Machine, that Zion be allowed to keep their defensive weaponry, but that can not be proven at this point.

The Machines kept to the letter, but loopholes in the truce allowed for the Machines to create a group of people that will make sure Zion wasn't waking more that the 1% allowed by the truce. I also cannot prove this, but you also cannot prove that they broke the truce by doing so.

How is the simulation being Machine territory a joke? It was created and is created by the Machines, they have control over it. As for 'negotiating' there, do you also forget that Machines enter the simulation as programs? Given the right technical planning, it wouldn't take much for Zion to block any Machine signals and terminate them inside the simulation, indeed we are all aware of the success of certain kill-codes. Or is that an idea that Zion is wanting to pursue? Neutral ground means no advantage to either side, Machines or Zion.

Before I answer your final question, I must ask why you believe that awakening people from the simulation is beneficial to mankind, apart from bolstering Zion's military. A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of. Besides I only took from the Architects words that Zion was not allowed to awaken any more bluepills. That doesn't mean that Machinists can't be present at self substantiated awakenings to ease the understandably unnerved bluepill into the truth. With the cycle of the one finished there is no requirement for bluepills to be woken up, unless they are specialists in a field of expertise that can benefit both Man and Machine such as working with the Machines to help attempt to clear the sky and bring vegetation back to the surface en mass.

Those terms (disarm to approach negotiation) were presented at what was essentially the very beginning of the war to Machinists, and it was through them that we learned about it. Now, as we're being caught off guard pursued and killed in the Real, the first thing on our minds wasn't exactly negotiation, and understandably so, wouldn't you say? Now, as we're being attacked, and the city of Zion is completely crushed and destroyed, maybe you'd understand that there are a good number of us in Zion who aren't too keen to turn off our defenses, even for an instant, to fly to some vulnerable spot in the Real and say "We'd appreciate it a whole lot if you'd stop killing us." We're not that trusting, especially after the abrupt nullification of the Truce. That's just not going to happen.

We can discard that whole EMP thing - I was just saying that there's basically no way those were the weapons the Machines were referencing in their terms for negotiation, since they've been around for forever and a day. And, well, there's no way we'd strip every ship of their EMPs. No way in hell. I think even they can see that. And if that is what they were referencing, it's an even more offensive term.

And if you're saying that the Machines didn't "break the Truce" by creating and nursing the Cypherites, I will very clearly tell you that Zion never "broke the Truce" by creating New Zion. Just as simple as that when you get to that argument.

Now, for the Matrix - it being a Machine-only territory is a joke. Redpills enter every day, there's probably not a second that not one operative is jacked-in. It is populated by bluepills, humans, those we once were, and the minds who, when ready, are freed. The Matrix is a simulated human world, not a Machine world. It seems quite ironic to call it Machine territory to me, though they are technically in "posession" of it, I guess. And, as for the schemes you're talking about - I thought the idea was negotiation? Why would we block Machine signals? That wouldn't get us anywhere.

Killcodes, I understand, are more than a little difficult to create in a matter of moments - the one for Anome took quite a while, and even if they're used, if someone else jumps in the way, as referenced with the Kid and the Oracle, nothing's going to happen. In other words - they're easy enough to stop, whereas there's nothing in the Real that will prevent death. We're moving for negotiation, assuming it would be wanted by both parties in this scenario, it would be relatively easy to broker in the Matrix where ploys are less than simple to exact, whereas in the Real all it would take is one big Machine ambush. I still see no disadvantage to negotiation in the Matrix.

And your question? I could answer but...

You took the red pill, didn't you? Shouldn't you know the answer to that one?

Neoteny wrote:

I was just overemphasizing this because, (though you may realize it, many of your compatriots do not) Machinists and Cypherites are not exempt from any of the human holocaust. Many suffer the delusion that for their "service" they will be permitted such a pension as to be allowed to live. But the Machine recognizes the escalating probability of disaster that their breeding and "living" would cause, and would find it no less than efficient to eliminate them. At least, that's how I see it. But, to answer your point, I was simply overemphasizing for the point of drawing a clearer inclusion than you suggested.

Please prove this. Just because the Machines are at war with Zion does not make Machinists or Bluepills next on their list. We have proven that we can work with them. If we can show them that Humankind has made up for its past, that we can live with the Machines without malice and work to produce a better world, the same way that they wanted when their original envoys went to the UN. You have no evidence at all to backup your claims that we will be included in any terminations. That is just typical, standard Zion propaganda, spouted by those who attempt to prey on anyone who has joined the Machines or Cyphs or are thinking about it, in order to convince them to fight for your cause.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce. 

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Before I answer your final question, I must ask why you believe that awakening people from the simulation is beneficial to mankind, apart from bolstering Zion's military. A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of. Besides I only took from the Architects words that Zion was not allowed to awaken any more bluepills. That doesn't mean that Machinists can't be present at self substantiated awakenings to ease the understandably unnerved bluepill into the truth. With the cycle of the one finished there is no requirement for bluepills to be woken up, unless they are specialists in a field of expertise that can benefit both Man and Machine such as working with the Machines to help attempt to clear the sky and bring vegetation back to the surface en mass.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Ensuring that we will not harm the system in the future and killing us are two separate things, they do not go hand in hand. You still present a form of propaganda with no proof. What other ways can they ensure that we would not harm the system? By choosing who works for them carefully? By preventing our signals from entering the Simulation when we are not needed any more etc.....

Also, this record states that our existence is not based on the existence of Zion. We are here to Protect the Simulation and those who depend on it for survival. There are more enemies of the system out there than Zion, don't get big headed.

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce.

Due to Zion's breach of the truce, yes we are aware of this.

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Yes, surrender of your Arms and Fortifications.

Vinia wrote:

A bluepill can live his or her life quite happily even with the splinter of thought that something might be wrong, it will save them from being killed in a war that they have little idea of.

Just a little side-note here: By this statement you are essentially saying that a Bluepill, and by extension every human, should be happy to merely plod away at life. To merely exist. Contributing nothing but the inefficient conversion of carbon-based matter to electrical and thermal energy. If that is the case... why do you fight so firecely to defend a way of life that you yourself rejected by taking the red-pill.

There is a difference between non-harmful and benneficial.

All forms of sentience, human or otherwise should be free to chose how they live. That will never happen while bluepills remain un-aware of the real world, nor while the silliest of excuses are used to open and continue hostilities.

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too?

This statement is nonsense.  You're claiming that all humans were wiped out by the Machines during the original war?  Impossible.  If that were true, then we wouldn't be here today!  You can't just create a human being out of nothing; you can't mix a bunch of DNA together and get the human genetic code.  Besides, the original 'surrender your flesh' line was 'surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you'. 

As for those who (continually) say that once Zion and its inhabitants are gone the Machines will kill all their redpill operatives as well, I have two things to say.  The first is that there's no proof this will happen.  Why kill us all off when some of us, at least, would willingly share our energy with them?  Even if a redpill can't go back to being a bluepill, you can still be hooked into a pod and be aware of the Matrix.  My second response to the claim that the Machines will kill us all off is this:  I am a soldier, and soldiers have the duty to protect the civilian population, even if it means giving up their lives so that the civilians of their country won't have to.  A soldier does not put his or her own life above that of civilians, and a soldier does not cower and hide when it comes time to make that sacrifice.  The civilians here are the bluepills, the vast majority of the human race, and the country that sustains them is the system.  My duty is to protect them both, to make sure the human race continues to exist.  To put my life above their safety would be both selfish and cowardly...therefore, if I were deemed to be a threat to them, then that threat should be neutralized.  The lives of the 99% of the human race still in the Matrix outweigh the lives of a comparative handful of redpills, no matter what org they're in.

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too? If now is just like then... Well, guess what's coming for you?

But if you'd like an example...

Ensuring that we will not harm the system in the future and killing us are two separate things, they do not go hand in hand. You still present a form of propaganda with no proof. What other ways can they ensure that we would not harm the system? By choosing who works for them carefully? By preventing our signals from entering the Simulation when we are not needed any more etc.....

Also, this record states that our existence is not based on the existence of Zion. We are here to Protect the Simulation and those who depend on it for survival. There are more enemies of the system out there than Zion, don't get big headed.

Oh, and here's another couple which contribute to what we've been talking about. Remember to analyze the language thoroughly, as with the above - they have ensured that you will not become a threat to the System. I wonder how? Their ways of ensuring that Zionites do not become threats to the System hasn't been so friendly.

Our termination of the Truce.

Due to Zion's breach of the truce, yes we are aware of this.

And the statement we've been bickering over.

Yes, surrender of your Arms and Fortifications.

Your propaganda and insinuated propaganda is as flawed as your belief that you can change our beliefs with it.

What propaganda? I told you that the intention was merely to back up my refutation, and threw in a file with a statement that's something you should probably be worried about. But if you want to be as gulliable as we were during the Truce, then, by all means, be my guest. I don't expect you to listen, but I will be damned if I won't sound the warning bell until the day I, or the Machine die.

Of course your existence doesn't depend on Zion - no one's does. I'm still around, aren't I? And Zion's gone. And that's the deal they've offered you anyway, destroy all Zion, you can live. But if you really believe that your function as an operative working for the System hasn't changed, you're obviously blind. No Machinists had any orders to attack, or, as the situation is, kill Zion operatives, or damage their equipment and information. That sounds like a change to me. Or would you have done that during the Truce if the Machines had told you to?

However, you still have not answered the most important question. Still. Why do you believe the cessation of awakenings to be a good thing? Why would you support this goal? Do you not remember your own awakening? Do you not remember ignorance, and the knowledge you now possess? Or have you, too, found it to be bliss?

Neoteny wrote:

Again, this is a manner of disproving Proc's logic. In the first war, all were wiped out. Certainly there were some Machine sympathizers there, too?

This statement is nonsense.  You're claiming that all humans were wiped out by the Machines during the original war?  Impossible.  If that were true, then we wouldn't be here today!  You can't just create a human being out of nothing; you can't mix a bunch of DNA together and get the human genetic code.  Besides, the original 'surrender your flesh' line was 'surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you'. 

As for those who (continually) say that once Zion and its inhabitants are gone the Machines will kill all their redpill operatives as well, I have two things to say.  The first is that there's no proof this will happen.  Why kill us all off when some of us, at least, would willingly share our energy with them?  Even if a redpill can't go back to being a bluepill, you can still be hooked into a pod and be aware of the Matrix.  My second response to the claim that the Machines will kill us all off is this:  I am a soldier, and soldiers have the duty to protect the civilian population, even if it means giving up their lives so that the civilians of their country won't have to.  A soldier does not put his or her own life above that of civilians, and a soldier does not cower and hide when it comes time to make that sacrifice.  The civilians here are the bluepills, the vast majority of the human race, and the country that sustains them is the system.  My duty is to protect them both, to make sure the human race continues to exist.  To put my life above their safety would be both selfish and cowardly...therefore, if I were deemed to be a threat to them, then that threat should be neutralized.  The lives of the 99% of the human race still in the Matrix outweigh the lives of a comparative handful of redpills, no matter what org they're in.

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.

What propaganda? I told you that the intention was merely to back up my refutation, and threw in a file with a statement that's something you should probably be worried about. But if you want to be as gulliable as we were during the Truce, then, by all means, be my guest. I don't expect you to listen, but I will be damned if I won't sound the warning bell until the day I, or the Machine die.

Of course your existence doesn't depend on Zion - no one's does. I'm still around, aren't I? And Zion's gone. And that's the deal they've offered you anyway, destroy all Zion, you can live. But if you really believe that your function as an operative working for the System hasn't changed, you're obviously blind. No Machinists had any orders to attack, or, as the situation is, kill Zion operatives, or damage their equipment and information. That sounds like a change to me. Or would you have done that during the Truce if the Machines had told you to?

However, you still have not answered the most important question. Still. Why do you believe the cessation of awakenings to be a good thing? Why would you support this goal? Do you not remember your own awakening? Do you not remember ignorance, and the knowledge you now possess? Or have you, too, found it to be bliss?

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

So 'surrendering your flesh' means dying, not getting plugged in for power generation (which is what they were talking about), and the 'new world' they mentioned was the afterlife?  No.

Neoteny wrote:

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

We are protecting them from threats to the Matrix, their life support system.  We are also protecting them from recruitment by Zion into a war zone. 

Neoteny wrote:

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.

You must have me confused with someone else -- during the truce I strongly opposed Cypherite attacks on Zion ships and personnel.  In my mind, Cypherites are just as defeatist as EPN and many Zionites...they don't believe humans can ever live in peace with the Machines.  Cypherites think we'd be better off staying in our pods, whereas I believe that humanity can outgrow its fear and hatred and live together with the Machines.  (Some of us have already started, we're just waiting for the rest of you to catch up.)  Also, during the truce, I fully supported the awakening of anyone who had rejected the system and who wanted out.  Awakenings have only been curtailed because of the state of war.  We don't want Zion's forces increasing -- new redpills are being recruited into Zion, and I seriously doubt any of them can easily get out of New Zion if they do happen to want to work for another org!  Plus we don't want anyone who's stuck in New Zion but not happy there to end up as collateral damage.  This is the answer to the question someone asked, why the "cessation of awakenings is beneficial to all of mankind", at least for now, while we're at war.  Once the war is over, awakenings will have to continue -- but not to bolster Zion's army with new recruits.  Awakenings are necessary because without them the system would become unstable. 

Illyria

You told me to analyse their wording carefully.... You could do the same. Our existence does not depend on Zion's not just the old city, but its population in the new city. What you do does not mean that the Machines will retaliate at us. No such deal was made, I joined them and they allowed me to protect the system and the blues against it's enemies, this now includes you and yours. Our function hasn't changed at all we are still charged with protecting the system and its inhabitants. The actions needed to achieve this may have changed but the goal is still the same.

I have already stated that it is only Zion who has been prohibited from awakening those who reject the system, if there are any bluepills that require to be woken for whatever reason or someone self substantiates themselves then I have no doubts that the Machines would allow Machinists to see to it. What reason do you want to awaken bluepills to this war? As I have said before, the only reason why you would want to is to increase your own military strength, under the cover of 'freeing them because they want to be freed'. You say when you meet them that you cannot tell them what the Matrix is, they have to see it for themselves.... If you don't tell them, how do they know they want to be freed? You prey on their curiosity but give them no warning.

I certainly didn't know what the Matrix was, I had nagging doubts about the simulation for years, but I buried them and got on with my life. I was happy with my life but was duped by a terrorist that my unit was after. . I was fed lies and half truths from the that man when he saw the doubts in my eyes whilst I was under duress and in a vulnerable state. When I saw the actual truth in the archives it was then that I decided that to secure mankind's future, cooperation with Machines was the way forward.

Knowing what I know, I don't want to go back, when I can at least try to protect and make a difference for the future of bluepills who currently depend on the simulation to live.

Then you should realize that Gray says the priveledge was granted to Zion (and to no one else) under the Truce, and has hereby been revoked. He's not going to be telling you to go extract some bluepills anytime soon. Why? Because it is the very right we are fighting for. Were it permitted for Machinists, there would be no point to the Zion cause - all could simply shift over and awaken every bluepill that wanted out. But they have forbidden it. That is why we continue to fight.

As for your purpose? I submit to you that it must have changed, as we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. We enter the Matrix, run extractions, and try to keep our Systems running. What has changed are your orders, your definitions. Someone has placed a rose-colored lens in front of your eye, which has painted Zionites traitors and enemies.

And maybe you had a bad awakening. That seems to be the case among many Machinists and Cypherites. But the point is that you don't regret it. It's something that you wanted, and it was beneficial. I know with my own awakening that I doubted the reality of the Matrix, and when I was shown the truth, it was a great relief. Woes, fears, mental instability - it had all been an illusion, as I had thought. I certainly would have gone mad within the confines of the Matrix. And if there's one thing worse than death, it's being a prisoner in your own mind, denied the truth, subject to the lie. That is why I will continue to offer the choice. That is why it is a necessity - because every human being deserves to know the truth, to make a conscious choice about their life.

For life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The inborn human rights, according to John Locke.

Neoteny wrote:

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

Again you need to take some of your own advice and analyse the wording of the Machines. 'Surrender your flesh and a new world awaits you' is a metaphor. Note that they didn't say 'Surrender your lives...' they said flesh... the easiest thing to see that makes them different to us.

It means stop allowing and fear of difference, that is embedded into the human psyche, to take control of you. Surrender what makes you so fearful of the Machines, and the future, the world will be much brighter with both living without prejudice. By giving the Machines and Mankind a chance at peace a blissful future would be had.

We are protecting Bluepills from anything that can disrupt or damage the thing they depend on to live, the system. This comes in many forms, not just other redpills with delusions of reclaiming the surface for humanity only, but also programs who want to increase their power or take advantage of the simulation.

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

When it comes down to it in the end, the Machines, Agents, exiles or we zionites really don't have much power or control in the Matrix. Deus Ex does. If he/it will change the balance of the Matrix, I am pretty sure he could do that without Agent Grey, Niobe or the Merovingian's approval first...and not to forget Cryptos. We fight on each of our sides...as we should do in this war. We can even think, that we are 101% sure, that our enemies are wrong, when they claim who started this war, who want peace, who killed who etc.

To be hornets, it's about time we really do accept that we are at war. If there comes a time where we can sit around the table and negotiate...we will know. The time is not right now it seems. We still protect what we have to protect, because we did chose our own path and follow our friends and leaders..right?

I believe it's time to take another road if both sides want peace. All we need it is to say yes. Do you want peace, do you want this war to end? (has nothing to do with Algorithm)

Say YES to end the war.

(Edit: stupid smilies)

Neoteny wrote:

What do you think "surrender your flesh" means? Well, I'll tell you. Even though you folks think you've been clever adopting it as some sort of catchy slogan, it means "die." Death, erradication, doom. The end. Game over.

So 'surrendering your flesh' means dying, not getting plugged in for power generation (which is what they were talking about), and the 'new world' they mentioned was the afterlife?  No.

Yes, essentially.

Neoteny wrote:

But let's be honest here, what exactly are you protecting the bluepills from?

We are protecting them from threats to the Matrix, their life support system.  We are also protecting them from recruitment by Zion into a war zone. 

Again, what threat? And I'll remind you, the Machine has the power to call off the war at any time - the "war zone" is their doing, not ours. We even offer protective shelter in New Zion.

Neoteny wrote:

Right. You've been a noted Cypherite since before the end of the Truce, anyhow.

You must have me confused with someone else -- during the truce I strongly opposed Cypherite attacks on Zion ships and personnel.  In my mind, Cypherites are just as defeatist as EPN and many Zionites...they don't believe humans can ever live in peace with the Machines.  Cypherites think we'd be better off staying in our pods, whereas I believe that humanity can outgrow its fear and hatred and live together with the Machines.  (Some of us have already started, we're just waiting for the rest of you to catch up.)  Also, during the truce, I fully supported the awakening of anyone who had rejected the system and who wanted out.  Awakenings have only been curtailed because of the state of war.  We don't want Zion's forces increasing -- new redpills are being recruited into Zion, and I seriously doubt any of them can easily get out of New Zion if they do happen to want to work for another org!  Plus we don't want anyone who's stuck in New Zion but not happy there to end up as collateral damage.  This is the answer to the question someone asked, why the "cessation of awakenings is beneficial to all of mankind", at least for now, while we're at war.  Once the war is over, awakenings will have to continue -- but not to bolster Zion's army with new recruits.  Awakenings are necessary because without them the system would become unstable. 

Pardon me if I don't think truth has patience. It demands to be known, and this can be seen through the madness many bluepills spiral into when they are unable to find the answers they seek. Pardon me if I will not permit 30,000 human beings to go mad and become a danger to themselves and others, where there is a simple solution - generally the one they are seeking. It is a travesty that we are at "war," and as I have said before, and will, no doubt, say again, the existence of the war is contingent on the Machine will. They could end it at any time without repercussion, but will not. 

And if I recall, you once made a statement along the lines of "I don't see much of a problem with the Cypherites," not to mention your escapades running into a Zion meeting uninvited and opening fire on the captains and liaisons gathered, killing a Captain of Zion. It is through your actions, not your views, that I have found you to act in a manner befitting a Cypherite. Prohibiting awakenings, killing Zion's redpills - they say if the glove fits...

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

So none were plugged into the Matrix then?

Also you answer your own question. Machine mandate has changed, you have become aggressors to the system, whilst Machinist goal has not changed, we protect the system and, as an extention to that, bluepills against its enemies. Zion has made itself an enemy, so why should we allow your activities inside the simulation to continue as if the truce was still ongoing? Unless you are blind to the situation, you will see tht extractions have changed, during the truce, you were safe from intervention by Agents of the system as you were allowed to wake the 1%. You are now not safe.... awakening are more perilous for you and your extraction teams, in fact your mere presence inside certain areas the simulation is moderated. You do not need to be inside the System for anything other than illegally waking bluepills and mounting hostile actions against the Machines.

Just because Agent Gray said that Zion's privileges were revoked, he mentions nothing about anything else, what proof do you have that we are unable to wake people up if its necessary?

I have also mentioned before that it's not just you who pose a threat to the system there are other threats as well, the Intruder for one, or have you been living under a rock in New Zion? I don't expect you to agree with what I say, it has gone past the point where you will actually stop and listen to us, but I do expect you to read what we say, instead of asking the same question over and over, one that has been answered. Not only do you not read what we say, but you make conclusions with only half the facts. Debating, or even arguing with you is pointless as you are unable to register what we are saying.

Zion's short lived Sun has set, you plunged yorselves into darkness. Let us hope that there are some within the walls with the courage and wisdom to see what is needed to bring about Zion's contribution to peace, and to allow the Sun to rise again.... hopefully for a much longer time.

Neoteny wrote:

...And what did they do? Killed 'em all.

But more to the point, what exactly are you protecting bluepills from? What danger is there? Obviously, you have been killing our operatives, and prohibiting our extractions - why? What threat do they pose? Extractions are no different than they were during the Truce, and even before the Truce. Again, we haven't changed a *CENSORED* thing. What reason, other than Machine mandate, makes us the aggressors of bluepills and the System?

So none were plugged into the Matrix then?

This is original humanity. They didn't have plugs. Ergo, they could not be plugged into the Matrix, which, at that point, didn't exist anyway. As far as we know, only grown human beings have the plugs necessary to be jacked-into the Matrix. Additionally, wouldn't it sort of fail if they already knew there was another real world? They'd be just like redpills by default - there's no chance they'd fall for the simulation ploy. And even after that, the first Matrix has been revealed to have been a failure - all that were plugged in died. There were no survivors of the original humanity. 

Also you answer your own question. Machine mandate has changed, you have become aggressors to the system, whilst Machinist goal has not changed, we protect the system and, as an extention to that, bluepills against its enemies. Zion has made itself an enemy, so why should we allow your activities inside the simulation to continue as if the truce was still ongoing? Unless you are blind to the situation, you will see tht extractions have changed, during the truce, you were safe from intervention by Agents of the system as you were allowed to wake the 1%. You are now not safe.... awakening are more perilous for you and your extraction teams, in fact your mere presence inside certain areas the simulation is moderated. You do not need to be inside the System for anything other than illegally waking bluepills and mounting hostile actions against the Machines.

We haven't changed anything - as I said, extraction procedure hasn't changed, it's been happening the same way since the first war. You can tell yourself it's changed all you want, but it's not us that did the changing. Our procedures are still the same as they have always been. You have, however, made it clear that you follow orders in perfect Divine Command theory, with the Machine at the head. In other words - why act against us? Because they said that's what's good. Or, at least, that's all I've been able to discern. You say you defend the System and bluepills from all enemies - but who is the enemy? Who the Machine tells you is the enemy. You say you are protecting them, but what is there to protect them from? Actions the Machine has told you are hostile.

Just because Agent Gray said that Zion's privileges were revoked, he mentions nothing about anything else, what proof do you have that we are unable to wake people up if its necessary?

The fact that the Machines would never view a loss of power as necessary.

I have also mentioned before that it's not just you who pose a threat to the system there are other threats as well, the Intruder for one, or have you been living under a rock in New Zion? I don't expect you to agree with what I say, it has gone past the point where you will actually stop and listen to us, but I do expect you to read what we say, instead of asking the same question over and over, one that has been answered. Not only do you not read what we say, but you make conclusions with only half the facts.

I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response. Maybe if you'd read what I had to say and respond to that, I wouldn't have had to raise the same question over and over again. I feel it is a question of paramount importance which needs due consideration and evaluation, and everyone was overlooking it. Hence, I repeated myself, as I would expect you to do the same if you believed that I had overlooked something.

I'd like for you to understand and agree with what I'm saying, for someone to - that's why I'm saying it, I suppose. But I don't expect you to.

And, for future interests: If you are attempting to assert that I am not reading your answers for my continued line of questioning - I assure you that I am reading very diligently. Sometimes it takes me quite a time to conjure up a response because I am making sure that I answer in kind to the points of your response. If I raise a question again, it is generally in the interest of the Socratic Method, as I have found many of your responses to be hollow.

For example:

Q: Why do you serve as Machinist operatives?
A: To protect the System and the bluepills therein.
Q: And what exactly are you protecting them from?
A: Whatever threatens them.
Q: Why, then, are Zionites being targeted? In what way have we threatened bluepills and the System?
A: You have been labelled enemies of the System by the Machine.
Q: Why have we been labelled enemies of the System? Why do you consider the mandate of the System an ultimate authority in this situation?
A: Because I believe they are the ultimate authority. Morality and justice stems through them. You have been labelled enemies of the System because you broke the Truce.
Q: Ah, but how did we break the Truce again? Because the Machine said that we broke the Truce? Since they are the ultimate source of morality and justice, might anything we have done be seen as a breach of the Truce, if their word is infallible?

Et cetera. It serves to find the root of your argument. Of course, in his day, many people assumed Socrates either wasn't listening, or that he should have been more satisfied with the hollow answers he was given...

I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response.

Exactly why I say you do not register what we say. I will make this as easy as I can for you. We protect the Bluepills against threats to the system, you are not the only threat to the system, and you are because you've stated that you are agressors ever since the Machines changed their mandate towards Zion. The Intruder is such a threat and is directly relevant to the argument. When he first arrived he managed to disrupt the lives of bluepills in the vicinity, creating panic and a disturbance. His appearance could cause some people to summarily reject the simulation, ie killing them. His powers of controlling System programs are a direct threat as System Agents are there to protect the system. Granted, the bloody Cypherites provoked it but that doesn't mean that it is a force for peace. Until it's intentions are made clear it will be viewed as a threat to the Simulation and the Bluepills.

If you really care for bluepills the way Zion says it does you would be concerned about it too.

Q: Why do you serve as Machinist operatives?
A: To protect the System and the bluepills therein.

Correct, the most basic goal we have. I am pleased that you wrote it, but do you understand it, really?

Q: And what exactly are you protecting them from?
A: Whatever threatens them.

 ...and the system they rely on to live...

Q: Why, then, are Zionites being targeted? In what way have we threatened bluepills and the System?
A: You have been labelled enemies of the System by the Machine.

 You have labelled yourselves enemies of the system. 'They have us dead to rights'... remember who said that?

Q: Why have we been labelled enemies of the System? Why do you consider the mandate of the System an ultimate authority in this situation?

A: Because I believe they are the ultimate authority. Morality and justice stems through them. You have been labelled enemies of the System because you broke the Truce.

Your continued actions against the rules of the system makes the case for your labelling. Yes you broke the truce, an action that was seen as hostile to the eyes of the Machines and Machinists alike. Your suggested answer to this has come from your own imagination.

Q: Ah, but how did we break the Truce again? Because the Machine said that we broke the Truce? Since they are the ultimate source of morality and justice, might anything we have done be seen as a breach of the Truce, if their word is infallible?

A: You broke the truce by building a fortified city, a city which allows for strikes against Machine installation with no fear of retaliation. What did the Oracle say about the truce ending? She hammered out Zion's side... did she say that the Machines were lying?

Et cetera. It serves to find the root of your argument. Of course, in his day, many people assumed Socrates either wasn't listening, or that he should have been more satisfied with the hollow answers he was given...

It also serves to gain the correct answers instead of making up your own on our behalf....

Pardon me if I don't think truth has patience. It demands to be known, and this can be seen through the madness many bluepills spiral into when they are unable to find the answers they seek. Pardon me if I will not permit 30,000 human beings to go mad and become a danger to themselves and others, where there is a simple solution - generally the one they are seeking. It is a travesty that we are at "war," and as I have said before, and will, no doubt, say again, the existence of the war is contingent on the Machine will. They could end it at any time without repercussion, but will not. 

I still believe it's more like 60 million, rather than 30,000, but why quibble over numbers? 

We are at war because Zion wanted war.  They proved this by constructing a new, fortified city that they knew would bring about that war once it was discovered. 

Neoteny wrote:

And if I recall, you once made a statement along the lines of "I don't see much of a problem with the Cypherites,"

I was referring to Cypherite philosophy.  The Cyphs have every right to believe that nobody should be awakened, just as Zionites and Machinists and Mervs have every right to believe what they do. 

 Neoteny wrote:

 not to mention your escapades running into a Zion meeting uninvited and opening fire on the captains and liaisons gathered, killing a Captain of Zion. It is through your actions, not your views, that I have found you to act in a manner befitting a Cypherite. Prohibiting awakenings, killing Zion's redpills - they say if the glove fits...

If we had known that Zion captain's EJP wouldn't work, the Machinists there certainly wouldn't have attacked her.  (Also, if the log is checked, it can be clearly seen that I didn't attack that captain.)  We weren't at war then, after all!  But since we *are* at war now, I will continue to try to prevent bluepills from being awakened and kill any Zion redpill that threatens the stability of the Matrix.  Zion's selfish vendettas will not be allowed to harm the life support system for 99% of humanity.

Illyria

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race.  There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. 

Illyria 

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Can you prove that, if left alone to live their lives inside the simulation that all 600,000 bluepills will go mad and die? Neo lived just fine until he was released, and then he was a special case usually minds got released a lot younger. You don't have a precedent for saying that they will all go mad.

Mankinds right to freedom? Who gave us that right? Wrongful imprisonment?! Mankind as a whole committed acts of atrocities against sentient beings. Now that not only they survived but are the dominant race on the planet, why are you so surprised? Your actions are what are keeping Mankind 'locked up' in their own world in which they can live their lives like our ancestors... not a totally bad deal considering what Mankind tried to do with the Machines....

We protect them and the system so that when Mankind can prove that we are not a barbaric as we once were, and as a Race decide that we can live with the Machines and repair the damage we did to the earth... then there will still be a Humanity as we know it left

Prove? No, I am no scientist. But, allow me to redirect your question. Can you, given the examples of problems such as Anome's mother, prove that they won't?

All sentient life has a right to be free. I do not condone what our ancestors did to the first generations of self-aware machines. I believe the human society of that day was simply not prepared to deal with the philosophical ramifications of Machines as equal thinkers, when only the day before (metaphorically speaking, of course) those same machines were merely property. However, that is neither here nor there, and can't be changed no matter how fervently we wish for it to be.

So, accepting this right to freedom as truth, do you propose that mankind be punished for all eternity, with only a destiny of slavery and lies, for the sins of our fathers?

And how do you propose to console that which is inconsolable in matters of trust and peace? The Machines have made it perfectly clear that they will only trust humans so long as they can exercise control over us.

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race.  There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. 

Illyria 

Let me paraphrase: *CENSORED* the minority, so long as the status quo is upheld.

How noble. Surely you'll go down in the history books as one of the greatest contributing members of our species. 

ugh...    6 pages of this endless bickering...

its boiled down to "You need to behave!"  "I dont have to behave!"

Childish

Illyria22 wrote:

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

The lives -- or the mental health -- of an elite few do not outweigh the lives of the vast majority of the human race.  There is no caste system or apartheid here that says that an elite but tiny minority is better or more important than the billions (or millions) that make up the rest of the population. 

Illyria 

Let me paraphrase: *CENSORED* the minority, so long as the status quo is upheld.

How noble. Surely you'll go down in the history books as one of the greatest contributing members of our species. 

Vinia wrote:

ShiXinFeng wrote:

Hmmm. Putting aside mankind's inherent right to freedom and the crimes against humanity for wrongful imprisonment and enslavement, are you, Illyria (and Vinia too, for that matter), willing to risk 600,000 bluepills to madness and death just because the Machines say 'we are at war, don't allow any more awakenings'? Because by your own numbers, that is number of the 1% who naturally reject the lie of the Matrix.

Tell me again how you Toaster-lovers are all about the "protection of bluepills?"

Can you prove that, if left alone to live their lives inside the simulation that all 600,000 bluepills will go mad and die? Neo lived just fine until he was released, and then he was a special case usually minds got released a lot younger. You don't have a precedent for saying that they will all go mad.

Mankinds right to freedom? Who gave us that right? Wrongful imprisonment?! Mankind as a whole committed acts of atrocities against sentient beings. Now that not only they survived but are the dominant race on the planet, why are you so surprised? Your actions are what are keeping Mankind 'locked up' in their own world in which they can live their lives like our ancestors... not a totally bad deal considering what Mankind tried to do with the Machines....

We protect them and the system so that when Mankind can prove that we are not a barbaric as we once were, and as a Race decide that we can live with the Machines and repair the damage we did to the earth... then there will still be a Humanity as we know it left

So, accepting this right to freedom as truth, do you propose that mankind be punished for all eternity, with only a destiny of slavery and lies, for the sins of our fathers?

And how do you propose to console that which is inconsolable in matters of trust and peace? The Machines have made it perfectly clear that they will only trust humans so long as they can exercise control over us.

Neoteny wrote:

I don't get what the Intruder has to do with anything, at least concerning the topic we've been discussing, or why you folks keep accusing me of not reading anything. I've read every damned statement you've written, and made a response.

Exactly why I say you do not register what we say. I will make this as easy as I can for you. We protect the Bluepills against threats to the system, you are not the only threat to the system, and you are because you've stated that you are agressors ever since the Machines changed their mandate towards Zion. The Intruder is such a threat and is directly relevant to the argument. When he first arrived he managed to disrupt the lives of bluepills in the vicinity, creating panic and a disturbance. His appearance could cause some people to summarily reject the simulation, ie killing them. His powers of controlling System programs are a direct threat as System Agents are there to protect the system. Granted, the bloody Cypherites provoked it but that doesn't mean that it is a force for peace. Until it's intentions are made clear it will be viewed as a threat to the Simulation and the Bluepills.

If you really care for bluepills the way Zion says it does you would be concerned about it too.

This hadn't been mentioned before, and has little to do with this particular discussion, argument... whatever. Hell, this topic came about before the Intruder even entered the picture.

So, additionally, you're trying to protect the bluepills and the System from the Intruder... So? We're not the only threat, I get that. But my concern lay more with why our actions, as Zionites were considered hostile to the bluepills and, in the beginning, the System, as we had taken no action other than building a fortified city.

And, if you are going to launch the argument that a fortified city allows us to somehow take actions which were previously outside of the Truce (i.e. awakening more than the one percent), I again ask, why? Were we given any time to prove that we could avoid taking such actions? Have we since taken such actions? Where is any proof that Zion would have taken such actions under the Truce agreement? Why found a war on assumption?

Why found a war on assumption?

Neoteny wrote:

Why found a war on assumption?

Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...

And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct. Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion." We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.

And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.

It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it.

What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.

Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.

(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

Neoteny wrote:

Why found a war on assumption?

Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...

It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it.

Would you allow time to people who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.

The issue of the Intruder has been mentioned before, not by name but was implied when talking about threats to the system other than Zion and is more than relevant now. Conversations, debates and arguments are not limited to the past.

Sweetheart, you got it bad. I mean, seriously, how much of a dent do you think Zion could put in the Machine forces from way down in their little bunker-city? Could they destroy the Machine City? Could they destroy the Matrix even? Hell no, the only one who could do that was Neo, and he's not here any more, is he?

And, when you think about it, the only time they were really scared of Neo was when they thought they had lost control over him. The Power of the One is all the Machines fear, so unless. . .he's. . .

Oh.

Oh God.

*scrambles for an Exit*

null

Sweetheart, you got it bad. I mean, seriously, how much of a dent do you think Zion could put in the Machine forces from way down in their little bunker-city? Could they destroy the Machine City? Could they destroy the Matrix even? Hell no, the only one who could do that was Neo, and he's not here any more, is he?

Neoteny wrote:

Why found a war on assumption?

Why build a fortified city when, with the truce, such a city was unneeded. I can understand the need to expand for the benefit of Zion's population. However, the Machines did not show any sign of wanting to storm Zion's walls, in fact the city was planned for at the beginning of the truce... it was built even when you were showing the face of trust and cooperation. Your leadership did not even want the truce to continue into peace...

And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct.

Wrong According to Niobe

Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion."

Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it.

What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.

What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.

Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300014997

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300017153

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300016367

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015865

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300015253

http://forums.station.sony.com/mxo/..._id=36300014997

Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce.

Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.

(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.

It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Vinia wrote:

And the city's planning began when Anome locked Niobe away in a construct.

Wrong According to Niobe

I was thinking of this. So maybe it was thought up and worked on at the beginning of the Truce, but wasn't begun until the whole Anome incident. I think Niobe gives some fairly good reasons why what was done was done in that particular information feed, anyhow. But thanks for getting my facts straight.

Anyhow... This, again, is assumption. Zion never expressly came to the Machines and said "we wish to re-initiate hostilities, please attack us and destroy the city of Zion."

Lol! I don't think any wars start like that. They do start when truces get violated though and keeping it a secret didn't help much either....

If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.

The fact of the matter is that there were enough of us in Zion, including yours truly, who supported the Truce to an extreme degree that we would have deposed any attempts to subvert the Truce in a minimal timeframe. But the Machines didn't trust us to sort our own affairs, and so there is war.

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.

And I'll tell you why there is war. There is war because there is fear - not in the hearts of men who are brave enough to risk their one and only life to enter the Matrix to grant the human right of liberty, but in the cold, glowing red eyes of the steel Machine. The Machine who sees only the past, and only the evil. The Machine who fears war to the point that they would enact it. The Machine that values its power supply, not its fellow inhabitants of the planet earth.

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.

It is actions against the system which could affect the bluepills. You were first considered a threat to the system and by extension, the bluepills by your continued accessing of the system and your new found aggression to the owners of it.

What aggression? The continuation of operations which were perfectly legal during Truce-time and have since been demonized? Please specify.

What don't you get? Peace time operations were turned into prohibited operations.... yes that is aggressive saying that you will not abide by the prohibitations, so is attacking Machine programs and attempting to circumvent Machine security.

Also these records show that you are not just carrying on normal operations that were legal during peacetime;

Most, if not all show Zion engaging in combat with Agents and System security personnel. This was certainly not normal or legal during the truce.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Would you allow time to people (1) who you do not trust who gained a foothold into territory where they can attack you but you cannot get to them? If you would you are more naive than I thought. The Architects decision may have been rash, but (2) considering Mankind's violent history, he had basis for concern.

(1) If this is true, then we had already lost. It was evident enough with the Cypherites, but without trust, there is no possibility for peace. And make no mistake - trust in this scenario was not building, it was waning.

It is up to the untrusted to build trust. If the Machines trust was waning, you should have tried to increase it... you can't blame anyone but yourself.

Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggresive edge?

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.

I think so. Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.

Internal Zion Politics are, of course, something I'm not privvy to...

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?

Sometimes to gain trust one must show trust. Both sides are as stubborn as each other. However the request for access was made and in return, the offer of the Machine's increased data processing capability. This was to root out or flag any unstable Characters. This would benefit both Zion and Machines...

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

It doesn't mean there's no hope...it just means we're aware of the problems of our past, and we understand that we need to work to overcome them. 

Illyria

There is always hope though there are not always many who believe in it.

If you think a base is an act of hostility, and that we initiated the war near the beginning of the Truce, then maybe you ought to consider who was overwritten and for what purpose at about the same time. Then consider the kill differential between that particular group and the protective devices of New Zion.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggresive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

We built the city of New Zion for situations such as this - in case the Machines were to attack us, we might have a safe haven. If you might recall, the city was sparsely populated at the time of the termination of the Truce, and the children of Zion were still living in the mother city.

Your own self fulfilling Prophecy

Is it? We had no say in the matter of whether or not the strike would come. That was their choice, not ours. We were just prepared.

I think so. Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

So you were going to overthrow your own civilian and Military leaders?

You'd better believe I would have. I'd be willing to bet that most freeborns would have, too. Putting them at risk of war for nothing? That's a grave offense. But the fact of the matter remains that we didn't break the Truce. At least not by any means we were to understand.

Internal Zion Politics are, of course, something I'm not privvy to...

I cannot deny the fear of the Machines, but without fear Mankind would not have decided to build the new city right after the beginning of the truce. The Machines do not fear war, they fear being wiped out as any race would. If they did not value humankind the Machinists wouldn't be.

They're going to be "wiped out" by a bunch of humans in an inaccesible bunker? Pardon me if I find the notion laughable. As for valuation of humankind? They deny the option of extraction altogether now. I maintain that they're using you folks, and if it ever gets the point that we're all wiped out and you've outlived your usefulness, you'd better pray I'm wrong.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Who is the trusted, and who is the untrusted? You're only looking at it from their angle. Maybe they should've done more to increase our waning trust. After all, we were the party that had been duped by the Matrix and the recursive cycle of the One. We were the party that faced the threat of elimination in this war and wars past. But what they did was found a murderous organization known as the Cypherites and demand access to our mainframe. Surely they couldn't have thought asking for such access would increase our trust?

Sometimes to gain trust one must show trust. Both sides are as stubborn as each other. However the request for access was made and in return, the offer of the Machine's increased data processing capability. This was to root out or flag any unstable Characters. This would benefit both Zion and Machines...

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

(2) This runs back into the logic of all mankind being damned by original sin. Unless you're going to throw around Anome. But it has been my experience that "history" is talking about the very first war. Again, it makes the case that there could never have been a true peace, and that war was inevitable.

No, this runs back through Mankinds entire history, not just the Man-Machine war. Mankind has shown violent tendancies throughout it's history towards itself and others.

Either way, you're saying there's no hope.

There is always hope..... Mankind has the ability to evolve... unfortunately it takes time or something quite significant to do it.

((Forum quote trees went a bit funny.... >.< ))

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.


Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.

This is connotation, exactly what I did not ask for. This is your belief about the reasoning behind the EMP defenses of New Zion, this is not the function of an EMP. What does an EMP do? It deactivates Mechanical equipment. What does a static, but perpetual EMP do? It deactivates anything mechanical that comes near it.

If the Machines can see need to launch overtly aggressive and subversive operations against Zion operatives in order to "protect" the agreement limiting Zion to one percent, and it is considered by you to be perfectly legal within the bounds of the Truce, then why is a covert defensive EMP shield designed by Zion to protect the part of the Truce keeping the Machines from attacking us a dismissal of it?

Either way, it's enforcing the Truce by taking it into your own hands, and I submit that if you are to defend the Machines actions in creating the Cypherites, then you must defend the actions of Zion creating New Zion, or be a hypocrit.

Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

You're just going back on your word here. You said above that you saw that nothing within New Zion could be considered a threat, and only now you contradict yourself to say that we could launch some sort of attacks from hovercraft within the city. And the Machines have quite called it a weapon. What do you think "disarm" means? We've already come to the conclusion that they must have been talking about the city - since when has anything considered "defensive" been called a weapon? If you've got a shield, it's a shield, if you've got an armor, it's armor, if you've got a gun, it's a weapon. They consider it a weapon, though I insist that it is quite purely defensive. You even agreed with me above when you acknowledge New Zion as a bunker. A bunker is by no means an offensive structure, now, is it? Unless it suddenly, by means of a changing definition has become one according to you.

There is absolutely nothing just or necessary about this war. I didn't even need to prove that - you did it for me when you said that nothing within New Zion was a threat. You can attempt to go back on it all you'd like, but I read your words quite clearly.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

The Cyphs were created to ensure that Zion was acting within the details of the truce by not awakening more than the allotted 1% and wasn't it Veil that gave them the more aggressive edge?

Acting to enforce the Machine side of the Truce, right? What do you think New Zion was designed to do? I'm not asking for connotations here, I'm not asking what people might have done with what it provides. I'm asking for what it actually, physically does.

Ok, what does it do.... It prevents Machine retaliation to any aggressive act you may or may not attempt. It allows for Zion hovercraft to be launched from for any planned operation, including accessing the simulation which is now prohibited to you, and return to without reprisal.

This is connotation, exactly what I did not ask for. This is your belief about the reasoning behind the EMP defenses of New Zion, this is not the function of an EMP. What does an EMP do? It deactivates Mechanical equipment. What does a static, but perpetual EMP do? It deactivates anything mechanical that comes near it.

If the Machines can see need to launch overtly aggressive and subversive operations against Zion operatives in order to "protect" the agreement limiting Zion to one percent, and it is considered by you to be perfectly legal within the bounds of the Truce, then why is a covert defensive EMP shield designed by Zion to protect the part of the Truce keeping the Machines from attacking us a dismissal of it?

Either way, it's enforcing the Truce by taking it into your own hands, and I submit that if you are to defend the Machines actions in creating the Cypherites, then you must defend the actions of Zion creating New Zion, or be a hypocrit.

The Machines had every right to protect the agreement hammered out between the two Sides. They were ensuring that you stayed within the limits of the agreement. It's laughable for you to say that you are protecting a part of a truce with the EMP's. There is no truce if both sides do not agree on it. The violation committed by building covertly a base which has the capability of doing all the things I have previously mentioned rendered it obsolete. The EMP's do not apply to any part of the truce. In which section did it say that Zion can awaken 1% of Bluepills who reject the simulation and by doing this they can build a wall of EMP's to protect a fortified base.... You cannot enforce a truce if one does not exist any more and it does not exist any more because Zion knowingly broke it, why else was it constructed in secret?

Can you say for certain that the Machines would have attacked Zion if you hadn't built the new city?

Can the Machines say for certain that we would have gone beyond the 1% if they hadn't declared war? There was more evidence (the Machine bulidup near the city of Zion) that they would attack Zion than there was evidence that we would attempt to circumvent the agreement of the Truce.

I take it from your lack of answer to my question that you can't. What I will say is that the Cyphs were created to ensure compliance. However, remember that the Cyphs, regardless of who created organised, were and still are Human. The aggressiveness came from Veil, not the overwritten Cryptos.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Outside for over a year, and didn't attack when their forces were strongest.... yet New Zion was completed as soon as the Machines lost huge numbers in the battle against the General. Coincidence....

But I cannot prove what you are asking me and you cannot prove what I was asking you it seems that while we a posturing here the war is continuing....

Whilst you are inside that 'bunker' (is that finally the acceptance to what it is... very warlike....) I don't believe you are any threat to The Machines or the Simulation... it's your activities outside which presents the issue. As for the issue of Machinists outliving our usefulness... that'll probably happen long after I expire, in any way I'l keep Gray at his word, that our future is not dependant on Zion's

I'm submitting to your terminology for the sake of my argument. If it's a bunker, it doesn't have any mobile capability, and does not have any attack capability, thus rendering the Machine definition of it as an offensive weapon completely false. And, if you admit that we are not a threat, then why the war? All of the activities we are undergoing were made illegal or necessary to restore normally legal activies due to the war. Without the war, which you have proven to be frivelous by your own logic, there is no cause for all of the activities you now justify the war by. Thus you have reached the conclusion that the war is unjust and unnecessary on your own.

I've never claimed that it had mobile capability, it does have attack capability, it can attack Machine units that close in on it. Those weapons... defensive to you are offensive to the Machines. In any case the Machines didn't call it an offensive weapon, but it is a place of safety from which attacks via weapons platforms (i.e. hovercraft) can be mounted and return to with no fear of reprisal. Therefore it is a threat. I can see why you keep denying this basic fact, if you admit it then you would have admitted that the war is completely just and necessary.

You're just going back on your word here. You said above that you saw that nothing within New Zion could be considered a threat, and only now you contradict yourself to say that we could launch some sort of attacks from hovercraft within the city. And the Machines have quite called it a weapon. What do you think "disarm" means? We've already come to the conclusion that they must have been talking about the city - since when has anything considered "defensive" been called a weapon? If you've got a shield, it's a shield, if you've got an armor, it's armor, if you've got a gun, it's a weapon. They consider it a weapon, though I insist that it is quite purely defensive. You even agreed with me above when you acknowledge New Zion as a bunker. A bunker is by no means an offensive structure, now, is it? Unless it suddenly, by means of a changing definition has become one according to you.

There is absolutely nothing just or necessary about this war. I didn't even need to prove that - you did it for me when you said that nothing within New Zion was a threat. You can attempt to go back on it all you'd like, but I read your words quite clearly.

Obviously not very well. My main point being that inside new Zion, nothing is a threat, but the EMP's are located on the outside, and Hovercraft leave New Zion. If everything and everyone in New Zion stayed inside... I, personally can't see a problem.... but in order to access the Simulation you have to be outside New Zion. as I said, it is your activities outside New Zion and the ability for it to harbour hovercraft that can or have committed illegal activities that causes concern.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

The actions you are undertaking to regain the privileges you have lost and are now illegal for you are aggressive counteractions to law set out by the Machines in their territory. Its that simple. How can I make it simpler. Old Earth, two countries enjoying cooperation, allowing citizens to travel through one another. If they go to war and they close their borders, citizens wont still travel through suggesting that if it was legal in peace time... why isn't it now.....

But they knew we did not trust them, or their motives. Why not ask for this data at a more critical moment? Why now? Why after a radical Zionite had taken actions against them, likely decreasing their trust towards us? And there is the answer. Their motive was a lack of trust - they did not believe we could sort our own affairs. And why should a lack of trust lead to a trusting action? The answer is that it does not, and it leads to quite the opposite, as was shown.

But you didn't sort out your own affairs.... it took the Machines to sort it out then offer their hand in objective, mutual benefit to both parties. Again to trust someone there has to be a first step made... and the Machine's offer allowed you to take the step.... but your own distrust ruined any chance of that.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Well keep your business away from impacting on the simulation and there will be no cause for them to poke into it.... The simulation and the bluepills are their business... yet you continue to poke your noses into it.... live and let live....?

Oh, I quite believe that there is always hope. However, by the logic that you and Procurator have used, in the eyes of the Machine, humankind will never have hope for redemption. They will always be pock marked by the sins of another race, and exhibit "violent tendencies" which have been branded a part of nature and carry a perceived permenance. Where's the hope there? If we are all branded sinners at birth, and are condemend without hope of redemption, how may we find it?

We don't have the time to "evolve." We have the time to live, and the time to rebel against this caste system. We've got until we die, or until they change their minds - whichever comes first. Given this war and your logic, I'm not putting my money on the latter.

Do you have any idea what Machinists are trying to do? We are trying to prove to the Machines that Mankind can change. Mankind can evolve but that doesn't mean that we can't try to show the Machines that, regardless of Human Nature, Humans can be cooperative, peaceful and unprejudiced before then. All of our work is placed in jeopardy because of your 'rebelling' against the system. It is you and yours who are drawing out the war for everyone, Machines, Redpills and Bluepills....

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

Progress?!... what progress have you achieved? The only progress Mankind made when Neo implemented the truce... peace between Man and Machine. But from actions by you and yours, we have taken a step back, work Machinists have done to provide a stable foundation of trust between Man and Machine has been placed in jeopardy because of them. Thankfully, the Machines still have an open mind and don't associate your actions with us. Without Order there is Chaos, on old Earth there were governments, military and police. Orders were given, Laws were made and adhered to by the civilians yet it was acceptable... You also take orders from your superiors do you not? Yet this is exactly what you are fighting against.

True peace is obtained by cooperation and understanding.

You're missing the point entirely.

If the machines have a right to protect part of the agreement, have we no right to protect what is another part of the agreement? Pardon me if I am wrong, but wasn't it a part of the agreement that Machine would not harm human, and human would not harm Machine? If you can see the formation of the Cypherites as well within the bounds of the Truce, whereas it violates the other portion of it ("protects" the 1% agreement, infringes upon the no side killing the other agreement) how do you see Zion building fortifications as outside the bounds of the Truce? It protects the "no side killing the other" agreement, and possibly infringes upon the 1% agreement, though, I'll add there was never any proof of the latter.

By your logic, the Machines broke the Truce far before we did. You're simply not acknowledging it because it does not support your side.

Given the fact that they declared war and destroyed Zion within as short a timeframe as they did, I'd postulate that it was premeditated. Can I say for certain? No, of course not. But it's quite more than likely, especially with the half a million sentinels that had been camped right outside the city for more than a year.

Can you prove that we would've gone beyond the limits of the Truce simply because we were living in a new city? I've already told you that I would have rebelled against the administration along with many others had they submitted to such a policy, and we had already disowned EPN on the grounds that they had been exacting this policy - I'd say that's pretty good evidence that we meant to remain within the boundaries of the Truce concerning awakenings. But you, and they, don't care, do you? You place such an emphasis on our history - perhaps they should have reviewed that part about the public reaction to the Vietnam War.

As for Cypherites - if the Machines created them and oversaw them, don't you think they should have exerted some sort of control over their techniques and activities if they saw them as too extreme? But they didn't. They didn't care that they killed our operatives. They endorsed it, and continued to endorse it during the Truce, after the cat was out of the bag, as Veil lead the Cypherites. Oh, they hoped Cryptos might come back, but they were willing enough to continue on with Veil.

Outside for over a year, and didn't attack when their forces were strongest.... yet New Zion was completed as soon as the Machines lost huge numbers in the battle against the General. Coincidence....

But I cannot prove what you are asking me and you cannot prove what I was asking you it seems that while we a posturing here the war is continuing....

You said it yourself that New Zion was planned out near the end of the Truce - thereby its time of completion (well, it wasn't even complete, by the way) is completely coincidental.

No one can say anything for certain, in absolute. But what's there a better case for? What's there more evidence towards? We gave them the benefit of the doubt with their sentinels for a great length of time - and what did we get in return when we had a "potentially dangerous" situation? No benefit of the doubt - they simply used that which we had given the benefit of the doubt to.

Obviously not very well. My main point being that inside new Zion, nothing is a threat, but the EMP's are located on the outside, and Hovercraft leave New Zion. If everything and everyone in New Zion stayed inside... I, personally can't see a problem.... but in order to access the Simulation you have to be outside New Zion. as I said, it is your activities outside New Zion and the ability for it to harbour hovercraft that can or have committed illegal activities that causes concern.

Right, but what was the war started based on? New Zion, right? If nothing within New Zion is a threat, then there should never have been a war. And it was the war which rendered hovercraft and Matrix operations hostile, wasn't it? If there were no war, hovercraft and Matrix operations would not be illegal. And if New Zion's not a threat, as you've said, then why the war? What's the point?

You're not admitting it, but you've already stated it - the war is a lie founded on false pretexts.

Oh, and if you're making the case for ships that would have been flagged as illegal during the Truce - I've already said that we'd rebel against a leadership which went against the Truce, I've already told you that we'd disowned EPN to uphold the Truce - what evidence is there to suggest that we would harbor anyone committing illegal activities? That's all assumption - the kind of assumption that leads to unjust, unfounded genocidal wars.

Right, we're carrying out operations to restore protocols which were perfectly legal during peacetime. Pardon me once more if I find your notion that these operations are "aggressive" in any manner laughable. As for our combatting Agents and Machine Programs? They're enforcing the Machine edict, of course we're going to fight them. Combat is to be expected among opposing parties during war, and is to be discouraged during a time of peace. That's just a flip of a switch there, as far as programs are concerned.

Perfectly legal privileges that were given to you by the Machines and then taken away. They are aggressive in the form that you are trying to take back the privileges without permission from those in control of the system.

Again, taken away why? For reasons you have proven to be unjust and unfounded.

Taken away from you due to your blatant and obvious violation of the truce as I have already mentioned thus proving that the reasons are just and founded.

You contradicted yourself. There's a difference. Either way, you've proven that these demonized operations are irrelevant to your argument, and hard to classify as "aggressive" being that they are only trying to re-establish things common during Trucetime. If it's something you could use while there's peace, why would it be considered hostile, anyhow? That simply doesn't make sense.

The actions you are undertaking to regain the privileges you have lost and are now illegal for you are aggressive counteractions to law set out by the Machines in their territory. Its that simple. How can I make it simpler. Old Earth, two countries enjoying cooperation, allowing citizens to travel through one another. If they go to war and they close their borders, citizens wont still travel through suggesting that if it was legal in peace time... why isn't it now.....

They also tell their citizens that they're at war. Whereas these citizens know nothing - not even that they are prisoners to a dictatorial nation. Somem will hop the berlin wall, others will not. Most won't even see it. But we're not their citizens, no no. We've never been.

By what has happened and what you have said, you're saying that after an enemy nation has destroyed a relay tower, the nation attacked has no right to rebuild it.

Priviledge? Hah. We did it before the Truce, during the Truce, and we will do it now.

Let me spell it out for you. We don't like other people poking into our business. Had we turned over that information, the Machines would have been in control. We don't want them to be in control. We want to be in control of our own matters. The Machines have proven that they are control freaks and to give them that much information would have been problematic.

Well keep your business away from impacting on the simulation and there will be no cause for them to poke into it.... The simulation and the bluepills are their business... yet you continue to poke your noses into it.... live and let live....?

Oh, but we were permitted to impact the simulation, were we not? Poking into their business would be much like asking about the politics and schematics of Zero One - sending spy ships to look around there for vulnerabilities. But we never did that, now, did we?

As long as the Matrix is populated by human beings, I will never consider it a territory belonging to the Machines.

What change? You're not progressing, you're regressing. You've gone back to submitting your entire lives to their control, to give into the caste system. You're not working towards equality, you're taking orders and willingly acknowledging yourselves as inferior.

But pardon me for not laying down and dying to end the war. Pardon me for believing in progress. Pardon me for believing we should have rights. Pardon me for believing we should have freedom. Pardon me for believing we should be the autonomous beings we were created as. Pardon me for believing we should have true peace.

This never was a war. It always has been and always will be a redpill genocide.

Progress?!... what progress have you achieved? The only progress Mankind made when Neo implemented the truce... peace between Man and Machine. But from actions by you and yours, we have taken a step back, work Machinists have done to provide a stable foundation of trust between Man and Machine has been placed in jeopardy because of them. Thankfully, the Machines still have an open mind and don't associate your actions with us. Without Order there is Chaos, on old Earth there were governments, military and police. Orders were given, Laws were made and adhered to by the civilians yet it was acceptable... You also take orders from your superiors do you not? Yet this is exactly what you are fighting against.

True peace is obtained by cooperation and understanding.

Again I tell you I supported the Truce until its dying day. I worked closely with Machines and Machinists alike. The step back was taken by the Machines - when they declared an unjust war which is indeed nothing more than a thinly veiled redpill genocide. We take orders, but we question them. In example, quite a time ago we were asked to undertake an operation for the General and we did, after much questioning. Following the operation, which was quite clearly a mistake, all involved agreed that we would never again do errands for the General. And we never did. I've seen few Machinists who have neglected to work with Cypherites when ordered, or who have questioned anything at all ordered of them. As a matter of fact, this is my point against the operation shown here - you were ordered to kill, and did so without thinking, without questioning.

There will never be understanding without questioning. Know that.

I see that this debate has been going around in circles. Neither of us is going to change our opinions at any time soon. I have a hope that this Intruder as a blessing in disguise, that a common foe will force cooperation between Zion and Machines and will lead to a new Truce. Perhaps I am aiming too high in my hopes, time will tell. What I will continue to do is to work with the Machines to provide a future for Mankind. I can see no benefit in continuing this debate any longer.

Fat chance. I'm not throwing my lot in with the Machines this time anyway. We've already helped them sort enough of their problems in the Matrix - we don't owe them a *CENSORED* thing anymore. If he wants to take down the Matrix? That's his deal. I'm not going to stop him, and I'd discourage any Zionites from trying to do so.

Real peace is not the result of a temporary alliance. The genocidal tendencies of the Machines will not be forgiven and certainly will not be fogotten so easily.

But you're right on one point, and that is that this "argument" is going nowhere due to your stubbornness. It will show its use in the future, however, as the extended argument of the Machine has failed to hold up and in effect undermines itself.