[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

#36300195485 03/24/2007 06:27:44 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Rarebit wrote:

This is not a movie, it is a game, and except for cinematics and missions, the story is to a large degree unscripted.

Except for events, where we'll put NightTrace on ignore @ non-Machine events cause he might say something mean.
SMILEY

scampers away

#36300195503 03/24/2007 07:05:41 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I got to be the only Effy clone!! Woot!!

#36300195507 03/24/2007 07:14:11 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Rarebit wrote:

Bah, I probably give you guys too much credit as it is. :ppp Next time you don't understand something, try using your imagination. It'll be so much more fun than trying to chisel some cut and dried answer out of me. When did the W brothers ever really explain the Architect's dialogue in Reloaded, or the end of Revolutions? I can only dream of being able to be as deliciously vague as they were.

If you want to drop anything that looks too fun out of a story timeline you're composing, then hey, that's your prerogative; go for it! But like I said, stuff happens. This is not a movie, it is a game, and except for cinematics and missions, the story is to a large degree unscripted. I'm not going to do something in the game that I think is detrimental to the story, but I'm also not going to take time out to cater to whatever arbitrary divisions players want to make of things. Do what you like! Put your own spin on it!

So it was meant as a serious addition to the story? SMILEY

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195514 03/24/2007 07:35:03 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Rarebit wrote:

If you want to drop anything that looks too fun out of a story timeline you're composing, then hey, that's your prerogative; go for it! But like I said, stuff happens. This is not a movie, it is a game, and except for cinematics and missions, the story is to a large degree unscripted. I'm not going to do something in the game that I think is detrimental to the story, but I'm also not going to take time out to cater to whatever arbitrary divisions players want to make of things. Do what you like! Put your own spin on it!

I know that and i admittedly do 'put my own spin' on it. Because i know how the game works, how it works on the several different levels. But what i'm saying is people on outside dont know that. If theres event thats blatantly just for fun and contributes nothing to the story then untag it - simple. If nothing else just to make things clear for those on the outside.

I deal with them every day; my friends at college i talk to about the game, the forum posters on mmorpg and gamespot, in-game at uriah, redpill rescue, youtube. Not everyone knows how this game works, how its story is written, how 'stuff happens'. I know people who would frankly be disgusted at having an event like this considered part of the story. They'd simply disregard the game as a joke of the franchise. Because they don't know.
Without new players who stay on this game will just wither and die. And tagging/not tagging an event like this doesn't help.

Thats all i'm saying.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195527 03/24/2007 07:58:04 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I was showing people this pic that didnt hear about this event yet.

All I heard was *CENSORED* There isnt a sub in debir.

#36300195563 03/24/2007 08:46:59 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Rarebit wrote:

Bah, I probably give you guys too much credit as it is. :ppp Next time you don't understand something, try using your imagination. It'll be so much more fun than trying to chisel some cut and dried answer out of me. When did the W brothers ever really explain the Architect's dialogue in Reloaded, or the end of Revolutions? I can only dream of being able to be as deliciously vague as they were.

If you want to drop anything that looks too fun out of a story timeline you're composing, then hey, that's your prerogative; go for it! But like I said, stuff happens. This is not a movie, it is a game, and except for cinematics and missions, the story is to a large degree unscripted. I'm not going to do something in the game that I think is detrimental to the story, but I'm also not going to take time out to cater to whatever arbitrary divisions players want to make of things. Do what you like! Put your own spin on it!

I'm with Rare, as I said elsewhere when the word "Canon" was brought up. It's not relevant whether something is "Canon" or not, that's for you to decide. This party happened in the Matrix, with an event character...it happened, there's no changing it. Whether you want to refer to it is up to you. The same applies for, say, Halloween; I know some people that have incorporated it into their storylines (their storylines aren't "Canon" to you but they are still a part of the universe and "Canon" to those who wrote them or participate in them) and use it quite well. Then there's the weekly SI party, are those "not relevant" because they are not "canon" , they still get referred to, for example in The Sentinel or by Event Characters. In the end, decide for yourself, use your judgement and your imagination.

Reloaded had a Cave Rave scene, why is this any different?

#36300195569 03/24/2007 08:55:23 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Papergh0st wrote:

cloudwolf wrote:

Right, now i'm just confused. In the past Rare has himself said the game and it's development team have an obligation to continue and value the storyline the brothers have handed to them then the next it's "Stuff happens. Whether or not it's worth remembering is a matter of opinion."
What is it then? A serious obligation with fun thrown in or just one big joke?
Cos if it's the latter i just don't know how i should view this game anymore.
---------------------------------------------------
But what i'm saying is people on outside dont know that.
If theres event thats blatantly just for fun and contributes nothing to
the story then untag it - simple. If nothing else just to make things
clear for those on the outside.
i think the question to ask is - is an event ingame worthy of "canon" status purely if its six people talking to a live event character and doing nothing else for forty minutes, or something that ultimately involves punching people in the face or shooting at them in a big brawl with a bit of plot thrown in for good measure? and does the scope for "canon" not include stuff that doesn't necessarily involve any of the above? and if not, why not?

neo flying or stopping bullets, or twins turning into "ghosts", or werewolves or magical techno-keys that open up doorways to white corridors are at least as "far out / wacky / whatever" as some uber powerful program with a sense of humour that can change your rsi into a phonebooth for half an hour, and (to me, anyway) at least as valid.

I deal with them every day;
my friends at college i talk to about the game, the forum posters on
mmorpg and gamespot, in-game at uriah, redpill rescue, youtube. Not
everyone knows how this game works, how its story is written, how
'stuff happens'.

...couldn't they just ask instead of dismissing it based on a throwaway judgment based on something they saw on a forum somewhere? if they base a throwaway judgement like that, its more of a failing on their part than anyone elses. if its really that important, they'd ask before dismissing.

I know people who would frankly be disgusted at having
an event like this considered part of the story. They'd simply
disregard the game as a joke of the franchise.

...how does someone get to the point where they'd actually be "disgusted" because of a handling of something in a computer game? they're that obsessed with the matrix franchise that it being "canonically incorrect" would disgust them, yet in the two years the game has been out they probably never bothered with the game in the first place? if the game is so unimportant to them, why would they care?

as for the ending to path of neo, let's be clear - thats in there because they thought Neo dying would be a "lame ending" for a videogame.

if you analyse what they replaced it with, the end sequence itself AND the music they play - they're razzing you.

well, not you. to be more specific - they're razzing the people who would be so antsy about the "prestige" and "sanctity" and, yes, "canon" of a film trilogy thats basically disposable entertainment treated as the Second Coming being altered or "messed with" that they would indeed find it "disgusting".

#36300195571 03/24/2007 08:57:53 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Well i just shed a silent tear for those potential subscribers lost due to stubborn-ness around a personal timestamp. Past, present and apparently future.

I'm done.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195573 03/24/2007 09:00:44 [7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Oh and the Path of Neo ending was to 'razz' critics of the film sequels, not people who accept using the word Canon.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195574 03/24/2007 09:04:02 [7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

No subscriber is going to be lost because the thread title has [7.1.3] in it. If they read the thread they'll make up their own *CENSORED* minds.

#36300195578 03/24/2007 09:15:40 [7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

Oh and the Path of Neo ending was to 'razz' critics of the film sequels, not people who accept using the word Canon.

its razzing anyone that takes it too seriously, from "oh god these films are the worst and i must complain to jesus" critics, to the fans that took things waaaaaaaay too seriously. i mean, wouldn't the people who'd get so worked up over "canon" in a game they're not even playing be classed as "critics" of some description anyway?

i remember when the game was about to come out and the real hardcore matrix nerds, the kind that end up next to star trek fans at conventions and would stab you in the face if you dared suggest that revolutions kind of sucked, were working themselves into a matrix nerd rampage, posting wild eyed crazy post after wild eyed crazy post about how "all would be revealed", "neo would return", how the game end would justify the faith of all those who defended both sequels in terms of philosophy and execution with the greatest ending to a game of all time - heck, i think some of them were fully expecting neo himself to float out of their TVs and turn them into the architect or something. they just got worse and worse as the game got closer. i'm sure people out there experienced the kind of thing i'm talking about.

and then......

.......and then..........

...................and then.....................

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

oh, how i lolled. to this day, i can pinpoint the exact moment in that ending when a thousand angry nerds had their rage go into orbit and their heads simultaneously explode.

(32 seconds)

#36300195580 03/24/2007 09:16:06 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

#36300195583 03/24/2007 09:20:16 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

Well i just shed a silent tear for those potential subscribers lost due to stubborn-ness around a personal timestamp. Past, present and apparently future.

I'm done.

If people think the Mx story has been bastardised by MxO, they don't need to look at this to make up their minds. Fun events like this draw them in, not push them away.

I understand your concern from a certain, rather extreme angle, mate, but this is a lot more of a molehill than the mountain you've created.

#36300195589 03/24/2007 09:30:02 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

Well i just shed a silent tear for those potential subscribers lost due to stubborn-ness around a personal timestamp. Past, present and apparently future.

I'm done.

Its just a game cloud, what about path of neo with the ant people? and with the giant smith. If you don't like the way the story is going then either 1: Don't consider this an continue of the story, 2: Write your own. Or better both

I would like to see what you could up with because i am *CENSORED* sure its nothing compared to what the mxo team is doing. Don't like where mxo is going? Get over it or get out

God *CENSORED* n00b

#36300195592 03/24/2007 09:40:02 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Personally, a time stamp on event just shows me the chronological order of happenings within the game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that party events like this one and other event's, are made for the enjoyment of the gamer rather than continuation of "canon" storyline! In the end you have to think of it as: Did the event chronicled move the current storyline forward at all? Was there any mention of the current storyline? No? Just a fun event where players could enjoy themselves.

Not everything has to have a point......

#36300195593 03/24/2007 09:40:56 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

DevilsArms wrote:

cloudwolf wrote:

Its just a game cloud, what about path of neo with the ant people?

Don't forget the bit where Neo and Seraph are fighting in the cinema while the fight from the film plays onscreen and the heckler in the audience is yelling at them to get out of the way and also ribbing the trilogy itself.

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

#36300195599 03/24/2007 09:49:00 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

OK, I know CloudWolf has probably been a bit more outspoken on this issue than is absolutely necessary, but I think people should get off his back a bit, especially when comparing MxO to PoN, which I don't think works!

PoN is clearly 'just a game' it's clear from the start that this is the case, there are bits of the game I would consider to be canon, or at least parts that could make sense as part of the storyline, but other parts are clearly "just a game" Because the game roughly follows the story, yet stakes no claim at being "official" I'm free to make this choice as I chose and include whatever into my 'personal canon'

MxO is different, why? Because it is a continuation of the Matrix storyline, not an alternate telling of part of what's already there. People play MxO because it's a chance to be a part of the Matrix world, the "official" Matrix world, and because we can see how the story progresses, the "official" Matrix story that is, therefore we have a right to expect a form of continuity in the game...which is largely there.

Personally I'm not too bothered about this, it's clear that this event was just for fun, be it canon or otherwise - and until someone decides to make an "official storyline" book or whatever I guess it is effectively up to us which bits to keep and what to throw away.

However, even if he is a bit more forward than necessary, Cloudwolf is still well within his rights to ask for clarification on what is "canon2 or whatever.

#36300195604 03/24/2007 09:55:58 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Tseng. wrote:

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

I understand the explaination, it's the circumstance i find unbelievable. Like the things effy says and the fact the machines would allow a train RSI manipulation thing to dance around for hours without any action. Circumstance and relevance is what makes things canonical to me, not explainations. Oh and on a random note, no, i don't see the RSI pills as canon either, merely another game convention. Heck, I continue to hope they never get used in the official story.

Papergh0st wrote:

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

You can kill that guy? =P

But meh, most people arn't getting the points im trying to get across and are instead warping them to present me as some sort of, oh how i love this term (been branded several times), Canon Nazi.

Maybe the nature of this game's storyline needs to be better described on the website when the guide finally gets done.

I've made all the points i want to make to the people i want to make them to so yeah, theres no point going on, we can leave it now.

And for whats its worth FF, thanks. Oh and PB too for keeping it cool.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195613 03/24/2007 10:11:03 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I think this event in particular would have had quite an effect on any bluepills that happened to see these creatures. It's within the character of the Effectuator to do something like this, but I would expect the Machines to be upset about it.

#36300195618 03/24/2007 10:23:33 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

You can kill that guy? =P

yeah - takes a few goes but if you nail him with the broom he shuts up and you don't see him in the seat (i think there's a cutscene after the fight where the camera pans across the seats and usually, he's in there).

#36300195624 03/24/2007 10:30:05 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

Tseng. wrote:

cloudwolf i have a question. why do you deam everything you dont have an angle on this non-canon? can you not take it as face value. the effectuator is a program that manilpulates code. our rsi's are mearly code representing our minds in the matrix. all the effetuator was doing was altering that code so other would perseve us as an object. if you cant aknowlage that then do you allso deam the rsi pill "non-cannon" since they do the same thing only perminatly.

I understand the explaination, it's the circumstance i find unbelievable. Like the things effy says and the fact the machines would allow a train RSI manipulation thing to dance around for hours without any action. Circumstance and relevance is what makes things canonical to me, not explainations. Oh and on a random note, no, i don't see the RSI pills as canon either, merely another game convention. Heck, I continue to hope they never get used in the official story.

Papergh0st wrote:

you can kill him with a broom though, which is pretty awesome.

You can kill that guy? =P
But meh, most people arn't getting the points im trying to get across and are instead warping them to present me as some sort of, oh how i love this term (been branded several times), Canon Nazi.
Maybe the nature of this game's storyline needs to be better described on the website when the guide finally gets done.
I've made all the points i want to make to the people i want to make them to so yeah, theres no point going on, we can leave it now.
And for whats its worth FF, thanks. Oh and PB too for keeping it cool.

OOC:
This canon argument (going all the way back to the "pew-pew" thing) is not about people's ideas of what can and can't happen in the Matrix. Such an argument would be asinine, because the Matrix is a computer simulation - ANYTHING can happen.

The heart of the issue is internal consistency. If it is perceived that an action in the game storyline, regardless of how outlandish, has appropriate repercussions and consequences in the subsequent storyline, then it fits all criteria for becoming a part of the canon storyline. This is why the arguments against "pew-pew" had little merit outside of personal taste. However if an action carries no consequences and doesn't affect the storyline to follow, the natural inclination is to separate it from the rest of the story in someway, either in the unofficial archives or just in the minds of the players.

CloudWolf, I don't think you're a canon Nazi, I think you make a lot of sense, and your best point is right up there. Seeing a dancing subway car would definitely break a bluepill's mind, making it something the machines would take immediate action on. That didn't happen, detracting from the internal consistency of the world.

What CloudWolf is asking for is a "heads-up" from Rarebit regarding where individual events fall from these two choices. Will future storyline be affected or not? Will the events depicted carry the repercussions expected in an internally consistent living simulation (e.g. the dancing subway car being killed by an Agent and ejected from the simulation)?

It's obvious that Rarebit doesn't feel the need to give such a "heads-up" simply because the events speak for themselves. I see where he's coming from to a certain extent, but I'm on the fence about this one. In any case, I think this issue has run it's course in this thread and we should get back to talking about how cool Effy is and save the canon rag for another day.

#36300195636 03/24/2007 10:46:22 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I play a video game for fun. That one effectuator party I was at was loads of fun, and I can only guess how much fun the guys who turned into trains or terminals had.

You *CENSORED* and you *CENSORED* for live events after SOE took over, and when Rarebit does this kind of stuff, you *CENSORED* some more. If Rarebit was like a normal dev, he would have stopped having "fun" events long ago, not give rewards to players because it's 'non-canonical' or whatever, and then people would quit the game due to heavy scripted events.

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon, or getting a killshot on a machinist sneaking into a meeting and having Persephone reward me with a kiss, or a hug, or maybe even some info. We influence the story, if only that much. By showing our amusement for these kind of parties, Rarebit keeps doing them. If you have a problem with these kinds of things, I humbly ask you jack out everytime Rarebit jacks in.

Thankfully we have Rarebit who, in a respectful way I say this, is the most abnormal and fun dev I've ever talked with in ANY game or MMO.

#36300195643 03/24/2007 10:53:48 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Roukan wrote:

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon

Me too - cept he wouldn't do a pigeon, despite my spam. lol.

Thats one of the points i raised above though. Twisting one's meaning to present falsehood.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195644 03/24/2007 10:56:13 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

cloudwolf wrote:

Roukan wrote:

I like the idea of being able to jack in, run into the effectuator and get turned into a pigeon

Me too - cept he wouldn't do a pigeon, despite my spam. lol.
Thats one of the points i raised above though. Twisting one's meaning to present falsehood.

So you're complaining that because it's in the middle of the chapter we're in, and that Rarebit turned people into trains and the like... it shouldn't say it's in the middle of the chapter?

#36300195655 03/24/2007 11:04:03 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Thats another point i wanted to touch on but refrained since i said i wouldnt go on anymore =P

I think i misunderstood the concept of the chapter tags. I always took, as they were suggested by players, to be to help with storyline archiving efforts. For reference and back searching. Not timestamping. I mean, one would think thats what the dates are for =P

Thus i took anything with a chapter stamp to imply storyline relevance ( and thus... 'canon' ).

But it seems they are in fact just for timestamps and nothing else. Something that wasn't explained to me. That isn't explained anywhere. Maybe something else for the site guide?

With this revelation i suggested a new stamp for such blatantly unrelational "non-canonical" fun events marking them as such. Like Wendigo explained quite nicely. Also, i expressed a want for the nature of the storyline to explained better for potential and current players alike in the website guide. Since the 'official-ness' of the game's events is a serious issue for potential players and the 'outside' world looking in on MxO.

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195664 03/24/2007 11:23:53 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Hey, maybe Rare should write up a forum sticky for the LE board explaining the nature of live events, how they tie in with the story, how they come about, lesig, the thread posting conventions. All that stuff.

Because they're all kinda vital things for people to know and understand and the more i think about it, they're not actually explained anywhere properly.

And i sure as hell don't have my hopes up for the website *shakes fist at soe web team*

SkyJackal's MxO Video Collection

#36300195670 03/24/2007 11:36:17 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Personaly this was a player event, that suddenly got LE status.. totaly wrong in my opinion. But meh

#36300195677 03/24/2007 11:46:41 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

FlaminMathew1 wrote:

Personaly this was a player event, that suddenly got LE status.. totaly wrong in my opinion. But meh

i quite liked the idea of a player generated event taking on a live event role. isn't that what people cry out for here? more stuff done by the players themselves that actually has some significance in some way to the game as a whole? the fact that a dev was able to turn up to a player driven party....which, as cool as it would have been, would still ultimately have been (and no offence to the party organiser guys here)....another mxo party....and turned it into a live event on the fly is pretty awesome.

plus, it wasn't entirely "out of the blue". remember, the party organisers mentioned a "special guest" would likely be turning up so they must have had some sort of idea that something was going to go down. i bet they're pretty pleased that their party ended up being one of THE most memorable parties anyone's ever been to AND got turned into a live event at the same time. it simply provides an incentive for the players who organise these things to keep on doing these events / parties / whatever further down the line, and is a nice reward for anyone who spent the time putting this party together in the first place.

i dunno....this event says to me that if someone holds an event, or does something ingame thats player generated yet holds enough pulling power, then a dev might get involved (time willing) and make it into something bigger than it was originally. with the onset of the all new and improved LESIG team, this is an even more interesting development.

aside from all of the above, i quite liked the humour in filling debir court with an army of clones.

#36300195681 03/24/2007 11:49:40 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Papergh0st wrote:

FlaminMathew1 wrote:
Personaly this was a player event, that suddenly got LE status.. totaly wrong in my opinion. But meh

i quite liked the idea of a player generated event taking on a live event role. isn't that what people cry out for here? more stuff done by the players themselves that actually has some significance in some way to the game as a whole? the fact that a dev was able to turn up to a player driven party....which, as cool as it would have been, would still ultimately have been (and no offence to the party organiser guys here)....another mxo party....and turned it into a live event on the fly is pretty awesome.

plus, it wasn't entirely "out of the blue". remember, the party organisers mentioned a "special guest" would likely be turning up so they must have had some sort of idea that something was going to go down. i bet they're pretty pleased that their party ended up being one of THE most memorable parties anyone's ever been to AND got turned into a live event at the same time. it simply provides an incentive for the players who organise these things to keep on doing these events / parties / whatever further down the line, and is a nice reward for anyone who spent the time putting this party together in the first place.

i dunno....this event says to me that if someone holds an event, or does something ingame thats player generated yet holds enough pulling power, then a dev might get involved (time willing) and make it into something bigger than it was originally. with the onset of the all new and improved LESIG team, this is an even more interesting development.

aside from all of the above, i quite liked the humour in filling debir court with an army of clones.

Im not even gonna carry the convo on cos itl just get me in trouble.

#36300195686 03/24/2007 11:57:50 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

FlaminMathew1 wrote:

Personaly this was a player event, that suddenly got LE status.. totaly wrong in my opinion. But meh

Add this to the list of 'Player/LEs'

I'll stress it again: Anniversary. Anniversary. Anniversary.

#36300195689 03/24/2007 12:02:19 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

PBlade wrote:

FlaminMathew1 wrote:
Personaly this was a player event, that suddenly got LE status.. totaly wrong in my opinion. But meh

Add this to the list of 'Player/LEs'

I'll stress it again: Anniversary. Anniversary. Anniversary.

Dont start me off! I know what my opinion is on this!

#36300195714 03/24/2007 13:07:28 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Well Folks,

I gotta say that I throughly enjoyed that party. Thanks to the guys for organising it.

Best laugh I've had since I met the Oracle!

Cheers

RedPillRunner - A Red Pill Blog

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"The Matrix Online :- For People who think reality sucks!"

#36300195726 03/24/2007 13:19:46 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I always miss the cool parties where people get turned into inanimate objects like HLs and katanas.

#36300195735 03/24/2007 13:33:14 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

That was a cool party, I was a DJ, in the dress.

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#36300195781 03/24/2007 14:56:39 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

@Paperghost

Such obsession is certainly funny, but I don't like how you use these extremes to mock a serious attitude to a fictional universe.
"Just a game", "just disposable entertainment" - nice, really. I mean, that's nice, if so.

But I also think serious fiction and people's perception of fiction as some sort of alternate reality they take seriously shouldn't be dismissed as "fanboy obsession".

Immersion into fictional universes/stories is serious business. If you have some fiction that is written seriously and perceived seriously, like dunno, Tolkien or something, and someone messes with it (and I don't mean an innocent parody), I totally understand if fans get disgusted, and I find it right.

The Matrix is one of the more serious franchises out there, don't you think? Why shouldn't fans be aggravated if someone messes with it? Geez.

I haven't read the comics, and I haven't played PoN. I've always wanted to catch up on it, but now I've started doubting. I really thought PoN was a serious extension of the Matrix universe, with alternate storylines and stuff. I had heard of an alternate ending, and thought it would really be something impressive and revealing.
But hey, if the Wachowskis just wanted to fool about a little, then it wasn't.
Funny.
But hey, now I have more pocket money for a double bass machine SMILEY

Zampano wrote:
"Reloaded had a Cave Rave scene, why is this any different?"

Great introduction line to my next point. When seeing that scene for the first time, I was really quite shocked to the degree that I hoped it would be edited out for the DVD. No, seriously. I so didn't want to have it in the Matrix series.

I don't think this is a question of "canon", it's a question of style. You don't like something stylistically, and want to remove it from canon.
But I think this doesn't make sense.

It's more logical to decide not to like something about this game or its story rather than trying to delete it from canon - although I understand you, I think this isn't rational.

From a rational point of view, there's nothing wrong about this. The only question is style and taste, because some people can't stand funny parties in the Matrix. But people couldn't and can't stand lots of other stuff, aswell. In the movies, and the game.

Personally, I don't find this event so awful. I've never had problems with the Assassin breed or Unlimit powers, but a part of me doesn't like the overkill of "funny" humor, or certain types of it, aswell. A part of me has certain problems with the Effectuator, aswell.
Basically, I agree with the arguments of this event's defenders, what happened here is nothing especially bad. I also think people overreacted at the Pace dueling event, by the way.

Bluepills seeing dancing cars - yea. Since when does the game seriously deal with this? Bluepills are client-side NPCs, it's so hard to consider them all the time. Even if it's wrong, that's how serious and truly official events have been since launch.
This might be an argument against the whole event system, but not this particular event.

Rarebit wrote:
1) Bit of trivia. Do you know how many times I remember hearing Paul or any of our past writers or designers mention the word "canon"? Exactly none. Zero. Never. As far as I can tell, that is not a word used by people who are actually involved in the creative process; it is used by observers who come along later and want to categorize things into neat little boxes for themselves. You will not find me referring to things as "canon" or "non-canon," because I don't acknowledge such conveniences as relevant.

Ok, I disagree with this. A fictional universe becomes real, in our mindz. It totally makes sense to decide what belongs in it and what doesn't, if you take it seriously - for the writer, not the audience. Unless you decide everything does, then it becomes nonsensical to put things into categories, you're right.

As I said, labelling stuff as canon and non-canon because of disliking is wrong imo.

But do you consider all redpills running all organizations' missions, or player movies on big screens to be "part of the universe/story"? This is the question of canon. It's an existent, relevant question.

Rarebit wrote:
This is not a movie, it is a game, and except for cinematics and missions, the story is to a large degree unscripted.

Unscripted? Scripted? You and Chadwick write cinematics for a year ahead. You write subchapter missions and plan some events for a subchapter ahead. You organize some events for a day ahead. You improvize things at place.
So yea, you have an outline and certain story elements for some time ahead, and other elements or details for a smaller time, or more spontanous.

What does that have to do with everything? Events tell the story, missions do, cinematics do. Why is any of them less serious than the other? By the way, the Effectuator mentioned one of his parties in a mission. =ppp

2) If a story was so weak that it couldn't withstand an innocent party possibly involving dancing subway cars, would it really be worth defending? Note that I will be very defensive of our story. :ppp

The point (not necessarily my point, but one I can understand) is that this very stuff damages the story quality. If the rest is so strong, which is currently my opinion, the better for the whole I guess.

3) Seeing as how you have made it clear that you aren't fond of the flame virus effect, or of mixing critical missions/events with the relatively unscheduled insanity of the large annual events, you may just want to kind of look away during the whole ten days or whatever it is exactly of the upcoming Anniversary event...

Flame virus - just a chapter reward that didn't perfectly fit to the chapter. Nothing serious, and off-topic anyway.

Why look away in these ten days if you get similar Effy parties at other times, within chapters? I mean, helicopter anyone? I guess I'll now look away from all Seraph/General events for the ten days? I don't get it.

#36300195784 03/24/2007 15:05:53 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Oh, and yea - the chapter tags.

A totally different question. To emphasize once more, the question of how relevant something is to the current storyline is not the question of "canon".

When the Sculptress appeared some time ago, it was canon, and in this sense, not less than this one. It didn't progress anything, yet it had a chapter tag. Made sense to me.

#36300195797 03/24/2007 16:02:11 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Desc1ple wrote:

I always miss the cool parties where people get turned into inanimate objects like HLs and katanas.

and computer termianls ..cant forgeth the terminals :p

#36300195798 03/24/2007 16:02:13 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

zeroone506 wrote:

@Paperghost

Such obsession is certainly funny, but I don't like how you use these extremes to mock a serious attitude to a fictional universe.
"Just a game", "just disposable entertainment" - nice, really. I mean, that's nice, if so.

But I also think serious fiction and people's perception of fiction as some sort of alternate reality they take seriously shouldn't be dismissed as "fanboy obsession".

Immersion into fictional universes/stories is serious business. If you have some fiction that is written seriously and perceived seriously, like dunno, Tolkien or something, and someone messes with it (and I don't mean an innocent parody), I totally understand if fans get disgusted, and I find it right.

The Matrix is one of the more serious franchises out there, don't you think? Why shouldn't fans be aggravated if someone messes with it? Geez.

I haven't read the comics, and I haven't played PoN. I've always wanted to catch up on it, but now I've started doubting. I really thought PoN was a serious extension of the Matrix universe, with alternate storylines and stuff. I had heard of an alternate ending, and thought it would really be something impressive and revealing.
But hey, if the Wachowskis just wanted to fool about a little, then it wasn't.
Funny.
But hey, now I have more pocket money for a double bass machine

its the obsession with it having to be "serious" - how many times to do you mention "serious" above? - like that adds any additional weight or meaning, through being "serious" in and of itself - that I will continue to relentlessly mock when it manifests itself in the most ludicrous forms. does it make something more useful, or worthy, or important, if we treat it more "seriously" and make sagely noises around it while rubbing our chins and putting on our best "serious face" because we think the object in question deserves our serious face?

meh, forget that. i had enough of that kind of thing in art school and you know what it produced? bad, pretentious art that sucked. if someone wants to mess with something, and not in a parody fashion, but in a "let's see what kind of damage we can do to this one" fashion then great. go nuts, smash it down, tear it up and come up with whatever you come up with. it might be great, or it might suck, but if you hold back because you don't want to treat the source material "irreverently" or fast and loose, you're probably limiting the scope of whatever it was you were attempting to come up with in the first place.

"The Matrix is one of the more serious franchises out there, don't you think?"

why? serious how?

the films seem fairly laced with parody and humour themselves. are those moments of humour, parody and wit - some of the best moments in the films - to be lost in the more worthy sea of seriousness because thats more important?

theres a huge difference between someone who appreciates a work of art on all its different levels, its flaws, its strengths and everything that makes it what it is, and those who will stab you in the face because you pronounced Jar Jar Binks name wrong. the endless, rolling flames of hell await those people. i will be there to jab them with pitchforks.

its not some worthy, self righteous, second coming we're discussing here anyway. we're discussing a bunch of films - the first of which is awesome, yet still full of problems - the second two, less so and i fear the years will not be kind to the third.

a bunch of films that the creators themselves happily reserve the right to mock as and when necessary - if they can do it, why can't we? it doesn't diminish the film in question. in fact, if it survives the beating it comes out stronger. but really, i've dealt with hardcore matrix nerds, and hardcore comic nerds - now THERE'S a challenge - who will rant and rave over THE most ludicrous details that ultimately just dont matter one bit.

" But hey, if the Wachowskis just wanted to fool about a little, then it wasn't.
Funny."

why? how can you base a judgement on how it "wasn't funny" (in the context of what you're playing, and how it relates to the fanboy explosion of rage that became evident in many places once people started to complete the game) when you haven't even played it other than what you've read about it? sorry man, if you played it through when it came out, while aware of the crazed levels of fanboy excitement surrounding what could possibly be in the ending, then you will have got it, and you will have laughed.

it seems to me to be a case of, oh my! how DARE those horrible W bros do this to their own film! how dare they insult it in this manner!!

......i mean, whatever. if the creators can razz their film in any way they see fit, why can't I? if they wish to poke fun at the dangerous levels of fanboyism regarding their product, why can't I?

my example about the PoN game isn't some sweeping statement about anybody and everybody anyway - its a specific reference based on actual experience revolving around a specific group of people that took things way, way too far with regards what they thought the ending of that game would entail. if they happen to look upon these posts now and don't like my attitude towards them and how I laughed my socks off at that ending, well, its too bad for them. they pretty much wandered into a self fulfilling prophecy.

you...or I....or especially the creators....can do whatever they feel like with it. nothing is above poking fun of, and we shouldn't treat any sort of art as any sort of "holy relic". Its funny you mention Tolkien, because thats one of the best examples of rampant, laughable fanboyism I could think of. How badly did many of the obsessives want to hate peter jacksons interpretation of the books before they'd even seen it? how sweet was their begrudging admissions across forums worldwide that, actually, he'd done a pretty *CENSORED* fine job of it overall?

its the same idiocy that springs up surrounding comic films (omg xmen in some black leather stuff!! i want yellow and blue NOW!) or endlessly arguing over "who shot first" in star wars or writing a philosophical treatise on the origins of Hawkman and how the numerous chronological inconsistencies and continuity flaws can be explained away by mathematical equations.

ultimately, life rumbles on and nobody much cares for their mathematical equations of hawkman and their model diaromas of han solo shooting greedo. especially when those things are then jammed down your throat a mile a minute, every single time discussion of said products containing those things springs up. jammed down your throat, i might add, with the most stinkingly poor attitude available based on no logic but lots of "passion" - SMILEY

- that you could imagine, and no reason will be listened to.

a fictional universe is nice, but thats all it is and once i'm doing doing whatever i'm doing it with, bam, i'm back in this one and i don't care about it anymore. all art is entirely disposable, and nobody should take it so seriously...especially when it was created by someone else...that they can't step back and laugh at the absurdity of attempting to treat it as something more than it is and become obsessed with the smallest, irrelevant details to the point of pointlessness.

i think it was phillip k d_ck, or maybe another writer, who (at a convention) had someone come up and engage him in an hour long conversation about how some piece of technology couldn't ever work in the 25th century to power some device as part of a larger scheme in one of his books (or something), because the power source he cited wouldn't work with the materials he mentioned in the story.

eventually, he turned to him and said, "we make it all up out of our heads, you know".

someone should make a hundred mile-high sculpture of that moment, encase it in solid gold and stick it on a satellite orbiting the earth so i can point to it every time the situation calls for it.

#36300195824 03/24/2007 17:07:25 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Hmm, just as a side note before we all go back to watching this ever intreguing "Canon" debate...the people who constantly spammed area chat with "zomg turn me into *insert model*" obviously didn't realise the only changing Rarebit was going was changing people into things he was dropping hints and questions about that he was thinking of.

#36300195825 03/24/2007 17:10:14 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

FlaminMathew1 wrote:

I got to be the only Effy clone!! Woot!!

Wouldn't have happend if it was a player event, can't have it both ways.

#36300195831 03/24/2007 17:22:56 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Yasamuu1 wrote:

FlaminMathew1 wrote:
I got to be the only Effy clone!! Woot!!

Wouldn't have happend if it was a player event, can't have it both ways.

It was a player event...just turned to a live one

#36300195833 03/24/2007 17:23:30 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Yasamuu1 wrote:

Hmm, just as a side note before we all go back to watching this ever intreguing "Canon" debate...the people who constantly spammed area chat with "zomg turn me into *insert model*" obviously didn't realise the only changing Rarebit was going was changing people into things he was dropping hints and questions about that he was thinking of.

i caught on half way into it, it was hard to see tru all the spam. ignore FTW?

#36300195838 03/24/2007 17:33:20 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Lol i just turned up, he saw my long name of my alt, and went "*CENSORED*" thats a long name and choosed me to be him! It was pretty kool

#36300195840 03/24/2007 17:36:46 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

There's a lot that goes on in the code that bluepills simply don't see...just like there's a lot that goes on that even operatives won't bother examining for themselves.

I realize that some people have different attitudes toward movie, comic book, story, and game history than I do. I tend not to put things up on much of a pedestal. They have to stand for themselves on their own merits. What happens to one does not necessarily tar or glorify the others. If you insist on too rigid a structure, it will inevitably fall apart under scrutiny (uh-oh, now I'm cribbing from Ookami). There are many events that I specifically planned in advance as part of the storyline, that in coming around to summarizing the chapter afterwards, I would not mention for one reason or another. On the other hand, there are many events that had no advance planning that I would end up including. But that, again, is my opinion. I happen to have the privilege of being the official game designer, but come on, folks--be your own designers. Everything that happens is a part of your story--keep it or discard it as you see fit. Come up with your own theories to explain how things fit together. I guarantee you that you'll enjoy it more that way.

As the Oracle said to Neo: "You just have to make up your own *CENSORED* mind to either accept what I'm going to tell you, or reject it."

(That was a test, of course, and if he'd rejected it, he'd have been wrong--and the Oracle would have been wrong about him. Mwahaha! Okay, I'm done now I think.)

EDIT: (Whoops, no I'm not. 'Cause there's really no "wrong" about a position you take, except relative to what other people think, or to what you yourself thought previously, or come to think later. If he'd rejected what the Oracle told him, the Matrix might have been taken over by Smith...but would that really have been so very wrong?)

#36300195845 03/24/2007 17:47:24 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

FlaminMathew1 wrote:

Yasamuu1 wrote:
FlaminMathew1 wrote:
I got to be the only Effy clone!! Woot!!

Wouldn't have happend if it was a player event, can't have it both ways.
It was a player event...just turned to a live one

I'd imagine that it was pre-planned. You have to ask permission for people to show at parties of this scale. Rarebit doesn't always say yes--in fact, I'd imagine he says no more often than not, but he doesn't just 'arrive' out of the blue and make them Live Events.

#36300195847 03/24/2007 17:51:41 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

PBlade wrote:

FlaminMathew1 wrote:
Yasamuu1 wrote:
FlaminMathew1 wrote:
I got to be the only Effy clone!! Woot!!

Wouldn't have happend if it was a player event, can't have it both ways.
It was a player event...just turned to a live one

It was pre-planned. You have to ask permission for people to show at parties of this scale. Rarebit doesn't always say yes, but he doesn't just 'arrive' and make them Live Events.

My thoughts on the matter stand.

#36300195850 03/24/2007 17:53:42 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

Well, as long as you have the moral highgrond there, what can I, a mere mortal do...

#36300195851 03/24/2007 17:54:22 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

PBlade wrote:

Well, as long as you have the moral highgrond there, what can I, a mere mortal do...

As i say to people, its my opinion!

#36300195854 03/24/2007 17:56:29 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

I am what I am...
And what I am... Needs no excuses...
*Insert rest of song*

#36300195856 03/24/2007 17:57:27 Re:[7.1.3] Okay, we're gonna make some DJs - Syntax - 3/22/07

PBlade wrote:

I am what I am...
And what I am... Needs no excuses...
*Insert rest of song*

Hmm ive heard this some place else today ... SMILEY