Is it better to know?

Let's say you decided that Redpill life was too dangerous, boring, cold, whatever, and went to the Cypherites for reinsertion.

Would you want a mindwipe to forget ever being extracted (with happy, content memories in place of the old ones) and take the chance of waking up again?

Or would you accept reinsertion and retain the knowledge of the true nature of the Matrix (without operative training, of course) so that you could never "re-awaken"?

I wouldnt go to Cyph full stop! Why would i want to live in something that isnt real.

Would you want a mindwipe to forget ever being extracted (with happy, content memories in place of the old ones) and take the chance of waking up again?

That's an interesting point. The people who are awakened are the 1% that reject the Matrix so if they forget what has happened to them when reinserted wouldn't they start rejecting the Matrix again and the whole thing starts over again or would recruitment officers leave them alone because it's already failed once.

Then again if they did keep their memories of being awakened wouldn't the Machines see them as a threat to the system because they could tell other bluepills and cause havoc.

Let's say you decided that Redpill life was too dangerous, boring, cold, whatever, and went to the Cypherites for reinsertion.

Would you want a mindwipe to forget ever being extracted (with happy, content memories in place of the old ones) and take the chance of waking up again?

Or would you accept reinsertion and retain the knowledge of the true nature of the Matrix (without operative training, of course) so that you could never "re-awaken"?

It is canon that redpills can be reinserted.  An early Machine mission has you helping someone who wants to be plugged back into the Matrix.

Illyria

It is canon that redpills can be reinserted.  An early Machine mission has you helping someone who wants to be plugged back into the Matrix.

Illyria

Mainly, because there is no way back.

This is Cypher's story.  He was the guy that went nuts because he was too old to spring from his pod.  Cypher asked to go back, and he was killed instead.  This is how the cookie crumbles.  Now, what someone else wrote in some mission well...no comment.  But, you stick with that if it makes you happy. 

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Let's say you decided that Redpill life was too dangerous, boring, cold, whatever, and went to the Cypherites for reinsertion.

Would you want a mindwipe to forget ever being extracted (with happy, content memories in place of the old ones) and take the chance of waking up again?

Or would you accept reinsertion and retain the knowledge of the true nature of the Matrix (without operative training, of course) so that you could never "re-awaken"?

Reinsertion is a fantasy.  Once you're aware, you're always aware.  Remember, Cypher never went back in...he died.

This really isn't up for debate.  Aside from being a part of a mission that every Machinist goes through, some of the (redpill) Sleepwalkers were also reinserted into the Matrix. 

Illyria

Fractor, I would think the Machines would respect those wishes as it means a "happy sleeper", if you get my meaning.

Redalibi, I didn't mean you to join the Cyphs, just go to them for reinsertion.

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

No, I generally reject premises that VERY VERY incorrect...your (and others) fanboish ways don't come into play.

RainKingX wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

No, I generally reject premises that VERY VERY incorrect...your (and others) fanboish ways don't come into play.

Looking at the arguments speaking for the reinsertion's feasibility (the Machines' promise to Cypher, some incidents in MxO (I admit, seduction missions and a side story event's anticlimactic ending aren't the most "reliable" sources", but they're still there and I think there were more), and common sense), and your arguments against it (let's see... because Cypher happened to be stopped and MxO doesn't count anyway), the first side pretty much wins.

zeroone506 wrote:

RainKingX wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

No, I generally reject premises that VERY VERY incorrect...your (and others) fanboish ways don't come into play.

Looking at the arguments speaking for the reinsertion's feasibility (the Machines' promise to Cypher, some incidents in MxO (I admit, seduction missions and a side story event's anticlimactic ending aren't the most "reliable" sources", but they're still there and I think there were more), and common sense), and your arguments against it (let's see... because Cypher happened to be stopped and MxO doesn't count anyway), the first side pretty much wins.

If was a way to take a side, and therefore win.  The side that would when would be the one who KNOWS what the Wachowskis are saying and not asking questions on a board in hopes of talking about it.  Notice how some people are ALWAYS asking questions and others are always answering them.  I'll leave it to you to figure out which SIDE I'm on.

What's wrong with amusing ourselves with a few questions? If it's so silly, why don't you simply ignore it? Or do you see yourself as some kind of Protector of the Holy Wachowski Matrix Canon?

zeroone506 wrote:

RainKingX wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

No, I generally reject premises that VERY VERY incorrect...your (and others) fanboish ways don't come into play.

Looking at the arguments speaking for the reinsertion's feasibility (the Machines' promise to Cypher, some incidents in MxO (I admit, seduction missions and a side story event's anticlimactic ending aren't the most "reliable" sources", but they're still there and I think there were more), and common sense), and your arguments against it (let's see... because Cypher happened to be stopped and MxO doesn't count anyway), the first side pretty much wins.

If was a way to take a side, and therefore win.  The side that would when would be the one who KNOWS what the Wachowskis are saying and not asking questions on a board in hopes of talking about it.  Notice how some people are ALWAYS asking questions and others are always answering them.  I'll leave it to you to figure out which SIDE I'm on.

RainKingX wrote:

zeroone506 wrote:

RainKingX wrote:

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

Rainking, as always, you argue for the sake and pure pleasure of it. However, I find your argument here to be of the "tree falling in the forest" ilk. So, I'll just say that I choose to believe, in my fanboish way, that reinsertion is indeed, canon.

No, I generally reject premises that VERY VERY incorrect...your (and others) fanboish ways don't come into play.

Looking at the arguments speaking for the reinsertion's feasibility (the Machines' promise to Cypher, some incidents in MxO (I admit, seduction missions and a side story event's anticlimactic ending aren't the most "reliable" sources", but they're still there and I think there were more), and common sense), and your arguments against it (let's see... because Cypher happened to be stopped and MxO doesn't count anyway), the first side pretty much wins.

If was a way to take a side, and therefore win.  The side that would when would be the one who KNOWS what the Wachowskis are saying and not asking questions on a board in hopes of talking about it.  Notice how some people are ALWAYS asking questions and others are always answering them.  I'll leave it to you to figure out which SIDE I'm on.

What's wrong with amusing ourselves with a few questions? If it's so silly, why don't you simply ignore it? Or do you see yourself as some kind of Protector of the Holy Wachowski Matrix Canon?

The sides I was talking about weren't "asking" and "answering", but "reinsertion is possible" and "reinsertion is not possible".

In the movies alone, it's strongly suggested that it's possible, since Cypher and the Machines do have this sort of deal, and it's quite obvious, or at least suggesting, that the Machines were capable of doing it.

Now, you can also assume that the Machines were lying to Cypher that they could do it - or would do it. Both are, again, not really strongly based assumptions.
Your argument, however, which was that Cypher was killed (and that really just happened this way), has absolutely no value here.

Now, in MxO, reinsertions are finally stated to be possible, and even have happened in actuality.
Your apparent attitude that MxO doesn't count as canon isn't unjustified, but misplaced in a thread that revolves around a groupation (the Cypherites) that exists only in MxO.

zeroone506 wrote:

The sides I was talking about weren't "asking" and "answering", but "reinsertion is possible" and "reinsertion is not possible".

In the movies alone, it's strongly suggested that it's possible, since Cypher and the Machines do have this sort of deal, and it's quite obvious, or at least suggesting, that the Machines were capable of doing it.

Now, you can also assume that the Machines were lying to Cypher that they could do it - or would do it. Both are, again, not really strongly based assumptions.
Your argument, however, which was that Cypher was killed (and that really just happened this way), has absolutely no value here.

Now, in MxO, reinsertions are finally stated to be possible, and even have happened in actuality.
Your apparent attitude that MxO doesn't count as canon isn't unjustified, but misplaced in a thread that revolves around a groupation (the Cypherites) that exists only in MxO.

Yes, but then one would have to know who the cypherites are and what they stand for.

The Cypherites don't pay homage to Cypher (from the movies).  If they were like Cypher (from the movies) they would just reinsert themselves and be done with it. The Cypherites are called as such because that's what they do (or at least, their power structure was supposed to be surrounded by it).  Their introduction was a cipher.  Kryptos is a cipher. Cryptos' introduction was a cipher.

The origins of Cypher's and Cryptos' names aside, the Cypherites indeed base their "belief" on Cypher, whether they are like him or not. That's a known fact, and I'm not sure if you even contradicted it the way I think. =P

They only exist because the Machine's belief systems exclude them from being "Machines".  However, the Cyphs use the Machine's org. structure to hold there own.  The problem with them is they have a tendency to cross the "Machine" lines and do things we'd expect Zions to do, i.e. getting what they need "by all means necessary."

I don't quite understand what you mean.

You know the Cypherites are not part of the Machine organization, and are an autonomous organization consisting of people who regret their awakening but stay to fight for their cause (to be honest, I'm a bit confused about those...) or something.

Maybe they are actually a Machine idea which only Cryptos or some other bigwigs know, but that's not on the table yet.

The Cypherites don't reinsert anyone, though. They exploit bluepills.  Exploited bluepills are called Sleepwalkers.

? The Sleepwalkers were extremist Cypherites who endangered the System's stability to reinsert redpills, and as far as I know, they try to protect bluepills from recruiters.

Clever theories / better understanding, or ignorance?


Now, it's sorta of a contradiction in terms for the cypherites to be redpills but want all (or certain) the redpills to be bluepills. 

They want to be bluepills, but they aren't. Now, the Sleepwalkers were obviously reinserted right in their hovercrafts and became "bluepills" right there, but... meh. Cypherites are redpills, the Sleepwalkers were before they failed.

It's crossing the line, and crossing lines is something Zion does...not machines.  And, if reinserting (were it an option) certain redpills is the only way to protect the truce, then why not just target those people in the real world (where they are at their weakest) and call it day.

I think the Sleepwalkers did plan to reinsert the redpills in the Real once they were put to "sleep" by those projector devices.
The extremist ones at the beginning... haven't heard anything particular about real world confrontations apart from pulling-plug-betrayals (they aimed to kill everybody back then, not reinsert, I think), but I might've missed it.

Right now, their goals don't seem so militant in relation to other redpills (except of EPN).

This is not what they do.  What Cypherites do is exploit most bluepills further and further away from the truth.  In this way, they are like the Machines.  They don't adhere to the truce because they make it harder and harder for Zion to recruit.

---

My attitude is:  The Wachowskis' main strength is to retell (rewrite) stories in a very intelligent and exciting way.  Silver brings these guys in to make his movies seem smarter and more inline with the Silver pictures portfolio strategy.   I like most of Chadwick's (or whoever is writing MxO) angles, but they seem to go way over the heads of the current audience and nowhere as accurate to what the Wachowskis (re-) wrote.

In short, as I've expressed many times, MxO has a lot of strategic flaws. Or, none of the subsequent Matrix products have lived up to the quality of the movies.  They might as well put the Krusty brand on it and give up.  Oh wait, they did.

Yes, it's possible. 

Lyr

Not possible that it exists, the procedure itself. And by possible, I mean feasible.

I don't think I want to go over the same arguments, like, the fourth time.