[7.1.5] I'd say we get along...very well - Vector - 4/16/07

Illyria22 wrote:

Neoteny wrote:

I've had enough of this.

Machines, Zion will not tolerate Cypherite cooperation. If you do not cease cooperative relations with the Cypherites in full, we will take retaliatory actions.

We're supposed to be allies bound by the Truce, but you go behind our backs and not only work with, but helped to establish the same group of people who have constantly murdered and hindered our operatives, not to mention the city itself? And here, I thought that after the Cryptos incident, you might have learned that this is not something that we will take lying down.

We will not stand for this.

The Machines could easily say the same thing to Zion for their *continuing* work with EPN.  (Shimeda's fiasco with the three bluepills that ended up killing one of them was an EPN/Zion operation, as evidenced by the Zion operatives' presence and participation.) 

What's that old saying...oh yes.  "What's good for the goose is good for the gander."

Illyria

The Council didn't tell them to go there, Niobe didn't tell them to go there, Ghost didn't tell them to go there, and the rest of the city and I sure as hell didn't tell them to go there. It was not a joint EPN/Zion affair in any way.

They chose to do it. And perhaps we will choose to distance ourselves from them.

The truth of the matter is, we have had numerous opportunities to work in conjunction with E Pluribus Neo, and we have shot down the majority of them (excluding, say, information on the General, or the Assassin, or god forbid - Cryptos and the Cypherites!)

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

I don't believe that the Machines aided the Cypherites other than giving them a "leader".  Like I've already mentioned, the Masked existed long before Cryptos and would have existed regardless of his presence.  Remember Geermaskered and Enmascardo (sp?)?  Hell, remember Cypher? 

Yes, by giving the Cypherites a leader, they nurtured them.  But what proof do you have that the machines did it to be malicious to Zion?  Are you going to blame the Machines for humans who made a choice to act violently despite Cryptos wishes?  I believe that the Machines inserted Cryptos so they pacify the the organization.  Did it work?  Not very well I guess.  But hey, nothing ever goes just right sometimes.

Skill wrote:

They'll do what they deem necessary to protect their **** system if it gets them all destroyed. With the advent of code bombs, one must ask, "do i really want to risk the lives of those I protect just so we can be friends with another group that would think nothing of killing those I am trying to protect, if it fit their purposes?"

You misunderstand us -- the group we are trying to protect are the bluepills. 

As I've said before, even if every redpill (including myself) is killed, as long as the Matrix and the six billion human beings connected to it survive, I will consider it a victory.  6 billion lives are worth more than a few hundred thousand.

Illyria

Neoteny wrote:

The truth of the matter is, Zion does not not support EPN, no matter your conspiracies. However, our supposed "allies", the Machines, were discovered not only aiding the Cypherites, but to helping bring them out of infancy and into a true blue organization?

And after we catch them, what do they do?

Admit it, and continue to do so.

Where's the regard for the Truce, the regard for Zion?

I don't believe that the Machines aided the Cypherites other than giving them a "leader".  Like I've already mentioned, the Masked existed long before Cryptos and would have existed regardless of his presence.  Remember Geermaskered and Enmascardo (sp?)?  Hell, remember Cypher?

I've made this point myself. The Cypherites existed before the Machines. It doesn't justify the fact that the Machines helped streamline the organization by instating an overwritten Crytpos.

Yes, by giving the Cypherites a leader, they nurtured them.  But what proof do you have that the machines did it to be malicious to Zion?  Are you going to blame the Machines for humans who made a choice to act violently despite Cryptos wishes?  I believe that the Machines inserted Cryptos so they pacify the the organization.  Did it work?  Not very well I guess.  But hey, nothing ever goes just right sometimes.

I never said they did it with malicious intent towards Zion. But don't you think they could have figured it out that a group named after one of Zion's worst traitors wouldn't have been such a smashing success in our eyes? After a few operations, hell, even after a few months, years of operations, don't you think that they should have seen the fact that we were combating them?

If they had such control over Cryptos, and, by extension, the organization, as you had claimed, why couldn't they have put an end to it? Why didn't they terminate the experiment when they had the chance?

But most of all, didn't they realize how detrimental this would be to the Truce if and when discovered? And they chose to take the risk in the first place?

Perhaps even more importantly - Now that it has been exposed, why don't they stop NOW?

I quote Agent Pace, "Also, it was very kind of Veil to arrive and offer some combat practice. Although relations with the Cypherites have been strained lately, with this type of inter-organizational cooperation and camaraderie, I think we will soon understand each other very well indeed."

That message doesn't exactly say "Alright, we admit we were wrong, and we're going to halt what working relationship we had in order to preserve the Truce, and our relations with Zion."

This doesn't exactly give me the impression that they value Zion, or even the Truce, for that matter.

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was a difficult task for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.
The group came to be known as the Cypherites. Under the overwritten Cryptos' leadership, they have been effective in reducing excess awakenings. However, Seraph's attack has disabled Cryptos, and revealed his Machine overwriting. This has led to a certain amount of...political fallout with Zion, and even among Cypherites. Agent Pace will describe your next task.

just putting that our there. Please continue.

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population. At the beginning of the truce period, it was a difficult task for us to control these excess awakenings without causing an overreaction in Zion.
The group came to be known as the Cypherites. Under the overwritten Cryptos' leadership, they have been effective in reducing excess awakenings. However, Seraph's attack has disabled Cryptos, and revealed his Machine overwriting. This has led to a certain amount of...political fallout with Zion, and even among Cypherites. Agent Pace will describe your next task.

just putting that our there. Please continue.

I see.  Well played there and thanks for the pretty colors!

But again, how does this violate the truce?  If the truce states that Zion is only allowed to extract the "alotted 1%" of the population and Zion exceeds that...who is at fault then?  See the problem is that there is NO DOCTRINE of policies that we have available that outlines the conditions, rules and regulations of the Truce.  Is there a clause that clearly states the Machines cannot govern the extraction of coppertops?  Or are you all just upset that someone was overwritten to be controlled and that its so "inhumane" that it simply MUST be a violation?

Regardless of it all, the change in Cryptos not only saved him but it also saved ALL of the lives he wanted to destroy via virtual nukes.  It's certainly seems convenient that Neo's very own program that resided in him. by the machines, can be overlooked because it was "to Zion's advantage".  Stopping Cryptos from destroying the truce should also be considered in our best interests.

Look the point is that you feel invaded and that your privacy is at stake.  You don't care about Cryptos anymore than I do.  You feel that this makes Zion better than the machines just because their spies were revealed.  So here's what you want to hear:

"Yeah, we inserted programs to spy on people and control others.  We're mean old bad machines.  Will you ever forgive us?"

The Boogeymen are coming

..... Go back to sleep

      to the rythem of the war drums

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

If Zion hadn't tried to awaken those who shouldn't have been, the Cypherite group would never have been formed. 

Illyria

GamiSB wrote:

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

If Zion hadn't tried to awaken those who shouldn't have been, the Cypherite group would never have been formed. 

Illyria

GamiSB wrote:

*cough*

Agent Gray: Operative, the Zionite known as Cryptos was overwritten by a Machine program years ago. This program's purpose was to form a group of humans dedicated to the task of preventing Zion from destabilizing the System by awakening more than the allotted 1% of the Matrix' population.

If Zion hadn't tried to awaken those who shouldn't have been, the Cypherite group would never have been formed. 

Illyria

Zion has the right to awaken all redpills who are ready. It's the founding principle of the Truce the Architect himself agreed to Illyria. If you want to talk about a group who shouldn't be awakening redpills, turn your attention to EPN. Otherwise you're going to have to produce the amendment to the truce we all missed about how Zion is not allowed to awaken redpills.

Zion has the right and does it right. The Machines lie and violate the Truce without ever attempting to work with Zion in good faith. End of story.

Time for you to go see how much you can recycle from that heap of scrap metal the General just made out of your Sentinals. When you're done with that, maybe you'll start thinking about working together towards peace. I'm not holding my breath, but the door is still open... for now.

Shouldn't have been? Um they took the red pill by their own choice. Are you trying to say that some self-imposed "limit" is adequate reason to take away their choice?

The limit isn't a random number that was decided on, it's the percentage of bluepills that will reject the simulation.  The other 99% are those whose subconscious choice was to accept it.  As long as you awaken those who are actually ready for it, there won't be a problem. 

Illyria

Skill wrote:

Shouldn't have been? Um they took the red pill by their own choice. Are you trying to say that some self-imposed "limit" is adequate reason to take away their choice?

The limit isn't a random number that was decided on, it's the percentage of bluepills that will reject the simulation.  The other 99% are those whose subconscious choice was to accept it.  As long as you awaken those who are actually ready for it, there won't be a problem. 

Illyria

That should be that hard to understand. But it is.

Go figure, Puppet.

I think it was Neoteny eariler that pointed out that what concerns the leaders of Zion is the fact that rather then speaking with Zion about the issue of freeing minds that may not be ready, the Machines insted set up an ellabrate system that has cost Zion many soliders both in the real and in the Matrix.

As for the overwriteing of Cryptos. Personly I glad you did it. That you turned him from a fanatic into something more "peaceful". The problem however is that there was more done then just Cryptos. Both unawakend and possibly potentials bluepills as well as freed Zion opertives have been victums to the Machines and thats where the concern is.

Skill wrote:

Shouldn't have been? Um they took the red pill by their own choice. Are you trying to say that some self-imposed "limit" is adequate reason to take away their choice?

The limit isn't a random number that was decided on, it's the percentage of bluepills that will reject the simulation.  The other 99% are those whose subconscious choice was to accept it.  As long as you awaken those who are actually ready for it, there won't be a problem. 

Illyria

The limit has nothing to do with how many redpills will reject the simulation. The limit is what the Machines consider acceptable to maintianing the stability of the simulation. Zion awakens all who are ready to reject the simulation and none who aren't. That is Zion's right by the terms of the Truce as agreed upon by the Architect himself. If the limit were as you say, then there wouldn't be a problem because it simply wouldn't be possible to awaken more than 1% if they weren't ready to reject the simulation.

You must be reading Saddakhan's mindless drivel again.

And yes Gamis, that is exactly the problem. The Machines lack the capacity to work with Zion in good faith regarding the terms of the Truce. They find it more efficient to violate the Truce at will than to make the kind of efforts with Zion that can lead to a real peace.

The limit has nothing to do with how many redpills will reject the simulation. The limit is what the Machines consider acceptable to maintianing the stability of the simulation.

OOC: 

You need to rewatch the movies.  1% was the number given.

r3spon5e wrote:

You must be reading Saddakhan's mindless drivel again.

IC: 

May I ask why you are bringing Sattakan into this again? 

Illyria

You have to keep in mind that if the Machines really wanted to break the truce and kill redpills, they wouldn't do it by sneaking around and wasting time by overwriting a Jamaican dude. They'd do it, and do it as fast as they possibly can.

You may all get off of your soap boxes now.

ThePigeonKing wrote:

You have to keep in mind that if the Machines really wanted to break the truce and kill redpills, they wouldn't do it by sneaking around and wasting time by overwriting a Jamaican dude. They'd do it, and do it as fast as they possibly can.

You may all get off of your soap boxes now.

Personally I think they want to have war, but they don't want it to look like their fault for whatever reason.

r3spon5e wrote:

The limit has nothing to do with how many redpills will reject the simulation. The limit is what the Machines consider acceptable to maintianing the stability of the simulation.

OOC: 

You need to rewatch the movies.  1% was the number given.

IC:

The premise is that that was a lie.

r3spon5e wrote:

You must be reading Saddakhan's mindless drivel again.

IC: 

May I ask why you are bringing Sattakan into this again? 

Illyria

The premise is that that was a lie.

If that was the case, there would be mass crop failures again...which occurred in the first and second versions of the Matrix, because so many people rejected them. 

Illyria

Skill wrote:

The premise is that that was a lie.

If that was the case, there would be mass crop failures again...which occurred in the first and second versions of the Matrix, because so many people rejected them. 

Illyria

Illyria22 wrote:

Skill wrote:

The premise is that that was a lie.

If that was the case, there would be mass crop failures again...which occurred in the first and second versions of the Matrix, because so many people rejected them. 

Illyria

Which is why i guess they would have said 1%, even if it IS wrong.

((Okay are you sure it's 1% he said anyway? Wikipedia said it's 0.1% or something but they sometimes have a bad rep for misinformation :/ ))

Skill wrote:

Illyria22 wrote:

Skill wrote:

The premise is that that was a lie.

If that was the case, there would be mass crop failures again...which occurred in the first and second versions of the Matrix, because so many people rejected them. 

Illyria

Which is why i guess they would have said 1%, even if it IS wrong.

((Okay are you sure it's 1% he said anyway? Wikipedia said it's 0.1% or something but they sometimes have a bad rep for misinformation :/ ))

((its 1% go watch reloaded again))

((Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

100 - 99 = 1))

((Architect: Please. As I was saying, she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99% of all test subjects accepted the program, as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a near unconscious level.

100 - 99 = 1))

Agent Pace, my how you have messed this up. Those poor poor silly cave monkeys will spit their dummies out over this and cry like little babies they are, good work my dear.

Twaggy wrote:

Agent Pace, my how you have messed this up. Those poor poor silly cave monkeys will spit their dummies out over this and cry like little babies they are, good work my dear.

To show the height of your will in meager sums of arms. Your tongue doesn't flare my skin nor heat my anger. So should we, again, part the darkened pixels with our own words of distaste, try to contain these thoughts till then, "your eyes caught the tones of your own mental chorus and our retort is the shimmering song of laughter."

And note, Agent Gray said alotted 1%, not maximum or anything like that.
However, 1% is the "norm" which is how it is under normal conditions when Zion's population is limited by deaths.
I'd say it was at least 3% with Neo hanging around. Probably more now, with the truce brings more favorable conditions.

I doubt the number would increase much above that 1%.  Zion may have been freeing alot more people than it used to, but they're nowhere near 1% of the population.  1% of 6 billion is still 60 million.

Illyria