[8.1.4] Mr. Manohar must be reconfigured - Recursion - 8/8/07

I must agree with Tytanya to a certain extent as well.  However we redpills still have choices to make.  You can leave the Machines behind to continue to try to regain their former method of control with the old endless cycle that prevents man, machine and program from evolving.  Or you can stay and play the sheep, following orders blindly.

Another alternative would be to continue working with them and try to set an example, one from which they may actually learn something positive from humanity.  It seems to me programs and machines are acting out only the negative things they have learned from their creator thus far.  I wish I had been there to stop the death of this human.  This so called excuse for war is paper thin if you ask me.  Zion moved, can anyone blame them?  The machines still have all their defenses in place and with the threat of the General and his Commando Sentinels in the real hovering over Zion, moving makes perfect sense.  The machines concidered this a threat.  I'm sorry I don't see it.  Zion moved further away from 01.  How is this a threat?

(I'd also like to point out that the story is involving more and more events that happen in the real, fully removing subscribers from the continuing story.)

The Daemon Contingency will be there, ever vigilant, stemming the loss of life and trying to set an example for all.  The things you are fighting for are pointless when you really think about it operatives.

Shinryu wrote:
((Agreed, I can only hope there is a dark sinister part of the story behind all of this to explain why killing him was the only course of action available, because I would not be happy if it was just a way to utilise the RSI pills as part of an LE))

((Latest Machine Crit anyone?))

odj wrote:

Shinryu wrote:
((Agreed, I can only hope there is a dark sinister part of the story behind all of this to explain why killing him was the only course of action available, because I would not be happy if it was just a way to utilise the RSI pills as part of an LE))

((Latest Machine Crit anyone?))

(( The latest critical mission notwithstanding, there was no reason that we can see for actually killing the original Bluepill. He was replaced by another Bluepill or RSI with a program. They could have achieved that by relocating Manohar, renaming him, detaining him or anything along those lines. ))

So ....actually killing bluepills now...come on now...Protecting our race? You machinists need to learn from the machines. They cannot be trusted and just as the ended this inocent bluepills life so they will one day yours.

We were there, and we know what happened.

If "Navin Manohar" hasn't already been terminated, he will be shortly. If he was extracted, whoever did it ought to be shot after all of the communication we put out about this attrocity, or, at least, they won't be running extractions again very soon.

((Seriously... operations get compromised...  You can't just ignore the bulk of Zion and pretend we weren't there. We don't forget.))

We were there, and we know what happened.

If "Navin Manohar" hasn't already been terminated, he will be shortly. If he was extracted, whoever did it ought to be shot after all of the communication we put out about this attrocity, or, at least, they won't be running extractions again very soon.

((Seriously... operations get compromised...  You can't just ignore the bulk of Zion and pretend we weren't there. We don't forget.))

Barbaric... truely barbaric.

First of all, let me state my stance on this. I may not agree with the killing of the bluepill and I do wish there had been a way around it. However I can see the reasoning behind it and am safe in the thought that the machines had calculated this as the most efficient and safe way to go about things.

[ Osterlind ]

First of all, let me state my stance on this. I may not agree with the killing of the bluepill and I do wish there had been a way around it. However I can see the reasoning behind it and am safe in the thought that the machines had calculated this as the most efficient and safe way to go about things.

Secondly, for those who are complaining about the route taken:

Yes he was killed, yes he was overwritten and yes the program was used to gain information about Zion. Look at the last point, ultimately good; I'm sure you'll agree. "Then why couldn't we have done that using a decoy bluepill or something?" I hear you ask, quite simple really, why bother? Why bother when there is a bluepill they already want to recruit and think he's as normal as any other? Then why did we have to kill him, one might ponder, yes unfortunately we had to kill the bluepill in order for this to be possible and yes we did have to partially overwrite him. However the machines had calculated this to be the safest possible course of action in order to be sure the program would remain undetected.

Hopefully that will clear some minds... Or make some, more inquisitive; time will tell.

[ Osterlind ]

"What about his bluepill family and friends?"

"How could you do such things?"

What? What happens when you recruit each bluepill on this extraction spree of yours? They leave their life just to end it in the Real following your battle-standards. Everytime a bluepill is extracted, their existance is erased from the Matrix. No one remebers who they are, nor do they care. It's why no one comes looking for you even after you've been extracted. You only remebered the life you lived, nothing more.

As for killing this bluepill?

Pfft, don't be weak.

This is a war, if it wasn't for Zion starting this whole ideal in the first place, maybe the chain reaction leading to this bluepill's death would have taken a different turn? It's truthfully Zion's fault for the Machines having to result to such drastic events.

But in my own eyes? To quote a famous war tactition...

"One death is a tradgedy, a million deaths is a statistic."

This bluepill's death is only a statistic that will help the Machines win the war. No one likes a copper-top dieing, but if Zion didn't run off into their own little hole-in-the-ground, maybe this could have been avoided.

What? What happens when you recruit each bluepill on this extraction spree of yours? They leave their life just to end it in the Real following your battle-standards. Everytime a bluepill is extracted, their existance is erased from the Matrix. No one remebers who they are, nor do they care. It's why no one comes looking for you even after you've been extracted. You only remebered the life you lived, nothing more.

Ballak wrote:

What? What happens when you recruit each bluepill on this extraction spree of yours? They leave their life just to end it in the Real following your battle-standards. Everytime a bluepill is extracted, their existance is erased from the Matrix. No one remebers who they are, nor do they care. It's why no one comes looking for you even after you've been extracted. You only remebered the life you lived, nothing more.

Not true, unfortunately. (( There's a critical where a Bluepill tells us about one of their friends, who was extracted. They don't know what happened to them, of course, but they remember them existing. ))

"Never send a human to do a Machine's job"

 I never realized how much I hated that line...

No, it WAS necessary.  Zion and EPN refuse to stop awakening bluepills.  If we have to kill one to give them pause, then so be it.  His death was a means to a reaction.

This is the real world, folks.  This is also war.  All this idealistic banter does nothing.  You can't save everyone, so you save as many as you can.  Majority rules, eh?

Garu wrote:

No, it WAS necessary.  Zion and EPN refuse to stop awakening bluepills.  If we have to kill one to give them pause, then so be it.  His death was a means to a reaction.

This is the real world, folks.  This is also war.  All this idealistic banter does nothing.  You can't save everyone, so you save as many as you can.  Majority rules, eh?

It's people like you that perpetuate the myth that Machinists are somehow less human because of it.  You're a redpill, too, right?  How'd you have liked it if someone showed up and killed you before you made the choice for the sheer fact that you were being offered a chance to take the red, huh? As far as you knew, you were doing nothing wrong.  You'd have never known you'd be serving "a greater good" by it either.

It's people like you that perpetuate the myth that Machinists are somehow less human because of it.  You're a redpill, too, right?  How'd you have liked it if someone showed up and killed you before you made the choice for the sheer fact that you were being offered a chance to take the red, huh? As far as you knew, you were doing nothing wrong.  You'd have never known you'd be serving "a greater good" by it either.

First, you have absolutely no knowledge of my past and the circumstances that led to my awakening.  Don't presume you know anything about me.  I've been working with the Machines for nearly 3 years now.  I am commited to this organization and accept the bad with the good.  If you want to hold hands and bear the flag or our organization when it suits you, fine.  In the meantime, there's a job to be done.

There's the rub.  Every one of you Machinists that thinks this was a good operation needs to take a minute and think.  You were ALL potentials once.  What if the system had decided that your death would have served the greater good before you were even offered the choice between red and blue?

It was not his fault that he questioned his reality - we all did.  The poor man may have even chosen the blue, but we'll never know that now, thanks to you.

Before you continue blindly following orders, consider the real greater good.  You may think you work with the Machines, but this proves yet again that your only options are get in line or get dead.

There's a line between following orders blindly and follow orders because you trust who they are coming from.  It's easy to take the morale high-ground and cross your arms and tell someone how much they just messed up.  But it takes conviction to go against a belief to do something you know in the end will benefit.

We killed Mr Manohar out of necessity, not because we were bored.  There's a method to the madness.

Machinists: Claiming the moral high ground and 'protecting the innocents' since 1999.

Seriously, what were people expecting?  Anyone with half a brain knows the Machines couldn't care less about a human life. 

Or is it just a case that if the Machines kill a bluepill it's ok, but if Zion or EPN ever killed one it'd be a cold heartless murder.

GGmachinists.

While I may not agree with the tactics that were taken, I feel based on what I've read and noted that a few points are being ignored. Mainly, and I could be mistaken I wasn't there the entire time, but wasn't this a bluepill that was on the list to be recruited by Zion? After all, that's how the Agents got the name, right? How does that make him an 'innocent bluepill'. If anything, Zion opened the door for him to become a red pill with plans on pursuing it, and the fact that they weren't prepared to protect him in regards to the situation doesn't mean that they can just claim ignorance. Yes, a life was taken, but if Zion is going to stand around and complain about a tactic that they should have been ready for, since the Machine intelligence has dictated that no more awakenings will be allowed, then maybe they should stop contacting people in attempts to recruit them. You can only claim ignorance once after all, and Zion opened the door. Agent Pace simply closed it before the awakening could be carried out. That is, assuming he didn't take the blue pill. But in all honesty, when a calculating machine program tells you no more awakenings, be prepared for the consequences when you decide to go against it.

Perhaps. But Zion can't shun their responsibility in the situation either. If they can't protect him, they shouldn't have put him on a list and planned to attempt extraction. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are to blame. One opened the door, the other closed it.

Perhaps. But Zion can't shun their responsibility in the situation either. If they can't protect him, they shouldn't have put him on a list and planned to attempt extraction. As far as I'm concerned, both sides are to blame. One opened the door, the other closed it.

We made them we can do whatever we want to them

GG

Relox wrote:

We made them we can do whatever we want to them

GG

You, didn't make a *CENSORED* thing. You have no authority over the blue pills. You are not a Machine. You are a Machinist. There is a clear difference, learn it.

Machines not only started this war, they created it. If Pace wants to end this war, all the Machiees have to do is stop trying to destroy Zion. There is no threat to the Machines from Zion, never has been.

NightTrace wrote:

Zion told the Mechs no to accessing their Mainframes, the Machines will do it anyway, "tee hee".

When the Machines wanted access to the Zion mainframe, Niobe made an equitable offer of an equal exchnage of information and the Machines walked away from it. You should know better than to suggest otherwise NightTrace. I expect such ignorant comments to be made by the war lusting Collective, now the DoE joins the ranks of elite denial through lies too. All in the name of justifiying your own lust for war.

The Machines repeatedly violated the Truce from the day of it's inception. The Machines declared the truce broken for Zion removing itself from the threat of destruction by the Machines. The Machines continue to pursue a defensive Zion that poses no threat to them. Machinists only drive in serving the Machines is their lust for war.

Illyria22 wrote:

We're at war.  And in all wars, innocent people die.  There's no way around it, unfortunately.

Illyria

You worked so hard to prove how killing an agent was taking an innocent bluepill's life. Oh how you were mortified by the atrocity of it all. Now you murder a bluepill in cold blood and it's all just taken in stride as some unavoidalbe misfortune of a war you so eagerly embrace. You are truly lost and the one to be pitied, Illyria. There is no war. There is only Zion searching for peace and protecting the truth and its people from the Machine threat. There is only the Machines telling you to kill your own kind and you proving to the Machines how pitifully you will lust for such an opportunity.

Nothing has changed. Bluepills are merely an expendable resource to the Machines. War is the Machines' preference as a measure of control and control is all the Machines are concerned about. It's been a long time of Machinists wasting their breath trying to prove otherwise.

To serve the Machines is to be a traitor to humanity and peace for all. That's all there is for you.

Be a Machinist and know your place.

NightTrace wrote:

Zion told the Mechs no to accessing their Mainframes, the Machines will do it anyway, "tee hee".

When the Machines wanted access to the Zion mainframe, Niobe made an equitable offer of an equal exchnage of information and the Machines walked away from it. You should know better than to suggest otherwise NightTrace.

To serve the Machines is to be a traitor to humanity and peace for all. That's all there is for you.

Be a Machinist and know your place.

Your opinion means nothing to me.  Because it's people like you, with your fanaticism and prejudice and hatred, that started the original war against the Machines centuries ago.  So go ahead and call me names -- your negativity towards me only shows me I'm doing something right.

Illyria

Machines not only started this war, they created it. If Pace wants to end this war, all the Machiees have to do is stop trying to destroy Zion. There is no threat to the Machines from Zion, never has been.

There is only one way to take this - all of those who claim they fight for humanity while siding with the machines in any accord at all not only have blood on their hands, but are taking a stance against humanity.

Sacrificing bluepills to kill redpills. I'll never claim the innocence or reds, but the blues innocence here is undeniable and in that regard, the murder of bluepills to strike zion is unjustifiable.

~Darminian

r3spon5e wrote:

To serve the Machines is to be a traitor to humanity and peace for all. That's all there is for you.

Be a Machinist and know your place.

Your opinion means nothing to me.  Because it's people like you, with your fanaticism and prejudice and hatred, that started the original war against the Machines centuries ago.  So go ahead and call me names -- your negativity towards me only shows me I'm doing something right.

Illyria

There is a real sinister reason an Agent didn't take care of this themselves, and thats because they're testing their operatives. They want to see how far their operatives are willing to go, what lines they are willing to cross and by doing this they have set the bar for future actions.

Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

Illyria22 wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

To serve the Machines is to be a traitor to humanity and peace for all. That's all there is for you.

Be a Machinist and know your place.

Your opinion means nothing to me.  Because it's people like you, with your fanaticism and prejudice and hatred, that started the original war against the Machines centuries ago.  So go ahead and call me names -- your negativity towards me only shows me I'm doing something right.

Illyria

Indeed.  The blue was sacrificed so as to prevent more deaths - to end the war more swiftly.  It's an act I disagree with, but understand the reasoning behind. Once the war is over, more blues will be safe - to achieve that goal more swiftly, two bluepills were sacrificed.  I can understand their reasoning - one has to remember that their concepts of right and wrong are far different than our own - something I hope to one day teach them. So long as the Machines exist, Humanity will exist.  And through peacefull cooperation with the Machines, peace will be restored, and all of both our species shall be safe.

Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

GamiSB wrote:

Not all of us are so passive as to allow the continual exploitation of our brother and sisters ignorance go unchallenged. Slavery is still slavery no matter how nicely you dress up the sleeping quarters.

Sounds just like another situation in Humankind's past, shortly after the creation of AI.
Yet even through all of the similarities of the situations, you just can't seem to see it from the Machines point of view.

At least the Bluepills are unaware of the true ugliness of the world that their ancestors helped create, the Machines were all too aware of their own slavery at the hands of Humans...

Would you have prefered humanity be obliterated in it's ignorance at trying to destroy the Machine AI? Humanity got what it deserved, in the past mind you, and the only reason humanity is still alive is because the Machine programs found a use for humanity, partly because they needed a power source, even after humanity scarred and destroyed a majority of the earth, even the sky. I'm not going to even bother arguing the value of human life, or call bluepills slaves when in all honesty where would they even go if they were freed, if anything the Machine's have created a place that they can be housed rather effectively. Quite frankly I think that all sentient life, both machine and human, should be valued greatly. I'm simply going to say that humanity made itself a slave to it's own creation when it tried to attack it out of prejudice, and lost. Of course this was in the past, and all very much a valuable history lesson that should be common knowledge by now with all the historical archives available to us (The Animatrix). But here's a thought. If in all honesty Zion in it's recruitment is solely concerned with helping bluepills that become enlightened discover the truth, then why stop at awakening for Zion. Why not recruit a few for the Machine's and the Merovingian while they are at it?

I would prefer humanity to have been left to its own once its militaries were wiped out. Mankind has found ways to survive in the harshest conditions and the building of New and Old Zion is proof that it would not have been impossible.

The Machines have had six version of the Matrix, an estimated six hundred years, plus the time between the Matrix and the aftermath of the start of the war to pay humanity back for a few years of persecution that proved to be a greater blow to humanity then the Machines. The eye has long sense been plucked out and paid back. I believe humanity deserves its change.

As to why Zion only recruits for its self, simple they aren't even suppose to be doing that. Humanity is no longer allowed freedom should it want it and is nothing short of a plantation worker devoid of education so that they may never know there full potential and the possibility of another life where should they even think about it or attempt to find it they are lynched by there metallic suppressors.

Who said anything about sticking them in one city? Who said anything about wanting all 6 billion of them free and all at the same time? Honestly let's think for a moment.

First it isn't rocket science to figure that both Zion's do nott have enough room. So what do you do? Make more. We have two fully functioning cities now so who's to say more can't come hm?

Second not everyone wants out, a concern that Zion has always made sure to be aware of which is why we have the pills to help prove that the person they have really wants out.

Third, mass anything would be a major strain on any system be it the Matrix or the way to get them all out. If things had kept going under the truce yes I'm sure Zion and New Zion would eventually have filled up but the time it took to do so could be spent building more cities and with the Machines helping probably take even less time then that.

As for the sun, I once again point you at Zion and New Zion. They are doing just fine without the bright ball in the sky helping them along.

Lastly I wouldn't hold stead fast to the idea that humanity is their primary source of power and that a second source has not been found. You may wish to seek out a few Merv contacts to learn more on that.