People shouldn't be able to learn schematics from decompiling crafted items. It devalues the effort made by the people who loot, decompile and learn the schematic, then sell crafted items made from it if other people can just decompile what he/she crafts to also learn the schematic.
Require Looted Item Decompiling Only to Learn Schematics
17 posts · 2006-08-22 09:53:00 to 2006-08-31 07:06:00
Because it trivializes the effort of the original crafter to acquire a looted item, decompile it, and learn the schematic from it. Right now, schematics are worthless and anyone who sells a crafted item spoon feeds the schematic for the sold item to all of their competitors. It shouldn't be that easy for a schematic to proliferate.
Not really. You will just have to buy looted items off adventurers or go loot them yourself. Harder, yes because you can no longer steal schematics from the competition by buying and decompiling crafted items that they put up for sale on the Market. If they intended to sell you the schematic, they would have posted the schematic for sale on the Market.
Another side effect would be that used looted items would still have a value even if they had zero purity and condition left. Such used items could still be sold on the market as decompilable items.
The real question is weither you should be allowed to expand your code library by earning schematics or by stealing them? If by stealing, then the work done by those who grow theirs by earning it is completely devalued.
Sorry, but it is stealing. A crafter who sells an item on the Market in most cases intends to sell you an item for your use. If you buy the item and use it, that's as the transaction was intended. If you decompile it, you payed for the item but you stole the schematic. As a crafter that worked my butt off to get a schematic but going out and adventuring to get it, I want distribution of that schematic to be under my active control. I don't want it being distributed involuntarily through selling actual items. If someone wants to give you a schematic, they should be able to get a copy of their schematic from code archive and hand it to you. But many crafters will sell schematics at a substantially higher price than the items that are made from it.
Perhaps an easier solution would be to provide a check box on the Coding Tool Panel that lets the crafter set the No Decompile bit. Then if the item was crafted with the check box turned on, it would refuse decompile attempts just like a reward item from one of the collector NPC's. If the check box is uncheck when the item was crafted, then it would be decompilable like all crafted items currently are. That would let your friends give you schematics but also allow crafters to keep schematics away from competitors who buy and decompile their items, then undercut the selling prices on the Market.
I hear why you are saying Lady_Return but I don't agree that because that's the way things are, its the way things should be or continue to be. If all schematics are open source the way they are now, you can't exactly design any missions or other methods for players to obtain them through achievement. Because they are open source in the matrix, they are worthless and all the items produced from them are equally worthless. Right now, only Red Frags requirement makes any items have any value. As an example, the Health Pill 5.0 goes for about 3M for a stack of 20 on Recursion. What do you think it go for if it didn't require a Consumables Subroutine to craft? They would be worthless. Because Consumable Subroutines have to be looted, they have value and the items made from them have value. How many story lines have been designed around something that was in limited supply or only a single copy existed? There's been lots of them. How many story lines have been designed around something that's open source? I can't think of a single example. That would be like writing a story about picking up a rock off the ground. Giving crafters to ability to control the proliferation of the schematics they know would return value to most of the crafted items in the game.
Ikkaku,
That idea would create a use for encryption/decryption skills that currently have no use whatsoever. It would take some fleshing out. It would need to be a challenging task for both character and player skill.
That idea would create a use for encryption/decryption skills that currently have no use whatsoever. It would take some fleshing out. It would need to be a challenging task for both character and player skill.
Ikkaku wrote:
Character skill alone may not be enough to prevent mass distribution of schematics throughout the population. Perhaps the encryption/decryption skill should enable some sort of pattern matching puzzle which the decrypting player must match to the pattern set by the original encrypter. It should be sufficiently complex that the decrypting player must take significant amount of game time to crack the encrypters pattern. Character skill only gives you access to see and attempt to use the pattern or puzzle panel via some sort of encrypting/decrypting tool.
ArdenStarmariner wrote:Ikkaku,We are in agreement. The process could involve crafting the item, then applying the encryption with the existing tool / ability.
That idea would create a use for encryption/decryption skills that currently have no use whatsoever. It would take some fleshing out. It would need to be a challenging task for both character and player skill.
The challenge would be to match the original crafters level of encryption / decryption. Leveling this ability should be expensive. The goal of anyone who desires to be a successful crafter should be to raise their encrytption / decryption level to a competitive level and then offer their exclusive items to the public knowing that their items will not be copied and redistributed so easily.
MxO would benefit from a system that allows rare items to remain rare. The moment someone shares a unique item with the population it is immediately spread throughout the Matrix uncontrollably. That defeats the purpose of having special items in the first place. If everyone has it, then the item is no longer special.
In an ideal situation, A good crafter will have spent somewhere around 30 million or more on their encryption / decryption level. The average player will not be able to simply buy, decompile and redistribute for some random price.
The current system is inadequate. Yes it functions, but it offers no benefit to the crafter.
Character skill alone may not be enough to prevent mass distribution of schematics throughout the population. Perhaps the encryption/decryption skill should enable some sort of pattern matching puzzle which the decrypting player must match to the pattern set by the original encrypter. It should be sufficiently complex that the decrypting player must take significant amount of game time to crack the encrypters pattern. Character skill only gives you access to see and attempt to use the pattern or puzzle panel via some sort of encrypting/decrypting tool.
Ikkaku wrote:
We agree to adding another level of difficulty, but not to adding a visual / dexterity test. Such a thing would be nice, but we assume it would be impractical for the devs to implement given their current resources.No, not a visual/dexterity type puzzle. There's already plenty visual/dexterity type activities to do in the game just fighting, shooting, and nuking. The puzzle would need to be some sort of logic mini-game. Think of it as PvP using brains as weapons.
To ensure that a significant amount of time is required to crack the original crafter's encryption, the original crafter should be sure to only release the more valuable items with a suitable encryption level.
Software developers spend a considerable amount of time and money on copy protection, but they can only do so much. It seems there is always a way to get around their efforts.
There is problems with all of this...
Implementing any of our ideas would require either introducing new items, or purging the current marketplace along with the player code libraries. So unfortunately, this will never happen.
If this was a possibility, it shouldve been done with the introduction of cr2.0
Just some follow up notes on a few things:
A player who manages to hack a crafter's pattern should get a No Trade version of the schematic. This would prevent one player from hacking the schematic then turn around and making it open source by distributing it to the world. No, each and every player who wants the schematic would have to decrypt it for themselves. The only player that would have a tradable version of the schematic would be the original crafter who decompiled its source looted item.
As too, wiping and resetting the current item/schematic base, that would not be necessary. Player attrition will do the job eventually with far less pain. The DEV's could make the change, put it in, and just let time phase all the older objects out. Also, any new items introduced would be under the system. The DEV's could even start seeding the world with missions and loot tables to drop new rare, exclusive, and limited distribution items.
A player who manages to hack a crafter's pattern should get a No Trade version of the schematic. This would prevent one player from hacking the schematic then turn around and making it open source by distributing it to the world. No, each and every player who wants the schematic would have to decrypt it for themselves. The only player that would have a tradable version of the schematic would be the original crafter who decompiled its source looted item.
As too, wiping and resetting the current item/schematic base, that would not be necessary. Player attrition will do the job eventually with far less pain. The DEV's could make the change, put it in, and just let time phase all the older objects out. Also, any new items introduced would be under the system. The DEV's could even start seeding the world with missions and loot tables to drop new rare, exclusive, and limited distribution items.
GypsyJuggler wrote:
The existance of Collector Rewards and Construct Boss Drops indicates that the DEV's have already headed away from your "Freedom of Goods" policy. While freedom of goods works for the movie, it doesn't work for MMORPGs.
My feeling is that this idea, while interesting and not completely without value, goes quite against the idea of redpils having 'freedom of goods' in the digital world. In the movies, a redpill has anything he or she needs just waiting in a handy construct. None of it costs anything because it is, after all, just some 'lines of script'. The code for a simple item is simple in itself, there is nowhere to 'put' extra encryption code because the code defines the item and the item is limited. Could you imagine a coder putting encryption on a hundred dollar bill so that no one could copy it? Of course not. And even if you did, someone else could just whip up some code for a new counterfeit bill or perhaps download the code from an org archive/construct.
As you can see, I'm against this idea. But I'd like to offer a different suggestion. Perhaps coders could have the ability to 'degrade' items they create - to produce items that are already short-lived and unstable. This way, anything a coder made to pass on would (at the coders discretion) last only a small time before the buyer had to return to the coder for a new one. While not creating such a restrictive, elitist situation, this would add more value to the work a coder does.
The existance of Collector Rewards and Construct Boss Drops indicates that the DEV's have already headed away from your "Freedom of Goods" policy. While freedom of goods works for the movie, it doesn't work for MMORPGs.
Ikkaku wrote:
Exactly! In the real world, we have Patents, Copyrights, and Trademark laws that protect producers from piracy. Some of you should try ripping DVD's and reselling copies in the real world. After all, that's equivalent to what your doing inside MxO by buying someone else's crafted item, decompiling it, and selling copies at cheaper prices. In the real world, your butt will land in jail fast not to mention getting sued. Just take a look at the current crackdown in the music industry on people using peer-to-peer networks to copy/share pirated music.
ManicV wrote:Someone needs to jack out every now and then and have a look outside. Buying something DOES NOT give you the right to mass produce and sell it. Go back to Wikipedia and look up "Patent".Digital Rights Management in the virtual world? I think.... yep... now I've seen everything.
If I pay for an item, that item becomes mine. I own it. At least, as far as ownership goes in a massive online game. I'm free to do with it what I want as long as I don't violate the game's TOS. I can resell it, trade it, or dare I say... decompile it. *DUN dun dunnnnnnnn*
If you go to the store and buy a toaster, does the manufacturer of the toaster then get to tell you how to use it? Nope. You can use it to toast your bread, you can stick a fork in it (not recommended), or you can destroy the toaster entirely. It's your toaster.
The seller gives up all rights to an item once the buyer pays the asking price.
Your example has no relationship with the topic. Who said anything about telling you how to use your items? We are trying to create an effective means to earn $info. The best anyone can do is hope that they will sell more than one of an item before it is decompiled and resold at a lower price.
We are discussing another way to earn $info in MxO. The system is flawed.
Exactly! In the real world, we have Patents, Copyrights, and Trademark laws that protect producers from piracy. Some of you should try ripping DVD's and reselling copies in the real world. After all, that's equivalent to what your doing inside MxO by buying someone else's crafted item, decompiling it, and selling copies at cheaper prices. In the real world, your butt will land in jail fast not to mention getting sued. Just take a look at the current crackdown in the music industry on people using peer-to-peer networks to copy/share pirated music.
LikwidSmoke wrote:
You contradicted yourself there saying, "you can't make a serious income off the marketplace" and then turning around and saying, "your more off less going to ruin any chance the marketplace has for those who wish to make some extra $info off it". Your first statement is factual. The second is pure fantasy. The market is already ruined and people aren't making any real info off it worth the effort. The only reason anyone makes any money off it at all is Red Frags which can't be decompiled or reproduced.
DelstarDotstar wrote:Coudln't have said it betterOk, as a very long time coder who freely gives away how I do certain things
and give clues to people on how to work as a coder, I have never considered
that someone buying one of my items and decompiling it stealing. It really
seems that you want to corner the market on some certain things and charge
extreme prices for them and make it some someone else can't come in under
and sell for less. I and many others that I know like to have the ability to find
things and then pass them around. Can you tell me that your entire recipes
are from loot?The "No decompile" flag seeting is another way, but that would need to be
shown in the marketplace listing because I for one would not even bother
to buy a piece of clothing that I can't decompile.Sorry, but I think that this is a bad idea and even the choice of having a
"No Decompile" flag that you can set while coding is a bad idea. I think very few
would buy those items and then we would have a Marketplace that was more
flooded with items that people will not buy.
, I decompile every thing i loot and buy, why because thats what the coder tree was for in game. I want to increase my code library for my faction then thats my business. It isn't stealing if i pay for an item on the marketplace and decompile it. THE only reason i buy off the marketplace is is to decompile stuff i dont have. The only time i sell on the marketplace is to get rid of the code charges in my library and put them really cheap? WHY because you can't make a serious income off the marketplace so i'll hand out stuff cheap to those who want to do the same.
Your ideas not completely far fetched, but your more off less going to ruin any chance the marketplace has for those who wish to make some extra $info off it, and wasting the DEV's time on fixing and adding more important / lucrative content to the game.
You contradicted yourself there saying, "you can't make a serious income off the marketplace" and then turning around and saying, "your more off less going to ruin any chance the marketplace has for those who wish to make some extra $info off it". Your first statement is factual. The second is pure fantasy. The market is already ruined and people aren't making any real info off it worth the effort. The only reason anyone makes any money off it at all is Red Frags which can't be decompiled or reproduced.
DelstarDotstar wrote:
What your describing in the Real World is called piracy and its illegal. Target, Walmart, and Old Navy skirt the laws as close as they can without actually violating them. Other countries flat out break the law.
Let's see for real life there is a style of clothing that people like and
in a little while Target, Walmart, and Old Navy all make a version of
it for resale for cheaper. Then a bit later the some other country,
that can make it cheaper, starts making it and you see it on the
street vendors. The stores with the higher price on the item are then
forced to put it on sale or lower their price.When you put a price that is too high on something then you should
not expect to have a monopoly on that item. If someone then sells it
cheaper then you need to change your price because now the demand
is for the lower priced version. I see no problem at all in only having a
few chances to sell an item and then having to adjust the price, it happens
all the time in the real world. So it looks like the Matrix in this case is
following real life.
What your describing in the Real World is called piracy and its illegal. Target, Walmart, and Old Navy skirt the laws as close as they can without actually violating them. Other countries flat out break the law.
DelstarDotstar wrote:
A long time coder and a long time poor business man from the looks of it. In the real world, the essence of financial power is secrecy. With your attitude, you'd be hanging your real world "Out of Business" sign in very short order. Cornering the market were possible is standard business practises but won't be possible to maintain in MxO. After all, there's nothing stopping people from going out and looting the same item, decompiling it, and going into competition with you. But at least, they got off their lazy arse and went and did the same amount of work to get the schematic.
Can I tell you if my entire recipes are from loot? Answer is yes. I'm a solo player and I don't join crews, factions, etc. I'm not buying items off the Marketplace and decompiling them. I'm not receiving items from other people much less decompiling them. I fly under my own steam, loot my own stuff, and when I wear crafted, its stuff I make myself. I'll have no problem at all in a much more restrictive system of decompiling.
Ok, as a very long time coder who freely gives away how I do certain things
and give clues to people on how to work as a coder, I have never considered
that someone buying one of my items and decompiling it stealing. It really
seems that you want to corner the market on some certain things and charge
extreme prices for them and make it some someone else can't come in under
and sell for less. I and many others that I know like to have the ability to find
things and then pass them around. Can you tell me that your entire recipes
are from loot?The "No decompile" flag seeting is another way, but that would need to be
shown in the marketplace listing because I for one would not even bother
to buy a piece of clothing that I can't decompile.Sorry, but I think that this is a bad idea and even the choice of having a
"No Decompile" flag that you can set while coding is a bad idea. I think very few
would buy those items and then we would have a Marketplace that was more
flooded with items that people will not buy.
A long time coder and a long time poor business man from the looks of it. In the real world, the essence of financial power is secrecy. With your attitude, you'd be hanging your real world "Out of Business" sign in very short order. Cornering the market were possible is standard business practises but won't be possible to maintain in MxO. After all, there's nothing stopping people from going out and looting the same item, decompiling it, and going into competition with you. But at least, they got off their lazy arse and went and did the same amount of work to get the schematic.
Can I tell you if my entire recipes are from loot? Answer is yes. I'm a solo player and I don't join crews, factions, etc. I'm not buying items off the Marketplace and decompiling them. I'm not receiving items from other people much less decompiling them. I fly under my own steam, loot my own stuff, and when I wear crafted, its stuff I make myself. I'll have no problem at all in a much more restrictive system of decompiling.