[8.3.4] It's a dark day for you, dearies - Recursion - 10/30/07

GamiSB wrote:

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.

Eh? I'm not entirely sure how the Cypherites are paid by the Machines, but it isn't in the results of whatever operations the Machinists undertake. I don't give the Cypherites anything.

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Procurator wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night but just FYI your still working with them. Adding a middle man doesn't mean your not helping the supplier because your still handing over the money that gets sent off to them.

Eh? I'm not entirely sure how the Cypherites are paid by the Machines, but it isn't in the results of whatever operations the Machinists undertake. I don't give the Cypherites anything.

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

As I said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

As I said, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".

GamiSB wrote:

Right, you dont help get the work done that they also want done. You've never been an erran boy of the Machines to them or taken out a particular Zionite or EPN that was a bother to them as well. You clearly are not helping them fight Zion in this war.

Let me spell it out for you, your both being paid by the machines. You both have the same agendas. You are both working for the sake of the System and you both have the same enemy. You can't share these quailities and not claim to be working with them because even if you sat back and avoided every operation that was so much within a million meters of a Cypherite, by helping advance the agenda of the Machine you are helping advance the Cypherite agenda.

I think I see the issue here. You seem to be under the impression that Cypherite goals are the same as Machinists'. Machinists have varying goals, like restoring peace (we used to maintain it, until the Pestilence proved themselves a lost cause, so now we can only restore peace by shutting you up it seems), clearing the sky, understanding the Machines, improving the future for Man and Machine. Cypherites, on the other hand, are entirely self-serving. No longer able to strive for their supposed original goal of reinsertion, they now work for the organisation that pays the most - and naturally this is the Machines, as no one else can offer anything of equal value.

So the Machine is not at all intersted in clearing the Matrix of Zionites right now? Or makeing sure that there are no awakenings? Face it you two have more in common now then you can possibly imagine. Oh sure the Machine may hve a few things they alone want and the Cyphs as well but it all boils down to the same number one thing. Protecting the System.

They don't have idealistic goals like Machinists do; if they did they'd be Machinists. They want to see New Zion destroyed because they hate the place, not because they see it as a threat or because they want to restore peace. The Cypherite agenda is not the Machines'. However, the Machines hire them as mercenaries, and this is a sad fact that Machinists have long protested, to no avail. But we do protest. And though our protestations often fall on deaf ears, we stand by the Machines. I ask you to suggest an alternative. We can't go anywhere else because all other options are far worse.

Now see here is where you lost all credibility. Speaking on behalf of the Cypherites and claiming to know their motives. Did a Cypherite not just say that I was right and agree with me? Clearly your a a bit misinformed about them if not allowing your own bias to blind you from the truth. The Cypherites want what you want. A safe and terrorist free system. Why? Who cares, motives don't make an org the agenda does and the agenda is still the same. Merc or not my point still stands. You support the Machine, you suport who the Machine hires.

People like myself do our best to hinder the Cypherites. We do so without regard for the Machines' employment of them, and so far the Machines have not done anything other than enforce the engagement protocols that stop us from hurting the Cypherites in the Simulation. In my opinion, your argument that by helping the Machines we are helping the Cypherites is poor, and the weight you put on it is vastly overemphasised when you consider all the things we do against the Cypherites. Think of it this way: we do not co-operate.

And what exactly have you done "against" them. I hear you brag on and on about it yet not a word do I hear from any Cypherite about how some Machinest have been destoying their ships or hindering their work. Actully come to think of it the only times I hear of anything being done aginst the Cypherites by a Machinist is from the Machinist that is claiming to have done it. Hardly a realiable source especially when they are the only ones telling the story. Your argument has one major hole. If the Machine wants you to not attack Cypherites in their system what makes you think they allow it in the real? That Cypherite ship you suposidly just destoyed for all you know could have been getting orders on something Gray wanted done or looked into. How silly would you have looked if you took out the ship that was sent to find New Zion hmm?

((really the god mode "real" RP is getting old and other then what you and others say the story says your all good little soliders and haven't been attacking cyphs in the real. RP how ya want but dont expect me to bend over for ya when the story to date says otherwise and gives no mention to your "attacks". Show me where a Machinst has gotten told off for something they did to a Cyph or where a Cyph mentions being attacked by the Machines in the real and Ill acknoledge it but untill then it aint canon to the story thus far))

If we're the same, why are we still two distinct organisations? There are clear differences, differences I have repeated over and over very clearly, yet differences you refuse to accept. If you persist in this jaded and dogmatic view of us, I pity you.

Why is there more then one Machie faction? Diffrent motives same agenda. Think of the Cyph org as a giant faction with its own controler in the Machine org and I think you will find yur answer.

GamiSB wrote:

Because of where the Cypherite org came from and its nature it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Machinest to be anti Cypherite. Because by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Read my lips. (Okay, read my text. I could provide you with footage of my lips moving, but I doubt you'd enjoy it.) I am anti-Cypherite. Fact. I decide who I am and what I believe, not anyone else.

I am anti-Cypherite. Fact. I decide who I am and what I believe, not anyone else.

I would like to see this proven. I've seen no so-called Machinist defy that which they have been told to do or think in quite a time. And when they are told to think something which defies their previous point, they immediately defect to the new way of thinking.

Case in point, the incident of one Mr. Navin Manohar - a bluepill and a potential. Mr. Manohar was deceived, and his life was taken by Machinists in order to craft a replacement with a tracking device as a measure of hindering Zion operations. Prior to this incident, Machinists cried out about bluepills being killed by accident and by those killed in some means attempting to gain information or strategic advantages. Some went as far as to condemn anyone for attempting to fight back against agents, and said some still hold these beliefs. Yet, following the Manohar incident, suddenly the sacrifice "for the greater good" was viewed as perfectly acceptable by the Machine (at this point, the Machinists cease to be).

You want to prove you have free thought? Exercise it. Do you want a war with Zion? Tell them to end it - they hold the power. Have you ever questioned why it is being perpetuated, knowing that we have not been able to make any sort of counterattack, and, over the course of several months have done nothing to destabalize the Matrix? Ask them why the war was started, and when they respond "dual paranoia," ask them why it has not yet been ended as their fears have been refuted. Moreover, ask them what they want from this war. Ask them what they believe they will accomplish by destroying Zion that they have not already accomplished.

There is but one thing they have yet to put an end to, and that is the freeing of minds.

Why do you think we so desperately aim to continue the process? Because if we do not, it will die, and so will the freedom of the podborn human beings who want and deserve out. What did you think this war was about?

In addition (this could be viewed as a postscript) this just goes to prove the coincidence of the Machine and Cypherite agenda. The Machine wishes that there be no further awakenings, as do the Cypherites. The end goal is one and the same. As Machinists, you would supposedly side with the Machine in an attempt to further their goals. In the days of the Truce, this could be considered attempting to further and encourage peace through understanding of the Machine. However, in these days of war, when one adopts the goals of the Machine, which are the goals of the Cypherite, one can only realize that there are no longer Machinists, only the Machine, and the Cypherite.

And we will.

I'm with Cykosis on the defending territory argument. The Machinist way of thinking may be to get us out and let us stay out of "their territory" and call it a day or "leave us to the Cypherites" or whatever, but the Machine way of thinking is control and always has been since the creation of the Matrix. Their puppets live as spies among us. Their scouts sit outside of our home and watch, monitoring us for an opening that they can exploit. If they are so set on destroying our territory and us with it, I see no reason to respect theirs. Especially when there are people that still reject their prison and want out. Until Zion is safe, the Matrix won't be safe either.

There's no point in arguing your case Proc, these people obviously have their minds set on one stereotype, believing their own propaganda to the point where nothing else can be true.

Personally I would work, on occasion, with the Cyphs if their goal and mine coincide and that they act within grounds that I agree with ie. no excessive violence, only doing what is necessary and they didn't, by way of actions, endanger any chance of eventual peace. Considering that they don't usually keep within those bounds, needless to say, I don't work with them very often.

Machinists can do the jobs handed to the Cyphs, only we would take more time in the planning and try to prevent exorbitant killing, In some situations, time is of the essence, and the Machines may decide that Cyphs will have results quicker than us. I cannot wait for the day when Gray decides that the Cyphs are unnecessary, that Machinists can do the jobs with little or no violance without needing to be paid mercenary money.  You'll find me one of the first to try to prevent them from their murderous actions, until then I see them as an unfortunate, but necessary evil.

Of course this is my view, Not Procs. I cannot begin to understand what he has been through and would probably take on his view if I had gone thorugh the same. But in your views I am a Machine I have no independant thought.

You are putting on me, what you say the Machines are doing to you. You want Mankind to have free thought and liberty yet when I act on my own free will and thought you dismiss it entirely.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Just because through some actions, that are required to achieve a goal, those same actions help another organisation with their goal does in no way mean that we support them and their ideals. Support would be to actively make sure that they are able to achieve their goals and ideals.

I have major problems with their attitude and methods, yet still regard them as a temporary necessity, and do not go out of my way to make sure that their goals are met. If their goals and mine coincide then I shall only work in conjunction, as I have pointed out before, as longs as their methods are reasonable to the required task.

You are telling it how it is from your biased perception, you may believe it, but that does not make it true.

Ever since the exposure of Cryptos' overwritten minds the Cyphs have become mercenarys meaning that they do what they want and if the Machines want something they pay for it. A purchase of services is not support. Except in monitary regards. If the Machines still supported the original idea of Cyphs, then they would have just 'manufactured' another leader, re-overwritten Cryotos' mind or at the very least, neglect to release the information about the inability to return to the pods.

I would like to see this proven. I've seen no so-called Machinist defy that which they have been told to do or think in quite a time. And when they are told to think something which defies their previous point, they immediately defect to the new way of thinking.

Case in point, the incident of one Mr. Navin Manohar - a bluepill and a potential. Mr. Manohar was deceived, and his life was taken by Machinists in order to craft a replacement with a tracking device as a measure of hindering Zion operations. Prior to this incident, Machinists cried out about bluepills being killed by accident and by those killed in some means attempting to gain information or strategic advantages. Some went as far as to condemn anyone for attempting to fight back against agents, and said some still hold these beliefs. Yet, following the Manohar incident, suddenly the sacrifice "for the greater good" was viewed as perfectly acceptable by the Machine (at this point, the Machinists cease to be).

You want to prove you have free thought? Exercise it. Do you want a war with Zion? Tell them to end it - they hold the power. Have you ever questioned why it is being perpetuated, knowing that we have not been able to make any sort of counterattack, and, over the course of several months have done nothing to destabalize the Matrix? Ask them why the war was started, and when they respond "dual paranoia," ask them why it has not yet been ended as their fears have been refuted. Moreover, ask them what they want from this war. Ask them what they believe they will accomplish by destroying Zion that they have not already accomplished.

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

Your ideology is the only thing that differs, and there is little difference, even, at that. And, even though you may express your ideology, you consent to act under theirs. Put simply, you say one thing and do another. All I've heard are empty words, and all I've seen is the killings. And yes, I am generalizing. It suits my focus to talk about the broader Machinist population in this situation, anyhow.

Most importantly, however, it must be restated that you are both otherwise executing, if not the same, then similar means to a common end - the cessation of awakenings within the Matrix. This end is viewed as Cypheristic. And so long as Machinists are acting towards this goal in accordance with Machine edict, I do not see them as Machinists whatsoever.

GamiSB wrote:

I'm doing no such thing. I'm showing you the reality of the situation you and every Machinst is in. It's the same with every Zion and EPN and Merv and Exile. This isn't some sterotype but a simple fact that if you are in support one group you are saying that no matter what that group does you have no problems with it. You can't say that you have never helped the Cypheites when every EPN or Zion you kill is a help to them.  Because even while you physicaly may not have been there you are still supporting the people that were.

I will say it again by suporting the Machine you support everything the Machine stands for which includes the Cypherites.

You're showing us the reality of the situation as you see it. It's as simple as that, because what we've been saying is the reality of the situation as we see it. The difference is that we're the ones that have lived through all this, we're the ones who've made the decisions we're talking about, and done the things we're talking about. You're viewing it from a distance, interpreting the situation without knowing what's going on in our heads. And when we tell you why we do things, when we tell you what's going on in our heads, you dismiss it.

I present to you one more argument in a desperate hope to get you to change your one-track mind. Let's go back God knows how many centuries, to the era before the War. The United States was heavily into invading countries in the name of freedom, with the supposed aim of stopping terrorism. Many people supported these moves, but equally many people abhorred their nation's actions. But the latter still lived in the US; they still paid their taxes, they did their jobs to support their economy, their country, their government. By your argument, they were supporting the United States' actions in foreign lands. I think they'd take offense to that suggestion.

And I'm not going to answer your other post. I don't see the point. My history should speak for itself, but as you seem to be ignoring it - even having the sheer gall to suggest I'm lying about the friends I've lost to the Cypherite plague - there's no point in me further emphasising it.

Your heads are biased and only see what they want to see. The only way to accuratly document anything is to have a neutral group from poutside of the conflict to do it. It's why jurys are made up of neutral parties who don't know the person on trail and why the crediablity of only one witness is never enough to base a verdict on. I've heard and been hearing your side of the story but your the only one saying it and no one else seems to remember a time when you acttuly did as you claimed to have been doing all along.

((Your the only one to give crediablity to your RP, the story isn't supporting it and the devs are not supporting it, thus it aint canon. Were one chapter into the war and two chapters into the revelation about the Cypherite org and not once has the story mentiond a Cypherite ship/operation being hinderd or attack by a Machine.))

As for your "war on terrorism" argument yes, those that did pay their taxes did, did stay in the US, and did support their goverment, supported the war. Vebaly they could cry to high heaven "I hate this war" but it doens't change that theyare still giveing money for the war, still elected people that were for the war, and did nothing to remove those people or replace them with people that were aginst the war. "Write your congressmen" remember? America was founded on democracy, don't like something, petition to change it and boycot it. Its leaders were not dictators and its constitution made it so the people had power to influence their govement. Sacrifices have to be made when you want to change something and typically the bigger that something is the more the the people wanting to change it is going to suffer.

So you have two options, either you can stay in your comfy shell and keep on chanting your mantra twice a day, or you and every other "Anti-cyph" can actully stand up for yourselves and take some action to get things changed. I know you hate the Cypherites, I know that all the Anti-Cypherites hate them. But your not helping or changeing anything by still supporting the people that are supporting them. You couldn't claim to support George W. Bush without supporting the war. What makes this any diffrent?

Just because through some actions, that are required to achieve a goal, those same actions help another organisation with their goal does in no way mean that we support them and their ideals. Support would be to actively make sure that they are able to achieve their goals and ideals.

I have major problems with their attitude and methods, yet still regard them as a temporary necessity, and do not go out of my way to make sure that their goals are met. If their goals and mine coincide then I shall only work in conjunction, as I have pointed out before, as longs as their methods are reasonable to the required task.

You are telling it how it is from your biased perception, you may believe it, but that does not make it true.

Ever since the exposure of Cryptos' overwritten minds the Cyphs have become mercenarys meaning that they do what they want and if the Machines want something they pay for it. A purchase of services is not support. Except in monitary regards. If the Machines still supported the original idea of Cyphs, then they would have just 'manufactured' another leader, re-overwritten Cryotos' mind or at the very least, neglect to release the information about the inability to return to the pods.

True but these are not just "some" actions. These are "all" of the actions. Name me one thing the Machine has done in this war and before it that was not in the favor of the Cypherites. You can't because their are none. Second you can't claim like so amny of you have to NEVER have worked or helped a Cypherite. You shoot someone a Cypherite was shooting at you helped them. You take out someone they wanted taken out you helped them. You stop an awakening you helped them. You stop a Zion operation you've helped them. See the pattern? You HELPED them.

I understand that just because I believe something doesnt make it true but all I hear in return is your same baised opinions reworded to try and eliminate my examples but still you have yet to show the error in my claim that by supporting the Machine you are supporting the Cypherites. You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

Before the Truce, the Cypherites are what the Machinists are now currently. In the War now, we are the "special forces" so to speak. Getting to places where the Machines and the Machinists cant (or in the Machinist case, WONT go to because they are scaredy cats), and we differ from the Machines and Machinists in one big regard. We dont see the Blue Pills as a power supply, we seem them as living beings and the future of humanity. So we do everything in our power to ensure that they and the world they live in, are safe. I don't know why some Machinists still hate us with a passion... we are on the same side of the war, we have given you MAJOR victories in the war... its time to get with the times. The Cyphs are here, and we are here to stay. We are your allies, get used to it.

You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

I don't care what you make of this, but I refuse to argue any further. I mean, Gami just made himself look absurd by suggesting he is a neutral, outside observer! That actually gave me a few laughs, thanks. He suggested 'no one' can remember what I've done, despite there only being about five people actively talking in this thread, and then suggested one option we have is to 'stand up for [our]selves and take some action to get things changed', to which I can only respond by repeating myself AGAIN! I won't.

Don't bother replying to this, 'cos I'm not gonna answer back.

I'm not a neutral watcher to a Machine and Cypherite conflict? Oh of course I foroget that being an EPN I must be biased towards one side and couldn't possibly not care what you do but only be makeing an observation about the conflict. Also its only you talking about what you have done. The other four don't seem to mention you at all.

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

GamiSB wrote:

You can hardly claim the Cypherites to be mercs when the only ones paying them are the Machines. They aren't guns for hire, they are just guns. A black ops group that been liberated but still run but its former goverment.

Veil has been getting a payoff from the Machines for a fair while now, Cryptos offered his services but only if he could remove some data from the archive first. Blatent paying for services, they are mercenary's, hired guns. They might still do the task if the Machines didn't pay them, but the Machines would get no benefit. If there were another Org which could offer the Cyphs more than what the Machines could, you'd probably see them work for them, as long as they can get their fill of violence in.

So by that logic you are  just a merc to then? Your getting paid for your services are you not? It's called a job and its apart of working for someone. The Cypherites WORK for the Machine and inreturn are looked out for and supplied. Stop assumeing and come up with some sort of fact next time because we've seen them pissed off beyond all reason at the Machine and they still went back. That says something right there and I'll let you try and figure it out.

Ah now we have something other then "he said she said". I conceed to the fact then that the Cypherite organization is its own org that gives a helping hand to the Machine when needed. But this doesn't change fact that your still supporting them by allowing the Machine to pay them for their services. As Ebola said you are still on the same side and you are both still helping each other wether you know it or not. Accept the fact and stop kidding yourself that by you allowing this to continue you are not giveing the Machine any reason to keep going to them for help.

Support the Machine you support the Cypherites. Simple as that.

So... you're Cypherites who work for free, or, otherwise, a severely reduced wage?

Somehow, this doesn't bring you any higher than them in my eyes.

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

GamiSB wrote:

((Please stop useing your own RP as your only argument. It's not offcal, it isn't DEV backed, and it aint canon. If thats all you've got to defend your side other then insults then I think this is over. GG son))

(( I guess I can still respond OOC and not break my word.

You really are a piece of work Gami, you know that? I've been using my RP to defend myself. Me. My own self. Not the Machinists; me. When I've defended the Machinists I've cited their RP, their behaviour. I've been talking primarily about Procurator ever since Shi+Xin+Feng turned the argument towards him rather than Machinists as a whole. And you say I can't use my RP to defend myself? I can't use it to define my character? Well, let's take a look...

Procurator wears black clothes. That's a statement about my character, and it's my RP. But wait! Procurator's dress sense hasn't been mentioned by the Devs, it doesn't feature in the story. Oh no! So it can't be true!

Go and pay a visit to Procurator in Tabor West. D'you know what you'll find there? Him wearing black clothes. H'mm, must be an illusion. </sarcasm>

What you're suggesting is that we can't define our own characters. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds? I say Procurator hates Cypherites. I ask you to look at his history, where he's been very vocal in his stance against them, and his in-game actions where he's done his utmost to hurt them physically despite the game mechanics not making it easy. Then you insist that because it isn't canon, because the Dev's haven't mentioned it, it can't be true.

Procurator is my creation, I define him as I like. And nothing he's done has contradicted any part of the story. Has Agent Gray ever said 'Procurator enjoys working with the Cypherites, and has never been attacked by them'? No, he hasn't. And I'm not pretentious enough to assume Rarebit reads my stories or follows Procurator's development as a character. But when we're talking about my character, what I say goes.

If someone wants to besmirch someone else's character, it has to be IC, and they have to back up their IC arguments with IC evidence. In this case the evidence that Procurator hates the Cypherites vastly outweighs any suggestion that he doesn't. No, I haven't posted the evidence in this thread, but I've referred to it. Go and read it yourself - it's not hard to find. It must be in almost every Live Events thread that Procurator's posted in. Your character can be as absurdly dogmatic as he wants, but don't you dare take it OOC again unless there's a breach of continuity that needs to be addressed. ))

((He may be your creation but the story isn't and when you plug him into that story you have to play by its rules. He is apart of a world that is not in any way yours. The rules of the Matrix story limits anything your character does and just because you write in your story for him doesn't mean any of that ever happend. Remember reinsertion? Remember how alot of people had it in their stories and used it as proof that people were pluged back in or how they were pluged back in at some point? Then remember how Gray came along and said resertion wasn't real. This created a major contridiction between the players story and the offical story and when the two collide guess which one is left standing. Clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes, these are things that the story and game can support. History, actions in the real, murder outside of the Matrix, these are things it doesnt.

I'm not sudgesting you can't define your characters. I'm saying that you can only do it in ways the story and game allows. The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them. So when your RP and what the story is saying collide on an issue your RP is null and void.))

((He may be your creation but the story isn't and when you plug him into that story you have to play by its rules. He is apart of a world that is not in any way yours. The rules of the Matrix story limits anything your character does and just because you write in your story for him doesn't mean any of that ever happend. Remember reinsertion? Remember how alot of people had it in their stories and used it as proof that people were pluged back in or how they were pluged back in at some point? Then remember how Gray came along and said resertion wasn't real. This created a major contridiction between the players story and the offical story and when the two collide guess which one is left standing. Clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes, these are things that the story and game can support. History, actions in the real, murder outside of the Matrix, these are things it doesnt.

I'm not sudgesting you can't define your characters. I'm saying that you can only do it in ways the story and game allows. The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them. So when your RP and what the story is saying collide on an issue your RP is null and void.))

GamiSB wrote:

((He may be your creation but the story isn't and when you plug him into that story you have to play by its rules. He is apart of a world that is not in any way yours. The rules of the Matrix story limits anything your character does and just because you write in your story for him doesn't mean any of that ever happend. Remember reinsertion? Remember how alot of people had it in their stories and used it as proof that people were pluged back in or how they were pluged back in at some point? Then remember how Gray came along and said resertion wasn't real. This created a major contridiction between the players story and the offical story and when the two collide guess which one is left standing. Clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes, these are things that the story and game can support. History, actions in the real, murder outside of the Matrix, these are things it doesnt.

I'm not sudgesting you can't define your characters. I'm saying that you can only do it in ways the story and game allows. The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them. So when your RP and what the story is saying collide on an issue your RP is null and void.))

(( That entire first paragraph was superfluous. I quote myself: 'And nothing he's done has contradicted any part of the story.' I'm well aware of the bounds within which I may define my character. Those bounds extend to anything that isn't contradicted by the story; that includes the Real. The Real may not feature in the game, but anything I say my character did there is valid until it is contradicted by the game, and as long as it doesn't infringe on other people's characters (aka godmodding).

The simple fact here is that your suggestion ('The story doesn't support Anti-Cypherite Machinst. The games machanics dont support them.'" width="15" height="15" /> is pure drivel. How can game mechanics limit a character's thoughts?

I hereby ask for others to add their opinion on this simple matter. Until then, I shall remain silent in this thread. I might laugh a little from time to time. ))

God, I'm so done with this rubbish.  "What makes us different than Cypherites?"

Simple.

It all boils down to convenience.  Before Gray burst their bubble, Cypherites could two craps about bluepills.  They were all about killing redpills just so they could sleep without interference.  The minute Gray destroys that dream they conveniently now want to protect the bluepills.  Frankly, it's just an excuse and idealic non-sense so they feel like they have a purpose again. 

Machinists, on the other hand, work for a different goal, one that has not changed since Day One.  Peace.  We believe that if we work with the Machines we can build up a trust so that they don't instinctively want to kill humans immediately.  That maybe one day we can live in peace with them.  Unlike Cypherites, we're not siding with the Machines to spite you.

In the end, we still believe in the same ideals we've always had.  There are things that we've done with regret that we're not proud of (unlike the boastful Cypherites) but we are compelled to continue our course for the betterment of our race's relationship with the machines.  We do it selflessly, whereas Cypherites only do it for money.

Honestly, the question you should be asking is what separates Cypherites from Merovingians because the only reward machinists are looking for is peace.

((Nothing that contradicted the story!? YOUR CLAIMING TO HAVE KILLED CYPHERITES AS A MACHINST! Then you followed it with a BS statment saying you didnt in the matrix and I remeber asking you why exactly Gray didnt care if you did it in the real but ddi care if it was done in the Matrix. The Cypherites are the Machines allies now. Anything you do to hurt them directly contridicts what the story has been telling us about them. Read what I said again, the game supports your clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes. But it doesn't support your actions or anything else you say happens outside in the real.

You've been hollaring about all the things you have done against the Cypherites not how you feel towards them. Get your story straight before you bother replying))

There are two very obvious differences between Machinists and Cypherites.  The first is that Cypherites advocated killing Zionites in the real while the truce was still on, which no Machinist that I know of agreed with!  The second is that Cypherites seem to have the belief that humans and Machines can't live together in peace (and therefore all humans should stay in their pods), whereas Machinists have been working for this since the truce began. 

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.  But he may be an ally.

Illyria

God, I'm so done with this rubbish.  "What makes us different than Cypherites?"

Simple.

It all boils down to convenience.  Before Gray burst their bubble, Cypherites could two craps about bluepills.  They were all about killing redpills just so they could sleep without interference.  The minute Gray destroys that dream they conveniently now want to protect the bluepills.  Frankly, it's just an excuse and idealic non-sense so they feel like they have a purpose again. 

Machinists, on the other hand, work for a different goal, one that has not changed since Day One.  Peace.  We believe that if we work with the Machines we can build up a trust so that they don't instinctively want to kill humans immediately.  That maybe one day we can live in peace with them.  Unlike Cypherites, we're not siding with the Machines to spite you.

In the end, we still believe in the same ideals we've always had.  There are things that we've done with regret that we're not proud of (unlike the boastful Cypherites) but we are compelled to continue our course for the betterment of our race's relationship with the machines.  We do it selflessly, whereas Cypherites only do it for money.

Honestly, the question you should be asking is what separates Cypherites from Merovingians because the only reward machinists are looking for is peace.

GamiSB wrote:

from TGS from putting a few in me and the other Zionites while we were trying to kill Veil.

You were easier to aim at than Veil - ditto Colt. Don't go making wild assumptions about me actually liking the Cypherites - you're all the same to me.

GamiSB wrote:

((Nothing that contradicted the story!? YOUR CLAIMING TO HAVE KILLED CYPHERITES AS A MACHINST! Then you followed it with a BS statment saying you didnt in the matrix and I remeber asking you why exactly Gray didnt care if you did it in the real but ddi care if it was done in the Matrix. The Cypherites are the Machines allies now. Anything you do to hurt them directly contridicts what the story has been telling us about them. Read what I said again, the game supports your clothing, faction position, attitude, belifes. But it doesn't support your actions or anything else you say happens outside in the real.

(( *Falls about laughing.*

Temper, temper.

First of all, I'd like you to quote me where I said I'd killed Cypherites in the Real. You seem to have referred to that a few times, but I'm not sure where you got it from. I said my crew was killed by the Masked, well over a year ago. I said Procurator would like to kill Cypherites in the Real, and that stands.

How does that contradict the story? If Procurator were to kill Cypherites, it wouldn't contradict anything. It would have consequences (like Gray firing me, relieving me of my FM-1500, etc), but it wouldn't contradict anything.

I did read what you wrote, which is something you and others seem to neglect when it comes to my posts. But you're wrong. The game doesn't support things happening in the Real, but it doesn't contradict them either. Not until it's actually been written somewhere that a certain thing can't physically happen (like the whole reinsertion business). If what you're suggesting were true, every character in the game would have to follow their stereotype, because that's what's implied by the story. But people define their own characters, expand them into territories not supported by the game. It's called creativity, and it's allowed.

((Then it seems I misunderstood you three pages back when you started bragging about all you had done to hinder the Cypherites. If you havn't done anything then we have no problem, thats fine. Hate them all you like but I was under the impression that you were gloating about actions, not words.

I'm not negateing everything anyone does in the real only showing you where the line is. Someone can RP a Machine ship attacking a Zion ship and it works. Thats allowed and is expected. It can be executed and written without the need for any characters not outside of the players control. But a Machine ship attacking a Cypherite ship is not. Machineist aren't suppose to be attacking Cypherites but instead are working with them in the war. As you said Gray would be all up in their butt about it but we aren't in control of Gray or Agents.

Creativity is allowed but it has to be limited and people need to be aware that there are rules that they need to follow in makeing a character/story. As cool as it may be to be the son of Neo, Neo didn't have a son. As awesome as it is that you can RP a machine and Cypherite dogfight the story says that thats never happend and to make it happen you have to use characters not under your control.

GamiSB wrote:

You've been hollaring about all the things you have done against the Cypherites not how you feel towards them. Get your story straight before you bother replying))

Right from the start of this pathetic argument, I've been speaking about the things Procurator's done (not much when it comes to Cypherites) as well as what he thinks. I'm trying to understand how you came to the conclusion that this wasn't about how Procurator felt towards Cypherites. My story's perfectly straight. Maybe you just need to concentrate a little. ))

Re-read my first post. It can be sumed up with the phrase "actions speak louder then words". I've never given a *CENSORED* this whole time about how Proc thinks, or feels. I've cared about what he's done and is doing. Any action aginst the Cypherites is a contridiction to the fact that Machinst are to be helping them.))

((Gami, your argument works about as well as those who argue against my faction The Daemon Contingency when we say we are neutral. I have three characters named Magiseth (well, Magiseth, Magiseth2, Magiseth3), and guess what? They all work for a different org. Including now in this time of war. Does Magiseth support Cyphs, since he works with the machines? No. Does he support EPN, since they work with his preferred employer, Zion? No. In fact, every time I hear that EPN did something for Zion, I mutter to myself that I wish a Zion op would've gotten credit for that instead of the EPN. Give it up, people in this game CAN be part of an org, and still be against it. Helping it by doing missions in which it requires something done that you don't want to... well, you look at it as info and xp, don't you? Don't tell me that you refuse to do the Mech and Merv arcs because of that thought. Proc, I'm with you on this one.))

((Wrong argument pal. I'm not saying neutrality isn't possible or that you can't be playing all sides of the fence. I'm saying you can't be loyal to one side and be working aginst it. Proc isn't neutral, he's been a Machinst since day one and from what I gather is in full support of the Machine. The problem is that being in full support of the Machine means he supports everything the Machine does which includes inlist the help of Cypherits, a group of people he hates. This is fine, awesome, hate them all you want, hate is a feeling and your allowed that.

But he took it further, apparently he is activley hindering Cypherite operations something that if was true is a direct violation to what Gray has said is allowed. Simple logic at this point tells you that a Machine Captain is going to be told off for this by someone in charge namely Agent Gray. Now since Proc has no control over Gray he can't possibly say that he has been punished for his actions. Thus a problem accures and if the story is played out that Proc has done something aginst the Cypherites he has no offical way of saying that it happend. It's his word against the stories logic, and the stories logic comes out on top.))

c) have the same vocabulary as dog-breath veil? (eg: dear, dearie, man etc)

The same reasons why Mervs speak like the Merv, and Mechs like Agents.

Could someone answer this question? Why, when you turn cyph (no matter how nice you may be) you;
a) gain a huge mothertrucking chip on your shoulder with everyone
b) ./mood cocky like your gods gift to everyone
c) have the same vocabulary as dog-breath veil? (eg: dear, dearie, man etc)

Pretty much what GodGiver said.  It's the easiest way to identify with the role your portraying.  Every one does it, though some more subtle than others. 

"For Zion!"

Sphairo wrote:

Could someone answer this question? Why, when you turn cyph (no matter how nice you may be) you;
a) gain a huge mothertrucking chip on your shoulder with everyone
b) ./mood cocky like your gods gift to everyone
c) have the same vocabulary as dog-breath veil? (eg: dear, dearie, man etc)

Pretty much what GodGiver said.  It's the easiest way to identify with the role your portraying.  Every one does it, though some more subtle than others. 

"For Zion!"

Message edited by GoDGiVeR on 11/04/2007 06:57:07.

Fair enough.  GG, GG. 

Sphairo wrote:

c) have the same vocabulary as dog-breath veil? (eg: dear, dearie, man etc)

The same reasons why Mervs speak like the Merv, and Mechs like Agents.

You can be part of an organization and not support every single thing they do; you can try to change it from within.

Illyria

But you can't claim to be in full support of that organization and pick and choose what you like.

Also you can't change what doesn't want to be changed with words alone.

But you can't claim to be in full support of that organization and pick and choose what you like.

Also you can't change what doesn't want to be changed with words alone.

Of course you can.  It'd be foolish to be believe we embrace every aspect of our respective organizations.  You take the good with the bad and see which weighs more.  Obviously when the bad weighs the most, you move on.  Many of us are hoping to change the minds of the Machine race.  Otherwise we wouldn't be here.  We'd resort to fighting back and continuing a needless cycle of hatred to which we already have a couple organizations dedicated to.

The plight of the machinist is our everlasting hope that we can change things.  We remain hopeful amidst those who have given up and see no other means to our race's survival than through violence and retaliation. 

Before you preach about how violent the Machines are, I'll agree with you.  They are quite merciless.  It is in their nature to be so, afterall they were birthed in our own image.  And should our race gain the upperhand, I guarantee you that mercy will be the farthest from desires.

Nevertheless, we remain optimistic.

Full support. That means that anything someone does you back it no matter what it is. My earlier example, you can't say you supported Bush compeltly and be aginst the Iraq war. You can't say you back the Machine 100% and then complain about them useing Cypherites as spies. Once you do you not longer are fully supporting them. You are partialy or semi supportive. This isn't to say that your no longer a Machinsst if you don't like the Cypherites. It just means your not a die hard fan you're claiming to be.

Full support. That means that anything someone does you back it no matter what it is. My earlier example, you can't say you supported Bush compeltly and be aginst the Iraq war. You can't say you back the Machine 100% and then complain about them useing Cypherites as spies. Once you do you not longer are fully supporting them. You are partialy or semi supportive. This isn't to say that your no longer a Machinsst if you don't like the Cypherites. It just means your not a die hard fan you're claiming to be.

Correct.  However, you seem to believe that one must agree with something 100% in order to support it.  That's a bit too ideallistic for my taste.  I support the Machines and certainly won't entertain examining the level of my loyalty with them.  Frankly, if I didn't support them, believe in them or trust them, I wouldn't be a Machinist.  I dare not challenge your loyalty or anyone else's.  Isn't it enough that we are all willing to die for our beliefs?

Hardly that, just the people I was originaly argueing with kept going on about how they were in "full support" of the Machines yet had a problem with the Cypherites. I'm not here to say who's the most loyal, just pointing out that if your gonna claim to be the most loyal you can't *CENSORED* about anything your group does.

But also because of what the Cypherites are it is impossible for even the most anti Cypherite to not help them in some way by working for the Machine.

Hardly that, just the people I was originaly argueing with kept going on about how they were in "full support" of the Machines yet had a problem with the Cypherites. I'm not here to say who's the most loyal, just pointing out that if your gonna claim to be the most loyal you can't *CENSORED* about anything your group does.

But also because of what the Cypherites are it is impossible for even the most anti Cypherite to not help them in some way by working for the Machine.

I'm inclined to agree with that to a certain extent.  Perhaps the issue is moreorless semantics.

I can't speak for anyone else but my stance as a machinist is that I'm giving my full support to the Machines through the good and the bad.  Many of us simply don't like the Cypherites, as I'm sure you can relate.  Personally I can appreciate their "talents" and usefulness, nevertheless I don't trust them farther than I can throw 'em.

Now that doesn't affect my support of the Machines.  I believe that there is a reason even if it's only because if they die nobody would miss them (i.e. acceptable losses).  I don't agree with every action taken by the Machines.  There are some things that could be done differently.  However, I trust them so I remain by their side to the end.  That is loyalty and giving my full support.