Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team

23 posts · 2007-04-25 20:07:29 to 2007-05-19 11:39:00

#36300224429 04/25/2007 20:07:29 Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
It looks like we may be able to restrict area effect heals and buffs to the mission team in the not too distant future (although please note that this has not yet been scheduled or implemented, much yet tested, and is at this point merely theoretical, and may not end up working out for all we know).

This would mean that when you used an ability like Group Repairs, it would only affect people on your mission team--not all friendlies within the vicinity, as it does now.

The two main reasons we consider this change important are:

1) Gives small groups an increased chance for survival against large groups, since under this scheme, the large groups could no longer keep themselves fully healed/buffed with just one healer/buffer.

2) Prevents most heal/buff spam at parties etc.


It should also require people to think a little more tactically in large-scale PVP, as teams will have to pay a little more attention to their collective ability loadouts. We think that this change would make for more balanced PVP and more fun in general, but, as we're far from perfect, we'd also like to hear your thoughts on the matter. The one thing I've thought of so far that I think would be a slight down-side is that simulacra/proxies would no longer receive area effect heals/buffs, since they're not actually on the mission team.

#36300224435 04/25/2007 20:14:33 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Nice to see something able to be changed :p

Yeah, the simulacrum thing could be annoying. I think this could help a ton with the area heal spam though. I don't like having to remove all the graphical effects just so I don't lag.
#36300224436 04/25/2007 20:15:00 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
I love you and the rest of the dev team. Thank you.
#36300224438 04/25/2007 20:16:23 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Zudrag wrote:
I love you and the rest of the dev team. Thank you.

#36300224443 04/25/2007 20:17:41 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Sounds like a reasonable change.  If I remember correctly pre cr 2.0 some heals and buffs had this restriction so it should be possible.
#36300224445 04/25/2007 20:18:10 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Hold off on the love until we actually manage to pull it off. ;)
#36300224448 04/25/2007 20:21:16 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
What about bribery? Will that speed things up?
#36300224449 04/25/2007 20:21:21 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Just knowing your actually looking into this a good thing.  So many balance issues like this come up and we never hear anything about it.
#36300224450 04/25/2007 20:21:40 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Yasamuu1 wrote:
Zudrag wrote:
I love you and the rest of the dev team. Thank you.


#36300224453 04/25/2007 20:26:37 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
...
#36300224454 04/25/2007 20:27:14 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
NightTrace wrote:
Yasamuu1 wrote:
Zudrag wrote:
I love you and the rest of the dev team. Thank you.



#36300224467 04/25/2007 20:37:37 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Bout *CENSORED* time, it will prove who can zerg and who pwns
JL10899sig
#36300224487 04/25/2007 21:02:11 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Great idea, please make it so.
#36300224522 04/25/2007 22:01:09 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Awesomeness, I foresee structured pvp teams in the near future...SMILEY
#36300224579 04/26/2007 00:06:15 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team

Finally! this should be a major kick in a Swingers for teh zerg! Just pray it works SMILEY
Still not sure about the sim business but its one orthe other XD

#36300228558 05/01/2007 18:54 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team

Im posting this on behalf of AnXiety because he no longer has his account active.

first of all I'd just like to say, kellner's remarks are his own, and they dont reflect upon my own personal thoughts and/or opinions.

The issue at heart of the matter is as is AOE heals are over powered. This is somthing I've been saying this since the begining of CR2. And while this is a step in the right direction in terms of trying to put balance to them, this is also a double edged sword, and it seems thus far no one is stoping to concider that the other side of that blade is sharp, and will cut you in the end.

Sure limiting AOE heals down to the team sounds good in theory, and it would work to a certain extent. The problem is like a few of you have said, is that this now gives us reason to have "balanced" or rather organized pvp teams. But what none of you are concidering is that this only encourages MORE area healers. Instead of having only 1-2 healers supporting a zerg, now you might be looking at 4+ healers. The benefit of having 2 healers in close proximity of each other is they keep each other alive. In any pvp battle, healers/buffers always get targeted first, and the side to lose their healers first is often the side to lose. I mean if you've ever been the only person to load up area heals for your side during pvp, you know how quickly everyone targets you first, and how fast you die unless there's another healer there giving you heals to keep you alive and vice versa. So now by saying that AOE heals are going to be limited down to team only, now you need 2 healers per team just so the 2 healers can keep each other alive. If this was pushed live as its been suggested, and I was the one calling the shots for my team/faction during pvp, and I made the call that we needed healers, I wouldnt be asking for one per team, I'd be saying 2 per team. So you'd have your 4 strikers, and 2 healers per team. The strikers would get the kills, and the healers would keep each other and everyone else alive. So when dealing with an organized force, your dealing now with a group of players encouraged to have at least 2 area healers per team just so their healers can keep each other alive. And the bigger the pvp becomes, the more teams, the more area healers you have.

Not to mention the other huge downside this is when you dont have full teams, your actually discouraging people from pvp'ing. So say you have your one organized team of 6 pvp'ers with your 2 healers in that team, and then another team of 2-3 stragglers with no healer, its not gonna take anyone very long to figure out who's on which team and who's recieving the heals and who's not, thus the players who arent getting the heals get targeted out first because they're the easy kills. And by doing that you elmininate 2-3 of their strikers with ease making it alot easier to defeat thier other team. So for alot of players, they'll probably get tired of being targeted first because they represent the "easy kill" and then stop fighting. Having any element of the game that demoralizes people from continuing to pvp isnt good for pvp, and by putting this in your giving people a tactile reason to pick off thoes who arent getting healed first.

I dont see how this will change anything except to put even more emphasis on having area healers, and having more healers per team. Thoes who zerg are still going to zerg, except now they'll probably have even more healers.

The correct way to stop the area healers is to increase the IS costs, and reduce the healing output of area healers. In CR1 trauma surgeons were balanced, both of the top teir heals costed alot of inner strength, and healed for less than either of the top teir physician heals. You could spam about 4-5 heals before running out of innter strength and having to wait for some to regen. From a logical prespective, it makes no sense that AOE heals should be stronger than a single targeted heal. AOE heals are overall more beneficial to group pvp (which is when heals matter the most), you shouldnt be able to sit there spamming heals that give a person back a huge chunk of health while costing minimal inner strength until your blue in the face. After a few AOE heals you should be out of inner strength, thus not being able to "spam" the heals.

And the other aspect of this change is, any changes to the balance of the game that greatly and primarily impact pvp only, should have their reasons derived from pvp origins, not a non pvp (or pve even) reason such as ability spam during parties and events. Yea its annoying that people do it, but if the event is monitored, a CSR/Dev can remove them from the event, and players who lag as a result of the ability spam can always simply turn all efects off if it bothers them that much. To change a balancing aspect of pvp because some people lag at parties and events due to the spam is well.... weak to say the least.

So in conclusion, to be in favor of this change, you also have to be in favor of the fact that this system if pushed live is only going to encourage even more healers. I mean if you dont like area healers now.... if this was to make it live... wait until you go up aginst 4+ healers in organized teams, it'll be even worse.

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#36300228610 05/01/2007 21:34 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
anx wanted me to copy and paste this

anxiety 7.62: what a weaksauce reply
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#36300232450 05/08/2007 04:43 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
I agree with area heals only affecting team members like Defelect Bullets and the other useless ab that adds VD.  However Restore Group 1.0 should not affect team members only as it is not under Team Patcher.  There should also be a way to include sims and mission NPCs to receive area heals also.  I beleive an increase in team size should also be considered when this takes effect.  I disagree with the idea of increasing the IS and lowering the health output for the lower level heals that get spammed.  I have a few alts and they need all the IS they can get.  Especially since it takes 40 IS to reactivate Evade Combat after their shield has been broken  I think lowering the health output is fine, but don't punish lower level patchers by increasing their IS cost.
On a side note, I agree with the post about single target heals should be more than area heals.  I've a Corpsman loadout with my alts to be able to defeat higher level NPCs because of it.  I think adding single target heals to affect ourself during IL could be a beneficial addition and also reduce aoe heal spams.
#36300232501 05/08/2007 06:30 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team

anxiety is making me post this-_-

here's the way it is. By limiting area heals down to team only, your giving people reason to have even more healers than what we currently have in pvp. The vast majority of the replies given here about zerging all go back to an unorganized zerg of random fighters. I have yet to see one of you give any ounce of concideration to what it will be like to go up aginst an organized pvp faction that has 12 of their own members online who are all using a voice communication program of some type to easily communicate back and forth to get their teams organized on the fly. This idea DOES encourage more healers. This idea isnt beneficial to pvp. It isnt beneficial in the aspect that with more healers, the less of a chance you'll stand if when trying to fight a force that has you out numbered. It isnt benefical in the aspect that while your able to pick off the people unlucky enough to not be able to get on the team with the healer, thoes getting picked off will soon say "***** this im out" which then diminishes the ammount of people there pvp'ing which isnt at all beneficial to pvp, espically if its one zerg vs. another zerg.

And the bottom line of all of it is that even if this change is pushed live, and area heals are restricted down to team only, it doesnt change the fact that area heals are still over powered...

I mean seriously, even if they're team only, healing everyone in the area every 6 seconds or so for 860hp out of interlock, and over 760hp in interlock is just ****ed. So now even with heals limited to team only, we still have a tree that the vast majority of people posting here think of as being over powered that people will expect further nerfs upon. So lets say eventually the heals are balanced, weather its higher IS costs, or reduced healing output, or prefferably both, now if you limit the heals to team only, the tree is truely ****. I mean when ya get right down to it, if the tree wasnt so horribly unbalanced in the first place, the idea of limiting heals down to team only would be completly about stoping ability spam during events, because for pvp purposes, people would ask "whats the point", why nerf something thats already balanced. So I guess if heals are to be limited to team only, and oneday if they ever are properly balanced, we might as well make the min char level for dedication lvl 99 and just remove the usability of the tree all together, because then it gets to be an issue of "whats the point?".

The effort of a single team in pvp is important, but its the overall effort of everyone supporting your side in pvp that matters and that counts, and that shoulnt get nerfed because of some silly roleplay party, or live event, where people cant figure out how to send in a ticket on someone causing zone disruption.

Also if this change should be pushed live, I think its only fair then that area hacks only be applied to the team members within range of the person you have targeted, because thats what trauma/force multiplier is supposed to counter with area sweeps/heals.

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#36300234659 05/11/2007 15:59 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
Avalod wrote:
While I do like how this is turning out. I do have one question. If and whenever this does go into the code, Someone I think Rarebit said it will block the healer type sim's or any sim for that matter to heal the party member's.

For instance as of now whenever I pop my heal sim it buffs and heals anyone in sight. even if ppl in the area dueling i need to either de-construct it or pull it away from the duel. The sim itself should really only be healing the player who constructed it and whomever is on a team with its support.

But i think ill wait and see and keep my thoughts and idea's on how to fix that to myself for right now. Id rather see more Player to Player interaction and not alot of Player to Non-Player Interaction. if any catch my drift



There are some people that only use the Coder tree.  It wouldn't be fair to not take into consideration on how heals affect sims and patch daemons healing/buffing team members.  I'm not a a programmer, but it does seem slightly difficult to write code to tell a patch daemon to only heal/buff team mates.  When a UM isn't on a team, it would seem that it would only affect the owner.  I don't get paid the big bucks to make games and other software so I'll leave that to the devs to figure out.
#36300237208 05/15/2007 09:49 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
IMNHO.....Its a bad idea and I do not like it....

I think many of the arguments presented for it are good arguments against it.
#36300239760 05/18/2007 10:22 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team
I can't stress how flawed this idea is.

1. We have a team size of 6. Now... couple this with #2
2. In PVP or any event members of a team are likely to be spread out, and not in close quarters of each other.
3. Keep in mind the people use area heals not just for PVP scenarios... think of the pandoras boxes... think of people who just want to help others but can't fit on the full team of 6.
4. Seriously think about how useful AOE heals are in real PVP. People spread out alot, and people usually go for the healer/rez guy.

Now... what are the benefits of implementing this?

1. No area heal spam at events
2. Going on a limb here... increased numbers of healers.
....

Am I missing some? I am seriously trying to think what good can come from this limitation?


We already have healing tactics being used in PVP and events now, and ways to counter them. It's not like it's going to be something new or difficult for enemies to deal with... if anything they will love it, easier to kill everyone. It puts MORE favor in the zerg's hands.


Ok... so if you are still not convinced by me... then at least implement the following first...

1. Increase team size to 12. Why 12? because usually a faction will end up with two full teams of people in PVP spread out over the place. Yes, I know this effects missions as well, but think about how often 12 people will want to run missions, except for low levels who will be doing that anyway.

2. Give people more of a reason to be a healer... sure you are putting in a cool item for them... but what motivation is there to BE a healer... Just to help people? Please... people are not that inspirational nowadays. Maybe some cheap XP... not much... I am thinking data miner type of XP here... if not less. Just ANYTHING to motivate more people to be medics. Yes, I know people will exploit this, but it makes them use medic now doesn't it?




#36300240531 05/19/2007 11:39 Re:Restricting area effect heals and buffs to the mission team

Some of the buffs under Team Patcher are already restricted to team members.  It would make since all of the area heals/buffs under Team Patcher affect only team members.  This should have been pointed out much earlier in the game so it doesn't seem like a reaction to area heals spamming at events and PvP. 

I agree with LiquidZ's idea of increasing team sizes to 12 to allow for more offense classes on teams.  If the team size isn't going to be increased, the heal/buff radius should be so they can reach team mates that aren't next to them.  I've been wanting larger team sizes since the introduction of PBs. 

 MrMatador