[8.2.5] We still haven't found Commander Lock - Syntax - 9/24/07

Ghost · 09/25/2007 22:29:42

So many of them are still just playing at war: both the killers, and the victims. For some, a tragic shock like the loss of home and loved ones when the Machines ripped apart Zion will bring it home; for others, nothing will. Most would call those the lucky ones.

PS10N · 09/26/2007 01:12:06

We really need details of the battle that finally destroyed Zion Mk VI. Long live Zion Mk VII.

GoDGiVeR · 09/26/2007 01:15:23

((Eh? Ghosts glasses don't have code ...

er... here they do?))

Gerik · 09/26/2007 01:18:26

GoDGiVeR wrote:

((Eh? Ghosts glasses don't have code ...

er... here they do?))

((That's not Ghost, looks like one of Havocide's faction members sporing their uniform.))

GoDGiVeR · 09/26/2007 01:24:19

((Ja, was about to edit the post and say *doh*
I'm still used to Ghosts old black clothes))

Havocide · 09/26/2007 03:53:19

AFGM1 wrote:

GoDGiVeR wrote:
((Eh? Ghosts glasses don't have code ...

er... here they do?))
((That's not Ghost, looks like one of Havocide's faction members sporing their uniform.))

((Aye that would be Sotirios, recently 50 enjoying his first LE at that level. He loved kicking Cypherite *CENSORED*, like we all do. =) ))

Garu · 09/26/2007 05:17:46

Lock is missing? Nice!

Pyraci · 09/26/2007 07:13:13

So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

Garu · 09/26/2007 07:45:42

Pyraci wrote:

So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

Ez, I don't think it's really a question of that. Of course it'd be easy for the machines to destroy Zion. They've got plenty of experience doing so ( SMILEY ).

This is also proof that if they wanted to, they easily could have done so during the Truce. But they didn't. Why is that?

Mave · 09/26/2007 08:24:36

Garu wrote:

Pyraci wrote:
So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

Ez, I don't think it's really a question of that. Of course it'd be easy for the machines to destroy Zion. They've got plenty of experience doing so ( " /> ).
This is also proof that if they wanted to, they easily could have done so during the Truce. But they didn't. Why is that?

Because they had Cypherites doing it for them anyway. With the truce out of the way, they can hold no guilty conscience for doing the things they hired Cypherites to do for them.

Garu · 09/26/2007 08:35:26

Mave wrote:

Garu wrote:
Pyraci wrote:
So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

Ez, I don't think it's really a question of that. Of course it'd be easy for the machines to destroy Zion. They've got plenty of experience doing so ( ).
This is also proof that if they wanted to, they easily could have done so during the Truce. But they didn't. Why is that?

Because they had Cypherites doing it for them anyway. With the truce out of the way, they can hold no guilty conscience for doing the things they hired Cypherites to do for them.

Not so. The Cypherites were only used as a means of espionage. The Machines are more than capable of destroying Zion themselves. Afterall, why send a human to do a machine's job?

ShiXinFeng · 09/26/2007 09:43:32

Garu wrote:

Mave wrote:
Garu wrote:
Pyraci wrote:
So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

Ez, I don't think it's really a question of that. Of course it'd be easy for the machines to destroy Zion. They've got plenty of experience doing so ( ).
This is also proof that if they wanted to, they easily could have done so during the Truce. But they didn't. Why is that?

Because they had Cypherites doing it for them anyway. With the truce out of the way, they can hold no guilty conscience for doing the things they hired Cypherites to do for them.

Not so. The Cypherites were only used as a means of espionage. The Machines are more than capable of destroying Zion themselves. Afterall, why send a human to do a machine's job?

Yes, why?

Could it be because humans are the most expendable resource, mass-produced and infinitely replenishable?

Oh, and if your 'logical' response about the ease with which the Machine destroyed Zion was meant to placate anyone, it couldn't have failed more miserably.

EDIT: ((to say that if this is how Zion goes out; with a whimper and one little mention in an LE thread, then that is kind of lame. . .))

Sotirios · 09/26/2007 10:30:39

While I don't tend to concern myself with too many of the internal botherations of Zion, if it involves Cypherites, I'm glad to join the fray.

(( Edit: Ah, just saw Havocide's post. Yes, that is me. Fantastic camera work there, Ghost. You got my *CENSORED*-kicking side.

))

Garu · 09/26/2007 10:33:43

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yes, why?
Could it be because humans are the most expendable resource, mass-produced and infinitely replenishable?
Oh, and if your 'logical' response about the ease with which the Machine destroyed Zion was meant to placate anyone, it couldn't have failed more miserably.

True, humans are quite renewable.

My point remains: If the Machines wanted to destroy Zion (during the Truce) why not simply do it and be done with it? Cypherites, even on their best day, are hardly capable of wrecking havoc upon an entire population that vastly outnumbers them, let alone destroying it.

Lastly, my comment in regards to the ease in which the Machines can destroy Zion wasn't meant to placate.

Illyria22 · 09/26/2007 10:33:53

Pyraci wrote:

So the machine came back and finished the job, huh? Even more proof of how easy it would have been to annihilate all of us if we'd stayed put.

We told Zion this would happen if they broke the truce. It's not like they didn't know New Zion would be seen as a threat -- and if you claim they didn't, then why built it in secret? Face it, Zion knew this would cause the truce to collapse and they knew what would happen to their 'old' city when it did.

They knew this was coming. They knew because they caused it to happen.

Zion created a self-fulfilling prophecy. Zion said the Machines would destroy them, and they did...but only because they built the new city. If they hadn't built it, Zion would not have been attacked, the truce would still be in effect, and the Machines and Zion would still be moving towards a more permanent peace.

But no, it couldn't be that way, because Zion had to secretly build a heavily armed, impenetrable base that could launch attacks against both the Matrix and the Machines without fear of reprisal. Good going, Zion. You threw away the truce, and with it, any trust the Machines had in you. So now you have what you wanted (if you didn't want it, you wouldn't have deliberately done something you knew would destroy the truce). You have your old war back. You've got your war, and you've got your martyrs. And I'm sure that right now you're raging against what you've called the injustice over the unprovoked attack on your city, without being able to admit that you are the cause of your own city's destruction. But that's the great thing about self-fulfilling prophecies -- you make the prophecy come true. You predicted the Machines would attack you again someday, so you do something you say was simply for defense, but that you know the Machines will see as a threat...and there, like magic, you get the very attack you predicted.

So now Zion's leadership is making impassioned speeches and calls to arms, rallying their troops and trying to convince their citizens that the truce wasn't going to last and that another attack was coming all along. But they were wrong. It was only because of the construction of New Zion -- the very thing they're claiming was necessary to prevent their annihilation -- that the truce failed and the Machines attacked again.

Perhaps some of that Zionite anger I've seen towards the Machines and their human operatives would be better directed at their own leadership. Because after all, they knew this would happen.

Illyria

PS10N · 09/28/2007 17:38

Overwriting Redpills violated the Truce
Funding a secret undercover sub-org to murder people in their sleep violated the Truce
Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce

The Machines violated the Truce, Zion never has. The Architect is LYING, people. It's an EXCUSE, it's NOT TRUE.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 17:46

Yes, I did. It reads "PEACE." Overwriting someone's mind against their consent is not an act of PEACE. Murdering operatives in their sleep and sending bombs against the gates of Zion is NOT PEACE. Surrounding a city with an army of death machines is not an act of PEACE. The Machines are guilty and they try to blame Zion. Typical campaign of propaganda and misdirection, worthy of the Republicans.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 17:55

Building a city is an act of peace. No one was hurt, killed, harmed, deleted or taken off-line by anything Zion did to build New Zion. The Machines, on the other hand, are guilty of mind-*CENSORED* from the outset of the "Truce." They never had any intentions of maintaining PEACE, they attacked us immediately with overwriting. Redpills who believe the propaganda of the Architect and the Machines are just as feeble-minded as the Cypherites and Bluepills: they willingly accept a blatant falsehood because they think it justifies their actions and beliefs.

I don't remember Neo saying "Truce" when he was asked "What do you want?" He said, "PEACE." Deus Ex Machina agreed, then immediately set about harming humans at the first opportunity. Nothing a mechanical, source program or Redpill Machine says is to be trusted, because they believe the ends justifies their means and lies are their way of life. Everything the machines have done to humanity for over 600 years can be summed up in two words: murder and lies. They are not to be trusted in any way.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 18:05

You've never been to New Zion, you have no idea what's there. I helped build it. You've been LIED TO, again, and you believed the lie, again. The Machines destroying Old Zion prove that they are nothing more than deceitful murderers. If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table. They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory, and the same would have happened if New Zion had never been built, except that the only humans left alive on the planet would be in pods. You'd be dead too, so by building New Zion we saved the life of every free human on earth. You're welcome.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 18:15:37

What rubbish, Zion was destroyed because of New Zion not despite it. True, I have no idea what's inside New Zion but having fortifications that allow Zion to attempt attacks on the Machines then retreat with little possibility of reprisal, doesn't mean that it was built with only peace in mind. Also Machinists will be needed even if all Zionites were eradicated, the Machines wouldn't waste a valuable resource, we will still be required as our humanity will be able to do things that the Machines can't. We will be able to understand other Humans. I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 18:17:29

That is so completely delusion and lacking in a single fact to dispute. You should see Seraph about that complete over-writing you seem to be under. The Machines promised Peace and attacked us before the site for New Zion was even found. Liars, all of them and evidently all of you now too.

Croesis · 09/28/2007 18:24:02

PS10N wrote:

That is so completely delusion and lacking in a single fact to dispute. You should see Seraph about that complete over-writing you seem to be under. The Machines promised Peace and attacked us before the site for New Zion was even found. Liars, all of them and evidently all of you now too.

The exact site may or may not have been found, but the plans were in place according to Niobe. And with regard to your statement about lacking facts; what's good for the goose......

Illyria22 · 09/28/2007 19:20:57

PS10N wrote:

If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table. They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory, and the same would have happened if New Zion had never been built

Is that honestly what Zion's leadership is telling its citizens? Then they're either more delusional or more desperate for their citizens' support than I'd thought.

Believe me, no calculations needed to be made. The Machines could have destroyed Zion at any time, from the instant after Neo defeated Smith all the way through the two and a half years leading up to today. But they didn't, not until Zion built a bunker where they could strike at the Machines without fear of reprisal. The Machines weren't planning to destroy Zion before that...if you'll recall, the General and his men chose exile because the Machines *wouldn't* let them destroy Zion.

Illyria

PS: Don't worry Vinia, I've been accused of being overwritten too...even though I did encounter Seraph while he was on his code-exorcism binge and I wasn't attacked! But isn't it funny how some people don't understand how any redpill would choose not to side with Zion? They just don't get what I've said before...that you shouldn't side with humans who are destructive just because they're human.

PS10N · 09/28/2007 19:25:43

If "no preparations were needed" why did they build their army from 125,000 Sentinels to 500,000 Sentinels. Threatening to kill people unless they do as you say is not peaceful, and that's exactly what the Machines did from Day 1. Explain to me how a city nearly 7 kilometers under the earth is capable of of striking at a Machine city on the surface over 100 km away. That's just more of your propaganda and lies from your meglomechanical masters. I challenge you to name one thing the Machines have done in the past 650 years that didn't involve deceit and/or murder. I stand by what I said: Zion would have been destroyed in the same hour it was even if New Zion had never been built. It was their plan all along, delayed slightly by the General.

GoDGiVeR · 09/29/2007 00:54:53

Croesus wrote:

I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.

Machines count of genocides to the human population: 7, the 8th time is in the making

7? Yeah, the frist one is the annihilation of the world population and the other 6 are the continued extermination of the previous Zions.

Whatever you say, Machinist, you only lie to yourself in saying we are the only ones who "willing" to commit mass murder. If the Machines commit mass murder it's always "for the greater good". I call BS.

-Dedatorus

Garu · 09/29/2007 03:54:40

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:
I work for teh day when Machines and Humans can live in peace, what Neo wanted. All I get from your propaganda is that you want to commit genocide of an intelligent species who, despite what Humanity tried to do to them in the past, has kept them in existance.
Machines count of genocides to the human population: 7, the 8th time is in the making

7? Yeah, the frist one is the annihilation of the world population and the other 6 are the continued extermination of the previous Zions.

Whatever you say, Machinist, you only lie to yourself in saying we are the only ones who "willing" to commit mass murder. If the Machines commit mass murder it's always "for the greater good". I call BS.

-Dedatorus

Mankind isn't the only one whose willing to commit genocide but we do seem to be the only one bringing it upon ourselves.

Garu · 09/29/2007 03:55:27

PS10N wrote:

If "no preparations were needed" why did they build their army from 125,000 Sentinels to 500,000 Sentinels. Threatening to kill people unless they do as you say is not peaceful, and that's exactly what the Machines did from Day 1. Explain to me how a city nearly 7 kilometers under the earth is capable of of striking at a Machine city on the surface over 100 km away. That's just more of your propaganda and lies from your meglomechanical masters. I challenge you to name one thing the Machines have done in the past 650 years that didn't involve deceit and/or murder. I stand by what I said: Zion would have been destroyed in the same hour it was even if New Zion had never been built. It was their plan all along, delayed slightly by the General.

Stand by it, by all means but proving it may be a difficult task. Paranoia, not withstanding.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 04:08:22

PS10N wrote:

Overwriting Redpills violated the Truce

Debatable.

PS10N wrote:

Funding a secret undercover sub-org to murder people in their sleep violated the Truce

I don't recall the Machines doing that. Oh, yeah, they did create a secret sub-org that was meant to keep the Redpill population stable through elegant speeches and a little trickery, but never murder. The Cypherites went crazy and chose to do that themselves. The Machines disapprove of this.

PS10N wrote:

Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce

Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.

PS10N wrote:

If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table.

Where do you people get this from? Now that's propaganda.

PS10N wrote:

They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory

*Falls off his chair laughing.*

GoDGiVeR · 09/29/2007 07:28:00

Procurator wrote:

PS10N wrote:
Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce

Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.

Eh? New Zion is considered by many Machines and Machinists a threat, like a weapon. But our "weapon" violates the truth? Ah well, being out of point blank range of their army is not what the Machines prefer, it seems. Humans, though, prefer not being put at that. Hence why New Zion was built in the first place.

-Dedatorus

Crossover · 09/29/2007 07:29:38

When I think of Old Zion, I'll think fondly of a place that contained safe harbors for Hovercrafts to call home, housing units and living quarters for free humans both Redpill and old fashion homegrown folks alike. I'll think of hallways filled with music, and the temple where people could gather in celebration and worship peacefully. It was one of the few places left on Earth where it was still warm and if the War had ever really ended it's where the party would have been. It may have been the HQ of Zion command but everyone even Machines knew that it was also home to civilians; women, children, and elderly, the same people that the former APU Corp and half of the infantry died for protecting from Sentinels two plus years earlier. I salute anyone (if any) that might have made a last stand this time around in order for a few more evacuations to get through. We might not have had Neo to bail us out this time but we did have a New city to retreat to. Farewell old Zion.

GoDGiVeR · 09/29/2007 07:31:09

Garu wrote:

Mankind isn't the only one whose willing to commit genocide but we do seem to be the only one bringing it upon ourselves.

The Machines are capable of it. But up to now, they stand united to the greatest part. If there is ever going to be more than 1 Machine "culture" (the Exiles have a chance of evolving into this, maybe they already have), I'm sure the Machines are capable of bringing it upon themselves the same.

The Machines are more human than we give them credit. Well, only where they chose to, of course.

Sphairo · 09/29/2007 08:21:46

Everything is debatable in this thread, I don't see how replying to a point with 'debatable' gives you a +1. >.<

Procurator · 09/29/2007 08:34:32

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Eh? New Zion is considered by many Machines and Machinists a threat, like a weapon. But our "weapon" violates the truth? Ah well, being out of point blank range of their army is not what the Machines prefer, it seems. Humans, though, prefer not being put at that. Hence why New Zion was built in the first place.

That's just it. Apparently (and no, like all of you, I haven't seen the terms of the Truce) Zion wasn't allowed to fortify themselves, wasn't allowed to put themselves in a position where they weren't, uh, accessible to the Machines. I've mentioned this in a previous discussion.

The Architect is an arrogant prat, but I don't think he's lying. If he says Zion broke the Truce, they broke the Truce. That should confirm the potential term I've just mentioned. Naturally this seems terribly unfair (heck, it is unfair - but you already know I think the Machines are being hasty), but Zion must have agreed to it when the Truce was signed. They agreed to it (under pressure possibly, but it doesn't matter), they knew about it, ergo they knew the danger they were placing their citizens under when they constructed New Zion.

Annakonder · 09/29/2007 08:46:18

Examine what has really changed and any debate is laughable, Zion lived in a city that machines chose not to destroy because they didn't want to, Zion move to a city that for the time being at least cant be destroyed....but as supposedly it was never to be destroyed both the move and the reaction are both entirely irrelevant.... interaction in the matrix means your originating location is irrelevant..... machines destroyed old zion for no purpose whatsoever, save petulance...wasted effort and resource in order to facilitate an action which we understood was not intended. The humans in Zion moved through fear, unreasoned and ill advised it was nothing more than a throwback to its caveman roots.... the machines reacted in a wholly emotional way (apparently this is sooooo much more serious than setting up a deception to contravene the truce via the cypherites - yeah rightyho) and all to no positive end whatsoever..... and the situation that remains is precisely the one that existed before any of this occurred, indeed before Morpheus even found Neo.

Two groups opposed for reasons that don't make sense and that they don't fully understand themselves but boil down to the classic triangle prejudice, ignorance and fear. Forget Neo - his words and actions may have been progress but neither of the parties involved listen or made any attempt to learn - the net result has been regression it was Smith that got it right neither Zion nor Machine deserve to hold the dominion they have, life carbon or Silicon is nothing but a disease that spreads and infects.

PS10N · 09/29/2007 11:58:07

>>Overwriting Redpills violated the Truce
>Debatable.
Not debatable, it was an act of war, period. The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did . If you don't think so, come to our lab and we'll over write your mind until you agree, since mind-*CENSORED* seems to be all okie-dokey fine with you; not surprising considering how brainwashed you sound.

>>Funding a secret undercover sub-org to murder people in their sleep violated the Truce
>I don't recall the Machines doing that. Oh, yeah, they did create a secret sub-org that was meant to keep the Redpill population stable through elegant speeches and a little trickery, but never murder. The Cypherites went crazy and chose to do that themselves. The Machines disapprove of this.
You don't recall very well. The Masked Men (same as the Cypherites, despite lies to the contrary) planted bombs they got from the Machines on the hulls of ships to kill people in their sleep. You obviously weren't here or weren't paying attention when all these murders took place, or you choose to ignore the truth, just like the Machines who are incapable of distinguishing what truth is. To the Machine "mind" there is no truth or untruth, everything is data and every perception is virtual, therefore there is no concept of "real" or "true" it's all just data to be manipulated, just as minds like yours are evidently easily manipulated by them.

>>Surrounding Zion with an army of 500,000 Sentinels violated the Truce
>Heh, that's not a violation of any truce. Back in the old days, all nations of the world had weapons pointed at each other, but they were at peace. Zion doesn't have any obvious weapons they can point back at the Machines, granted, but that's their own problem.
Your memory seems to fail you at key points. The Machines used that army as a threat "give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you." And what did they do as soon as they got illegal access to our mainframe? They attacked, which was their plan all along and what they would have done if we had agreed. I wonder how many nations of ancient Earth would have considered that an act of peace. "We have weapons of mass destruction ready to destroy you if you don't give us what we demand. Of course, we are completely peaceful in this." Horse ca-ca.

>>If we hadn't built New Zion, the Machines still would have attacked Old Zion and destroyed it, on the same time table.
>Where do you people get this from? Now that's propaganda.
That's straight out of the Machine mainframe. The plans for the attacks on Zion are well documented. Your ignorance astounds me. Oh no wait, you're a Machine Operative. Your ignorance is understandable.

>>They were moving to do it when the Battle of Stalingrad depleted their forces, so they postponed it and attacked as soon as they calculated they could achieve victory
>*Falls off his chair laughing.*
I'm not surprised that your mental self-defense mechanism kicked in and doesn't allow you to accept the truth. Keep laughing, it will make all these hard truths go away for you.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 12:23:38

PS10N wrote:

The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did .

Proof of this repeated claim, please.

PS10N wrote:

planted bombs they got from the Machines

Proof that they got them from the Machines, please.

PS10N wrote:

"give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you."

Proof that this was a verbal threat, please.

PS10N wrote:

The plans for the attacks on Zion are well documented.

Proof that these documents and plans exist, please.

PS10N wrote:

Keep laughing, it will make all these hard truths go away for you.

I could say the same about you, your claims and my truths. Seriously man, you call us brainwashed, but have you read your own posts? It's pretty flippin' amusing.

Croesis · 09/29/2007 12:47:58

PS10N wrote:

The Machines violated the Truce; Zion never did.

Once again let me remind you that Zion built new Zion, in fact you say you helped them do it. That was a Violation of the Truce. Saying that Zion never did is a delusion in itself. Indeed there have been many a conversation between Machinist and Zion in which both sides have said that each side has violated it in some small way.

Once again you claim that some of us Machinists have been overwritten, why would the Machines need to overwrite us when we understand what they are about and have since before we decided to join them? That'd be a pure waste of resources. Of course you have found a self supporting lie right there, anyone tries to explain the truth or their views, you can say they've been overwritten, how convenient.

I have to wonder what type of conditioning you have been put through to really truly believe what you are saying as it seems on par with the Machines overwriting. Many items of what you said are either fictitious, made up to bolster and justify your belief, or lacking in evidence.

Your Paranoia really needs to be taken a look at as its quite self destructive and believe it or not, your position is not supported by all EPN. There are many who, although fighting for their own reasons, can admit to their own mistakes or mistakes of their own leadership.

You are not the future, the future is those of us who can see the big picture, who can ignore their own prejudice, who want all sides to live together in peace. It is people such as yourself who are dragging the war out longer than necessary, a war that has cost too many lives and will no doubt cost billions more.

GoDGiVeR · 09/29/2007 13:37:13

Procurator wrote:

PS10N wrote:
"give us free access to your mainframe. If you don't, there are 500,000 Sentinels ready to destroy you."
Proof that this was a verbal threat, please.

I didn't think that you would lie to yourself there, Proc. It wasn't said directly, true, but everybody (including you) knows that what was being said by Pace / Gray (can't remember who made the request) indicates this very well.

The biggest threats are those which are hidden.

-Dedatorus

PS10N · 09/29/2007 13:49:45

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see. You refuse to accept the truth, the proof is right in front of your eyes. Zion never violated the Truce because building a safe city is a completely peaceful act. Machines violated the Truce with their first over-written Redpill because that isn't a peaceful act. The truce is one word, "peace." Zion's actions were completely peaceful, the Machine's actions were violent, aggressive and violating. You're trying to defend murders, liars and genocidal maniacs and you don't have a prosthetic leg to stand on.

"We were justified in killing all those people because they wanted to live in peace and safety and wouldn't be controlled with death threats and mind-*CENSORED*." Wow, what a great moral argument you have going for you.

The murder of everyone who was left in Old Zion is on the heads of all Machine Operatives, who seem to be desperately trying to justify attempted genocide. You are partly responsible for the cold blooded murder of hundreds of people and you're trying to justify it with words. Pathetic, simply and utterly pathetic of you.

GoDGiVeR · 09/29/2007 13:57:24

Croesus wrote:

You are not the future, the future is those of us who can see the big picture, who can ignore their own prejudice, who want all sides to live together in peace.

Machinists always claim to "see the bigger picture" but all they do is look at the picture the Machines made. It's the Machinists illusion that they are solution. That "higher than you" attitude is, of course, not unexpected.

It doesn't matter how many Machinists there are. If 90% of the whole redpill population were Machinists it wouldn't change as much as you guys hope. Although most Machinists seek "peace", it is in the end "their" peace they seek (same goes for everybody else I fear. It's just how many consent to the general concept). Many fail to see, peace cannot go with them alone. You are not the solution. And neither are EPN or Zionites, alone.

That is the problem, nobody can stand on all sides (if it was that way, we wouldn't have a problem, no?), and only one side can't solve the problem. That is why we need people who stand on neither side. Zion and Machines could only work together over a bridge and same goes for their operatives.

But I guess the "us" in "the future is those of us" are not merely Machinists, no? Otherwise you'd just make what I said sound worse.

Croesus wrote:

It is people such as yourself who are dragging the war out longer than necessary, a war that has cost too many lives and will no doubt cost billions more.

Peace is nothing else than the transition between wars, chaos the state of the universe as it has always been. What Neo did only gave us a short time to breath. War will cost billions more, but the question we should ask is: "How can be postpone or minimize those billions in the years, hopefully millenia, to come?"

One of the answers, the Cypherite one, which is basically shared by most Machinists, is the continuation of the cycle Neo broke and thus connected to the annihilation of the breeded "free" people.

I do not share this example answer, since it's a numerical solution. A logic, which I cannot follow as me (still) being human.

-GG

MetaLogic · 09/29/2007 14:12:23

PS10N wrote:

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see.

Then it wouldn't be very hard for you to find the source of your accusation and show us, right?

The barren of proof falls on those who need to prove something, IE you.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 15:19:31

GoDGiVeR wrote:

I didn't think that you would lie to yourself there, Proc. It wasn't said directly, true, but everybody (including you) knows that what was being said by Pace / Gray (can't remember who made the request) indicates this very well.

Could everyone stop saying stuff like this, please? I'm not lying to myself, I'm not deluding myself. If I've got something wrong it's because I've either forgotten the evidence against my claim or I've misinterpreted something. I'm not arguing out of dogma or faith, I'm arguing out of the evidence I see before me and the opinions I've formulated from it.

If there really was an implication that the Sentinels were placed around Zion purely because they didn't give the Machines access to their mainframe, I want someone to point me towards it.

PS10N wrote:

Wow the arrogance and ignorance of the Machine posts here is astounding. You're rebuttal to everything I said was "prove it." It's written history, it's well documented, it's all there for anyone to see. You refuse to accept the truth, the proof is right in front of your eyes. Zion never violated the Truce because building a safe city is a completely peaceful act. Machines violated the Truce with their first over-written Redpill because that isn't a peaceful act. The truce is one word, "peace." Zion's actions were completely peaceful, the Machine's actions were violent, aggressive and violating. You're trying to defend murders, liars and genocidal maniacs and you don't have a prosthetic leg to stand on.

"We were justified in killing all those people because they wanted to live in peace and safety and wouldn't be controlled with death threats and mind-*CENSORED*." Wow, what a great moral argument you have going for you.

The murder of everyone who was left in Old Zion is on the heads of all Machine Operatives, who seem to be desperately trying to justify attempted genocide. You are partly responsible for the cold blooded murder of hundreds of people and you're trying to justify it with words. Pathetic, simply and utterly pathetic of you.

Listen here, you. My 'rebuttals' were the same by design. I'm trying to point out that your arguments are pure dogma. I have seen no evidence. Maybe that's my problem, maybe I really am at fault for not seeing it. But it is up to you, as Meta rightly says, to prove it to me. You can't say things like 'it's well documented' and not use that fact to help your case. Go fetch me the evidence and if it corroborates your emphatic statements then I will admit my error.

Just stop trying to fling the same old stuff back at me without trying to reason or back-up your claims! It really is you that's looking like they've been through the brainwash tumbler.

PS10N · 09/29/2007 15:23:28

I need to prove that innocent men and women were slaughtered for no reason other than they wanted to be safe from being slaughtered? Don't think so.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 15:33:18

Then you fail in the eyes of reason. Simple as that. I'm sure others will back me up on that.

Oh yeah, and something I forgot to add (( and couldn't 'cos these forums are really driving me up the wall tonight )): where are you getting your statistics on who was left in Zion? I never saw a point in attacking Zion now that you've moved to New Zion, but were people actually killed in the process?

Croesis · 09/29/2007 15:50:31

GoDGiVeR wrote:

But I guess the "us" in "the future is those of us" are not merely Machinists, no? Otherwise you'd just make what I said sound worse.

Peace is nothing else than the transition between wars, chaos the state of the universe as it has always been. What Neo did only gave us a short time to breath. War will cost billions more, but the question we should ask is: "How can be postpone or minimize those billions in the years, hopefully millenia, to come?"

One of the answers, the Cypherite one, which is basically shared by most Machinists, is the continuation of the cycle Neo broke and thus connected to the annihilation of the breeded "free" people.

I do not share this example answer, since it's a numerical solution. A logic, which I cannot follow as me (still) being human.

-GG

You are correct the 'us' in my previous statement does not just mean Machinists, it means all intelligent life forms who can live peacefully together with no prejudice. Whereas I believe I can see the big picture and feel that I can be one of these people, the future may have other plans for me.

I think you'll find that many Machinists do not share the Cyph answer you suggested, many of us believe that Humankind including Bluepills, Zionites, Machinists possibly even Merovingian operatives will one day work together to repopulate the world alongside the Machines.
We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

There are, unfortunately, those in Zion, such as PS10N who persist in their allegations and their hatred toward the Machines and Machinists who, on their own, mean very little in the big picture, but if their propaganda and 'facts' with no proof spread to impressionable young minds in Zion then any attempts to cease hostilities will be futile.

Before anyone mentions it, yes I am aware that there may be Machines in 01 that are like him, vying to destroy all Zionites. It is up to each side to keep these people in check.

Once again I will state that building a new fortified city that allows attacks on the Machines and prevents retaliation is not a peaceful act. It shows intent at best. It is the ill guided actions of those in Zion who wanted more than they are capable of, to have the upper hand on the Machines, that caused the deaths in Zion. They would not be dead today if the leaders hadn't planned and built that new city in secret, that they new was a violation of the truce, and secured it against the Machines who, at that time, did not show any willingness to kill everyone in Zion at all.

And one more thing the Truce was not 'Peace'. Truces and Peace are separate things. If it was only one word then the stipulation about being allowed to awaken the 1% wouldn't have been in there...

PS10N · 09/29/2007 15:53:07

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide. That is an indisputable fact. You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason? You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic. Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe. You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent! You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it. "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!" oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes. New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies! Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act. Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us. We didn't break the Truce, ever. The Machines did, repeatedly. The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot. He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws. You're a fool to believe him.

Procurator · 09/29/2007 15:59:01

PS10N wrote:

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide. That is an indisputable fact. You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason? You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic. Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe. You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent! You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it. "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!" oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes. New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!

Oh no you don't. Don't change the subject. I'll deal with your claims regarding murder and genocide later, but right now I want proof of your earlier claims.

PS10N · 09/29/2007 16:05:24

I've never heard of a convicted murderer demanding that the Judge prove that murder isn't a crime. That's exactly what you keep babbling about here. It won't work in either case. You're guilty of the murder of innocents, that's a proven fact. I don't have to prove that murder is a crime.

Croesis · 09/29/2007 16:08:19

PS10N wrote:

I've never heard of a convicted murderer demanding that the Judge prove that murder isn't a crime. That's exactly what you keep babbling about here. It won't work in either case. You're guilty of the murder of innocents, that's a proven fact. I don't have to prove that murder is a crime.

and Zions murder of innocents? Did you forget about those? The bluepills tested on with 'improved' red pills, the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

You have still not provided proof for your earlier claims to Proc, the incessant rant about these things does not make them true, you need proof. Proof that you don't seem to have...

MetaLogic · 09/29/2007 16:39:33

PS10N wrote:

I need to prove that innocent men and women were slaughtered for no reason other than they wanted to be safe from being slaughtered? Don't think so.

Then you fail in this debate, and I don't see any reason to take you or your accusation seriously.