[6.2.4] "I'm not asking you to believe. But there's something you need to see" - Syntax - 12/12/06

Look what I've find in my old screenshots :

         

Same place, bombs, Morpheus...

maybe he was really the lvl 60 character in the middle that we couldnt see who it was...

(What time did this event happen, for People in GMT please?)

As far as I can see their is one logical reason to what that apparition was. These bombs that have been created by EPN were created to draw out data within in the Matrix. Perhaps as many of you say it was a scene from the past. In that case Popper wanted his precious EPN followers to realize that when they do their code bombing it isnt so bad because Morpheus did it as well. On the other hand perhaps he did find a way to get Morpheus back, wether he was dead, alive, or imprisoned.

I have one question though. Was anyone able to get the details on this apparition that appeared that people believe is Morpheus?

These people want to wipe away the lessons of history...they want us to forget or ignore why the Matrix was constructed in the first place.  They want us to focus on how downtrodden and oppressed we are, but they won't acknowledge that our current situation is a direct result of *human* actions.

I'm not denying this. I don't condone what was done in the past.

Men have destroyed machines, machines have done everything to us that we have done to them and ourselves... But holding someone against the sins of their forebears is not a path I can follow.

We SHOULD work together... not for the machines, against our will.

Stupid conceited commerce driven humanity is to blame for starting the war. I'm hoping that a humanity driven by cooperation and a will to survive could end it. Machines are only the enemy as long as we fight each other.

The current "truce" is a joke. Compared to the war it is relatively peaceful, but we are still completely at the mercy of the machines. I don't see anybody working to clear the sky. How the hell have the machines not figured that one out? They can build flyers, surely something can be done. Fusion generators, microwave collection satelites... so many options, so many collaborative projects. Instead you'd rather just help keep people in pods... that's what I call selling out humanity.

It has nothing to do with worshiping Morpheus. He is just a man. One whom I believe was able to see the biggest picture and break it down into managble chunks. Most revolutionary figures in history have only had their greatness recognised in hindsight. Get off your band-wagon, EPN, ZION, CYPHERITE, MACHINE or MEROVINGIAN and do something positive instead of spouting your "Morpheus is great/thedevil" propoganda.

Shouki, lose the sarcasm and open your eyes to the bigger picture.

Illyria, I'm wary of people too. But there are machines and programs that behave in exactly the same power-driven maniacal circles. The vast majority want to the right thing or are being misled by the corrupt in power, these figureheads need to be lopped off and man and machine need to worktogether if we are to truly lear from our pasts.

"May man and machine be forgiven for their sins."

Since there seems to be a correlation between the code bombs, Morpheus and the Code Pulses, I suggest we start looking into the location of the last code bomb Morpheus is confirmed to have planted: The Southard Treatment Plant

Since there seems to be a correlation between the code bombs, Morpheus and the Code Pulses, I suggest we start looking into the location of the last code bomb Morpheus is confirmed to have planted: The Rumbarr Water Treatment Plant

fixed.

((actully the area isnt ingame and isnt located in any district, while southhard is the closest place that looks like it the actual area isn't in the areas we are able to vist.))

should report the to /resource

btw Gami, your sig makes sense

should report the to /resource

btw Gami, your sig makes sense

In one of the old sentinel issues after Morpheus death, Flood leaves a message for Merovingian Operatives.  This message states that The Merovingian was responsible for The Assassin targetting Morpheus, but that we (Merovingian) only gave him bullets that would jam his code so that he could never return to the Matrix.  If there were kill-codes in his bullets they were from somewhere else.

Do you have proof that the Machines supplied the Merovingian's henchman with the killcodes?

Illyria

Personally I beleive that it is more likely that the General handed such codes over to the Assassin.

The question is was this done directly to the Assassin, or did the General subvert some of the Frenchmens people, and in turn had the bullets switched?

Hmph, that is not the real Morpheus... the code bombs pull data out from the Matrix, it is residual data of Morpheus, like a cookie... Morpheus is dead... Neo is dead... and as soon as Zion and EPN realize these things, the Real World, and the Matrix will be a much better place.

Ignorance is bliss , hey?

((Refering to Ebola sig))

Ebola wrote:

Hmph, that is not the real Morpheus... the code bombs pull data out from the Matrix, it is residual data of Morpheus, like a cookie... Morpheus is dead... Neo is dead... and as soon as Zion and EPN realize these things, the Real World, and the Matrix will be a much better place.

Ignorance is bliss , hey?

((Refering to Ebola sig))

/yawn

The question to Zion is, if Morpheus returns, what will you do with him? 

Commander Lock still wants him apprehended for his actions -- his actions that threatened the truce, and with it the very existence of the city of Zion.  How does it feel to know that your 'hero' is willing to throw away not only your life, but the lives of hundreds of thousands of your friends and neighbors? 

Illyria

The question to Zion is, if Morpheus returns, what will you do with him? 

Commander Lock still wants him apprehended for his actions -- his actions that threatened the truce, and with it the very existence of the city of Zion.  How does it feel to know that your 'hero' is willing to throw away not only your life, but the lives of hundreds of thousands of your friends and neighbors? 

Illyria

My guess would be that the do the same as they did then. Try and find him and hold him on trial (Although we have seen countless times how great a job Zion's search parites do.)

The true believer's faith won't waver and the heart's of the real enemies wont sofen. The only people that will change are those that can not or could not make up there mind.

The question to Zion is, if Morpheus returns, what will you do with him? 

Commander Lock still wants him apprehended for his actions -- his actions that threatened the truce, and with it the very existence of the city of Zion.  How does it feel to know that your 'hero' is willing to throw away not only your life, but the lives of hundreds of thousands of your friends and neighbors? 

Illyria

For anyone that missed it, that was a rhetorical question. No really, it was.
But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

nah its an exagerated number that has been formed because people fell it is eaier to find fault in someone if death is envolved and the greater the death count the greater the emotion of hate towards those who caused it. The sad truth however is that people have long since deicded that offical reports mean nothing and that the word of a friend, of a friend, of a friend is rock solid and continue to beleive so untill the reports are long forgotten and only the exageration remains.. Now this is not to say that there were no deaths (because undoubtly their must have been) but Tyndall, Gray, and Flood seemed to have forgotten to mention the death cout of millions while giveing there summeries and reports.

Just have a look for yourself if you don't believe me.

Zion Reprots
Merovingian Reports
Machine Reports

Zion Summery
Merovingian Summery
Machine Summery

Summery

A cow in the wild = free animal

A cow in a pen = food

I for one refuse to be cattle. Of course Cypher was rather fond of steak. Ironic, as all he wanted was to be steak.

Skill wrote:

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

nah its an exagerated number that has been formed because people fell it is eaier to find fault in someone if death is envolved and the greater the death count the greater the emotion of hate towards those who caused it. The sad truth however is that people have long since deicded that offical reports mean nothing and that the word of a friend, of a friend, of a friend is rock solid and continue to beleive so untill the reports are long forgotten and only the exageration remains.. Now this is not to say that there were no deaths (because undoubtly their must have been) but Tyndall, Gray, and Flood seemed to have forgotten to mention the death cout of millions while giveing there summeries and reports.

Just have a look for yourself if you don't believe me.

Zion Reprots
Merovingian Reports
Machine Reports

Zion Summery
Merovingian Summery
Machine Summery

Summery

The bombs themselves do not kill. However the action of awakening does carry with it two faults.

First, if there is no ship ready to pick up the newley awakened Red, they drown due to no muscle mass.

Second, only 1% are ready to accept the truth, and the others can -violently- reject it, leading to their minds shutting down.

Yep yep.

although the zion reports say that machine and merv ships were in range and waiting, but fault 2 is still a problem and thus the reason why useing code bombs is a no no.

Nobody's really answered my question.  I just want to know how average Zionites feel about Morpheus's disregard for their lives and the lives of everyone in their entire city.  (Morpheus also stated that he was willing to risk "millions" of bluepill lives to get back Neo's body, but since some redpills don't even consider the blues to be truly alive, I didn't bring them up.)  I mean, those of you who claim to follow Morpheus must have some opinion on it.  Is Morpheus's goal of getting Neo's remains more important than your city, and the hundreds of thousands of lives it shelters? 

Illyria

My guess would be that the do the same as they did then. Try and find him and hold him on trial (Although we have seen countless times how great a job Zion's search parites do.)

The true believer's faith won't waver and the heart's of the real enemies wont sofen. The only people that will change are those that can not or could not make up there mind.

<-- answerd it.

average joe Zionite will proably listen to the council rather then morpheus followers (expecialy if freed after Morpheus death).  

Those that follow morpheus are well aware I assume of what Morpheus was willing to do to accompish his goal (as we see with the code bobms) and will remain ever so loyal. Kinda like how Machienst remain loyal to keeping maximum effecency within the simulation even if it means sideing with another red pill that was willing to kill millions also mon.  

but anyway, from just talking to Moprheus followers the answer is yes. They put Neo's body above the city and claim that saveing the body will save the city.

Nobody's really answered my question. 

I thought it was supposed to be rhetorical, but if you really want an answer...

I just want to know how average Zionites feel about Morpheus's disregard for their lives and the lives of everyone in their entire city.  (Morpheus also stated that he was willing to risk "millions" of bluepill lives to get back Neo's body, but since some redpills don't even consider the blues to be truly alive, I didn't bring them up.)  I mean, those of you who claim to follow Morpheus must have some opinion on it.  Is Morpheus's goal of getting Neo's remains more important than your city, and the hundreds of thousands of lives it shelters? 

No... why do you think he left Zion and refused to work with high command? Probably because he isn't an idiot like some people paint him to be. He knew that what he was asking for he could never attain while keeping the peace as long as he stayed in Zion.
On the other hand, he said he was willing to risk "millions" of bluepill lives, a statement which smacks of brinkmanship. But I doubt in the end he'd be able to do it.. but that's just my opinion.

Illyria

(oops, duplicate post -- can someone remove this?)

GamiSB wrote:

          average joe Zionite will proably listen to the council rather then morpheus followers (expecialy if freed after Morpheus death).  

That's good to hear.  Sometimes it seems that (some) Zionites have completely lost their senses.

GamiSB wrote:

     Those that follow morpheus are well aware I assume of what Morpheus was willing to do to accompish his goal (as we see with the code bobms) and will remain ever so loyal. Kinda like how Machienst remain loyal to keeping maximum effecency within the simulation even if it means sideing with another red pill that was willing to kill millions also mon.  

Cryptos was willing to kill millions -- actually, the billions of human beings attached to the Matrix -- when he was still a staunch Zionite.  (With such a strong desire to destroy the Matrix, just to strike at the Machines, I can certainly understand his friendship with Morpheus at the time.  Who knows, maybe if he hadn't left Zion, Cryptos and the Kid would both be leading EPN right now!)  And while I'm not a supporter of his belief that everyone should go back to their pods, I'm thankful that these murderous inclinations fell away when he left Zion.

Illyria

GamiSB wrote:

          average joe Zionite will proably listen to the council rather then morpheus followers (expecialy if freed after Morpheus death).  

That's good to hear.  Sometimes it seems that (some) Zionites have completely lost their senses.

Their just a little confused ^^

GamiSB wrote:

     Those that follow morpheus are well aware I assume of what Morpheus was willing to do to accompish his goal (as we see with the code bobms) and will remain ever so loyal. Kinda like how Machienst remain loyal to keeping maximum effecency within the simulation even if it means sideing with another red pill that was willing to kill millions also mon.  

Cryptos was willing to kill millions -- actually, the billions of human beings attached to the Matrix -- when he was still a staunch Zionite.  (With such a strong desire to destroy the Matrix, just to strike at the Machines, I can certainly understand his friendship with Morpheus at the time.  Who knows, maybe if he hadn't left Zion, Cryptos and the Kid would both be leading EPN right now!)  And while I'm not a supporter of his belief that everyone should go back to their pods, I'm thankful that these murderous inclinations fell away when he left Zion.

True that it was in his past and he did go from saying "Machiens are evil" to "hug your toaster(no ofence)" in less then an hour. Seems a bit odd to me but wht can ya do *shrug* The Morpheus friend thing is news to me because there is an audio recording out there that shows that Cryptos was anything but a friend of Morpheus an thought his quest for the One was pointless, not to mention the amount of faith in Neo he showed was about as great as Cyphers. Hardly his friend me thinks. But anyway I hope it answerd your question.

Illyria

GamiSB

Oh and Skill, Cryptos was freed before the truce came about. His following is mostly made up of code bomb vic but he is not one (nor is Veil)

oh, sorry, i meant the guy who killed cryptos and took his place

Hey, as long as he's not advocating the murder of billions of people, I'd say it's a step up! 

Lyr

Skill wrote:

oh, sorry, i meant the guy who killed cryptos and took his place

Hey, as long as he's not advocating the murder of billions of people, I'd say it's a step up! 

Lyr

Illyria22 wrote:

Skill wrote:

oh, sorry, i meant the guy who killed cryptos and took his place

Hey, as long as he's not advocating the murder of billions of people, I'd say it's a step up! 

Lyr

Unless he happens to be the puppet for someone who actually plans to act on said feelings..

Yeah the old Cryptos was friends with Cypher, not Morpheus so the two names probably got mixed up! (though you have to wonder how they were friends back then with their different views! :O )

I think in the end Morpheus knew that the machines would never have let millions of people die because of his bombs, so I guess even though some people died and he did put everyone at risk which was totally wrong, in his head I think he knew the Matrix wouldn't be in danger and most people would be fine because the machines would give in and give him Neo's body before that ever happened!  I guess the losses it took to get there were okay with him!

Skill, that "exact number" comes from Morpheus himself, while speaking to the Oracle.

Some people might say "that isn't what he meant".  But then, if he doesn't mean it, why does he say it?  Without the Oracle demurring or correcting him?  And if the Machine system came down, just what _was_ his plan for taking care of billions of the unpodded?    It's not like Zion in the films was a poster-child for the life of the future or anything....

Skill wrote:

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

Skill wrote:

Relapse wrote:

But hey, If people want to follow a man whose actions cost MILLIONS of people their lives, everywhere. Go right ahead, they will be put down like dogs. Just like every other terrorist and their senseless propaganda.

>Pilot_

Is that an exact number?

Skill, that "exact number" comes from Morpheus himself, while speaking to the Oracle.

Some people might say "that isn't what he meant".  But then, if he doesn't mean it, why does he say it?  Without the Oracle demurring or correcting him?  And if the Machine system came down, just what _was_ his plan for taking care of billions of the unpodded? It's not like Zion in the films was a poster-child for the life of the future or anything....

He said he was willing to kill millions of people in one of the cinematics, when he talks to the Oracle.

Illyria

Yes he did.

And in the movies the Machines made it clear they were willing to let all of humanity die along with the Matrix just because the Cycle of the One failed in its sixth iteration. Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Does the truth give you a rash?

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

r3spon5e wrote:

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

And I guess they couldn't tell it was The One blasting Sentinels out of the sky with just his thoughts. I mean, since he was so close to the Source and all.

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

Yes, but that still doesn't account for the fact that they were (and still are) completely ready to commit absolute genocide.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Well, that's convenient. When you Machinists say something wrong, it's a mistake. When we say something wrong, it's a conspiracy.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" -Leonard Nimoy

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

There are so many assumptions in this response, I don't even have to try. But, I do have to ask - everyone knows the truth?

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

*Points up to the "brown-nosing" insult Garu himself just made.

Garu wrote:

r3spon5e wrote:

...Yes, at the very end when the Smith virus had completely consumed the simulation, the Machines were willing to let it all expire just like that. They did everything they could to kill Neo. A dead Neo doesn't save the Matrix. 

No they didn't.  The approach of the Logos initiated the self-defense system.  They were merely trying to destroy the craft despite Neo being in it.  After he crashed and wandered through 01, nothing attacked him.  Why? <insert obvious answer here>

And I guess they couldn't tell it was The One blasting Sentinels out of the sky with just his thoughts. I mean, since he was so close to the Source and all.

Possibly but if they meant to kill him, he gave them the opportunity to.  Right?

The Machines knew the Matrix was doomed and they still tried to destroy Neo and Zion. That covers all the humans everywhere. Let me see now...counts on fingers slowly.... that's like billions of bluepills which is thousands of millions...so that makes the Machines thousands of times worse than Morpheus... oh and that's the end of humanity under the guardianship of the Machines.

Zion was only populated by approximately 250,000 people at that time. 

Furthermore, had Smith reached the point of destroying it, the Machines merely would have shut it down.  The pods and power system would have remained intact and continued to function.  Remember, the Matrix is only the simulation that the pod-borns dream in, not the machine city itself.  In fact, the Plant is quite a distance from the actual city.

Countless billions would have lived on while only Zion would have ultimately fallen...again.

Yes, but that still doesn't account for the fact that they were (and still are) completely ready to commit absolute genocide.

Zion does not account for our entire race.  The machines have always sought to safeguard the coppertops.

You remember saying this, "There is no threat of the extinction of the human race while the Machines still exist."? Of course you remember. You remember what happened in the movies? Of course you do.

Yeah but there's nothing wrong with re-watching them.  Memory tends to fade and warp over time.  Details get washed away.

Well, that's convenient. When you Machinists say something wrong, it's a mistake. When we say something wrong, it's a conspiracy.

What magic hat did you pull that from?  I was merely commenting that there's nothing wrong with rewatching the films.

Why do you make up such contrived lies?

It's not contrived, it's an opinion deduced from reasonable logic.  Try it.

"Logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end" -Leonard Nimoy

"Live long and prosper." - Spock

Why are you so afraid of Morpheus returning? What do you fear he will do... tell everyone the truth?

Everyone knows the truth and dead men don't talk.  Fear has nothing to do with it.  The only thing we're concerned about is all his brown-nosing followers who would blindly follow any order he gave at the drop of hat just to satisfy their "hero".

There are so many assumptions in this response, I don't even have to try. But, I do have to ask - everyone knows the truth?

Yes, even if only on a subconscious level.

Does the truth give you a rash?

Are you incapable of debating without resorting to irrelevant personal attacks?

*Points up to the "brown-nosing" insult Garu himself just made.

That was not a personal attack on R3spon5e.  I was speaking generally of people so enamored by Morpheus that they'd do anything he asked.