One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

#35500000771 04/21/2006 10:20:08 One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

If there's one thing that seems like lots of people on my server are starting to complain about, is that lots of special moves are getting outrolled by your basic Speed or Power tactic moves. Me and a few other people of mixed trees dueled each other for a while and we all noticed that our best abilities just wouldnt work against each other like Wrist Throw, Dual Pistol Dash, etc, etc, etc. But lesser moves like Sidekick Combo and Pistol Aerial are outrolling just about everything thrown at them including the higher level 'Grandmaster' moves from each respective tree.

Now this might just be me, but shouldnt it seem logical that the Grandmaster caliber moves like Extreme Falling Kick should be outrolling the Master caliber moves like Sky High Sidekick? One whole reason to level up is so you can get stronger and use said Grandmaster moves, not so you can stick with the mid level 20 moves for the rest of eternity.

I myself have gone and tested this potential problem amongst a few other tree's I have outside of MA and it seems to be the same across the board were lesser tier moves are outrolling the high tier moves, and basic tactic moves are even outrolling these moves and occasionally even Status-Required moves.

Now being an MA from Pre-Revamp, one thing I was taught was that basically if you interlock the first move you mash was SideKick Combo since it would outrol every move 90% of the time. Right now it's honestly starting to become the same thing again and I think this might wanna get looked into.

#35500000772 04/21/2006 11:24:23 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Yes, I agree with you on the higher level abilities being outrolled about 80% of the time vs basic speed / power attacks. I was thinking this could be by design cause if you land say an extreme falling kick with a hit rate of 75% vs basic speed / power attacks, the fights would not last long. Plus it's harder to land a "harder" technique such as the grandmaster techniques vs. other grandmasters. So when you think about it, it really makes sense to me the way it is now. Notice how much easier it is to land the higher level techniques vs. level 48 and lower character because they don't have the grandmaster tree fully loaded. They may have a few grandmaster moves to use, but until they reach level 50, they are not a true grandmaster. That's the way I feel about it. U risk missing with a big damage move and being countered with a simple move that does not so much damage. However if u do land the big one, don't keep trying to land it again over and over. You will more than likely lose to somebody using regular moves to put you in a state.

#35500000773 04/21/2006 11:56:08 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

What is your vitality at?

#35500000776 04/21/2006 15:26:44 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

The lower-level karate moves always had that kind of role, but personally i would like some timers set on abilities.

I seriously don't like it when i see more "special" moves in combat than normal ones, and karate needs more accuracy too.. can barley hit any player with the base karate attack, i swear.

#35500000777 04/21/2006 17:56:21 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Specials dont roll any higher than a regular attack like speed, power or grab so theres no reason why one would be more successful than the next. There isnt a bonus applied to specials. Most of the dev responses ive seen about threads like this is you need to test this 1000 times before you can get an accurate measurement.

What makes specials "special" are the different states they create like powerless or stun and the amount of damage they can do compared to a regular attack.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-21-2006 10:01 PM

#35500000778 04/21/2006 18:07:01 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Dude i know what you mean about the karate. Im always having to use my specials moves....never getting any states and then i run outa IS and im pwned.

#35500000780 04/21/2006 23:11:48 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

he he. You wouldn't happen to be fighting Kung fu GM's by any chance? You should look at the basic buffs of a particular style, this includes guns and hackers and so on and so on. Kung fu is more accurate than karate, so more often than not you will be hit by them, however, when you do hit Karate GM's will cause more damage. This works for other trees too, but I've only just woken up and can't be bothered (sorry peeps). cya all jacked in :smileyvery-happy:

Message Edited by CHRIS2005yeah on 04-22-2006 12:12 AM

#35500000781 04/22/2006 01:17:58 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Dang it, I just wrote a long post about this but that dang bug came back!!!! So I kept it short and sweet.

I for one have to disagree, KFGM, doesn not give higher acuuracy rolls, what it does gime is a bonus on defensive rolls. So if you are combat roll is not higher then the defensive roll, then you will loose.

#35500000784 04/22/2006 06:42:13 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

I don't know, i use martial arts prowess, power tactic and karate/karate gm buff to do insane dmg. I can wipe through kungfu pretty easily.

Anyhow, the special thing about specials is that they cut off the oponent's ability to land a hit on you for that round so instead of both players getting an attack and defense roll, one player lands a very strong attack and the other one gets to do nothing until the next round... To top it off they do more damage than other attacks and their states are useful too.

#35500000787 04/22/2006 12:08:10 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

There is now more to combat than spamming specials........... which is a real good thing!

#35500000788 04/22/2006 12:30:11 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

No, i remember someone saying that abilities still beat all and from my experience, interlock is definetly all about spamming abilities.

#35500000789 04/22/2006 15:38:48 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

A couple of corrections:

- Initiative (Influenced by Vitality) only matters when it's Special vs. Special, the rough way to think of it is:

Accuracy + Initiative versus the other guy's Accuracy + Initiative

For a special versus a normal move or a regular attack versus another regular attack it's your Accuracy versus their Defense (both checks happen during one IL round, meaning two misses, two hits, or one of each are possible).

- The other misconception (that I as well had for sometime in testing) is that by saying Zero-Sum combat, a Special will always win. That's not the case, it's just in the case of a special versus another special, only one special will go through. Now, do specials have some Accuracy bonuses on them (as they did before), maybe, but we'd need to test that.

The correct phrase would be: When two specials are used in the same round, you have Zero-Sum, one will miss, one will hit.

Message Edited by Cal on 04-22-2006 04:39 PM

#35500000790 04/22/2006 19:28:16 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Specials have no extra accuracy bonuses applied to them. The devs confirmed this a while back when ep was still up.

Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-22-2006 11:29 PM

#35500000794 04/23/2006 01:25:24 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Renesis13B wrote:
Specials have no extra accuracy bonuses applied to them. The devs confirmed this a while back when ep was still up.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-22-2006 11:29 PM

Yeah, it's just through Initiative, which we don't know if it's a 1-to-1 relationship with Accuracy and Defense (thank you no combat information).

#35500000801 04/23/2006 07:05:57 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

i thought special vs special was decided strictly by initiative.. now that i think about it im not 100% sure of that. we all know that its involved with specials but i suppose the bottom line is, we just dont know precisely how =)

#35500000802 04/23/2006 10:10:09 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

I have experienced this as well and have a theory about it.

I think the hacker negative roll is being applied to all trees. They said they put in a decrease in hacker rolls in IL the higher level the ability was. For example, a level 17 hacker ability cast by a 50 would go through much more often than a level 46 one cast by a 50. Like I said, I think this is being applied to all trees in IL. It's pretty hard to test though.

#35500000804 04/23/2006 12:41:11 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

KivoOnline wrote:

I have experienced this as well and have a theory about it.

I think the hacker negative roll is being applied to all trees. They said they put in a decrease in hacker rolls in IL the higher level the ability was. For example, a level 17 hacker ability cast by a 50 would go through much more often than a level 46 one cast by a 50. Like I said, I think this is being applied to all trees in IL. It's pretty hard to test though.

OMG no way, if id a known that id be usein my lower abs more often, as for the specials sorry but you confuse me, the two specials ive heard frog talk about it being a zero sum after people asking was it compleatly removed and he stated it wasn't "compleatly" removed because of this.

#35500000805 04/23/2006 12:47:26 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Specials are only zero sum when it is special vs special. If that happens, it uses attack vs attack rolls. Any other time it uses attack vs defense. Is that clear?

#35500000825 04/24/2006 08:52:41 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Normal vs. Normal: both roll accuracy vs. defense

Special vs. Normal: both roll accuracy vs. defense, but if the special move wins, the normal move doesn't go through

Special vs. Special: accuracy + initiative vs. accuracy + initiative.

little known fact: You only get initiative from using the
Desperation ability. If neither person is using Desperation, then it's
just accuracy vs. accuracy, much like the old combat system (except
that it's the appropriate kind of accuracy for your attack, rather than
just MCT)

I didn't find that little known fact until last friday :smileysurprised:

#35500000826 04/24/2006 09:00:56 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Frog what exactly does the Desperation ability do? Is it like 3-4 point buff to hopefully tip the fight in your favor or what?

#35500000827 04/24/2006 09:02:47 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Depends on your bonuses, also It's higher if activated when below 50% health.

#35500000828 04/24/2006 09:08:11 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

HCFrog wrote:

little known fact: You only get initiative from using the Desperation ability. If neither person is using Desperation, then it's just accuracy vs. accuracy, much like the old combat system (except that it's the appropriate kind of accuracy for your attack, rather than just MCT)

I didn't find that little known fact until last friday :smileysurprised:

That's not actually true. There is a passive spy ability that gives initiative.

#35500000829 04/24/2006 09:29:52 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Can't edit. SMILEY

Nvm, I think it was changed, removed, or I was wrong. SMILEY

#35500000831 04/24/2006 09:46:48 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

there's also clothes that gives bonuses to initiative.

like the Widows Moor Glasses does...thus, why it's a good thing for an MA to use cause more than likely MA's will have more of a chance of rolling special vs special because they're an interlock class.

Which brings me to a problem I've been seeing. For interlock classes, having more vitality (bonus to initiative) is very important cause of the zero-sum of special vs special rounds. Most likely when people get into interlock they immidiately use a special to get the first hit. Thus, why its important to have a high vitality (initiative) plus specific clothes that gives buffs to initiative plus Desperation. Also since its accuracy + initiative, its important to combine all 3 trees in order to stack the accuracy base bonuses from all three.

this was a little concerning having vitality be very important due to the many times that MA's roll special vs. special.

#35500000832 04/24/2006 11:23:19 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

If Im reading this correctly Initiative is useless unless your using the desperation ability? So if desperation isnt running you dont get any bonuses from initiative?

HCFrog wrote:

little known fact: You only get initiative from using the
Desperation ability. If neither person is using Desperation, then it's
just accuracy vs. accuracy, much like the old combat system (except
that it's the appropriate kind of accuracy for your attack, rather than
just MCT)

I didn't find that little known fact until last friday :smileysurprised:

#35500000833 04/24/2006 12:56:33 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Renesis13B wrote:
If Im reading this
correctly Initiative is useless unless your using the desperation
ability? So if desperation isnt running you dont get any bonuses
from initiative?

That's correct.

Like all of the influences, it needs an active upgrade to apply its
bonus to. Desperation is the only ability that applies any Initiative.

#35500000834 04/24/2006 13:22:57 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

HCFrog wrote:

Renesis13B wrote:
If Im reading this
correctly Initiative is useless unless your using the desperation
ability? So if desperation isnt running you dont get any bonuses
from initiative?

That's correct.

Like all of the influences, it needs an active upgrade to apply its
bonus to. Desperation is the only ability that applies any Initiative.

Then dont you think you should remove the timer on it?

#35500000835 04/24/2006 19:44:56 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

Warboy wrote: A good idea.

/agree

#35500000836 04/24/2006 22:16:23 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

KivoOnline wrote:

Warboy wrote: A good idea.

/agree

/highfive

#35500000838 04/25/2006 02:54:43 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

the best way to fix the overly severe hacker interlock nerf is to add +10 initiative, in points, to a hacker ab which is fairly far down the tree so that hybrids cant reach it. now wouldnt that just be hilarious? =D

#35500000844 04/25/2006 11:33:09 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

*CENSORED*, my threads have all been going up empty though I type plenty of words?

*FRUSTRATED*

Message Edited by Jilted_1 on 04-25-2006 12:34 PM

#35500000853 04/25/2006 17:24:48 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

see that? its a sign that DN1 agrees with me. none may refute me!$% =D

#35500000890 04/28/2006 20:57:25 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

little known fact: You only get initiative from using the Desperation ability. If neither person is using Desperation, then it's just accuracy vs. accuracy, much like the old combat system (except that it's the appropriate kind of accuracy for your attack, rather than just MCT)

So what if 1 person is using desparation. It becomes Accuracy + Initiative VS. Accuracy, correct?

According to this, unless you use desparation, all those % bonuses to initiative from clothing or passive abilities, such as karate expertise or something. That Initiative Bonus % means nothing without desparation active?

In other words, say I don't plan on using desparation, my attributes are better spent somewhere besides maxing out Vitality for more initiative bonus?

Message Edited by jeffrah on 04-29-2006 12:57 AM

#35500000891 04/28/2006 21:52:04 Re: One Problem Lots of people seem to notice - Special moves arent that 'special'

the short answer is yes. it seems like they made all these changes in the form of percentages without actually THINKING about how the numbers work themselves out. initiative and many other so-called bonuses (influences, technically) arent doing anything at all.