[7.1.3] RUNTIME ERROR - Recursion - 3/23/07

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:

   There's a difference between a leader and an idea.  I wouldn't be surprised if this strenghtened the Cypherites.

The plot thickens....

The peace is hanging by a thread...

Poor Machines, now you are going to reap the whirlwind.  Not only are you going to have Zion after you for violating the Truce, but EPN, and the Cypherites for being used like this.  Add into the stew the possibility of the "Old" Cryptos returning with his genocidal Matrix-crashing ambitions, and you have one volatile mix.

This is problematic.

You will hear from me.

who called it?

Too much speculation and not enough proof.  I don't want to sound like a broken record and repeat what everyone has already said, but it's true that The Machines could wipe out Zion anytime they felt like it.  Who wants war more than any human or program?  I think you'll find your answers at 'Stalingrad'

Yeah, to bad Gray and Pace basicly just blew that idea out of the water when both of them admitted that the Cypherite Org was an elabrite form of control to keep the Zion awakenings of the 1% in check.

Sorry Machinest but your bosses are very much behind Cryptos and are the reason for the Cypherite organization.

Procurator]Indeed, this sadly appears to be true.

However, I stand by my statement that the General seemed a far more likely candidate as puppet master. What's more, as has been argued to death here already, the fact that the Machines controlled Cryptos means nothing. The Machines, when they told me about the Cypherites, still condemn their violent nature, and are working hard to ensure Veil does not continue to persue such a path.

Rest assured that, should Veil continue her murderous rampage, she will be removed from the equation.

It does mean something. They took people, both red and blue pills in this suposed "peace" and changed there very being. What does that say about this freedom they are supose to already have. Or that they were then used as spies to monitor Zion. This is a very compicated situation that trying to push out of the way wont fix.

Sooner or later the Machines are going to do something for Zion to make amends least we go to war again.

((Gami....need something to explain how you came about that information seeings how you are not supposed to have been able to do that mission if not a machinist.  It would be the same if I stated something from a Zion mission due to running it with an Alt.  Not to be mean or anything, but its odd you would know so fast in RP land ;-p  ))

Procurator]

Oh yeah, and just 'cos the Machines controlled Cryptos doesn't mean they did anything to the other people Seraph's had dealings with.

((Gami....need something to explain how you came about that information seeings how you are not supposed to have been able to do that mission if not a machinist.  It would be the same if I stated something from a Zion mission due to running it with an Alt.  Not to be mean or anything, but its odd you would know so fast in RP land ;-p  ))

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

Your facts are straight about the situation Gami...though how you received that information is troubling.  The fact remains that it is understandable how the Cypherites created a balance to the EPN.  It is balance that allows the world to stay away from a course leading to chaos.  If one side is more powerful then the other...war is usually not too far off.  The situation at hand, however, is more important.  Veil is a major threat to the system and to Zion as well.  Left unchecked...her and her followers will create a dangerous situation.

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

Fryzool wrote:

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

((well that and also ive pretty much had that idea sence starshwar waaaaaaaay back when showed me that little audio convo bettween Gray and Cryptos.))

Procurator]If you go to War again, the Machines will be disappointed, but not harmed. And humanity won't get another chance.

So confident. You been thinking ahead? I don't think so.
If we go to war it will be people like Illyria who are disappointed. The machines would likely have seen this coming.
((Especially considering that they have indirectly referred to Zion as their enemy))

Anyway, they can do whatever they want to Bluepills (the Matrix is out of bounds, technically, apart from awakenings). And Redpills? I don't know the details around their use yet, but they haven't showed any signs of wanting to be reinserted, so that's not their aim.

I think a lot of theories surrounding this stuff has come up, and let's face it, it sure as hell never makes the machines look any good.

Oh yeah, and just 'cos the Machines controlled Cryptos doesn't mean they did anything to the other people Seraph's had dealings with.

Theory debunked today. I thought there was something special about him too, but I guess he was just another victim, only with more importance.

GamiSB wrote:

Fryzool wrote:

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

((well that and also ive pretty much had that idea sence starshwar waaaaaaaay back when showed me that little audio convo bettween Gray and Cryptos.))

((Or perhaps you just read the thread Veils in the missions and storyline board..))

Yes the Machines were behind it, it seems, but those who have seen their reasons ((you can see in the thread I mentioned above)) would have to agree.
The balance of the system means that up to 1% of the population of the system may reject the simulation, thus they can be told the truth and awakened according to the truce.
It seems that there are some Organisations out there that want more than 1% This in itself is against the truce...

We still seem to be hung up on Cryptos. *CENSORED* those other redpills and blues who got their mind changed on them unwillingly or unknowning eh? Dress it up all you like, state your reasons and logic behind it but in the end it just proves that the human race is still not free. Not when they are asleep in the pods, and no longer when they are awake in the real.

Croesus wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Fryzool wrote:

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

((well that and also ive pretty much had that idea sence starshwar waaaaaaaay back when showed me that little audio convo bettween Gray and Cryptos.))

((Or perhaps you just read the thread Veils in the missions and storyline board..))

Yes the Machines were behind it, it seems, but those who have seen their reasons ((you can see in the thread I mentioned above)) would have to agree.
The balance of the system means that up to 1% of the population of the system may reject the simulation, thus they can be told the truth and awakened according to the truce.
It seems that there are some Organisations out there that want more than 1% This in itself is against the truce...

We still seem to be hung up on Cryptos. *CENSORED* those other redpills and blues who got their mind changed on them unwillingly or unknowning eh? Dress it up all you like, state your reasons and logic behind it but in the end it just proves that the human race is still not free. Not when they are asleep in the pods, and no longer when they are awake in the real.

GamiSB wrote:

Croesus wrote:

GamiSB wrote:

Fryzool wrote:

((Then apparently some Machinists talk too much..lol.  Your intimate knowledge about the situation was just wierd.  thought maybe it was some spy thing or something.  Just wante to know a little more about how you heard this in what you posted...like hearing it while sitting near a hardline or something.))

((well that and also ive pretty much had that idea sence starshwar waaaaaaaay back when showed me that little audio convo bettween Gray and Cryptos.))

((Or perhaps you just read the thread Veils in the missions and storyline board..))

Yes the Machines were behind it, it seems, but those who have seen their reasons ((you can see in the thread I mentioned above)) would have to agree.
The balance of the system means that up to 1% of the population of the system may reject the simulation, thus they can be told the truth and awakened according to the truce.
It seems that there are some Organisations out there that want more than 1% This in itself is against the truce...

We still seem to be hung up on Cryptos. *CENSORED* those other redpills and blues who got their mind changed on them unwillingly or unknowning eh? Dress it up all you like, state your reasons and logic behind it but in the end it just proves that the human race is still not free. Not when they are asleep in the pods, and no longer when they are awake in the real.

To add to this, the .01% was a statistic that the Architect referenced under the previous system of control, utilizing the One to mark the points between versions of the Matrix. This we've seen isn't the case anymore(as far as we know). Those that want out "will be freed", the Oracle and the Architect agreed in the truce. Extraction is done more freely, where as Agents interfered with it as we've seen before. As such, bluepills that would have been met with resistance and dissuasion before the truce are able to seek the truth more openly now. So that number may be subject to change and hardly balanced by putting people that already rejected the system back in it. There is no justification in this issue with Cryptos. Had this been the work of men, many Machinists here would have condemned it. But it's justified for the sake of "balance", heh. Then again, if some "Machinists" would have been around when Neo was making the choice, they would have told him to go through the other door too, but I digress.

- Ezechiel

Machinists, we do not have to answer to these fools who jump to absurd conclusions.  As Gray said "What has happened has happened" and it cannot be changed. 

We have more pressing matters.  The General, firstly, and the Ship headed to Zion under Veil's command....ah yes, the Zionites forgot that bit wherein the Machines sentinels are tracking said ship to prevent it from reaching Zion and detonating it's EMP. 

I have grown tired of these arguements, especially given the fact that most Zionites cannot differentiate between Machine and Machinist.  Zion exists because the Machines allow it to exist, do not forget that salient point.

Machinists, we do not have to answer to these fools who jump to absurd conclusions.  As Gray said "What has happened has happened" and it cannot be changed. 

We have more pressing matters.  The General, firstly, and the Ship headed to Zion under Veil's command....ah yes, the Zionites forgot that bit wherein the Machines sentinels are tracking said ship to prevent it from reaching Zion and detonating it's EMP. 

I have grown tired of these arguements, especially given the fact that most Zionites cannot differentiate between Machine and Machinist.  Zion exists because the Machines allow it to exist, do not forget that salient point.

If we go to war it will be people like Illyria who are disappointed.

Yes, I would be disappointed, because it would mean that humanity has failed again...it would be the latest in a long string of failures, which include starting the original war against the Machines and wiping out most of the species on the planet by darkening the sky.

We can only hope that our species has grown up a bit since then, and is capable of not destroying themselves or anyone else again.

Illyria

Skill wrote:

If we go to war it will be people like Illyria who are disappointed.

Yes, I would be disappointed, because it would mean that humanity has failed again...it would be the latest in a long string of failures, which include starting the original war against the Machines and wiping out most of the species on the planet by darkening the sky.

We can only hope that our species has grown up a bit since then, and is capable of not destroying themselves or anyone else again.

Illyria

I knew you would. Personally, I wouldn't put the blame on humanity's shoulders, at least not this time.

I'm not going to deny that what the machines alledgedly have done would put quite the bug in Zion's bum, but THIS act will not lead to war.  It will cause distrust, tension and anger, but Zion will not attack the Machine City.  It's absolutely not in anyone's interest at this point.

Keep in mind, this entire fiasco is merely a distraction from something much, MUCH more pressing....The General.

I swear, most of you really come off as a group of village folk sitting around with your torches and pitchforks WANTING an excuse to mob someone.  Everyone has spies, don't hate the machines just because they came up with a cuter way of doing it. 

Illyria22 wrote:

Skill wrote:

If we go to back war to the cycle of the One it will be people like Illyria Zion and the Oracle who are disappointed.

Yes, I would be disappointed, because it would mean that humanity has failed again...it would be the latest in a long string of failures, which include starting the original war against the Machines and wiping out most of the species on the planet by darkening the sky.

We can only hope that our species has grown up a bit since then, and is capable of not destroying themselves or anyone else again.

Illyria

I knew you would. Personally, I wouldn't put the blame on humanity's shoulders, at least not this time.

How is working with people of a common cause to protect that which matters most to YOU being a Lemma?

Oh, but somehow everyone else is supposed to absorb your condescending propaganda and follow along like Lemmas themselves. Smooth hypocrisy as always Illyria.

Eight out of every nine Machinists seek power at the sacrifice of life. Machinists such as yourself abandone Zion and humanity to work for the Machines because it is the position of power. Power is the fuel of your arrogance, condescension and the belief the Machines can do no wrong despite they are in control of everything and repeatedly violate the Truce you and others say is an opportunity for humanity to prove itself worthy. Power corrupts. Absolute power brings absolute corruption. The Machines have absolute power and are absolutely corrupt.

Time for you to clean up your own house Illyria. You've got nothing to criticize others for here. The Machines care about nothing but control. They cannot be trusted. Yet you had the audacity to suggest to all Zion factions on Recursion that Zion should benignly hand over mainframe access to the benevolent compassionate and honorable Machines. They are cold, calculating, conniving, manipulative, dispassionate and honorless. The Truce is their tool to continue their control of humanity. That is their only agenda. Nothing you say changes that. Only the Machines' actions can demonstrate a change in their agenda.

Zion doesn't violate the Truce, or we would have all been returned to the Cycle of the One by now. Zion cannot hold the Machines accountable for their repeated violations of the Truce because Zion doesn't have the power to hold the Machines accountable let alone destroy them. Zion can only hope the Machines have honor enough to uphold their end of the Truce. That hope is rather bleak at this point. The fact is the one who truly brought us to this place we are at with the Truce is the Oracle. This is a sad day in Zion and a sad day for the Oracle.  All that has been sacrificed for is at grave risk now and you still can't look yourself in the mirror and face the truth. Or maybe you feel your propaganda is in line with the deception for the Machines. That makes far more sense than trying to believe the things you say in the face of overwhelming evidence.

You will be more than sad if the Cycle of the One returns Illyria. Your only hope of surviving the return of the Cycle is if the Machines reward your loyalty with the opportunity to repropagate Zion after the simulation is reset. What an irony it would be for you to find yourself lying prostrate in the dirt of a destroyed Zion inviting other 'privileged' Machinists to take you in the name of perpetuating the Cycle the of the One.

Your loyalty to the Machines' agenda of control will be honored with the privilege of being the ultimate Cave Monkey. And when the next cycle starts after that, you will be forgotten.

Let's all hope that sooner rather than later the Machines' continued failure to control a subjugated humanity will bring them to logically conclude that real Peace is the only hope for all.

How is working with people of a common cause to protect that which matters most to YOU being a Lemma?

It's not.

Oh, but somehow everyone else is supposed to absorb your condescending propaganda and follow along like Lemmas themselves. Smooth hypocrisy as always Illyria.

What are you talking about? 

Eight out of every nine Machinists seek power at the sacrifice of life. Machinists such as yourself abandone Zion and humanity to work for the Machines because it is the position of power. Power is the fuel of your arrogance, condescension and the belief the Machines can do no wrong despite they are in control of everything and repeatedly violate the Truce you and others say is an opportunity for humanity to prove itself worthy. Power corrupts. Absolute power brings absolute corruption. The Machines have absolute power and are absolutely corrupt.

Not true.

Time for you to clean up your own house Illyria. You've got nothing to criticize others for here. The Machines care about nothing but control.

True.  But what is control?  Are you not aware of the obvious fact that both races need each other?   

They cannot be trusted.

So says the most mischievous beast of them all.   

Yet you had the audacity to suggest to all Zion factions on Recursion that Zion should benignly hand over mainframe access to the benevolent compassionate and honorable Machines. They are cold, calculating, conniving, manipulative, dispassionate and honorless. The Truce is their tool to continue their control of humanity. That is their only agenda. Nothing you say changes that. Only the Machines' actions can demonstrate a change in their agenda.

True, actions do speak louder than words.  Both sides are trying to honor the truce, but its rough when for so long we were at each others throats.  Sounds like you're still stinging from something.  Let it go, k?

Zion doesn't violate the Truce, or we would have all been returned to the Cycle of the One by now. Zion cannot hold the Machines accountable for their repeated violations of the Truce because Zion doesn't have the power to hold the Machines accountable let alone destroy them.

Repeated violations?  Please elaborate.   

Zion can only hope the Machines have honor enough to uphold their end of the Truce.

What do you think they are, human?  Have you not realized that a very large majority of the machines don't actually have this thing you call "choice". 

That hope is rather bleak at this point.

Don't give up.  Neo would be disappointed. 

The fact is the one who truly brought us to this place we are at with the Truce is the Oracle. This is a sad day in Zion and a sad day for the Oracle. 

Perhaps.  But maybe it'll be sadder when we all find out whose behind it all.  Right?

All that has been sacrificed for is at grave risk now and you still can't look yourself in the mirror and face the truth. Or maybe you feel your propaganda is in line with the deception for the Machines. That makes far more sense than trying to believe the things you say in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Overwhelming?  Please submit all evidence to the court so that the jury may make an informed verdict. 

You will be more than sad if the Cycle of the One returns Illyria. Your only hope of surviving the return of the Cycle is if the Machines reward your loyalty with the opportunity to repropagate Zion after the simulation is reset. What an irony it would be for you to find yourself lying prostrate in the dirt of a destroyed Zion inviting other 'privileged' Machinists to take you in the name of perpetuating the Cycle the of the One.

That's highly uncalled for I think.  Speak of my friend in such a manner like that again and I'll see to it that you're prostrate in the dirt in her place.  K?

Your loyalty to the Machines' agenda of control will be honored with the privilege of being the ultimate Cave Monkey. And when the next cycle starts after that, you will be forgotten.

Now you're just trying to be inflamatory.

Let's all hope that sooner rather than later the Machines' continued failure to control a subjugated humanity will bring them to logically conclude that real Peace is the only hope for all.

We all want peace, my friend.  It just seems that you want it at the end of a barrel.  Or do you have the morale conviction to lay down your arms?  Or does the anger deep within you that resents and hates the machines for what they did drive you to be the violent agressor in this quest for peace?

r3spon5e wrote:

How is working with people of a common cause to protect that which matters most to YOU being a Lemma?

It's not.

((what's a Lemma again? ))

Oh, but somehow everyone else is supposed to absorb your condescending propaganda and follow along like Lemmas themselves. Smooth hypocrisy as always Illyria.

What are you talking about?

Eight out of every nine Machinists seek power at the sacrifice of life. Machinists such as yourself abandone Zion and humanity to work for the Machines because it is the position of power. Power is the fuel of your arrogance, condescension and the belief the Machines can do no wrong despite they are in control of everything and repeatedly violate the Truce you and others say is an opportunity for humanity to prove itself worthy. Power corrupts. Absolute power brings absolute corruption. The Machines have absolute power and are absolutely corrupt.

Not true.

98 percent of it is true.

Time for you to clean up your own house Illyria. You've got nothing to criticize others for here. The Machines care about nothing but control.

True.  But what is control?  Are you not aware of the obvious fact that both races need each other?  

((as shown below, he does))

They cannot be trusted.

So says the most mischievous beast of them all.  

Prove it.

Yet you had the audacity to suggest to all Zion factions on Recursion that Zion should benignly hand over mainframe access to the benevolent compassionate and honorable Machines. They are cold, calculating, conniving, manipulative, dispassionate and honorless. The Truce is their tool to continue their control of humanity. That is their only agenda. Nothing you say changes that. Only the Machines' actions can demonstrate a change in their agenda.

True, actions do speak louder than words.  Both sides are trying to honor the truce, but its rough when for so long we were at each others throats.  Sounds like you're still stinging from something.  Let it go, k?

Machines aren't trying to honor the truce. A machine does not "try" the either do or they don't. And they don't. All they do is try to gain our trust, which simply isn't the same.

Zion doesn't violate the Truce, or we would have all been returned to the Cycle of the One by now. Zion cannot hold the Machines accountable for their repeated violations of the Truce because Zion doesn't have the power to hold the Machines accountable let alone destroy them.

Repeated violations?  Please elaborate.  

Depends on if you still consider it a violation when you don't get caught.

Zion can only hope the Machines have honor enough to uphold their end of the Truce.

What do you think they are, human?  Have you not realized that a very large majority of the machines don't actually have this thing you call "choice".

Okay. Then Zion can only hope the Machines' leaders have honor enough to hold up their end of the Truce.

That hope is rather bleak at this point.

Don't give up.  Neo would be disappointed.

Heh, maybe he'll be the one to end the truce himself.

The fact is the one who truly brought us to this place we are at with the Truce is the Oracle. This is a sad day in Zion and a sad day for the Oracle. 

Perhaps.  But maybe it'll be sadder when we all find out whose behind it all.  Right?

I have a few candidates.

All that has been sacrificed for is at grave risk now and you still can't look yourself in the mirror and face the truth. Or maybe you feel your propaganda is in line with the deception for the Machines. That makes far more sense than trying to believe the things you say in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Overwhelming?  Please submit all evidence to the court so that the jury may make an informed verdict.

((Where do i start... Just run through the archive crits and you'll find about 20 pieces.))

You will be more than sad if the Cycle of the One returns Illyria. Your only hope of surviving the return of the Cycle is if the Machines reward your loyalty with the opportunity to repropagate Zion after the simulation is reset. What an irony it would be for you to find yourself lying prostrate in the dirt of a destroyed Zion inviting other 'privileged' Machinists to take you in the name of perpetuating the Cycle the of the One.

That's highly uncalled for I think.  Speak of my friend in such a manner like that again and I'll see to it that you're prostrate in the dirt in her place.  K?

Kind of.

Your loyalty to the Machines' agenda of control will be honored with the privilege of being the ultimate Cave Monkey. And when the next cycle starts after that, you will be forgotten.

Now you're just trying to be inflamatory.

(( "the ultimate cave monkey" made me giggle))

Let's all hope that sooner rather than later the Machines' continued failure to control a subjugated humanity will bring them to logically conclude that real Peace is the only hope for all.

We all want peace, my friend.  It just seems that you want it at the end of a barrel.  Or do you have the morale conviction to lay down your arms?  Or does the anger deep within you that resents and hates the machines for what they did drive you to be the violent agressor in this quest for peace?

The machines don't want peace, I can tell that from their actions.

I don't know why they don't seem to want war either, though. Perhaps after the General is out of the way.

I'll admit, none of us is without sin...

...but this is the sort of thing that makes me wish the Council was more willing to work with E Pluribus Neo.  Without the One, you Machines would all be digital dust right now.  Try to remember that.

I know I will.

-Stigmata

No!

You! Remember this!

Humans created what enslaves us. And humans will overcome what enslaves us!

Even if............ it's our own minds!

Machine control must end.

Commander Pill.

<Vengeance Rising>

Oh, but somehow everyone else is supposed to absorb your condescending propaganda and follow along like Lemmas themselves.

Eight out of every nine Machinists seek power at the sacrifice of life. Machinists such as yourself abandone Zion and humanity to work for the Machines because it is the position of power. Power is the fuel of your arrogance, condescension and the belief the Machines can do no wrong despite they are in control of everything and repeatedly violate the Truce you and others say is an opportunity for humanity to prove itself worthy. Power corrupts. Absolute power brings absolute corruption. The Machines have absolute power and are absolutely corrupt.

[...] The Machines care about nothing but control. They cannot be trusted. [...] They are cold, calculating, conniving, manipulative, dispassionate and honorless. The Truce is their tool to continue their control of humanity. That is their only agenda. Nothing you say changes that. Only the Machines' actions can demonstrate a change in their agenda.

Eh...?

...Ah, this business... Well, it probably gives us a little ground for negotiation--with the programs, that is--but I wouldn't be calling for blood just yet, it'd be a waste of valuable time.

It's a shame, a terrible shame, to lose as gifted a man as Cryptos, but the Cypherites are not snakes; We move on, this 'decapitation' is just the shifting of the clouds, we still see the sky...

- Tranta