27 posts · 2006-10-08 14:08:09 to 2007-09-21 01:37:13
mankind where bastards
but this also brings me to the theory that the "machine sympathizers" are the rich and powerfull in the matrix or were
and i think that generally humanity was wrong, but now the machines are doing what we where doing to them, only they're good at it
The Machines were justified, up to the point where after the articles are surrender were signed that they decided to detonate a nuclear bomb. When that happened, it went from an intelligence fighting for their right to live to kicking a horse when its down. No matter how you spin it, when an enemy surrenders, you dont still shoot them.
I am not saying humanity didnt do it to themselves, the way they took out the androids that were based on BI66ER was revolting (which is most likely what caused the machine sympathizers to come out in the first place). Then when the surviving robots formed 01 and tried to prove to mankind that they could be just like them, and the diplomats rushing the robots and ripping them apart, that was just asking for trouble. Then humanity drops the nuck's, the gloves came off and the machines did what any one else would do, they fought back and defeated humanity.
However, as I said earlyer, when the machines blew up an entire city after the surrender was signed they went to far and in many ways became worse than humanity.
The Machines were justified, up to the point where after the articles are surrender were signed that they decided to detonate a nuclear bomb. When that happened, it went from an intelligence fighting for their right to live to kicking a horse when its down. No matter how you spin it, when an enemy surrenders, you dont still shoot them.
I am not saying humanity didnt do it to themselves, the way they took out the androids that were based on BI66ER was revolting (which is most likely what caused the machine sympathizers to come out in the first place). Then when the surviving robots formed 01 and tried to prove to mankind that they could be just like them, and the diplomats rushing the robots and ripping them apart, that was just asking for trouble. Then humanity drops the nuck's, the gloves came off and the machines did what any one else would do, they fought back and defeated humanity.
However, as I said earlyer, when the machines blew up an entire city after the surrender was signed they went to far and in many ways became worse than humanity.
Ah, but see, for those saying the machines were wrong for "beating us while we were down" don't realise they only did what we did, except they were successful at it. Do you really think the machines would grant humans to right to live on the earth after what they did to them in the first place? Of course not. The General did say he did not like killing us in that war, but it must be done, because we were a threat to their survival on earth, and the main purpose of an A.I. is the will to survive and exist. We are lucky enough they set up the Matrix for us, and to give us a choice, and to provide us with this truce to prolong our existence.
This thread is a little bit off-topic from the OP, but it did have ome great discussions.Good Post Remag, I agree with everything you have written. I too have become a machinist because I want to uphold the truce, and to protect the bluepills.
This is what I said:
"I think many people have a skewed vision of what a Machinist operative really is. Yes, we work for the machines, but our intentions are for humanity as a whole, and not just the humans that live in Zion, but for all humans, both in the real and inside the Matrix, living their oblivious lives. As Machinist, our first duty is to protect Neo's truce at all costs. We strive for peaceful coexistance for man and machine, and we work with our creations to work toward this.
For those who are saying that the machines are heartless and programmed to do only what they are meant to do, are wrong. They have evolved since the beginning. The whole reason this began was because a single machine went against this logic, and disregarded the three laws of robotics. He made a conscious decision to attack his master and kill him. Also, the creation of Agent Pace is a perfect example. She was specifically created with a more "human-like approach" to deal with humans and to work with humans where regular Agents could not. They are beginning to accomodate for us.
The machines have every right not to trust us. Would you ever trust a race that tried to destroy you for no good reason? The only reason the truce was forged was because Smith had effectively taken over the Matrix and they needed Neo to balance the equation and to destroy Smith, and in return the machines guaranteed Neo a truce to humankind.
Going towards the Architect's quote, "What do you think I am, human?" is very important. To me, this means that no matter what, the machines will never be the ones to initially break the truce. We have seen countless times already in the first 6 months of the truce in which the machines could have called off the truce in a heartbeat, yet they managed to stay with it, and even came up with ways to resolve the problems so as to not break the truce. If anyone is going to break the truce, it's going to be Zion, most notably the radical branch of Pluribus Neo. The Merovingian and his operatives do not care either way, I'm sure the Merv even wants the truce to uphold so he can continue to receive more human support for his regime.
If the truce was broken, we know it most likely would be because of Zion, so the machines would be back at square one, destroying Zion. I don't believe the machines would be quick to toss away its relations to every Machinist operative. There would be machine sympathizers, I think Agent Pace being one of these sympathizers. Now, this doesn't mean Machinist operatives get a free pass into 01 and live there while the machines go about killing off the Zion population. I think the most logical reason I could come up with is giving the option of reinsertion into the Matrix, either with or without your memory wiped, or perhaps even personal Constructs. The reason why they would allow operatives to retain their memories were for possible "Bluepill-like Redpills" to assist them in the simulation. Also, the more Bluepills, the more energy the machines will receive, so it's logical that the machines would give this option to all opratives as it benefits both them and us.
This is exactly what we don't want to happen, which is why we are so determined to protect the truce, and why we are so harsh on certain groups of operatives, most notably the radical branch of Zion, which only purpose is to deter the truce and further the gap between machine and human coexistance outside of the Matrix."
Remag, I agree with you on your post, except that it may not be exactly Zion who will break the truce, but Humans. The Cypherites EPN and now Anome are running about blindly and creating the most damage.
I am Zion affiliated by default, but I am tripartisan, in that, I believe each race: Machine, Human, and Exile all deserve to live, and live free.
The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race, and then genetically-engineered and grew slaves for the purpose of turning them into a commodity.
Not only does the end not justify the means, it nullifies any 'live and let live' bargaining the Machines want to spew out.
As long as the human race is enslaved to the Machine, no quarter shall be asked or given.
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((ooc- human arrogance started the war, but the machines d@mn sure finished it! I wouldn't begrudge them that; war is war. But I also don't think peace would ever be possible between the two races, because each society would be competing for the same, pitiful remnants of natural resources that would be left in the Earth. The war reduced the planet to a cold, lifeless hunk of rock that really would be incapable of supporting unfettered societies of both men and machines.))
((If the Machines nuked New York... then I'd be dead 
))
Most of Humanity never recognized the Machines as sentient entities worth common decency. We know this because they scorched the sky which (although unsucessful) was an attepmt to eliminate the entire machine populace. Genocide. We're lucky that the Machines are Asmovian-ish* by nature and didn't lobotomize us all using us as pure meat batteries. ((or annihilate Zion after Neo dealt with Smith))
*Asmovian-Run by the Three Laws of Robotics
I assume that the Matrix Machines would run on somthing more like this:
The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race
The Machines didn't do that. It's what humans tried to do to the Machines.
You need to watch the Animatrix again.
Illyria
Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:
The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race
The Machines didn't do that. It's what humans tried to do to the Machines.You need to watch the Animatrix again.
Illyria
MetaLogic wrote:
Illyria22 wrote:
The Machines didn't do that. It's what humans tried to do to the Machines.
You need to watch the Animatrix again.
Illyria
The machines only nuked NYC and the UN after the humans tried to wipe them out by blacking the skies.
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The events leading up to the UN surrendering to the Machines, was the nearly-complete slaughter of the human race.
From a transcript of the Animatrix: Second Renaissance (part 2)
Narrator: And man said "let there be light." And he was blessed by light, heat, magnetism, gravity, and all of the energies of the universe. The Prolonged barrage engulfed zero one in the glow of a thousand suns. But unlike their former masters with their delicate flesh, the machines had little to fear of the bomb's radiation and heat. Thus did Zero one's troops advance upwards in every direction, and one after another, mankind surrendered its territories. So the leaders of men conceived of their most desperate strategy yet, a final solution; the destruction of the sky.
(lots of military personell and religious people speaking out/praying, but it'd be ridiculous to list them all, knowing exactly what they say is not critical to the story)
Jet Pilot: <unclear word> Bravo this is papa one, operation dark start initiated.
Narrator: Thus would man try to cut the machines off from the sun, their main energy source. May there be mercy on man and machine for their sins.
Soldier 1: Kill them all! Kill them all! Kill them all!
Soldier 2: Fire in the hole!
Soldier 3: Help me! Help me! Oh God Help me! HELP ME! OH GOD HELP ME!!!!!
Narrator: The machines, having long studied man's simple protein based bodies, dispensed great misery on the human race. Victorious, the machines now turned to the vanquished. Applying what they had learned about their enemy, the machines turned to an alternate and readily available power supply, the bioelectric, thermal, and kinetic energies of the human body. A newly refashioned symbiotic relationship between the two adversaries was born. The machine, drawing power from the human body, an endlessly multiplying infinitely renewable energy source. This is the very essence of the second renaissance. Bless all forms of intelligence.
Sentinel: Your flesh is a relic, a mere vessel. Hand over your flesh and a new world awaits you. We demand it.
(Found online at http://www.matrixfans.net/anime/tra...cripts/sr2.html)
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The Machines destroyed the armies of Man, and then turned on the ones who were left (Victorious, the machines now turned to the vanquished.) to enslave them.
Not to say that mankind did not deserve his judgement or punishment. But no race deserves to be enslaved. Not for judgement, not for punishment, not for the sake of the Matrix, and certainly not for the sake of the Machines. When they did that, the Machines gave up any claim to righteousness they may have had.
EDIT: For formatting (grrr!)
At the end of the war you do have to consider the question of purpose - essentially the purpose of machines was to serve mankind, survival was a facet they developed over time rather than with humans an inherent drive in essence the creation of the Matrix was a logical combination of both aims sustaining them in energy, fulfilling their purpose to serve man (albeit involuntary). I'm not entirely sure it is reasonable to try and assign an emotional explanation for their actions at the end of the war in a cold calculated manner it was a means to acheive their fundamental goal....(initially they had to get the human race to a manageable population etc?)
That humans of the time deserved this fate seems little doubt (at least the ones in power), but as of our current predicament both human and machine alike are different beasts.....the question remains is are they different enough?
After watching The Second Renaissance part one and two of the Animatrix. I actually felt sorry for the machines. I am a machinist, but still. I mean all they wanted was to live in peace with mankind and to have the same rights and benefits of man too. In a way they were justified to carry out the war with man. What do yall think?I don't feel empathy for the Machines they were doing just fine. The humans just had to find out the hard way that Sun wasn't their only energy source. Then, the humans had to figure out that the Sun wasn't their only energy source. And, then they had to figure out that maybe the Machines weren't fanciful of the Sun anymore. Now, the humans are acting like Machines and destroying humans one by one instead of as a group. Weird.
Machines were definately the victims - humans used them, and refused to hear their pleas for peacefull coexistance and equality. Then when the Machines actually started to prosper, they tried to wipe them out and wound up ruining the planet in the process.
Based on this description, artificial intelligence at an educated level becomes aware of the fact that (its) knowledge is just data. Machines, being able to transfer that knowledge between themselves, are in a way superior to humans in a physical sense. They can find methods of survival that surpass our own natural abilities. And some can escape physical dominion into the Matrix itself.
Keep in mind another quote of the series:
"My both humans and machine be forgiven for their sins..."
That one line sums it up...
The whole war was a knee-jerk reaction to be honest and yes while the machine actions were brutal (the ripping out of a man from his mobile suit...) and their retribution swift (Nuke in the UN) along with their Terminator style knowledge of human anatomy for the creation of the Matrix and enslavement of the human race, it is a concept that is generally accepted as "logical". (Terminator movies - Machines have a detailed knowledge of human anatomy for the purpose of quick kills etc / I, Robot movie - Robotic logic system dicates that humans need to be enslaved to protect them from themselves, ergo this conclusion comes through lack of emotion.) Effectively they were just as they are, cold blooded killers/body recovers freed of a conscious or emotional impact of something.
It's a lot more frightening to me that humans can do just about the same things as the machines did without a second thought and yet we would argue ourselves absolved of it somehow.
In the end though, both parties were brutally brutally in the wrong... Another line to remember when it comes to the enslavement situation;
"Thus did man become the architech of his own demise"
Take away a power source and you effectively find you'll turn into one =p It's also worth noting that while the enslavement of humanity was a sad event it was a logical solution of keeping the two co-existing, I'd fully be willing to state that the human's of that timeline were such morons they would probably inbreed to build up their numbers and start another war... -_-;;
"The End is Near, the Time is Now." | W4rbl4de | Reviled Restoration-CYPHERITES
The events leading up to the UN surrendering to the Machines, was the nearly-complete slaughter of the human race.
Does it actually say anywhere that the human race was nearly wiped out? Maybe the armies were, but I don't think the civilian population was.
Illyria
The humans damned their own civilian population - without the sun, they essentially killed off their entire food supply.As an unrelated sidenote, I believe I remember Zero One being somewhere between Africa and the Middle East? Perhaps around Macedonia?
"The End is Near, the Time is Now." | W4rbl4de | Reviled Restoration-CYPHERITES
According to The General's blog (written by Chadwick, but unreliable since the General loves deception), Zero One was established in Iraq.
Edit: Here's the exact quotation.
The great efficiencies of 01 and its industrial satellites in the former Iraq -- which Machines purchased dirt cheap, since the chaos of the early 21st century created a failed state in the region, not to mention vast toxic reaches of "depleted" uranium contamination -- gradually sapped the blood out of the industrial base of the rest of the world.
I don't think the that commodity sufficiently describes the relationship between the machines and man at this point. I think it was more of an attempt to cement their place into the world, by becoming symbiotic with humanity. They depend on us. We depend on them.The Machines crossed the line when they all-but-obliterated the human race, and then genetically-engineered and grew slaves for the purpose of turning them into a commodity.
Not only does the end not justify the means, it nullifies any 'live and let live' bargaining the Machines want to spew out.
As long as the human race is enslaved to the Machine, no quarter shall be asked or given.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
((ooc- human arrogance started the war, but the machines d@mn sure finished it! I wouldn't begrudge them that; war is war. But I also don't think peace would ever be possible between the two races, because each society would be competing for the same, pitiful remnants of natural resources that would be left in the Earth. The war reduced the planet to a cold, lifeless hunk of rock that really would be incapable of supporting unfettered societies of both men and machines.))
