The Feasability of Reinsertion

I think it's largely a pointless endeavor. Most of us rejected the simulation naturally, and if we went back, it stands to reason that we'd eventually do so again.

As for those who were forcefully awakened or began to question due to unfortunate accidents, it might be a different story.

The intire thing can be summed up in one word "Risk"

What always buged me the most whne i was a cyph and now when talking IC to em is that it never got past, "We fly 01 and we go to sleep" most fo the time. When you asked "But we rejected it how can we go back to sleep" its just ignored.

So my guess is that if you are apart of the 1% that rejects the simulation your screwed. Your just going to wake up again but the date is unknown. A complet memory swipe may do the trick but I think the subconcious(sp?) choice is more embedded in your mind then just a memory. Which leads me further to believe that they never intended to reinsurt Cypher in the first movie because they know he was just going to wake up again. But now however with the rapid increases in awakenings they take everything they can get when it comes to going back 1% or not.

There is also a few insteresting bluepills that pop up in missions. The one that I remember best is in chpt 1 i think and its an ex Zion op that retired and now is back in her pod liveing her life but still remembers everything from back when she was awake. Which may be an alternitive for those that did reject the system and helps keep threw from fully wakeing up

For a code bomb vic or something simular however I think the process is much easier and they are more able to be reinserted and it is basicly "Fly to 01 and go to sleep"

As I see it, personally,

I live and die for this simulation cus in my eyes its an integral part of the symbiosis between humans and machines, and one of the cornerstones in the continuation of the worlds existens and a way for the human race to repent there wrongdoings against the machines.

as for reinsertion, I dont personally think i ever will be able to get to that state, I hope and dream about it, but iam aware of the fact that already have rejected it, and might do it again if i ever was reinserted, so my struggle as a cypherite is more for the people that still is in the simulation and aid the machines in maintaining the symbiosis, also try and minimise the forced wake ups thats occuring.

but i only speak for myself.

/cheers

The intire thing can be summed up in one word "Risk"

What always buged me the most whne i was a cyph and now when talking IC to em is that it never got past, "We fly 01 and we go to sleep" most fo the time. When you asked "But we rejected it how can we go back to sleep" its just ignored.

So my guess is that if you are apart of the 1% that rejects the simulation your screwed. Your just going to wake up again but the date is unknown. A complet memory swipe may do the trick but I think the subconcious(sp?) choice is more embedded in your mind then just a memory. Which leads me further to believe that they never intended to reinsurt Cypher in the first movie because they know he was just going to wake up again. But now however with the rapid increases in awakenings they take everything they can get when it comes to going back 1% or not.

There is also a few insteresting bluepills that pop up in missions. The one that I remember best is in chpt 1 i think and its an ex Zion op that retired and now is back in her pod liveing her life but still remembers everything from back when she was awake. Which may be an alternitive for those that did reject the system and helps keep threw from fully wakeing up

For a code bomb vic or something simular however I think the process is much easier and they are more able to be reinserted and it is basicly "Fly to 01 and go to sleep"

Hmm, I remember there being a thread about this not to long ago on the Matrix Universe board. I don't think we were able to work anything out; it ended up (like so many other things here) as a "play it how you want to" kind of deal.

I would give the standard "that's the problem with science fiction" response except for one thing: it could further the story to greater heights. For example, in Star Trek canon, the original series was very vague about how warp drive worked. Something about antimatter. . .and crystals. . . Flash forward to the Next Gen series, and you have entire episodes of the show devoted to different aspects of the warp drive, and it even becomes a major plot breaker in the movies.

So, making sense of something like this that is certainly canon for our MxO universe should prove to be worthwhile.

For my two cents, re-insertion is a matter of re-implanting yourself into a Matrix that has, in essence, gone on without you. Or forgotten about you. Or whatever your story is. The procedure would look something like this:

• Do you wish to be re-inserted, y/n?

"Fine, here's a blue pill"

• Do you wish to remember your time Awake, y/n?

"We think that's for the best"

• Do you wish to return to your old life, y/n?

"Great! Aunt Molly will be so happy to see you"

• If starting a new life, what profession would you like?

"Doctor or teacher?"

Of course, there would be much more to it than that. I think you would have to have a hair removal process, and don't forget that many of the plugs for intravenous feeding, etc are removed after you're Awakened (at least, they were on Neo). In fact, I imagine the whole process to be a lot more traumatic than most people realize when they 'sign up' for it. Maybe the Machines should now have a Reinsertion Processing Center?

Hmm, I see a new story coming on. . .

Not to mention the fact that it's pretty much sci-fi canon that screwing around with people's memories usually tends to have disastrous effects; memory 'ricochets' that cause madness, total memory failure, total recall, recall ending in catatonia, the list is endless.

You go by the principal that the same 1% always will reject the system.
This is not true because you don't understand where the 1% comes from, or that you have a different view of where the 1% comes from.
The Architect said they gave choice to their bluepills to save more crops (sp?). Instead of losing entire crops they now lost only 1%. So who's responsible for the 1%? The Machines. They already know who will reject the system. The Machines are the ones responsible for your character/charisma/personality, etc.
Neo: "I've got all these memories from my life. Are you saying none of that was real?" - The Machines guide the bluepills through their lives, not yourself. Thus, if you get reinserted and you forget 'everything' you will have a new life, without the risk of being awakened.
Choice is the problem. Computers work with choice all the time: 0 & 1. A computer doesn't know anymore than to turn something on or off. To control humans they have to give them choice: Shall I go left, or right? Shall I go to work today or not? Shall I kiss her, or must I wait? If-then-else is the most used command in any script: If I not kiss her then 'something else'. etc. etc. If not 0 then else = 1. With this logic it's safe to say that the bluepills lives are controlled by the Machines and that their personalities, which are formed by choice, are thus formed by the Machines.
So all in all, when you get reinserted a complete memory whipe is a must. For your old life was part of the 1% that the Machines decided to set free.

That's how I think about it anyway. Now for the truth
The Machines are honest. If they say they do something, they do it. Simple as that. They won't tell us reinsertion isn't possible when it isn't. The Architect: "What do you think I am? Human?"

The whole process of reinsertion...I have no clue on how it works. You call an agent, they sent a Sentinel to fly you to the fields, find an empty pod and plug you back in. That's the idea I got from the first movie anyway. How the plugging in works? No idea. We also don't know how babies are grown. This is a part of the Matrix that's nowhere explained.

If reinsertion wouldn't be possible why would they introduce Cypherites as an org? How 'bout the Machines introduction mission, where you get to reinsert a redpill? That's pretty canonical I say.

So it's possible because it's in game.

I approached the idea of re-insertion just briefly in the last story that I wrote, actually.  In my story, an EPN Captain decides that he's had enough and wants to be re-inserted into the Matrix.  The Machines have possession of his body, but he's not plugged back into the pod system yet.  They're modifying his memories, one by one.  They're using information that is real, and just putting the "correct" spin on it.

 After all, half-truthes are easier to believe than whole lies.  As far as the EPN Captain knows, he was a liutenant in a terrorist cell operating within the Mega City.  Some unknown(to us/me, since I didn't explore it) incident made him re-think his way of life, turn hismelf over to the authorities, testify against his fellow terrorists, and enter the Witness Protection Program where he gets a new identity, home, and life.  This fits everything he knows is "true."  He was a terrorist, he changed his mind, gave all the information he knew about EPN's activities to the Machines, and was re-inserted into bluepill life.

I don't think it's possible for someone to go back to their old life.  After all, in my idea of the Matrix, when a redpill is extracted... he is forgotten by anyone and everyone who ever knew him.  As far as the bluepill population is concerned, Mr. Anderson didn't exist after he was pulled out of the Matrix.  This could be due to a massive memory wipe(which I don't think is feasible on a large scale), or the Machines simply explaining away his disappearance with a story of his murder or something as such.  And to have someone everyone believed was murdered pop back into their lifes would be a huge "ERRRT DOES NOT COMPUTE."

 Just my thoughts.

My 2 cents:

Reinsertion should be rather simple.  the body is returned to the plant, its taken to a pod and reattached to the power system.  This will involve re-fitting the ports (Zion seems to remove as many of the components as possible during awakening), re-inserting the plugs and cables.  Naturally the body will atrophy again and all hair will either be removed or will fall off.

The only thing we aren't sure of is how the mind is handled.  In MXO, I have ran across mission NPCs who were former redpills, now living as coppertops again.  They were level 1 and harmless.  Yet, they still remembered everything.

Which makes me believe that perhaps the machines do not manipulate the mind if the person is willing to go back to the system.  In the case of a cypherite, I beleive that they may love the system so much that even knowing its fake, they can adapt.  In Cypher's case himself, I believe that possibly he didn't want to remember killing nearly his whole crew to get back in.  I think that despite his selfishness, he liked his comrades in some shape or form.

In any event, as a machinist, I know that the system has a process of re-insertion.  I've escorted many to those locations myself.  It's something they wanted to do, so I helped facilitate that desire.

I don't think it's possible for someone to go back to their old life.  After all, in my idea of the Matrix, when a redpill is extracted... he is forgotten by anyone and everyone who ever knew him.  As far as the bluepill population is concerned, Mr. Anderson didn't exist after he was pulled out of the Matrix.  This could be due to a massive memory wipe(which I don't think is feasible on a large scale), or the Machines simply explaining away his disappearance with a story of his murder or something as such.  And to have someone everyone believed was murdered pop back into their lifes would be a huge "ERRRT DOES NOT COMPUTE."

 Just my thoughts.

Depending on whether they accept their old life or wish for a new life changes alot. For a new life, things have to be changed in the brain. I don't think it's as hard as you think - we, simple humans with a few computers, can change what we know - I reckon the Machines, in their technology, know how to alter memories. Probably still a little bit nasty, but they'll probably delete your memories of the pain.



As for those going back to their old lives, I again think it's easier than you think. No-one 'forgets' about awakened people. You have to understand, that 1% who reject the system would likely have done it for most of their lives. Most would be outcasts, and most wouldn't really aspire to much within the Matrix, so would be unimportant. Most would become recluse, and would seemingly just 'drop off' the face of the planet.

There is no question in my mind that if we accept it is possible to extract someone from the matrix (a place they have spent the vast majority of their time) re-insertion has to be equally possible. Indeed as a redpill we already undergo a good proportion of that process and dismiss it as routine. Psychologically there are issues, but again the fact that until the EJP arrived even hardcore redpills could be killed by the events inside the matrix (which they more than any bluepill know to be what they are) demonstrates an immense ability of the simulation to convince its reality.

The extraction is supposedly an element of choice, if your choice is to accept the simulation even after knowing of its nature again I would have to say its logical to be able to lose yourself within once reinserted.

As to the relative merits or value of reinsertion, ebnergy cannot be created or destroyed, the creation/birthing process has to involve an input of energy disproportionate to the rest of its life. At the same time the young body expends energy on growth (even in the pods this is seen to be the case by Neo's adult body etc), so the energy value or output of a full grown human has to be greater than starting from scratch.

Given the delvelopment process that almost has to have occurred to arrive at this type of power source, at some point reinsertions have to have taken place.

Can machines lie..... well to a degree they must, but it will be a devastatingly dissapoining aspect of mxo if all we end up doing is making mechs behave identically to their human counterparts with exactly the same stregths and weaknesses (though I would lay that criticism of 90% of Sci-Fi)

Fatmop wrote:

perplexus wrote:

Perhaps the problem is controlling the human soul, not memories and synapses.

If caged at birth (i.e. the soul knows nothing apart from what it's always experienced) then no problem.
But once freed, trying to re-insert that soul is perhaps trickier than.. well, herding cats?

I used the term soul as opposed to subconscious thought or other term relating to memory as it's a very difficult thing to quantify, and pretty much highlights the problem the discussion faces when trying to determine whether re-insertion is possible or whether it is all a lie.

Come back when you have a concrete idea.

A concrete idea? You mean like a concrete theory? For something that ultimately cannot be proven one way or another?
Momma says not to reply to trolls, but where's the fun in that?

A faction mate of mine wrote an RP in which he was re-inserted and then, subsequently, removed from the simulation because he saw things and people he remembered (such as me, with my hideous facial tatoos etc..) and even Cypher in the move stressed that he wants to remember "Nothing, d'ya hear me? Nothing!" So I think he's as fully aware of the risks of it.

I think the human mind being the way it is, to totally forget something, or to have it actually erased from our minds, is something even the Machines can't fathom or accomodate.

the idea had merrit but as many of us always pointed out to the 1% it was impossible. The mind subconsciously for whatever reason sees the world around it as flawed. This is the mindset and choice that every person of the 1% has made. They have figuratively taken the red pill at this point. This creates the unrest that most feel, the insomnia, visions, the search for the truth and so on. There mind is now working off that subliminal choice and its trying to find out why it thinks the way it does. The awakening procedure is just that. It is the expatiation for the why. In simpler form. You see candy, your mind tells you to take it and eat it so you do. The reason why you ate it is because you like candy.

The only way to diminish this impulse is to overwrite it consciously. To know that you don't want to wake up and that despite how much the world around you isn't real it is still better then what is waiting in the real. However if your memory has been erased then it doesn't know that. All it knows is what its subconscious tells it and it follows that. Again, you see candy but you know it can rot your teach so you don't eat it. If you didn't know it would rot your teeth then you would have still eaten it.

Thus reinsurtion after a memory wipe is impossible.

I do not believe that it is phsically possible for someone to return to the matrix. Zionist operatives seem to be very careful in taking out every bit of machinary out of the body. Now it has been proven that the human body is more flexable and can "bounce" back at a younger age then an older body. It is likely that an adult human body could not survive the strain that there would be with the "re installation" of all the hardware the machines would need to put in

The humans who lost the war had to have that same machinery put into their bodies, to hook them into the original Matrix.  There's no reason it couldn't be put back into a redpill's body.  Also, one of the Syntax Machine liaisons is supposed to be hooked into a pod in the Machine City, is he not?  That would mean the machinery within him had been reinstalled.

But the problem that I like to point out to the Cypherites remains...if you rejected the simulation before, you're likely to reject it again.   

Illyria

Also, one of the Syntax Machine liaisons is supposed to be hooked into a pod in the Machine City, is he not?

((If its any consolation, i completed a mission earlier for the machines. Here i met a zionist who was wanting reinsertion. Upon which he was led  to an Agent who reprocessed him for reinsertion to the matrix.))

I thought it appropriate to post this on the general discussion board, as the concept of reinsertion appears to relate more to MxO than the movie trilogy.

I wanted to ask a philosophical question on the concept of re-entering the Matrix from a redpill perspective. I know many have described the process as simply flying to 01, getting plugged in and waking up as a bluepill. Personally, I would think that once a person has knowledge of what the Matrix is, there would need to be a massive, painful, sometimes fatal procedure to get the body, and the mind(most importantly) to accept the simulation in the same way again. I think the concepts of extraction/reinsertion get watered down as we don't physically see it happen with game mechanics and all - especially the reinsertion bit. With that said, I'd like to see some of your thoughts on the process and the reason.