[8.3.4] It's a dark day for you, dearies - Recursion - 10/30/07

 
I must say things are going nicely, darlings. If we can keep it up at this rate, soon the snoozers will sleep snug in their beds without any nasty old Zionites around to bother them.
 
xox Veil xox

PS -- Ooh, and special hugs for deviljonnny and Salyut! ;)
 
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hmmh... I don't know what's more tragic. That we've lost three good soldiers, people, human beings, or that many whom were once considered allies, even friends, have now become that which we, they, once despised. There are names who were a part of this operation which I cannot believe. War - it kills the mind sometimes. In more ways than the preferred Cypherite method.

We'll recoup our losses and, hopefully, the rest of our damned vets will get the idea and stay out of the Matrix. I've got an idea for some payback, too...

And, though our team was too late to stop any of these killings, or even know what was going on until after they had occurred, it was... satisfying... appearing right in the middle of the congregated Cypherite masses, and frightening them away. Veil never did give me the coordinates of her ship, though... Ah well, that hunt'll just have to continue along the parallel it's always continued along.

We're going to get you. It's all a matter of time.

...the rest of our damned vets will get the idea and stay out of the Matrix.

Neoteny wrote:

...the rest of our damned vets will get the idea and stay out of the Matrix.

That's the issue right there. If you can get the vulnerable ones out of the Matrix, we can avoid all this killing. We're just defending the Machines' territory, that's all. And keeping your vets out will probably have the nice side-effect of annoying the Cypherites too. (Well, until they can find a way into New Zion at any rate. I'd rather like to stop the Cypherites managing that - we Machinists could take care of the situation without going completely overboard.)

All I mean is that you can't expect to get away with entering the Matrix. You were warned God knows how many times to get out, but when we start acting on our threats you cry foul!

Agreed.

The Matrix belongs to the Machines.  It is their creation and policed by their resources.  Zion was permitted to enter to obtain those who wanted to leave but now that is no longer permitted.

Enter the Matrix, at your own risk. 

...I see no reason to respect theirs.

But I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would have no trouble with Zion killing Machinists, Cypherites or destroying Machines that incroach on their territory. All I mean is that you can't expect to get away with entering the Matrix. You were warned God knows how many times to get out, but when we start acting on our threats you cry foul!

I'll grant you that we were warned many times.  Hell, I wish I'd never have to go back in.  The sad part is that we have to.  In today's day and age, the flow of information is the one key to living and surviving.  Zion has to have that in order to be able to defend itself.  We have sentinels attacking us, the Merovingian plotting against us in both the Matrix and in the Real.  Recruits can only be taken from the Matrix itself in order to bolster our ranks.  But this matters not to you, because you are a Machinist, on the opposing side.  I can only hope that you or others will understand and through that understanding, eventually it may lead to peace or someone's death.  Which of those it will be, is in the hands of the Machines' and in Zion High Command.

((Last time I checked, the only people who can jack in to the Matrix are those who were actually pulled from it, but I'm not positive.  Let me know if that's right or wrong please!))

If New Zion wasn't the threat it is, you wouldn't need to defend yourselves, you wouldn't need to bolster the ranks in your military. We had a truce that lasted a fair while and, sure both sides were wary of each other and making minor infractions on the truce. There was never any evidence that the Machines wanted to attack and wipe out Zion whatsoever. The Machines were watching, possibly out of interest in the species, probably to try to make sure that their own interests weren't being threatened.

It was in fact the Zion military's paranoia that fuelled the planning of the new city, even with the knowledge that it was against the truce. Did they really think that it wouldn't get noticed. It was good planning that got them as far as it did without being found out.

But New Zion is a threat, and make no bones about it, we are at war. To win at war you must either defeat the opposition entirely (exactly what the Machines are working toward) or make peace with mutual benefits for all sides concerned but it requires all sides to communicate, and thus far even with all of the opportunities given, Zion continues down the road of agression.

If New Zion wasn't the threat it is, you wouldn't need to defend yourselves, you wouldn't need to bolster the ranks in your military. We had a truce that lasted a fair while and, sure both sides were wary of each other and making minor infractions on the truce. There was never any evidence that the Machines wanted to attack and wipe out Zion whatsoever. The Machines were watching, possibly out of interest in the species, probably to try to make sure that their own interests weren't being threatened.

It was in fact the Zion military's paranoia that fuelled the planning of the new city, even with the knowledge that it was against the truce. Did they really think that it wouldn't get noticed. It was good planning that got them as far as it did without being found out.

But New Zion is a threat, and make no bones about it, we are at war. To win at war you must either defeat the opposition entirely (exactly what the Machines are working toward) or make peace with mutual benefits for all sides concerned but it requires all sides to communicate, and thus far even with all of the opportunities given, Zion continues down the road of agression.

Oh yes, the whole lay down our arms and be welcomed in open arms by the Machines' argument.  I've heard it before and I believe not a single word of it.  Let's look at some facts here.  The Machines' have control over most of the planet and are generally the organization with the most power.  The Matrix is their own creation and they are the ones maintaining it, which means they hold most of the power in that respect.  In the Real, it is the swarms of sentinels that our hovercraft must avoid in order to travel.  If the Machines truly wanted peace, they would have to be the ones who extended their arms for it.  I do not call telling your enemy to lay down their weapons and comply, a gesture of peace.  Zion cannot communicate with the "ultimatums" it receives.  There is no verbal exchange in this.  It is either do it this way, or die.

Yes, we are at war.  I have already said this, but I do not know if you truly realize what it means to be in war.  So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

Pyraci wrote:

...I see no reason to respect theirs.

It's that same train of thought that got so many senior Zionite operatives killed this past week. You might consider respecting the threat, even if you won't back away from it.

That would never stop anything. They declared us to have broken the Truce - they destroyed Zion, and now they're doing all they can to kill as many of our operatives as possible. You really think staying out of the Matrix would solve this problem? Maybe it'll help our vets stay alive until they get their jacks reconfigured, but other than that, I fail to see any sign of the Machines halting attacks of any sort simply because Zion has withdrawn from the Matrix.

They started a war which they intend to end in only one way - the eradication of Zion.

In the mean time, I'll not stand by and let them keep the truth from being told, freedom granted to those who seek it. In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., "An unjust law is no law at all," and I've no problem with defying laws determined to perpetuate the injustice done to the human power plant, denying them their birthright to life, liberty, and the pursuit of true happiness.

We'll keep the vets out for now. Not because we're respecting the law of the Machine. *CENSORED* the Machine. But because we're doing what we've always set out to do - save lives. And I can guarantee you that those vets'll be back out there as soon as they can to continue that job, to satisfy not only their duty as a soldier of Zion, but their duty as a human being.

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

...even with the knowledge that it was against the truce.

So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

their duty as a human being.

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

And so the wheel continues to turn powered by presumptions, distrust and paranoia.  This isn't getting us anywhere.

Keep in mind that the lives you attempt to save are already safe.  It is because you enter and try to remove them that their lives become endangered.  It is unnecessary to risk yours and theirs.  They will not come to harm.  Let them be while things are as chaotic as they are.  Once peace, or some form of it, returns then you can retrieve them.

There is nothing more permanent than death.  There is no truth or liberty that can bring you back to us. 

((...RP post to come later ...))

Croesus wrote:

...even with the knowledge that it was against the truce.

And your argument dies, right there.

And so the wheel continues to turn powered by presumptions, distrust and paranoia.  This isn't getting us anywhere.

Keep in mind that the lives you attempt to save are already safe.  It is because you enter and try to remove them that their lives become endangered.  It is unnecessary to risk yours and theirs.  They will not come to harm.  Let them be while things are as chaotic as they are.  Once peace, or some form of it, returns then you can retrieve them.

There is nothing more permanent than death.  There is no truth or liberty that can bring you back to us. 

There was never any evidence that the Machines wanted to attack and wipe out Zion whatsoever. The Machines were watching, possibly out of interest in the species, probably to try to make sure that their own interests weren't being threatened.

Pyraci wrote:

...I see no reason to respect theirs.

It's that same train of thought that got so many senior Zionite operatives killed this past week. You might consider respecting the threat, even if you won't back away from it.

Oh yes, the whole lay down our arms and be welcomed in open arms by the Machines' argument.  I've heard it before and I believe not a single word of it.  Let's look at some facts here.  The Machines' have control over most of the planet and are generally the organization with the most power.  The Matrix is their own creation and they are the ones maintaining it, which means they hold most of the power in that respect.  In the Real, it is the swarms of sentinels that our hovercraft must avoid in order to travel.  If the Machines truly wanted peace, they would have to be the ones who extended their arms for it.  I do not call telling your enemy to lay down their weapons and comply, a gesture of peace.  Zion cannot communicate with the "ultimatums" it receives.  There is no verbal exchange in this.  It is either do it this way, or die.

Yes, we are at war.  I have already said this, but I do not know if you truly realize what it means to be in war.  So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

Speaking of distrust and paranoia, this same argument could be used against the Machine.

Neoteny wrote:

their duty as a human being.

Would you care to define this, please?

Neoteny wrote:

In the mean time, it seems as though I might as well start giving the Machinists a taste of the Cypherite routine, too. Maybe it's not too late for them to realize what they're becoming if we jump far ahead enough that they'll snap back.

You're still comparing us to Cypherites, eh? Painting us with one brush doesn't do either of us any justice. I'm not twisted, and I'm sure the Cypherites don't want their achievements - if they can be called that - diminished by equating them to us.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

Then go tell the fed to consider respecting our threat. But it's alright either way. Karma will complete it's cycle as it always does. Those officers didn't die in vain.

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

If the Machines truly wanted peace, they would have to be the ones who extended their arms for it. 

They did.  They did it before the original war, multiple times, and humans refused to live in peace with them.  And they did it when Neo brokered the truce, when they could have easily let their sentinels destroy Zion once the threat from Smith was over. 

 Cykosis wrote:

Yes, we are at war.  I have already said this, but I do not know if you truly realize what it means to be in war.  So far, Zion has acted weak, and pacifistic compared to the ways that it really could.  I say we unleash the dogs of war and teach you the horrors that are really possible.  Make no mistake, we can stress your precious system and burn it down around you.  An example may have to be made so that the Machines are forced to come back to true negotiations to realize that you need us to play nice.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

Cykosis wrote:

I want peace.  I hate war and truly wish that Machines and Humans can put aside their differences to start tackling the truly important problems we face.  I want to be able to see the real Sun sometime throughout my life.  Unfortunately, with attitudes such as yours, that may never happen.

Perhaps people with attitudes like these -- who would attempt to blackmail the Machines by threatening the system and the lives of all their bluepill brothers and sisters -- don't deserve to see the real sun.

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

You're killing our operatives, are you not? Spare your justification, which, according to my previous statement is no justification at all, since it bares with it no justice, there is no difference between the two now. You both get the same orders from the same people, you're both soldiers on the same side of the war. Until now, the only thing deliminating the two was that Machinists hesitated to kill Zion operatives, but that seems to have changed all too easily.

You're slipping, and if you haven't noticed that, you've already hit the bottom. The inability to recognize the human duty to protect and care for the rest of the human race in security, liberty, and right is a sign of this as well. That is how they do things. They neglect them their right to make their own choices, and in doing so, deny them their humanity.

I remember the initial confusion among Machinists at the onset of the war. I am disgusted at how many who were concerned with the overbearing and offending Machine policies and ideals no longer even question their own orders. They kill on command. It's a shame, really. I believe that many would have revolted, had the Machines destroyed Zion toward the beginning of the war. They would have seen it for the calamity and devestation that it was. However, as the war has waged on, so have minds given in and slipped away.

What Vinia said. Just as well she said it, too, 'cos I'm getting pretty tired of having to point out the obvious differences between Machinists and Cypherites again and again.

Seriously, how can you even suggest that we're stooping to their level? 'Cos we've started killing people instead of jacking them out temporarily? We're responding to an (admittedly minimal) threat, whereas the Cypherites just went ahead and killed whoever they want. They don't act under orders: they have a general idea of what the Machines want, and execute these wishes in the most horrific, violent and gruesome way possible, enjoying every moment of it. I know I make fun of the Pestilence every now and then, but to compare us to Cypherites is downright insulting.

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

You should feel insulted. The Cypherites are disgusting creatures. The fact that Machinists are becoming Cypherites is equally disgusting.

I suggest that you are stooping to their level by killing. Merely because you do not delight in it does not change the fact that you have killed, and will kill again. I'm sure you would find no "non-violent" means of "achieving a goal" concerning our veteran operatives due to the fact that this goal was specifically to kill them. What alternative is there other than disobediance to an unjust edict?

The Cypherites are doing the same thing, following the same orders, if not in a different manner. It has always been this way. You cannot tell me that the Cypherite sabotage of Zion merely coincided with the Machine invasion. You cannot tell me that Cryptos was not controlled by the Machines. You cannot tell me that he does not still receive orders from them, though now, of course, he has a bit more of a mind to choose how it's done.

It seems to me that the Machinists are Cypherites who neglect to question the orders given, as even Cypherites take liberties with their orders, review them, consider them. How long until the Machines order Machinist craft to hunt down Zion vessels, now? Have we not already met in open combat? Your methodology does not support your ideology.

This war no longer has any room for "Machinists." In fact, it never did. As soon as they said "obey us or be destroyed along with Zion," and you complied, you became one of them.

The Machinist died with the Truce. Long live the Machine.

We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion --

Yeah, so dissapointed you went out and shot someone.

Mark my words, The Kid won't let the deaths of those Zion vets you people have been murdering go unpunished. And when we come for retribution, you'd better pray that your precious Agent Gray is there to help.

Cause otherwise. . .bang-bang.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

Were this our goal, do you not think that we would have taken measures to accomplish it by now? We have been at war for months - if we had any plan to cause massive destruction to the bluepills and the System, we would've enacted as soon as the war had kicked off, no? That would make sense, wouldn't it?

Who's more paranoid here? Those who fear war and receive it? Or those who fear destabalization and beckon it?

Moreover, is it truly paranoia if that which you fear comes to be, as it has here?

There is only a fine line that separates us from you and sooner or later you'll cross it too.  Mark my words.

Pyraci wrote:

Speaking of distrust and paranoia, this same argument could be used against the Machine.

Indeed, Ez.  Both sides exhibit the same tendencies.  Sadly it only takes communication to remedy and yet neither side seems to be interested in it.  This will not go well.

They did.  They did it before the original war, multiple times, and humans refused to live in peace with them.  And they did it when Neo brokered the truce, when they could have easily let their sentinels destroy Zion once the threat from Smith was over.  

Gee, thank you for the holier-than-thou attitude.  This is what really drives me crazy, this whole show of how everything you do is right, and everything we do is wrong.  You are a Machine now in that respect.  Everything you do is right because it fits with your view and your view is the only one that matters at all.  No compassion, understanding or even a WILLINGNESS to try and understand why we want to be free from control. 

How long must you hold that bogeyman of the original war over our heads?  Yes, the humans before the original war did it, and I agree that it was wrong (and stupid as well, I mean honestly, nuclear weapons against Machines?).  You are human as well, so does that mean that you chide yourself each day that your forebears were naughty and that you must be punished for it?  We know it was a mistake, we understand that.  Matters should have been handled much differently and I believe that is a lesson that we will all carry with us for the rest of humanity's future.  Neo brokered the truce, but realize that the Machines were willing to talk truce when they NEEDED him.  I have seen no evidence that the Machines' care at all more about humanity's future and existence other than where it affects themselves.  Show me a truly altruistic action and I may rescind that statement.  But in my eyes, you are trying to speak of the character behind the Machines' actions when you don't even know why take certain actions, as I do not presume to know all the reasons of Zion or the Machines'.

Oh, we realize what it means.  It means we are killing you inside the Matrix and outside it, when our biggest hope was that Zion would continue to abide by the truce so that a true and lasting peace would evolve.  We were so disappointed when we found out about New Zion -- the construction of that city was like Zion announcing "we will never trust the Machines, we don't want peace unless we can do whatever we want and not have to face the consequences".  So tell me, what dogs of war do you want to unleash, now that you're all in your bunker?  Thinking you can destroy the system is utterly laughable...but we do know it's possible for you to disrupt it, killing large numbers of bluepills in the process.  *That* is why New Zion was seen as a threat by the Machines, and why Zionite activities are now prohibited in the Matrix.  Don't think we're going to let that that threat go unchecked.

This is a neverending circle that people have already argued about.  Your perception about how Zion's construction of the city can be taken in that way...if you wish to be insecure.  I guess that insecurity is all that any of us hold on to at this moment.  Zion's insecurity about the Machines' ability to destroy them and the Machines' insecurity about not having that control over the last free human city.  Both are valid as the Machines' showed Zion that it can take over its city, and Zion now has a safer and more secure base that it could launch attacks from.  Regardless, I spoke out of anger.  It was improper for me to speak of violence in this fashion, but you do have to admit, Zion could launch more devastating attacks if it did not care about the bluepill population.

Perhaps people with attitudes like these -- who would attempt to blackmail the Machines by threatening the system and the lives of all their bluepill brothers and sisters -- don't deserve to see the real sun.

Again with the holier-than-thou attitude thinking that the Machines' do not blackmail or force people to act to their will.  You are naive and foolish to believe this.  Thankfully, its not up to you to decide who deserves what.

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Please. Save the sanctimonious attitude toward your fellow machinists for the morning pep-talks with your mirror, Procurator. You rant on and on about how you hate being compared to the Cypherites, and yet when it comes time for a little action you are all right there, rubbing elbows and patting backs and congratulating each other on a job well done, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

You're not so sick of them that you'll remove them from the system, now are you? Something about 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' right?

ARE YOU COMPLETELY INSANE!? When, on God's good Earth, have I EVER fought alongside the Cypherites by choice? Rub elbows, pat backs, congratulate...? I hate the- ((the following passage will not be typed as it would contravene the forum rules regarding moderate language))! I want to kill the little- ((again, passage removed))!

You ignorant little- ((and again. You seem to have riled Procurator up somewhat " width="15" height="15"> )). Have you not followed a single thing I've done? Have you completely forgotten my tirades against them ever since the Masked Men first appeared and destroyed my hovercraft, killing my crew? I must post one at least once a week. I despise them with my very being.

When Veil invaded the Syntax instance and began taking out senior Zion operatives in their little constructs - a task we Machinists already had well in hand - she found herself confronted by Colt. I stood at the sidelines, making no move to enter the battle. But what was I doing there? Out of the two high profile targets there, who did I yell at everyone else to kill? Veil!

The only thing stopping me from doing the job myself is the Simulation's engagement protocols. I physically can't attack them in the Matrix! But the moment I encounter a Cypherite hovercraft in the Real... I will destroy them.

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

GamiSB wrote:

Didn't stop you, Star, and other members from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

Actions speak louder then words. Yes even your little cheers from the side lines.

Oh and as for the choice comment, you arn't being held at gun point or have someone ready to pull your jack every time a mission comes up that has you side by side with them do you? Sorry but unless that is the case you and every other "disgusted" Machinest do have a choice not to follow Gray or Pace's orders when it comes to working with Cypherites.

...

I'll admit that the battle was a little frantic, but I feel I must point out a little something my operator caught in all the shouting that was going on:

Procurator: Go on, Gami!
Procurator: Never thought I'd root for an EPN...

I saw you fighting Veil. I was rooting for you, you idiot.

What's more, there was no one else from TGS in the Simulation at that time, so I'm not sure where you can summon those accusations from. And I can't help what other Machinists do. I stand by my belief that the majority of us hate the Cypherites, but how they weigh the respective threats of the Masked and the Pestilence is entirely up to them.

And no, I don't have someone pointing a gun at me. Contrary to what EPN and the Pestilence would like to believe, we Machinists have free will. Again, I can't speak for other Machinists on this particular matter, but I do not work with the Cypherites. Ever. I don't care what orders come down, I do not work with them.

Heard that, also could hear and see the bullets flying at me from other "anti Cyphs". Forgive me if I confuse faces in heated battle. ((oh yeah, stars in watchmen. my bad))

So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

kou_urake wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

You were an easier target also when I came back. Still went after Veil.

GamiSB wrote:

So if you don't have a gun aginst your head then I believe we have an anwser to your earlier quiestion. You have fought with them, you have sided with them. If I were to look through the Machine archive to find what critical mission you had worked I would find you fighting side by side with them. No matter how much you cry about it or deny it the fact remains that you have still made the choice to work with them when asked.

You want to outright contradict my word? Fine. Pray, produce evidence that I have worked with Cypherites. And you should know, before you generalise the actions of Machinists in their missions, that there have been missions I've refused to accept.

I'll admit that there have been instances where, say, the Cypherites have produced some vague report or a piece of questionable evidence, which has in turn resulted in the Machines planning an operation for us Machinists. By my definition, in such instances we are not working with Cypherites. Cypherites are absent from these operations, in fact! The Machines worked with them, then we worked with the Machines; these were not concurrent events but sequential ones.

GamiSB wrote:

kou_urake wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

You were an easier target also when I came back. Still went after Veil.

I know. Just making it clear - I don't work with Cypherites.

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.