[8.2.1] It should help us plan our strike on the lines - Recursion - 8/23/07

Croesus wrote:

And attacking 01 and the Machines is your idea of restoring the peace that he strived for?

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

No attacking 01 is our way of telling the Machine we arn't going to stand for their oppression and show them that we arn't about to bend over backwards for them again. This war isn't about destoying an entire race it is about the demanding the rights that humanity has been denied.

We never had peace so what is there to defend? We are here to create a peace and make sure it isn't as one sided as last time.

GamiSB wrote:

Croesus wrote:

And attacking 01 and the Machines is your idea of restoring the peace that he strived for?

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

No attacking 01 is our way of telling the Machine we arn't going to stand for their oppression and show them that we arn't about to bend over backwards for them again. This war isn't about destoying an entire race it is about the demanding the rights that humanity has been denied.

We never had peace so what is there to defend? We are here to create a peace and make sure it isn't as one sided as last time.

Can you not see that this course of action only proves to the Machines that Humankind only knows violence and destruction in order to get what they want...
This is one reason why Human's are being kept in the Pods, so the Machines can have a system of control until the day where Humankind can move beyond such primitive reactions...

And there retaliation only shows us that they are not interested in peace or kindness and only interested in control. Forgive me if I'm not a fan of facism but that is exactly what the world is, was, and will become under the governing of the Machine. This war ends when the Machines want to give humanity it's rights back and stops trying to control them.

Now let me ask you something

This was wrong...

...what makes this any better?

I should mention I supose that my purpose for asking such a question is to get you to see another example of when a surior being enslaved a lesser being because they viewed the lesser being as "primitive".

It also undoes all the work Machinists have done to try to prove otherwise, that we can cooperate and co-exist peacefully, something that Neo started when he fought for the Machines against a Virus that threatened life for both Man and Machine.

((just noticed the edit))

Co-existing is still a possibility, however, not every human is willing to have to work FOR the Machine to be able to do it. Neo didn't die so we could work FOR them, he died for us to work WITH them. There is a diffrence.

Croesus wrote:

It also undoes all the work Machinists have done to try to prove otherwise, that we can cooperate and co-exist peacefully, something that Neo started when he fought for the Machines against a Virus that threatened life for both Man and Machine.

((just noticed the edit))

Co-existing is still a possibility, however, not every human is willing to have to work FOR the Machine to be able to do it. Neo didn't die so we could work FOR them, he died for us to work WITH them. There is a diffrence.

Your first image shows Humanity at its worst. Physical violence to the slaves who know that they are slaves with no hope that their life will ever get better and no control over their own lives.

You second image shows Humanity living in a massive neural simulation, where they can live out their lives as their ancestors did in 1999. Any suffering that goes on is purely the work of their own simulated lives, their own actions allow them to be successful and live a happy life, or crash and burn.

Are you saying that all of Humanity is suffering physical pain and torture to get them to work to produce energy for the Machines ask any Bluepill on the street if that is the case with them, only the 1% may not think you are out of you mind and then again, that's not a guarantee.

I am saying that slavery is slavery no matter how fine the liveing quarters are. Slaves were not all beaten but they were still slaves and tought to think that there was no life outside there masters plantation. Clearly not the case as history soon showed. The later image is the same only more modern, slaves while maybe not being abused still being forced and tricked into working for there masters being told that there was no life outside the one they had and they were better off within it's walls.

But at the same time the Machine does do the same as the white man and will beat those who will not do as they are told. Maybe not physically but your a fool to think that the rulers of the digital world have no control over the lives within there systems and would not take some sort of measure (finaltial debt etc) to ensure that they became dependent and did not stray away from what the system wanted.

In fact the Machine has shown already that it is willing to punish any that won't do as they are told in the system and cause them to suffer. The Matrix to some may be a paradise but you ask those liveing in the Slums if they think so I doubt they will agree.

Croesus wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Croesus wrote:

It also undoes all the work Machinists have done to try to prove otherwise, that we can cooperate and co-exist peacefully, something that Neo started when he fought for the Machines against a Virus that threatened life for both Man and Machine.

((just noticed the edit))

Co-existing is still a possibility, however, not every human is willing to have to work FOR the Machine to be able to do it. Neo didn't die so we could work FOR them, he died for us to work WITH them. There is a diffrence.

((Lol, just noticed the added post))

Yes he died so that we could work with them, but that is not what you are doing...
There are Machinists than can be deemed as working for them this is true, blindly following orders and agreeing with every decision, but there are many who would question some of their extreme decisions and try to point out the Human view and our feelings and offer alternate suggestions...

((decided to merge the two so we stop double posting =P))

All the power to them and I hope more follow suit. But Zion is at war because of that very reason. The Machine makes demands of Zion and does not allow them the right to say no or to find another solution.

null

I am saying that slavery is slavery no matter how fine the liveing quarters are. Slaves were not all beaten but they were still slaves and tought to think that there was no life outside there masters plantation. Clearly not the case as history soon showed. The later image is the same only more modern, slaves while maybe not being abused still being forced and tricked into working for there masters being told that there was no life outside the one they had and they were better off within it's walls.

But at the same time the Machine does do the same as the white man and will beat those who will not do as they are told. Maybe not physically but your a fool to think that the rulers of the digital world have no control over the lives within there systems and would not take some sort of measure (finaltial debt etc) to ensure that they became dependent and did not stray away from what the system wanted.

In fact the Machine has shown already that it is willing to punish any that won't do as they are told in the system and cause them to suffer. The Matrix to some may be a paradise but you ask those liveing in the Slums if they think so I doubt they will agree.

((decided to merge the two so we stop double posting =P))

All the power to them and I hope more follow suit. But Zion is at war because of that very reason. The Machine makes demands of Zion and does not allow them the right to say no or to find another solution.

"One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means."

• Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968 )

The only way Humankind will be able to leave the 'plantation' is if one or a few of them stand up and fight for it, but not with violence, but with words and diplomacy.

"One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal that we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means."

• Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968 )

But something must be done when the slave master doesn't want to hear words of freedom. Even going back to the Hebrews when they were held in Egypt, the Pharaoh only let the people go when he wasn't able to keep control of them. I'm all for peace like the reverend said, but when our freedom is viewed as hostility, the Machine won't allow us to have it unless they can no longer keep it from us.

- Ezechiel

"You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom."
    - Malcolm X (1925 - 1965)

Interestingly, there is no archaeological evidence for the release of a mass group of slaves anywhere in Egyptian history.  The only mass 'exodus' recorded was when the native Egyptians drove out the Hyksos -- the 'chiefs of foreign lands' who'd taken control of the country after the Middle Kingdom.  Eventually the native people rose up and drove the foreigners out of Egypt.  It's still a story about people fighting their oppressors, though, so I suppose it can be used as analogy of the human/Machine situation too.

Illyria

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

This isn't just about slave masters and control. This is about Choice and Emotion, and the Machines' inability to comprehend and adapt to it.

Choice creates confusion in a Machine's mind, even those as advanced as those we face today. Choice can be irrational, illogical, and all thanks to human emotion.

Would mankind be better off in the pods, with the Machines acting as caretakers for the remainder of eternity. Perhaps. Who can say?

But we did not choose to be there. We were put there, against our will, fighting since day one against the lies the Machines have been trying to feed us. We struggle, body and mind, to be Free to choose our own fate.

We need a revolution. And, as my compatriots have said, there can be no Revolution without the first revolt.

Those who wish to be freed were given the right to do so without interference.    There was an opportunity to build upon the freedoms given to humanity but instead it was used to plan for warfare. 

There is a reason we are not "free" because despite how much we yearn and fight for it, we haven't earned it yet.

The part where someone decided we didn't have to earn our freedom.

Negotations can then occur so that a truce is reinstated.  Laying down their arms would be an action that clearly states that they mean no harm to the Machines.

Would it actually happen?  I'm not betting on it.  There's no trust between the two bodies.

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

I don't consider them heroes.  I consider them soldiers.

Illyria

I don't consider them heroes.  I consider them soldiers.

Illyria

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

Roukan, I expected better from someone who's been awakened for as long as you have.  The war started because B-166ER defended himself when his human master tried to end his life.  It resulted in riots that ultimately led to machines exiling themselves away from humanity where they tried to live out their own lives.  In man's envy, he lashed out at the machines even when the machines offered peace.

Since then the Machines have continually defended themselves to a point where they no longer trust the sincerity of mankind.  It is pointless to trust something that is deceptive, right?  Why trust something that will strike at you the moment it has the ability to do so?  Put the shoe on the OTHER foot.  Understand the reason why they act as they do.

It should be easy considering you don't trust them, so empathize why they don't trust you and neither do we.

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

I'm glad a machinist realizes and admits that this thing was a temporary situation all along. The Machine negotiated with a gun to our heads this whole time, and nothing permanent can come from that but death. Fortunately, it allowed Zion enough time to get out of the way before something else happened.

Pyraci wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

Roukan wrote:

Croesus wrote:

"Since wars begin in the minds of men, it is in the minds of men that the defenses of peace must be constructed."

• UNESCO Constitution (Pre-AI)
  

I don't think the machines would like you calling them men.

I need not tell you who began this war, if you are still unsure, watch the records from the Zion Mainframe entitled the second renaissance.

Humans started the original war due to the ignorance of one machine. Machines started this war due to the ignorance of one decision of a man.

If you are still unsure, maybe you should make sure you're not still asleep.

We are still in the original war, the truce was a temporary ceasefire agreed to by Zion and The Machines with a set of concessions... building the City was not a concession, it was a violation of the truce. Maybe you need to Wake Up.

I'm glad a machinist realizes and admits that this thing was a temporary situation all along. The Machine negotiated with a gun to our heads this whole time, and nothing permanent can come from that but death. Fortunately, it allowed Zion enough time to get out of the way before something else happened.

Had Zion not violated the truce, we would still be in one with a possibility of something more stable. The Machines may have been holding the right cards and their cooperation with Neo benefited both parties, but they agreed to and stuck with the Truce never violating it straight out. The same could be said for both sides up until Zion's decision to build a new city.
If the Machines seriously wanted to restart the cycle by destroying Zion once more, they could have done so at the earliest infraction by Zion.

"Had the girl not been wearing a short skirt and low-cut top, her assailant wouldn't have done such horrible things to her."

Sounds like you're the one who needs to wake up.  The Truce needed to go.  It was bought and paid for with Neo's blood for the purpose of peace, I'll give you that, but what good does it do a bunch of people who have no interest or desire for peace?  No... let's not use the Truce to negotiate something more structured, solid, and helpful for everyone...  let's create Cypherites to control extractions without us, ourselves, "breaking" the Truce, right?

Keep in mind the order of appearance, sugar.  If the Machines hadn't overwritten Cryptos and organized the Cypherites to do their dirty work, EPN would've never been forced to show up on scene, either.

Don't talk about who violated the Truce when your side's as guilty of it as anyone.  It's done.  It's long gone.  Now help them do their job and kill the people who want to be awoken before Zion or EPN gets the chance to get them out...  help them get access to Zion so the rest of free humanity (like yourself) can be killed, including men, women, and children.

Maybe when they're done with all of that, they'll give you a reward or a medal or something...   but I seriously doubt it.

There was nothing wrong with the Truce.  The problem lies in that NO ONE did anything to further Neo's work.  Therefore the fragile peace it offered was not going to last.  Zion spent that time constructing a new city to defend themselves against the Machines.  The Machines spent that time focusing on whether or not Zion was up to something.  Had either side's paranoia not controlled them, then perhaps, by now, we'd have something better than what we had.

The point that I'm trying to make is that although both sides wanted peace we did NOTHING to protect it.

We are all guilty.

The Machines only provided a leader to an already existing, unchecked organization.  It was their attempt at controlling the organization.  To be entirely honest, had they not placed Cryptos in his position, Veil would be running the show and we all know how that twit likes to operate. 

As I said, we're all guilty.  We wasted the time we were given and did nothing to improve the future.  That goes for both sides of the fence.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

"Form a group" is the key phrase. Cryptos was not placed in an already existing organization but was sent to create one.

I've already said that I agree with you that we all are guilty of the truce breaking but even so that doesn't make the truce perfect which was the orginal argument was about.

I didn't say it was perfect.  I merely said there was nothing wrong with it.  It was a bridge to something better.  It's a shame it was wasted.

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg. The lack of any kind of enforcement should the Machines not live up to their side of the bargain along with such an open ended interpritation of the truce are all major problems that in no way could it have ever been possible to use such an agreement as a foundation for peace.

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg.

The truce was never meant to make both sides equal. 

Illyria

GamiSB wrote:

But there was plently wrong with it. Loop holes and uneven power between the two cities are only the tip of the iceberg.

The truce was never meant to make both sides equal. 

Illyria

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce. There continueal attacks on Zion REP's and bluepills that wanted the red pill are proof. Yet that blantent violations just get pushed under the rug when they are uncoverd. Now exactly how is that a fair deal and going to bring about peace? You preach about what happend when man saw themselves as suprior beings to the Machines and how it was wrong and evil, so how is the Machine doing the exact same thing to us humans and diffrent?

Peace will only come between Zion and 01 when each sees the other has its equal.

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

There is a difference between the 1% that are awakening on their own and those who are not ready to be awakened, those who are forcibly awakened, and those who are deliberately shown things that cause them to awaken.  Extracting anyone other than the 1% that were awakening on their own was not permitted by the truce.  But because you can't tell Zion anything without them stubbornly doing the exact opposite (for example, "don't awaken people who aren't ready to be awakened", or "give the Machines the stolen cheat codes back", or "don't use the stolen cheat codes, they're dangerous" ), the Cypherite organization was formed in secret. 

Illyria

EDIT:  The Machines don't look at Zion as an equal because Zion is no match for them militarily, the Machines' population and resources far outweigh Zion's, and Zion was created by the Machines as part of the cycle of the One and the Matrix. 

And when did the Machines attack Zion REP points or bluepills before the truce ended? 

Bluepills killed by Cypherites under the control of Machines  = Bluepills killed by Machines.

The truce was the result of bureaucratic negotiations after Neo's sacrifice for Peace. It was flawed because it was made grudgingly and callously.

The Machines have no desire to co-exist with humans. Therefore, we will continue to fight these Machines until they realize what humans have, through centuries of conflict and agression, long understood: there is no way to 'win' a war. Both sides lose.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

And what would happen if Zion were to lay down its arms, drop its defenses, and say, "okay, you win. Now how about the next step?"

Then negotiations could begin.

Illyria

Bluepills killed by Cypherites under the control of Machines  = Bluepills killed by Machines.

The truce was the result of bureaucratic negotiations after Neo's sacrifice for Peace. It was flawed because it was made grudgingly and callously.

The Machines have no desire to co-exist with humans. Therefore, we will continue to fight these Machines until they realize what humans have, through centuries of conflict and agression, long understood: there is no way to 'win' a war. Both sides lose.

So you continue to fight against the machines to prove that continued fighting results in nothing but losses for both sides?  Sounds like your biting off your face to spite your nose, imo.

Also, PLEASE keep in mind that the Machines do not have full control over the Cypherites despite whatever you all may believe in you biased and loathing for them.  They are human and prone to doing what they want from time to time.  As much as the Machines would like to control them, they can't. 

Why do they continue to employ their services?  Beats me.

Negotiations? Even if Zion took the step and dearmed themselves, they would not be able to live happily ever after. They'd still have a million Sentinels in their back waiting to leash out at them at every waking moment. This is what neither you, nor the Machines can comprehend. While both sides have armament, both sides will fear each other. If one side lay's down it's weapons, they will succumb to the fear of being annihilated. This fear is what led the New Zion, this fear, although a completely logical consequence even the Machines should understand or at least should have known about, is what leads to the breaking of the truce.

The Machines are ruled by logic. It's nothing else than ... a regime of terror.

-Dedatorus

GoDGiVeR wrote:

Negotiations? Even if Zion took the step and dearmed themselves, they would not be able to live happily ever after. They'd still have a million Sentinels in their back waiting to leash out at them at every waking moment. This is what neither you, nor the Machines can comprehend. While both sides have armament, both sides will fear each other. If one side lay's down it's weapons, they will succumb to the fear of being annihilated. This fear is what led the New Zion, this fear, although a completely logical consequence even the Machines should understand or at least should have known about, is what leads to the breaking of the truce.

The Machines are ruled by logic. It's nothing else than ... a regime of terror.

-Dedatorus

We won't know what happens unless you try.  Will we?  Someone has to take the first step after Neo's.

Zion did, and the Machines didn't like it.

Roukan wrote:

Zion did, and the Machines didn't like it.

They spent the last 2 years investing their resources in creating a new secret base.  That's not exactly what I meant. 

GamiSB wrote:

The Cypherite organization created by the Machines was a direct violation of Zion's right to free the 1% according to the terms of the truce.

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

There is a difference between the 1% that are awakening on their own and those who are not ready to be awakened, those who are forcibly awakened, and those who are deliberately shown things that cause them to awaken.  Extracting anyone other than the 1% that were awakening on their own was not permitted by the truce.  But because you can't tell Zion anything without them stubbornly doing the exact opposite (for example, "don't awaken people who aren't ready to be awakened", or "give the Machines the stolen cheat codes back", or "don't use the stolen cheat codes, they're dangerous" ), the Cypherite organization was formed in secret. 

Illyria

EDIT:  The Machines don't look at Zion as an equal because Zion is no match for them militarily, the Machines' population and resources far outweigh Zion's, and Zion was created by the Machines as part of the cycle of the One and the Matrix. 

And when did the Machines attack Zion REP points or bluepills before the truce ended? 

The Cypherite organization was on created long before the Cheat Codes were even unvealed so you can hardly say that Zion's unwillingness to give them back (which I'll remind you was so that they could eliminate the merv which was also the Machines prime target at the time) was a reason for there creations. I'm not foolish enough to think that there weren't any over zealous members of Zion that wanted to free everyone and if they were the targets for the Machines then that is understandable and is allowed by the terms of the truce. However those were not the ones I am speaking about nor are they the majority of the operations the Cypherites were sent to. Go back and review the Cypherite's operations in the Matrix and you find a trail of forceing blue pills to minds that wanted out and attacks on the Zionites sent to free them.

The two cities military might has nothing to do with seeing them as equals nor should it even be a factor if peace is really the objective. America in the 21st century with all its military might and technilogical advancements, did it not sit and work with smaller countries to help them or did it say "no you couldn't hold a candle to us so we wont respect your rights and just take over for you"?

And please dont even try to say that you wouldn't be crying a storm if Zion had ever attacked a Machine building or base to hinder a Machine operation. EJPs are nice but because we have them means we could kill anyone we wanted to? It's like shooting someone wearing a bullet proof vest and expecting not to get shot back.