[7.2.5] I want to go back. I have to. - Vector - 5/22/07

Ahaha... And to think, you could even make a case for Smith himself having invented it.

"I have dreamed a dream, and now that dream has gone from me."

Hahaha!

You've caught up with me, Morpheus, or I've caught up with you. And where do I go from here, old friend?

Not your way. No...not that.

((Wait  a sec...isn't there a mission at the beginning for the Machines that has you take a Red Pill to some Agents to be re-inserted?  *confused*))

((Well sheeeee it, if that's true my character ought not be alive.))

((Wait  a sec...isn't there a mission at the beginning for the Machines that has you take a Red Pill to some Agents to be re-inserted?  *confused*))

I... What?!

No... This...             Goddammit!

I... What?!

No... This...             Goddammit!

What is it the kids are saying these days?

Ah, that's right...

"Pwnt."

What we have been doing this entire time has been convincing potentials to take the bluepill. There has never actually been a reinsertion done.  Cypher was tricked and we just have to move on and either forget about ever being reinserted or figure out another way.  Either way, our objective remains the same: to protect bluepills and convince them not to take the redpill.  Our personal objectives on the other hand... 

This at least clarifies some uncertainties and lets us focus on future tasks.

Take it all in stride, Cypherites.

~ XIV ~

Fatmop wrote:

((I would like to reiterate with a high degree of emphasis what a load of crap this is.  There's no explanation that will save my character.  None.))

(( If it comes down to it (and I doubt it will), your story can remain apart from the canon. We've got a lot of creative flexibility, and sometimes we've got to break some continuity rules. But only if we really, really need to.

Have faith, man! For all we know, Gray wasn't even telling the truth. There are always explanations. There's a way of getting around this, even if he was being truthful. ))

GypsyJuggler wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

Bear with me - this is one hell of a theory.

Here's what I'm thinking... Maybe it's technically impossible to erase the memory of an individual, but the Machines pretend that there is. As such, when operatives come to them seeking reinsertion, they do what needs to be done, and overwrite that individual with a program. They don't know the process, and they won't know any better once they're overwritten.

The individuals have "a new life" and the Machines have some new eyes in the Matrix... And in the Real.

Maybe, just maybe, the common thread that tied most of the overwritten operatives we'd met with in the past was reinsertion. Remember, they all experienced "some event" and then started acting completely different. It's not that far-fetched is it? It would make perfect sense - the Machines are efficiently using the operatives who come to them seeking a new life. They give it to them, and make use of their new existance at the same time.

Now this is the point at which we realize why it is not possible for Cryptos to be "reinserted" - he was already overwritten, and in this situation, it would be unlikely that the same person could be overwritten twice. The programs would likely conflict within his RSI, as his natural self and his reprogrammed self already do, but, well, probably to more of an extent, causing a crash, interference, or other "inefficiencies".

I know it's just a theory but... Well, it's possible, and much more efficient than gutting redpills and tossing them on the killing floor.

Exactly.  I mentioned this earlier but you've fleshed out all the parts I didn't say   I'd advise everyone to go back and pay close attention to what Gray actually said, and what he didn't say.  Remember, they can be just as evasive about truth as any human. 

The sad truth here is that the whole 'Cryptos getting his mind overwritten' pretty much invalidates everything we know about the matrix. To suggest that machines are capable of overwiting the mind of someone who 'chose' to exit the matrix in the first place, gives them the exact capability to create a full permanent Matrix, no need for reboots, no need for any anomoly....we might be able to accept this is a one off but to suggest it can happen routinely pretty much means we should all pack our bags and go home

It already has happened multiple times. It is likely that it is still happening.

However, it is known that in order to receive "reinsertion" operatives had to flee to the Machines, and that Cryptos was likely captured by them in the Real before he was overwritten. So it would seem that the Machines can only reprogram operatives in the Real, if this theory rings true.

And yes, it is just a theory, but it links many unknowns in a possible solution. Better to have an idea of what may be happening, then to have nothing, and sit around staring at the sky simply waiting.

Procurator wrote:

Vaico wrote:

Gray himself said there is no such procedure for reinserting humans.

No, he didn't. He said: 'There's no such procedure.' He didn't say for whom, he didn't say under what circumstances.

All this nonsense is conjecture based on a single, ambiguous sentence. Stop. Making. Assumptions.

Do we need it quoted? Fine.

Cryptos: I want to be reinsurted.
Agent Gray: There is no such procedure.

This is as clear as it gets folks. There is no procedure to reinsurt! True we don't know what they do with the people that want to be and anything about that is an assumption and best left to yourself untill we know more but that doesn't change the fact that the Machine Controler just told everyone that there is no process for reinsurtion.

There is just to many questions that need answers.....

(( It's called reasoning. ))

OOC: I would have to question whether precedent can be cited from anything other than the Wachowski's 3 movies. I then see The Matrix Online as the next available source of reliable Matrix Canon.

My understanding was that even The Animatrix was an invitation by Andy and Larry, for artists to "pick up the ball and run with it". The Path of Neo is another example of how the brothers have been tolerant to deviation from their original concept (although they obviously explicitly recognise this deviation and provide their reasons for it within the game).

I see The Matrix Comic series in a very similar vein to both of the above. Consider some of the off-the-wall concepts discussed by these pieces of work: A prime example was mentioned earlier in this thread, "Goliath" by Neil Gaiman concerns an exceedingly large man who is awakened by the Machines to battle asteroid-hurling aliens who are attacking Earth. Now, I have deep respect for Gaiman but.....o.O

Similarly, there are concepts within The Animatrix which I raise an eyebrow to. But, I also recognise that "The Kid" and "Final Flight of The Osiris" are accepted Matrix Lore: The difference being that these examples were embraced by the Wachowskis and included within the films.

Now, don't get me wrong: The more bizarre stories are most interesting and worthwhile. I just see them as the artist's personal "spin" on the original.

I have to disagree with those who state that reinsertion is an establish fact of The Matrix universe. That said, I am by no means refuting that it could occur.

I think the difference is that whatever programming is now part of Cryptos prevents him from being reinserted.  There's no reason it cannot be possible and I don't imagine Rarebit doing something that would destroy everyone's RP.  Some very nice screenshots though, I get the feeling Veil is going to put Cryptos out of the picture. 

I agree...although I think Cryptos may put himself out of the picture first.  What Gray told Cryptos might have been a lie meant to push him into comitting suicide (since Cryptos is a liability to both the Cypherites and the Machines now).

Illyria

Plot hole detected: Sleepwalkers

(( The Sleepwalkers were not canon...

 And actually, this Event has been the first one in a VERY LONG TIME to have really captured the theme of the Matrix. Like no other, this event shows us some ties to Cypher, to the Agent mannerisms, and to betrayal/loyalty in a way that we've not seen in quite some time. Even though there's no players involved in it here, this is some prime execution and a brilliant turn for the better... Now we have new questions that will obviously be answered later... We have a mystery on our hands...

 Also, keep in mind that your RP is not canon. Adapt to these new developments. You can still be Cypherite. You just won't get plugged back in. Also, in theory, you wouldn't be able to do any of the Redpill feats if you were plugged back in. Unless you became self-aware, which would then -- of course -- purge you from the system the moment you wake up.

 The only continuity that this disturbs is the scene with the Runner waking up in the Animatrix and then finding himself back inside the simulation later. I never expected Smith to be telling the truth to Cypher when he promised him reinsertion. )

((Ah so its only makeing assumption to anyone but you. I see.))

GamiSB wrote:

((Ah so its only makeing assumption to anyone but you. I see.))

(( Oh, do I have to explain myself?

Look. At the start, a lot of people assumed that this revelation meant that supposedly reinserted people were killed. Little to no justification for this. Other people (including myself) assumed that it was a lie by Gray, part of a grander scheme. Neither side of that argument has anything substantial to back it up with, so it's essentially a couple of opposing assumptions.

Just now, however, we were arguing about whether Veil heard Gray or not. You assumed she wasn't there, and I assumed she was. The difference was that I backed up my assumption with the reasoning that her presence in the final screenshots was significant, which implies she knew exactly what was being discussed between Cryptos and Gray. If you, in turn, reason why she wasn't there, that's fine.

Basically, there are three steps that I can see:

1. Revelation/event
2. Assumption/idea
3. Reasoning/argument

Most of this thread has missed out the third stage. ))

((Okay, 

1. she is no where to be found in any of the screenshots till then end.
2. It takes awhile for Veil to even show herself after Gray had left
3. as I have already stated what good would pissing off the spies you just hired after they left you the first time for lying to them.

It's not logical, something that is the backbone of every Machine scheme.))

......

I've thought about it for quite sometime, but never fully believed there was no re-insertion.

Surely, if you can "program" information into a human brain(like when Trinity asked for Helicopter piloting skills), then the Machines are fully capable, just not willing.

I questioned why no one saw the ex-redpills wandering amongst the streets...

Why no one could ever fully explain the process...

I used to long for the chance. After time, I learned to cherish this system. The wonder it truly beholds.

I will continue to protect the bluepills, under the Cypherite name...The organization could go places fast now, as a whole, but the right choices and actions must be made.

Here's to the future......

Code wrote:

Plot hole detected: Sleepwalkers

(( The Sleepwalkers were not canon...

Zerotolerance wrote:

Code wrote:

Plot hole detected: Sleepwalkers

(( The Sleepwalkers were not canon...

(( Yes, they are. Well, they're an officially recognised piece of MxO canon at any rate, referenced in the archived critical missions that occured after the event (cant remember the number). It's the second anniversary that was left as a 'you decide', quite like how i view most of the comics. ))

cloudwolf wrote:

Zerotolerance wrote:

Code wrote:

Plot hole detected: Sleepwalkers

(( The Sleepwalkers were not canon...

(( Yes, they are. Well, they're an officially recognised piece of MxO canon at any rate, referenced in the archived critical missions that occured after the event (cant remember the number). It's the second anniversary that was left as a 'you decide', quite like how i view most of the comics. ))

((Weren't Sleepwalkers just bluepills gone wild? I thought that was the purpose of turning off the lights.....))

3. as I have already stated what good would pissing off the spies you just hired after they left you the first time for lying to them.

It's not logical, something that is the backbone of every Machine scheme.))

1. she is no where to be found in any of the screenshots till then end.
2. It takes awhile for Veil to even show herself after Gray had left
3. as I have already stated what good would pissing off the spies you just hired after they left you the first time for lying to them.

It's not logical, something that is the backbone of every Machine scheme.))

GamiSB wrote:

3. as I have already stated what good would pissing off the spies you just hired after they left you the first time for lying to them.

It's not logical, something that is the backbone of every Machine scheme.))

(( Oh, come on. This is where so many people go wrong. The Machines are logical, the Machines want efficiency. That does not mean they can't see more than ten minutes into the future! They can see logic further on, they can see efficiency increased as a result of a long term plan. They don't need things to be efficient right here and now, when they could do something that seems less efficient now but which could reap great rewards in the future.

They aren't stupid. They can make plans, long term plans.

Pissing off the Cypherites could just be one step. It could just be a side effect. We don't know! But we can't rule it out just because the Machines like efficiency.

I mean, what was the efficiency of hiring human operatives, h'mm? None. It wasn't. We're slow, we need food, we're emotional... all the things Machines just don't have time for. But in the long term we provide substantial results. They hire us because of what we can do in the grander scheme of things, not because they find us to be either logical or immediately efficient. ))

GamiSB wrote:

1. she is no where to be found in any of the screenshots till then end.
2. It takes awhile for Veil to even show herself after Gray had left
3. as I have already stated what good would pissing off the spies you just hired after they left you the first time for lying to them.

It's not logical, something that is the backbone of every Machine scheme.))

Veil is an MKT no?  They can be stealthed, can they not?

And go back and look at every Machine plan, every step is percise and always logical, and every step only increases there effiecny never decreases it. What your sudgesting contridicts the characteristics of the Machines.))

Now some people have hinted at a possible explanation for Gray's response, but I feel it has not gotten enough attention because a few peoples tendancy to agure the same points over and over and over.

So remembering that Gray was speaking to Cryptos, no matter that Cryptos posted this meeting or that Veil overheard. He said there was no such proceedure. My take on Gray's response is that there is no such proceedure to reinsert him. Meaning that over written programs may not be able to be reinserted or that the damage Seraph caused by removing the overwriting program makes it very difficult for the machines to reinsert, which quite likely costs more resources than the machines are willing to use. In the past, the machines have been willing to discard or delete tools that are no longer of benefit to them, this may be another example of this.    

That being said Gray's statement is vague enough to warrant further clarification.

GamiSB wrote:

And go back and look at every Machine plan, every step is percise and always logical, and every step only increases there effiecny never decreases it. What your sudgesting contridicts the characteristics of the Machines.))

(( Sorry, but that's just... plain wrong. Fact. How can you possibly say that every single step they make is, in itself, efficient? That's not true. They've made loads of inefficient steps, with the goal in mind of achieving greater efficiency in the long run. How many times do I have to say this? ))

That being said Gray's statement is vague enough to warrant further clarification.

(( 1. Creating an entire organisation. Inefficient (lots of resources used to keep it secret, recruit members and program a leader), but with the goal of keeping Redpill levels nominal (ergo keeping power levels efficient).

Wrong its more efficent for the Machines to create and organization to keep thre hired redpills in control

2. Hiring Redpills. Inefficient (hovercrafts need to be built, humans need to be fed), but with the goal of keeping human relations optimal and the Matrix in good running order.

Wrong, hireing redpills has doubled if not tripled there efficienty in handling problems within the Matrix.

3. Creating cheat codes. Dangerous, unecessary, but with the goal of... actually, I don't know what the point of the cheat codes was, so it couldn't've been that good.

Wrong the codes were very efficent for there intended purpose. It was there sides effects of the codes that created the problems but the codes themselves were very helpful.

4. This is the big one. Maintaining the Truce. The most inefficient thing the Machines have ever done, but something they've placed on a very high priority despite the vast array of problems it's caused over the past two or three years.

Again wrong, the truce keeping them alive as much as it is Zion. If one side dies all sides die as there is no One program in this version of the Matrix and the Smith virus that is still inside the Matrix.

Every single step taken by the Machines is calculated, but not for immediate efficiency. ))

Every step is calculated to make sure that it is the most effient way of reaching there objective. If the Machines want the Cypherites trust back lying to them is not the way to get it.))

(( 1. Creating an entire organisation. Inefficient (lots of resources used to keep it secret, recruit members and program a leader), but with the goal of keeping Redpill levels nominal (ergo keeping power levels efficient).

Wrong its more efficent for the Machines to create and organization to keep thre hired redpills in control

That's, uh, exactly what I meant. It is efficient - in the end!

2. Hiring Redpills. Inefficient (hovercrafts need to be built, humans need to be fed), but with the goal of keeping human relations optimal and the Matrix in good running order.

Wrong, hireing redpills has doubled if not tripled there efficienty in handling problems within the Matrix.

I know it is! That's exactly what I said! They hired Redpills for the sake of efficiency. But that efficiency was only apparent after the hiring. The hiring process itself was inefficient.

3. Creating cheat codes. Dangerous, unecessary, but with the goal of... actually, I don't know what the point of the cheat codes was, so it couldn't've been that good.

Wrong the codes were very efficent for there intended purpose. It was there sides effects of the codes that created the problems but the codes themselves were very helpful.

The codes were meant to be helpful, but making them (as in - and stay with me here - the process of making them) was inefficient. However, this is a moot point as they never got to use the codes anyway.

4. This is the big one. Maintaining the Truce. The most inefficient thing the Machines have ever done, but something they've placed on a very high priority despite the vast array of problems it's caused over the past two or three years.

Again wrong, the truce keeping them alive as much as it is Zion. If one side dies all sides die as there is no One program in this version of the Matrix and the Smith virus that is still inside the Matrix.

What the-...? Where did you get that from? All they need to do is restart the Matrix. They have/had Neo, ergo they have the prime program. They've got lots of Redpill to repopulate Zion. Or, if they don't fancy that, they can scrap the whole deal and start again, like they did the first time.

Every single step taken by the Machines is calculated, but not for immediate efficiency.