[8.2.5] We still haven't found Commander Lock - Syntax - 9/24/07

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

How is the Architect malfunctioning? 

Why did Zion keep the cheat codes for themselves and use them, when they knew the codes were stolen and also that the Machines felt they were too dangerous for even their own agents to use?

If the Machines really did send those 500,000 sentinels to Zion to attack them for not allowing access to their mainframe, why did they wait until now to attack?  Why not do it right after Zion said no?

Where are these documents that show the Machines were going to attack Zion whether New Zion had been found or not?

Until these questions can be answered with something other than "because I said so" -- or "because the Zion council said so -- I'm afraid that I, like most rational people, need some kind of evidence before believing these accusations.

Illyria

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion.  However that is probably the only "fact" in your argument.  Everything else is based on presumptions and biased reasoning.  But then again so is our viewpoint.  Welcome to limbo.  No one ever "wins" the debate, they merely keep it alive.

I'm a machinist, you are not.  You will never understand me or convince me otherwise.  Surrender now.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

PS10N wrote:

The Machines are guilty of premeditated murder with intent to commit genocide.  That is an indisputable fact.  You're trying to justify wholesale unprovoked murder but you say I fail in the eyes of reason?  You fail in the eyes of morals, ethics, humanity and logic.  Sorry, but you are saying that murder of innocent children is OK because they wanted to be safe.  You fail in the eyes of everything.

"We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species"

The Machines are untrustworthy and violent!  You can't hold others to a standard while failing that standard worse that those you would try to hold to it.  "Be trustworthy and non-violent or we'll betray our word and slaughter you violently!"  oh, yes, what perfect sense that makes.  New Zion doesn't allow attacks on the Machines in the Real, that's another one of your lies!  Building New Zion was a completely peaceful, non-violent act.  Over writing Redpills was a violent attack on us.  We didn't break the Truce, ever.  The Machines did, repeatedly.  The Architect isn't an infallible God whose words are indisputable truth, he's a malfunctioning obsolete program whose original purpose is now moot.  He's desperately trying to avoid deletion by his own kind and is grasping at straws.  You're a fool to believe him.

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion.  However that is probably the only "fact" in your argument.  Everything else is based on presumptions and biased reasoning.  But then again so is our viewpoint.  Welcome to limbo.  No one ever "wins" the debate, they merely keep it alive.

I'm a machinist, you are not.  You will never understand me or convince me otherwise.  Surrender now.

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Croesus wrote:

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

Croesus wrote:

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

Jesus Christ. That with the Agents is soley the Machines fault. It's their fault for making programs that need to overwrite others in order to work.

-GG

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:

We feel, though, that this cannot be done until Humankind has proven themselves to be trustworthy and non violent as a species.

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

Well if you can program the Matrix so that 100% of the humans accept the program, then by all means show it.  Also, what Zionist keep on forgetting, and I don't know why, but guess what.  Humans lost the first Man/Machine war.  They lost!  Zion was on the verge of losing their war, but Neo brokered a truce just in time to stop the squigges from destroying Zion again.

In the world of War, the side that loses do not get to set the term.  Humans lost, Zion lost, so they do not get to set the term of the truce.

However, I know this is just going to get ignored by Zionist, which I find funny because they are acting like such Cypherite in this manner, I guess Ignorance really is Bliss isn't it?

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Croesus wrote:

the scores of bluepills temporarily overwritten by Agents killed when you decided to fight instead of running? What do you call that? Self defence?

Jesus Christ. That with the Agents is soley the Machines fault. It's their fault for making programs that need to overwrite others in order to work.

-GG

It's a protective system, you know when you fight an Agent that it is using a bluepill, so the Agent performs it's duty two fold, attacking, to get you to stop and, unless you're in a group large enough, run. Otherwise you know you will kill a bluepill that day. The blood is entirely on your hands.

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Please proof to us that the Machines are a trustworthy non-violent species, KTHXBYE

Or is anihilating a million people just for the sake of an obsolete cyclic system non-violent?

-Dedatorus

The Machines are only violent toward Humankind because Humankind know no better, if Humankind was to evolve past its violence and hatred, the Machines would have no need to be violent. That's the problem, the Machines can be non violent, it was them who originally sought peace with Humankind and kept to the recent truce. Humankind's nature is to be savage and violent and while they are, so will the Machines.

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me. 

r3spon5e wrote:

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

Indeed. Just keep in mind that Zion has blood on its own hands as well. No one is innocent here.

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

Garu wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

Garu wrote:

Yes, the machines do kill and commit genocide upon Zion. 

Enough said.

Indeed. Just keep in mind that Zion has blood on its own hands as well. No one is innocent here.

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

Cept me.
((Fairy liquid cleans all ^.^))

Roukan wrote:

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me. 

Garu wrote:

Roukan wrote:

I was once you, and you were once me. We were friends, now we are enemies. We are closer than most humans can ever say. I understand you, Garutachi, but that does not mean you are right. I will protect children, and you will kill them so you are safe.

Your flesh is gone, your humanity with it. Lay down your hostile arms and embrace me as a friend, or a bullet will pierce that skull of yours. A shame to shatter such beauty, but what must be done what must be done.

You say you understand me yet you deny my truth.  If you truly understand me, then you know why I am a machinist.  Funny that you should deny me my humanity just because you don't believe in what I do any more.

You are my friend, Roukan.  But rest assured that if comes down to you or my dream, then you shall perish before me. 

Our truths are not truth at all, but we fight like they are. I believe in what you do, I'm just going about it a different way. I would have no quarrel with Niobe or Locke dying, but innocents no.

 I would love to know where people draw the Line between Hostiles and Innocent. I mean for example Some people think that everyone in Zion is a hostile when not all of them are just The Military and Zion Command. I wish I could say All Bluepills innocents when not all of them are, some work for The Machines knowingly and unknowingly in Security and other areas of employment.

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

Also I have heard from Machinists that it isn't too late to negotiate with them. Why? why would we negotiate with The People who started this War and worse just destroyed Old Zion? We might have negotiated with you possibly, but One must negotiate from a position of strength and also to cease all hostilities. By attacking Old Zion you have lost all credibility with us. Then again you didn't even cease hostilities when Neo negotiated with you and he nearly didn't make it, maybe it is time you approached us, after all you are the one's who are attacking and started this War, you should be theone's who should approach us.

Exactly, noone is innocent. Everyone has blood on their hands.

The free-born that lives in Zion that has ever known anything other than hiding from the Machine; The man or woman that has never lived inside the Matrix, that only wants to live in freedom in the real world is innocent in my eyes. JUST as innocent as the countless bluepills that live their lives, oblivious to the prison their minds are in.

But hey, I guess they're just necessary casualties in an objective, so long as the gears of the Machine continue to turn.

Come on, Ez, all you have to do is surrender and no one else has to get hurt.  What's more important?  Your life and your pride or their safety?

((evil, heartless machinist FTW! MUHAHA))

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

Also I have heard from Machinists that it isn't too late to negotiate with them. Why? why would we negotiate with The People who started this War and worse just destroyed Old Zion? We might have negotiated with you possibly, but One must negotiate from a position of strength and also to cease all hostilities. By attacking Old Zion you have lost all credibility with us. Then again you didn't even cease hostilities when Neo negotiated with you and he nearly didn't make it, maybe it is time you approached us, after all you are the one's who are attacking and started this War, you should be theone's who should approach us.

Perhaps the reason many Machinists are more vocal about their position on the War is simply because we are the ones who are constantly being questioned about it.  If we respond to the questioning, we're considered guilty of trying to explain things away.  If we didn't respond to the questioning, we'd likely be considered guilty because of our silence.  In the end, we speak because we can.  If we can support our stance and attempt to explain the way we feel, as well as attempting to explain how the Machines themselves may have arrived at the conclusions they've reached, I don't see why we shouldn't.  It's better than spouting rhetoric or baseless accusations.

I won't bother, however, explaining the situation about the war again.. it's been done by so many and done so many times, if it's not clear by now how the majority of Machinists feel about things, then it won't be made clear by me stating it either.

And Yes Both Zionites and Machinists are bickering back and forth about This War. Although I see The Machinists doing it more than Zionites, makes me wonder if they are saying we are the guilty one's to make themselves better so as to not feel guilty when in some ways they are. Heck we both have people on both sides that don't feel great about this War, But I'm sure me and my fellow Zionites don't have as many regrets as The Machinists do, otherwise why would they be trying to prove themselves?

I think most Machinists regret that it's come to this, not that we ourselves have done something wrong.  I regret that Zion command *knowingly* chose a path that would lead back to open warfare and endanger the lives of all its citizens, and I regret that awakenings are no longer permitted by the system.  But the Machinists didn't want this war to start up again; in fact, many of us worked very hard trying to convince the Zionites that the truce should be upheld.

My only personal regret is that I was unable to accomplish this. 

Illyria

Machinists are more vocal because there is literally no credibility left for anyone to associate with them... examined from a purely human point of view (which we are sadly all forced to be) the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Equally the behaviour of the machines in recent times has also been every bit as knee jerk and emotional as any human - all the reasons that could have been offered to make them credible allies, their logic their efficiency their resourcefulness etc or any suggestion they are somehow more worthy of dominion than any other groupd here have really been wiped out.

Not that this makes any other org any more valid just that the machines had all the most assured arguments and now they have none and only a complete absence of consequence allows us to continue.

Pyraci wrote:

The free-born that lives in Zion that has ever known anything other than hiding from the Machine; The man or woman that has never lived inside the Matrix, that only wants to live in freedom in the real world is innocent in my eyes. JUST as innocent as the countless bluepills that live their lives, oblivious to the prison their minds are in.

But hey, I guess they're just necessary casualties in an objective, so long as the gears of the Machine continue to turn.

Come on, Ez, all you have to do is surrender and no one else has to get hurt.  What's more important?  Your life and your pride or their safety?

((evil, heartless machinist FTW! MUHAHA))

 the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Prior to the overwriting, Cryptos was an even bigger fanatic than Morpheus and the Kid combined -- he hated the Machines so much that he wanted to get back at them by using nuclear weapons in the simulation to kill millions of bluepills.  Thankfully, the man he once was is dead.

Pyraci wrote:

I'll surrender when the Machine is no longer gunning for my people, or when I give up the ghost, whichever comes first. We are their defense and safety. The Machine doesn't care whether we're pod-born or free-born, and if given the chance, they'd rip through the new city just as they did the old one.

But then again, I don't think I've heard much of a machinist comeback on the subject of the free-born, so I'll let that point stand.

The deaths of the freeborn who wanted to live in peace with the Machines are as regrettable as the deaths of any Zionite redpill who also wanted peace.  No Machinist is taking pleasure in the deaths of these innocent people, just as the allies didn't take pleasure in the deaths of civilians during the bombing of Dresden in WW2.  But Zion's leaders made their choice to act in a way they knew the Machines would see as a threat, and as we all know, actions have consequences. 

I wonder what would have happened if Zion had put it to a vote -- to either stay in Zion with the truce in effect (knowing that the sentinels were still there as a deterrent to any anti-truce acts Zion might want to commit), or to build New Zion (knowing this would be seen as a threatening act by the Machines that would cause the truce to fail). 

Perhaps Zion command should step down and let the general population have a bigger voice in the creation of their city's policies.  For all their crowing about freedom of choice, Zion's leadership has been remarkably restrictive when it comes to letting their average citizens participate in decision-making.  Do you think the typical Zionite would have supported Anome's ascension to a position of power?  Or Niobe's waste of Zion's resources in pursuing her vendetta against the Merovingian?  Or the training of the General and his commandos? 

Maybe if they had a bigger voice in their government, or even if their government was a little more open with them about what it was doing, enough people would have expressed their doubts about any (or all) of these plans to make Zion command think twice before making its next ill-advised decision.

Illyria 

Annakonder wrote:

 the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Prior to the overwriting, Cryptos was an even bigger fanatic than Morpheus and the Kid combined -- he hated the Machines so much that he wanted to get back at them by using nuclear weapons in the simulation to kill millions of bluepills.  Thankfully, the man he once was is dead.

Pyraci wrote:

I'll surrender when the Machine is no longer gunning for my people, or when I give up the ghost, whichever comes first. We are their defense and safety. The Machine doesn't care whether we're pod-born or free-born, and if given the chance, they'd rip through the new city just as they did the old one.

But then again, I don't think I've heard much of a machinist comeback on the subject of the free-born, so I'll let that point stand.

The deaths of the freeborn who wanted to live in peace with the Machines are as regrettable as the deaths of any Zionite redpill who also wanted peace.  No Machinist is taking pleasure in the deaths of these innocent people, just as the allies didn't take pleasure in the deaths of civilians during the bombing of Dresden in WW2.  But Zion's leaders made their choice to act in a way they knew the Machines would see as a threat, and as we all know, actions have consequences. 

I wonder what would have happened if Zion had put it to a vote -- to either stay in Zion with the truce in effect (knowing that the sentinels were still there as a deterrent to any anti-truce acts Zion might want to commit), or to build New Zion (knowing this would be seen as a threatening act by the Machines that would cause the truce to fail). 

Perhaps Zion command should step down and let the general population have a bigger voice in the creation of their city's policies.  For all their crowing about freedom of choice, Zion's leadership has been remarkably restrictive when it comes to letting their average citizens participate in decision-making.  Do you think the typical Zionite would have supported Anome's ascension to a position of power?  Or Niobe's waste of Zion's resources in pursuing her vendetta against the Merovingian?  Or the training of the General and his commandos? 

Maybe if they had a bigger voice in their government, or even if their government was a little more open with them about what it was doing, enough people would have expressed their doubts about any (or all) of these plans to make Zion command think twice before making its next ill-advised decision.

Illyria 

Annakonder wrote:

 the overwriting of Cryptos, making him the very thing he hated is perhaps the most obscene and violent assault on humanity possible - a literal fate worse than death - glossed over in the story but the resonance of this is in very real terms crippling to any validity in support.

Prior to the overwriting, Cryptos was an even bigger fanatic than Morpheus and the Kid combined -- he hated the Machines so much that he wanted to get back at them by using nuclear weapons in the simulation to kill millions of bluepills.  Thankfully, the man he once was is dead.

Pyraci wrote:

I'll surrender when the Machine is no longer gunning for my people, or when I give up the ghost, whichever comes first. We are their defense and safety. The Machine doesn't care whether we're pod-born or free-born, and if given the chance, they'd rip through the new city just as they did the old one.

But then again, I don't think I've heard much of a machinist comeback on the subject of the free-born, so I'll let that point stand.

The deaths of the freeborn who wanted to live in peace with the Machines are as regrettable as the deaths of any Zionite redpill who also wanted peace.  No Machinist is taking pleasure in the deaths of these innocent people, just as the allies didn't take pleasure in the deaths of civilians during the bombing of Dresden in WW2.  But Zion's leaders made their choice to act in a way they knew the Machines would see as a threat, and as we all know, actions have consequences. 

I wonder what would have happened if Zion had put it to a vote -- to either stay in Zion with the truce in effect (knowing that the sentinels were still there as a deterrent to any anti-truce acts Zion might want to commit), or to build New Zion (knowing this would be seen as a threatening act by the Machines that would cause the truce to fail). 

Perhaps Zion command should step down and let the general population have a bigger voice in the creation of their city's policies.  For all their crowing about freedom of choice, Zion's leadership has been remarkably restrictive when it comes to letting their average citizens participate in decision-making.  Do you think the typical Zionite would have supported Anome's ascension to a position of power?  Or Niobe's waste of Zion's resources in pursuing her vendetta against the Merovingian?  Or the training of the General and his commandos? 

Maybe if they had a bigger voice in their government, or even if their government was a little more open with them about what it was doing, enough people would have expressed their doubts about any (or all) of these plans to make Zion command think twice before making its next ill-advised decision.

Illyria 

*sighs the patient sigh of a teacher dealing with a particularly obtuse student*

Let's go through this again, shall we?

Without the Unreality of the Matrix, Anome would have never have lost his mind.

Without the Sentinel army hovering directly over Zion, The Council would not have felt the need to build a new city.

Without the human race being subjected to the slavery and oppression of the Machines, there would be no need for this war.

The General was a construction of the Machines.

And it would have been more humane to kill Cryptos, rather than reprogramming his brain and making him a puppet of the regime. But, that is the Machine for you. It will exploit every human on the planet if left unchecked.

Zion Command, indeed all of us freed humans, are doing the best we can to save the human race.

*sighs the patient sigh of a teacher dealing with a particularly obtuse student*

Let's go through this again, shall we?

Without the Unreality of the Matrix, Anome would have never have lost his mind.

Without the Sentinel army hovering directly over Zion, The Council would not have felt the need to build a new city.

Without the human race being subjected to the slavery and oppression of the Machines, there would be no need for this war.

The General was a construction of the Machines.

And it would have been more humane to kill Cryptos, rather than reprogramming his brain and making him a puppet of the regime. But, that is the Machine for you. It will exploit every human on the planet if left unchecked.

Zion Command, indeed all of us freed humans, are doing the best we can to save the human race.

and meanwhile, the rest of us will worry about the 99% of humanity who are still in the pods.

Without the Sentinel army hovering directly over Zion, The Council would not have felt the need to build a new city.

But because you built New Zion, now you know for sure the machines want to kill you. Before that it was still up in the air.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

But because you built New Zion, now you know for sure the machines want to kill you. Before that it was still up in the air.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle!

I did say that Zion had created a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Illyria