[8.2.1] It should help us plan our strike on the lines - Recursion - 8/23/07

Neo's first goal was to destroy the machines, then he wanted to save humanity. I believe Zion did the right thing. If they bent over for the Machines at every whim then it'd be just like we were bluepills again. Under THEIR control. They gave us a truce, then broke it straight off the bat and expected Zion to be nice like fluffy bunnies.

That's where we differ, Roukan.  I believe that Neo evolved from the generic "machines are bad, destroy kthx" to realizing that the machines were much more than what everyone presumed they were.  Remember Rama-kandra and what he taught Neo?  In the end, to quote Morpheus, "he saved them all".

Furthermore, the rest of your statement is heavily flawed, imo.  First of all, Zion exists as a measure of control.  It always has.  Secondly, paranoia broke the truce, which is both sides fault.  Only a biased, simpleton would try pointing the finger at just one side.  Both sides messed, so deal it.  ACCEPT it.

Paranoia by Zion led to a new city.  Paranoia by Machines led to the belief that New Zion is hostile. 

Roukan wrote:

Neo's first goal was to destroy the machines, then he wanted to save humanity. I believe Zion did the right thing. If they bent over for the Machines at every whim then it'd be just like we were bluepills again. Under THEIR control. They gave us a truce, then broke it straight off the bat and expected Zion to be nice like fluffy bunnies.

That's where we differ, Roukan.  I believe that Neo evolved from the generic "machines are bad, destroy kthx" to realizing that the machines were much more than what everyone presumed they were.  Remember Rama-kandra and what he taught Neo?  In the end, to quote Morpheus, "he saved them all".

Furthermore, the rest of your statement is heavily flawed, imo.  First of all, Zion exists as a measure of control.  It always has.  Secondly, paranoia broke the truce, which is both sides fault.  Only a biased, simpleton would try pointing the finger at just one side.  Both sides messed, so deal it.  ACCEPT it.

Paranoia by Zion led to a new city.  Paranoia by Machines led to the belief that New Zion is hostile. 

Blaming the Machines for everything the Cypherites have done is a bit like blaming parents for everything their adult children have done.  The parents may have been responsible for the creation of that child, but what the child does as an adult is that individual's choice.  And ultimately, most of the destructive acts of the Cypherites have been planned and carried out by humans. 

Perhaps if Zion had stuck to awakening only those who wanted to be awakened, there would have been fewer dissatisfied redpills angry enough at Zion to destroy their ships and pull their crew's jacks while the truce was still in effect.

Illyria 

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.  The archived record shows him saying he wanted peace.  What Neo wanted doesn't matter to me, but shouldn't it matter to EPN?  Twisting his words and his memory to support something your group wants it to support seems a bit heretical. 

PPS: Word of warning here: if EPN's leadership suddenly produces previously-unknown "evidence" that nobody else has ever seen or heard about before, it's probably something they made up themselves.  The same goes for "evidence" sent to them by Neo from beyond the grave.

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Illyria22 wrote:

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Congrats, you're an idiot. It was a war back then.

And it's still a war.  Don't call people names, Roukan.  It doesn't exactly enhance your point.

Everytime your machinists friends say it's Zion's fault, I get insulted for saying it's both. Look at my past transmissions and tell me where have I said it's all zion's fault? Open your eyes dear Machinist, if anything learn that from Morpheus. Just because I chose to extend on the reason why it's Machines fault as well, does not make it that I believe it's only their fault.

That may be but keep in mind my argument is that its BOTH sides fault.  Everyone is guilty.  May there be mercy on us all.

Roukan wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

PS: There is no way to know if Neo's first goal was to destroy the Machines, as there's no evidence for it.

Congrats, you're an idiot. It was a war back then.

And it's still a war.  Don't call people names, Roukan.  It doesn't exactly enhance your point.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

Sphairo87 wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people. 

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

So what would you do, if the shoe was on the other foot?  Slap the machines on the wrist for making a secret base hidden from you?  Would you tell them they were bad and put them in the corner?  What exactly would you do if ZION was the controlling body and the machines were the minority?

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Sphairo87 wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Machines would send an army of sentinels and kill everyone in it. Men, woman, children.. babies.

Indeed. But what is the mass murder of half a million free people compared to being able to keep an entire race enslaved?

Two tears in a bucket is what it is. Even the people born in the Matrix have a choice to reject the system if they subconsciously want out, but the free born who are no less "innocent" don't have that choice. The Machine is more than willing to end their lives all the same if necessary.

- Ezechiel

Roukan wrote:

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people.  " />

Yeah, Zeke. I guess we should have thought about that before we moved to a better hole in the ground, huh? Bad Zion! Bad!

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Yeah, Zeke. I guess we should have thought about that before we moved to a better hole in the ground, huh? Bad Zion! Bad!

Oh yeah you got it! You hit it on the head right there! Heaven forbid we all be HUMANS and multiply beyond the walls of Zion and spread out beyond the little hole they've got their shotguns pointed at. But then again all we want to do be warmongers and terrorists because that's all our existence amounts to, supposedly.

Oh yeah you got it! You hit it on the head right there! Heaven forbid we all be HUMANS and multiply beyond the walls of Zion and spread out beyond the little hole they've got their shotguns pointed at. But then again all we want to do be warmongers and terrorists because that's all our existence amounts to, supposedly.

Garu wrote:

Roukan wrote:

No, but if it can catch her eye and teach her something, then it's worth it.

Yeah but it doesn't.  It just makes you look like you have nothing else to offer other than insults.  You have to understand, everyone for that matter, we've all come to our conclusions already.  You can argue until you're blue in the face but it DOES NOT change anything.  The only time people change their mind is when their character changes organizations.

So why do I bother?  I just talking to people.  ">

No we haven't we just know that if we disagree with the orgainisation a)We miss out on events b)Some people in the org believe they are leaders of it and what they say is right and no one elses opinion counts. Most people follow this idoits like blind mice

((This, coming from the guy who follows Havocide around as though he hung the moon? Oh, that's rich!

Retro, I know of whom you are referring to, and the fact of the matter is - everyone else is rp-ing this org the way they're supposed to be doing! What you don't seem to be getting is that EPN is supposed to be on the attack in this war! EPN isn't ever going to just sit back and wait to see what's going to happen! Hell, there aren't many Zion factions that aren't fighting, let alone EPN.

You've been preaching peace since day one, but we're supposed to be in a war for Christ's sake! How else would you have everyone RP a war?!?

If, by some slim chance, you are roleplaying that your character is a pacifist and would be preaching peace IC, then I apologize. But then, if that is the case, you're in the wrong org, man.))

Blaming the Machines for everything the Cypherites have done is a bit like blaming parents for everything their adult children have done.  The parents may have been responsible for the creation of that child, but what the child does as an adult is that individual's choice.  And ultimately, most of the destructive acts of the Cypherites have been planned and carried out by humans. 

Perhaps if Zion had stuck to awakening only those who wanted to be awakened, there would have been fewer dissatisfied redpills angry enough at Zion to destroy their ships and pull their crew's jacks while the truce was still in effect.

The Cypherites are hardly what you can conceder an "adult" they are still watched over and cared for by the Machines. It's the parents job to teach there kids and to correct them when they mess up, something the Machines never once have done with the Cypherites. If the Machines had actually done something about Veil, the bombing of the Terra Nova or any other mission that the Cypherites pulled the plugs on a Zionite we wouldn't be in this mess. The Machines are the parents of the child that is the Cypherites and they still are held responsible for there child's actions.

Zion stuck to its side of the bargain and just because a minority of them went outside the bounds doesn't give the Machines to right to attack all of Zion for it. That's as bad as assuming every Muslim is a terrorist or every priest a child molester.

Sadly, the Machines paranoia and unwillingness to make any great steps for peace has led to this conflict. War is now an inevitability.

While I personally am unsure about the astuteness on a tactical level of this plan, I do have faith in The Kid. No matter how many claims machinists may care to make about EPN's propensity for going out on suicide missions, we're still around, alive and kicking. Unfortunately for them, should we act on this plan, I am determined (and I would wager that most other EPNs would agree) to avoid having to push up any daisies now, and for any time in the near future.

Let's be honest here, it's the Machines who were more scared of Zion, for it was they who attacked us.  Why are they afraid of us? Because they knew that eventually, we wouldn't be able to tolerate constant terror and oppression. They knew that while we would accept a truce out of desperation and hope to live, we would eventually grow sick of living under the constant threat of death. For things to truly have a hope of changing, they to would have to make a serious effort. And that would be something unacceptable, and worse, illogical to the Machines. Why compromise with others when you can simply force them to accept your orders?

EPN is fighting to free mankind from tyranny. If grave risks must be taken, so be it. We haven't lost yet, and we don't plan to soon.

The Machines offered the hand of friendship to humanity on multiple occasions before the original war, only to have it slapped away every time.  And from wanting to be acknowledged as sentient being with rights (after B166ER), to wanting to live as equals (trying to join the UN), to finally just wanting to live (trying to survive the war that humanity declared on them, and the darkening of the skies that was meant to destroy them all)...each and every time, humans have behaved abominably towards them.  'Worse than animals', as my grandmother would have said.  You say the Machines are paranoid...jeez, I would be too, if I were them!  No wonder they don't want to let humans out of their pods.  What proof can Zion give them that New Zion isn't going to be a base where they can launch attacks -- without fear of reprisal -- on the Matrix and the Machines in the real world?  EPN is already doing it.  Can you show them that New Zion isn't going to start this as well?

Illyria

I personally find this argument, which it seems to me that Machinists generally revert to when the Machines are accused of outrageous deeds, to be dull, and proof that Machinists wish to live in the past like the machines.

You are right in one respect. Our ancestors did behave appallingly to the machines a number of centuries ago. But trying to compare the humans of the past to the humans of the present is a grave mistake. A mistake that unfortunately, you appear to have a propensity for making.

Humanity is no longer the great threat to the machines that we once were. The chances of the small amount of awakened humans being able to defeat the machine armies in the real are tiny. The idea that humans would suddenly begin to attack the machines is simply unfeasible, with our current numbers, we would be incapable of doing so. But humanity doesn't want to attack the machines any more. All we want is to be free to live. Free to live in peace. But the machines have never provided us with peace. Since the darkening of the skies, every single generation of mankind that came after our ancestors, every generation that learned from and lamented their mistakes, has been met with the same attitudes from the machines. At worst we have known brutal tyranny. At best we have known a truce. But (as both sides in this argument seem to agree) we have never known true peace.

If you asked every single Zion or EPN operative whether they think it was a good idea for humanity to treat the machines in such a way that war would soon follow on because of their own blind hatred, I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone who would reply positively. The fact that you can state yourself that [the machines wanted] “to live as equals," and "finally just want[ed] to live" without realising your own hypocrisy is quite frankly astonishing. Why do you think New Zion was built? Do you think that perhaps it is because the humans in Zion were afraid of living with a machine army constantly pointing at them? Do you think that, considering how strained machine-human relations occasionally became, they were afraid of being attacked? Do you think that a city of men, women and children were afraid of being killed?
I know that you think the machines were afraid of being destroyed. Funny how the machines seem unable to apply the lessons learned from anything that happened to them, to others.

You are trapped in the mindset of the past, that all humanity's desire is to wipe the machines from the face of the planet. From an optimistic viewpoint, this means you are simply misguided and have so far never attempted to confront reality. From a pessimists view, this means you are actively deluding yourself, and are either incapable of confronting reality, or simply refuse to do so. We don't want to destroy all machines. I, would gladly live in a time of peace, were neither humans nor machines had to fear attacks from the other, were humankind and machine kind worked together to try to make the future a better place to live in. But, as I have already stated, this will never happen unless the machines make steps for peace. And if there is one thing we can see from the machines dissolution of the truce, it’s that they hunger for war, not peace.

I personally find this argument, which it seems to me that Machinists generally revert to when the Machines are accused of outrageous deeds, to be dull, and proof that Machinists wish to live in the past like the machines.

You are right in one respect. Our ancestors did behave appallingly to the machines a number of centuries ago. But trying to compare the humans of the past to the humans of the present is a grave mistake. A mistake that unfortunately, you appear to have a propensity for making.

I am merely stating how the Machines regard the possible threat posed by humans...this is not my 'mistaken' view of our species, but rather the Machines' view of us.

But really, have we changed all that much?  How have we demonstrated that we, as a species, have progressed and become better people than our ancestors were?

TheMagus wrote:

Humanity is no longer the great threat to the machines that we once were. The chances of the small amount of awakened humans being able to defeat the machine armies in the real are tiny. The idea that humans would suddenly begin to attack the machines is simply unfeasible, with our current numbers, we would be incapable of doing so. But humanity doesn't want to attack the machines any more.

Really?  EPN attacked them in the real just a few days ago. 

 TheMagus wrote:

All we want is to be free to live. Free to live in peace. But the machines have never provided us with peace. Since the darkening of the skies, every single generation of mankind that came after our ancestors, every generation that learned from and lamented their mistakes, has been met with the same attitudes from the machines. At worst we have known brutal tyranny. At best we have known a truce. But (as both sides in this argument seem to agree) we have never known true peace.

An EPN liaison told me there would never be peace while the Machines still exist.

TheMagus wrote:

If you asked every single Zion or EPN operative whether they think it was a good idea for humanity to treat the machines in such a way that war would soon follow on because of their own blind hatred, I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone who would reply positively.

Nothing like 20/20 hindsight. 

TheMagus wrote:

 The fact that you can state yourself that [the machines wanted] "to live as equals," and "finally just want[ed] to live" without realising your own hypocrisy is quite frankly astonishing. Why do you think New Zion was built? Do you think that perhaps it is because the humans in Zion were afraid of living with a machine army constantly pointing at them? Do you think that, considering how strained machine-human relations occasionally became, they were afraid of being attacked? Do you think that a city of men, women and children were afraid of being killed?
I know that you think the machines were afraid of being destroyed. Funny how the machines seem unable to apply the lessons learned from anything that happened to them, to others.

You are trapped in the mindset of the past, that all humanity's desire is to wipe the machines from the face of the planet. From an optimistic viewpoint, this means you are simply misguided and have so far never attempted to confront reality. From a pessimists view, this means you are actively deluding yourself, and are either incapable of confronting reality, or simply refuse to do so. We don't want to destroy all machines. I, would gladly live in a time of peace, were neither humans nor machines had to fear attacks from the other, were humankind and machine kind worked together to try to make the future a better place to live in.

You are confusing my beliefs with those of the Machines.  Show *them* that you don't want to wipe them all out. 

TheMagus wrote:

And if there is one thing we can see from the machines dissolution of the truce, it's that they hunger for war, not peace.

If this were true, they would have broken the truce and destroyed Zion the instant Smith was no longer a threat. 

If this were true, they never would have allowed human operatives to work for their organization.

If this were true, they would have destroyed Zion as soon as they learned about New Zion -- killing everyone who hadn't been relocated to the new city.

Illyria

TheMagus wrote:

I personally find this argument, which it seems to me that Machinists generally revert to when the Machines are accused of outrageous deeds, to be dull, and proof that Machinists wish to live in the past like the machines.

You are right in one respect. Our ancestors did behave appallingly to the machines a number of centuries ago. But trying to compare the humans of the past to the humans of the present is a grave mistake. A mistake that unfortunately, you appear to have a propensity for making.

I am merely stating how the Machines regard the possible threat posed by humans...this is not my 'mistaken' view of our species, but rather the Machines' view of us.

But really, have we changed all that much?  How have we demonstrated that we, as a species, have progressed and become better people than our ancestors were?

Illyria22 wrote:

TheMagus wrote:

All we want is to be free to live. Free to live in peace. But the machines have never provided us with peace. Since the darkening of the skies, every single generation of mankind that came after our ancestors, every generation that learned from and lamented their mistakes, has been met with the same attitudes from the machines. At worst we have known brutal tyranny. At best we have known a truce. But (as both sides in this argument seem to agree) we have never known true peace.

An EPN liaison told me there would never be peace while the Machines still exist.

Illyria22 wrote:

TheMagus wrote:

If you asked every single Zion or EPN operative whether they think it was a good idea for humanity to treat the machines in such a way that war would soon follow on because of their own blind hatred, I believe you would be hard pressed to find someone who would reply positively.

Nothing like 20/20 hindsight. 

Illyria22 wrote:

TheMagus wrote:

The fact that you can state yourself that [the machines wanted] "to live as equals," and "finally just want[ed] to live" without realising your own hypocrisy is quite frankly astonishing. Why do you think New Zion was built? Do you think that perhaps it is because the humans in Zion were afraid of living with a machine army constantly pointing at them? Do you think that, considering how strained machine-human relations occasionally became, they were afraid of being attacked? Do you think that a city of men, women and children were afraid of being killed?
I know that you think the machines were afraid of being destroyed. Funny how the machines seem unable to apply the lessons learned from anything that happened to them, to others.

You are trapped in the mindset of the past, that all humanity's desire is to wipe the machines from the face of the planet. From an optimistic viewpoint, this means you are simply misguided and have so far never attempted to confront reality. From a pessimists view, this means you are actively deluding yourself, and are either incapable of confronting reality, or simply refuse to do so. We don't want to destroy all machines. I, would gladly live in a time of peace, were neither humans nor machines had to fear attacks from the other, were humankind and machine kind worked together to try to make the future a better place to live in.

You are confusing my beliefs with those of the Machines.  Show *them* that you don't want to wipe them all out.

Illyria22 wrote:

TheMagus wrote:

And if there is one thing we can see from the machines dissolution of the truce, it's that they hunger for war, not peace.

If this were true, they would have broken the truce and destroyed Zion the instant Smith was no longer a threat.

Illyria22 wrote:

If this were true, they never would have allowed human operatives to work for their organization.

Illyria22 wrote:

If this were true, they would have destroyed Zion as soon as they learned about New Zion -- killing everyone who hadn't been relocated to the new city.

I am a Machinist, but my views are not a Machine's.  So as I said before, you need to convince the Machines, not me, that this new city is not a threat to their race.

Illyria

Correction: We don't need to convince the Machine of anything. It's not up to us alone to end this conflict.

Pyraci wrote:

Correction: We don't need to convince the Machine of anything. It's not up to us alone to end this conflict.

"Niobe: He gave us two years to prepare, let us make sure it wasn't a waste."  (paraphrasing but close.)

Woops, thanks for reminding me that all Zionites/EPNs are infact clones of their leaders making it impossible for their opinions to diverge just the tiniest bit!

Niobe is trying to rouse the morale of our fighters. If we interpreted every comment made by Gray and Pace literally, you machinists would seem just like a bunch of ruthless, authoritarian control freaks. Hmmm. Perhaps "Would seem even more like ruthless, authoritarian control freaks," would be more accurate.

you need to convince the Machines, not me, that this new city is not a threat to their race.

Correction: We don't need to convince the Machine of anything. It's not up to us alone to end this conflict.

But this is precisely why the Machines reacted the way they did when they learned about New Zion -- they're concerned that New Zion is a base that will be used for this purpose!  If this city didn't appear to be a threat to their species' survival, do you think their reaction would have been as intense? 

Illyria

I know why the machine reacted the way it did when the pigs went and snitched to them. They're concerned because they can't control Zion, and they can't go and crush the puny little humans when they think we're acting up now. The city isn't a threat to their survival, it's a threat to their control. That lack of control scares them. When there's no longer the possibility of an army of sentinels and who-knows-what-else coming to destroy us, then we can talk about not having a "fortified base" anymore.

"Scares" is not the right word, Brother. I would say something like, "frightens them like little children who have woken up from a nap and can't find their parents," or "terrifies them into acting like animals that instinctively attack what they don't understand."

But I am with you; let the Machine throw down their weapons and come to us with the white flag of Peace. Certainly they could not be afraid of us attacking them under a flag of truce?

Pyraci wrote:

I know why the machine reacted the way it did when the pigs went and snitched to them. They're concerned because they can't control Zion, and they can't go and crush the puny little humans when they think we're acting up now. The city isn't a threat to their survival, it's a threat to their control. That lack of control scares them. When there's no longer the possibility of an army of sentinels and who-knows-what-else coming to destroy us, then we can talk about not having a "fortified base" anymore.

"Scares" is not the right word, Brother. I would say something like, "frightens them like little children who have woken up from a nap and can't find their parents," or "terrifies them into acting like animals that instinctively attack what they don't understand."

But I am with you; let the Machine throw down their weapons and come to us with the white flag of Peace. Certainly they could not be afraid of us attacking them under a flag of truce?

Illyria22 wrote:

you need to convince the Machines, not me, that this new city is not a threat to their race.

Pyraci wrote:

Correction: We don't need to convince the Machine of anything. It's not up to us alone to end this conflict.

But this is precisely why the Machines reacted the way they did when they learned about New Zion -- they're concerned that New Zion is a base that will be used for this purpose!  If this city didn't appear to be a threat to their species' survival, do you think their reaction would have been as intense? 

Illyria

Here we go again.

Let’s try to explain this with a simple metaphor:
 
Imagine that I constantly have thieves break into my house. They just simply pick the locks on the front door, and waltz right in. Eventually, after this has happened a few times, I get worried about it happening again. Thus I decide to move houses to a different neighbourhood, hopefully one were there is less risk of being burgled. Then, to be extra safe, I buy some more locks for my new door. Heavy duty ones, a variety, some with deadbolts, some with... Well, I'm no lock expert. Anyway, my door's covered with locks. It’s practically impossible for a thief to get in. Seems fair enough... Right?

Well, unfortunately not according to your logic. Apparently the thief should be so worried about the fact that I've moved further away from him and made my home more secure, that he has to try to break into my house again, and kill me as well, just in case someone else wants to move to a safer area and make their home more secure.

you need to convince the Machines, not me, that this new city is not a threat to their race.

Presumably then I don't need to convince you because you are already convinced then? Seeing as you have conviction in my argument, perhaps you would act as an intermediary for us to the machines? You know, you could try to convince Gray/Pace/The Architect/Whoever that New Zion isn't a threat to the machine race?

I'm certain I'll see that you brought the matter to their attention at the next machine meeting.

Many thanks.

Presumably then I don't need to convince you because you are already convinced then? Seeing as you have conviction in my argument, perhaps you would act as an intermediary for us to the machines? You know, you could try to convince Gray/Pace/The Architect/Whoever that New Zion isn't a threat to the machine race?

If I believed that, I would have already tried.  But I don't.  My personal belief is that there are going to be acts of sabotage against the Machines and the Matrix coming from New Zion.

When I said you didn't need to convince me, it was because I have no power over what the Machines may try to do to you.  And I said a while ago that I'm not going to go begging and pleading to the Machines not to destroy your cities.  Zion did something they knew would cause this reaction in the Machines, now Zion has to take responsibility for what it did.  Nobody is going to clean up their mess for them. 

You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Illyria

TheMagus wrote:

Presumably then I don't need to convince you because you are already convinced then? Seeing as you have conviction in my argument, perhaps you would act as an intermediary for us to the machines? You know, you could try to convince Gray/Pace/The Architect/Whoever that New Zion isn't a threat to the machine race?

If I believed that, I would have already tried.  But I don't.  My personal belief is that there are going to be acts of sabotage against the Machines and the Matrix coming from New Zion.

When I said you didn't need to convince me, it was because I have no power over what the Machines may try to do to you.  And I said a while ago that I'm not going to go begging and pleading to the Machines not to destroy your cities.  Zion did something they knew would cause this reaction in the Machines, now Zion has to take responsibility for what it did.  Nobody is going to clean up their mess for them. 

You've made your bed, now lie in it.

Illyria

Well then, it looks like any attempt to give you perspective for a different argument is pointless.

In the end, it all comes down to belief. I believe, with every fibre of my being that we will survive this, that we will win this war. I believe it with a strength that I wouldn't expect a machine or one of their followers to understand. So instead, all you need to know is this:

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.

When I said you didn't need to convince me, it was because I have no power over what the Machines may try to do to you.  And I said a while ago that I'm not going to go begging and pleading to the Machines not to destroy your cities.  Zion did something they knew would cause this reaction in the Machines, now Zion has to take responsibility for what it did.  Nobody is going to clean up their mess for them.