The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

#35500000297 03/25/2006 22:47:27 The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

First off, i'm Montoia of Les Enfants Terribles on the Vector server. Most know me as quite the ruthless assassin on the current combat system. I've never used any sort of hacks and the other offensive trees I own are Duelist, SMG Specialist, and the Martial Arts trees. Needless to say, I've invested plenty of time into the Master Assassin tree in live, and it is my favorite of them all. It takes strategy to be a good assassin, especially if you don't use MKT as well, like me.

So I was a bit dismayed when I heard how bad the new tree is in CR2.0. I've been playing with them, and i'm confident now that I can stand with the best of the fighters, almost undefeated in any of the duels i've had in QA.

So to all you nay-sayers: The Spy tree is not broke.

First off, as you should already know, Spys rely on Thrown stats. Currently I have 30 Focus, 30 Perception, and 13 Vitality. As Machete told me "Max out two stats and throw the rest in Vitality." Been good so far.

Secondly, as much as I hate to admit it, Spy's will not be using interlock as much as we will ranged. Meaning if you are like me and simply wanted Master Assassin, you're outta luck. That tree has very little in free-fire attacks that don't require being stealthed. The Master Assassin tree is now secondary, as in my opinion and trial and error, Master Knife Thrower will be primary.

So if you're gonna go this route as a MKT/Assassin, you will find out that Find Weakness is your friend. Unlike live, it raises your Thrown damage, as opposed to lowering the targets resists. More damage is always a plus, noting the reduced damage output of MKT's. And of course with using ranged attacks, as well as sneak attacks, use the POWER tactic! It makes a world of difference!

Deadly Throw, Neuro dart, and Sever Artery all lower movement speed. So in the case of /duels, they are a must. A common tactic I use is as soon as the duel starts, turn to Grab tactic, break shield, might take another hit to break in some cases. Switch to Power, then hit with a Neuro dart. Suplex, then finish the poor **bleep** with knives in IL. Roll out and apply a punt for more fun!

In PvP, things get more complicated. As a merv, I will be on the recieving end of a zerg, so stealth is always handy. And now with our new Shield Jammer tool, killing will be much easier! When sneaking on an unsuspecting target, using the shield jammer will reveal you, but only for a second before you go back to sneak. MAKE SURE TO HAVE YOUR OWN EVADE ON!. 1 second is more than enough time for the target to grab you into IL. Then things get much tougher. Anywho, get thru his shield, Suplex or Diving Frankenstiener for max damage in Power tactic, use Backroll Escape to ensure a withdrawl from IL, and finish off with Free-Fire knives. Nothing to it.

This is only a basic guide to the Spy tree, i'm still figuring a lot of it out myself. Any additions/suggestions are welcome! I hope I helped someone out there with this! SMILEY

#35500000299 03/26/2006 01:20:31 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Archived image unavailable: delivers.html

#35500000300 03/26/2006 02:04:08 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Very informative indeed

/ThumbsUp

#35500000301 03/26/2006 05:28:49 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Great to see someone who likes the new spy tree. Good louck with it SMILEY

#35500000302 03/26/2006 06:28:29 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Good work Montoia the MKT branch does seem to be the better of the two, PvE I dont have any issues though for PvP I dont think we should just accept the Assassin has to remain so ineffective in isolation. I was also concerned by a thread elsewhere mind, that suggested the Suplex was to be nerfed as that seems pivotal in generating an adequet build.

#35500000303 03/26/2006 08:28:43 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

I doubt Suplex will be nerfed. It's not like other trees can spend 4 memory in this tree to get the ability. It's a stealth attack, and it does the damage it should.

Message Edited by Montoia on 03-26-200608:29 AM

#35500000304 03/26/2006 13:54:21 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Mon the spy tree is broken. I'll explain...As you clearly stated all spy damage is based off of the Thrown style. This is far different than the old system as there were only two main styles, Melee and Ranged. However, in cr2.0, there are still only two styles usable in ranged combat and interlock. Those are of course melee ranged/IL and ballistic range/IL. This presents a major problem for a lot of spies, even if you are able to kill the majority of your opponents. All your specials will do Thrown damage, but once you IL or shoot at them, it reverts to melee/ballistic. Your stats and abilities are most likely not geared towards melee or ballistic attacks if you are a spy. Therefore, when you shoot at someone you will do very little damage, in my experience below 50 usually. However, gunman and martial artists can do hundreds with standard ranged or IL attacks.

My suggestion, which I have stated multiple times, is to make a spy combat system. This could be done in two relatively simple ways that I can see. First, you could make it look exactly like the Self Defense style, but with the spy buffs and any damage delt by it would be Thrown damage. Second, you could do basically the same thing but make freefire spy stuff look like thrown knives. I think either way would work, but something has to be done.

Last, but certainly not least, is single 1 on 1 IL. I have stated before that spies who rely on IL abilities such as Bulldog are more than severly nerfed with this. If the target is already in IL the spy cannot do any damage with IL spy attacks. The way to fix this is to make the IL attacks become freefire attacks when the target is already in IL. The attacks would still require Stealthed and to be behind the target, and would have a 4 second use timer so they would do the same damage as if they were in IL.

Spy may be decent in duels and okay in PvP, but go try to mission with it. Try to take on a few NPCs your level or above without HJ'ing away and coming back. The devs have stated that no build should have to HJ away from a group of 3 NPCs the same level as the player, so it's a good test of balance.

#35500000305 03/26/2006 15:15:42 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Even in live, the Spy tree is definatly not for missioning. And I have taken plenty of NPC's my level out using my build. I do prefer the old spy tree over the new one, but they're not going to re-revamp it. This is just how it is now.

My 'Spy Style' martial arts lets me contend with Grandmasters. Not sure about anyone else. I'm rather starting to like the new spy tree.

#35500000306 03/26/2006 20:27:21 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

like hackers..spies are not meant for interlock..they are supposed to be a quick hit for damage and withdrawl. nothin should be done to make them more effective in interlock. i do agree that some of the spy abilitys should be able to be used in freefire..like bulldog or punt..but i think the animations that would require will keep this from happening. good post monty

#35500000309 03/27/2006 02:56:59 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Broke or not the spy tree has been overnerfed, Spy's have got a raw deal relative to all other tree's and it should be a priority for attention by the devs.

#35500000310 03/27/2006 05:14:42 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Good explaination, but everyone else is whining but they shouldnt be spy is not a main tree meant for interlock

#35500000311 03/27/2006 06:22:27 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

I really can't understand everyone's claims that the spy is broken. Fine, your moves do thrown damage, your stats are specced for thrown damage but hey guess what, if you are a spy worth your salt your stats are also specced for Melee Damage Resistance, the same stats ALSO just so happens to increase melee damage. Ergo even when moving to just your normal punches and kicks you can crank out decent damage. If you still don't think that's enough, every spy tree now has a host of knife attacks they can fall back on which do your thrown damage. If you make good use of the shield jammer then you can have your target defenceless and unable resist your attacks.

As for how to keep landing those sneak attacks, the distance you need between you and a hostile to activate sneak or invisability successfully is not all that far. I also reccomend looking into the master shadow tree as it has the highest DPS on a sneak attack I have seen (I think it's Driving Frankensteiner). They have also added ranged Sneak Attacks which are a VERY nice thing to have, espescially if your target aint expecting spies. I took 1,200 damage off a leg throw because I forgot to turn on my Hyper-Sense.

As far as I'm concerned the spy tree HAS improved, several formerly useless branches are now versetaille and VERY handy and over all it can just kick butt now espescially with the new interlock system that doesn't punish you for low combat tactics by ensuring that you never win a round.

#35500000312 03/27/2006 07:15:23 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Pyro read my post on the previous page. I explained that even though you may have a little of the right stats, it doesn't do much because your title buff and other built in buffs of the tree are only thrown damage buffs, no other types of damage is applied.

#35500000314 03/27/2006 11:10:13 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Never said it would keep you from being WHOOPED by an MA in Interlock. Hell as a spy you should get out of interlock ASAP, I'm just saying it should HELP a little.

Besides that when you need a quick escape you have back roll, side flip, Smoke Bomb, Canny Strike that can get you out of interlock in a hurry. I'm still saying Spy is not broken or useless or unbalanced, people just need to remember that it is NOT a martial arts tree and it has a totally different play style.

#35500000318 03/27/2006 15:27:06 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

For anyone who thinks the Spy Tree is too weak:

Go on the Playtest Server right now. There are a host of Spy and Hybrid Spy builds owning PvP right now. It's to the point where you can't get a straight fight in anymore, because every MA has some spy tossed in too. Spy works fine.

#35500000322 03/27/2006 16:24:33 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Absolutely. You just have to know how to use it. It's incredible how much damage I've dealt with an ordinary Assassin/MKT build (in this priority).

Oh, and Krog. It's a bonus that Spies now have their own damage type. I tried a pure Spy attribute setting, so I got max Thrown damage, accuracy, defense, resistance and together with Find Weakness I'm doing LOTS of damage because Thrown resistance and defense is the lest used or accumulated damage type, if you get what I'm trying to say.

Most have ballistic, melee or viral resistances/defenses, but nearly no one has maxed thrown resistances yet. So it is a piece of cake for spies right now. Find weakness weird re-use timer definitely helps with that (same re-use timer as duration).

And if you're a Spy you DON'T want to use any other type of damage beside Thrown, because no one has thrown resistances... hehe.

>revolt_

#35500000338 03/28/2006 20:59:28 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Yup, I have to agree to revolt...... an 800damage leg throw is realy.... woa :smileysurprised:
I think, the spy tree is now good balanced, I had fight against some MAs and Gunmans..... some were realy easy to fight but another one was extremly hard or I had get no chance to beat him and I had left the combat :smileytongue:

But, I can hear the voices crying that the spy now is overpowered and need to bee fixed...... there is a fix, in the awakened tree. There is one little abilitie for everyone to get enough thrown defense. So the spy cant hit you with an knife, cant lower your movemant speed and cant do an sneak attack becouse you can go in interlock with him....

My actualy tactic is:
Get behind my enemie and uses the shild jamming device.
Then Im give him an Suplex (~1500Dmg)
In the Suplex Animation I do the find weakness and do the leg sweep (~800Dmg)
Then one or 2 knifes in Interlock and he is death ^^
But Im preffer the Canny Strike (~500Dmg) as the finnishing move ^^

#35500000455 04/01/2006 15:15:30 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

this is the LO i have been playing as since cr2 began and to be fair i have been enjoying it. i decided to break away from the traditional MA look i was thinking of taking up. is this step 1 in keeping me here who knows? still depends on the content lol. Good guide montoia.

#35500000459 04/01/2006 17:58:12 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

only thing with the spy tree is IS >< i dont like to wear IS clothes due to the fact that id rather hav resists and not die. So only get it from my sakura bandana. So can usually kill around 2 people before havin to sit somewer to regen.

"People who think they know it all, really annoy those of us who do."

#35500000464 04/02/2006 23:53:54 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

So what we have here is half the people bitching about Spy being nerfed, and half saying t's overpowered :smileyindifferent:

All I know is that I get my arse kicked by Daelim when he's using spy SMILEY

#35500000465 04/03/2006 04:47:36 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Very informative, Montoia! This thread...delivers. SMILEY

#35500000468 04/03/2006 09:25:51 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

RockyB wrote:
So what we have here is half the people bitching about Spy being nerfed, and half saying t's overpowered

That means it's balanced! SMILEY

#35500000469 04/03/2006 10:16:28 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

zing lol

i picked up this board because i saw that post by someone saying it was too over powered... i don't think they've played it yet! i stayed alive just as much as my buddies at the event, and died just as much too. get some thrown resist and keep your shield up!

#35500000471 04/03/2006 10:55:28 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Tried to edit my first post here, but I guess it's too old to, but i'll just post here.

Lately i've been using 30 reason instead of 30 focus, for the max damage I can get, stat wise, on Thrown. I don't even use guns. Normally if I need to use a ranged attack, I used Find Weakness + Paralyzing Throw. Does a nice n' quick 600 dmg. SMILEY

Sure it eats a bit more IS, but with the maxed Reason, it regens pretty fast. There are also a selection of hats that you can wear to raise your IS regen. Personally I use my new security hat <3

EDIT: Somoene mentioned Canny Strike as a finishing move... that's just bunk. Canny Strike uses WAY too much IS for the damage it does. My most lethal combo is, if you're like me and using Master Assassin/Shadow, is Shield Jammer ---> Diving Frankenstien ---> Find Weakness during animation ---> Leg Sweep ---> Earn CQ.

When you combine Find Weakness with Leg Sweep, it does close to 1200 damage. A finishing move if i've ever heard of one. :smileywink:

Message Edited by Montoia on 04-03-200601:59 PM

#35500000472 04/03/2006 11:30:01 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

0.o i forget what the stats are (dammit i'm at 'work')

i put thirty each in the thrown acc one and the other one that gives thrown dmg? rest go to the initiative bonus one.

pvp: more likely than not i'm not the instigator (not good enough yet)

find weakness, neuro, deadly, subduing, crippling, deadly. usually does it.

#35500000481 04/04/2006 03:04:51 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Money has prevented me from trying too much of the MasterShadow tree, but legsweep is a real gift if it hits..... does sacrificing focus mean you are less effective in IL? I had read that only ballistic or Melee accuracy determined IL rolls?

#35500000483 04/04/2006 05:01:54 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Unless i'm mistaken, using Spy style still uses Thrown. Hell, if not it doesnt really matter. In IL it's generally Leg sweep and Paralyzing throw anyway, which run on Thrown.

If Spy style uses anything but Thrown, then there are some sorry MA's and Gunners out there. :smileywink:

#35500000484 04/04/2006 05:04:53 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Froggy pwned SMILEY

#35500000567 04/09/2006 08:12:04 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

I really like the CR2 and the spy tree. I'm almost 40 and I can hang with my faction in PvP now. I have a place and I rarely die at the same time I don't do much damage but I have a roll and can help out in PvP with 50's. As for missioning I have no problems I dont do assassinations due to not being a main tank nor main DPS. I do retrevial's on hard and I can run those all day and not die so if your haveing a problems running mission's then run what suits your profession. As for PvP and such with people that think spies got nerfed a good example is the movie " The Last Samurai " Ninja's ( which are spies ) where a force to be reconed with when attacking from a distance and from hiding, but when in close combat they where good but not against the samurai's which were more close combat orientated. I ATM run Shadow / Knife Thrower or Shadow / Assassain and I'm loveing it more and more. When I first started playing my heart was set to spy but would often play kung-fu / gunman / sniper, since CR2 I am waiting to sell them to the vendors. Spies rule in thier enviorment and more if your that good. Thanks for the guide it is great. As for tatics I use is I most the time run with others while PvPing ( no zerg squads ) and pick targets. Being lower level and not being able to do alot of damage I Disable Shields and Land States on them then move to the next. Most the time I have someone else interlock them after I break the sheild.

#35500001035 05/23/2006 06:19:54 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Ok, Im new to the spy tree and the game, but on reading the thread I have one main question,

most of the tactics mentioned use serveral atk's in a row that require you tobe in the sneaking state like mentioned here:

Montoia wrote:
Tried to edit my first post here, but I guess it's too old to, but i'll just post here.

Lately
i've been using 30 reason instead of 30 focus, for the max damage I can
get, stat wise, on Thrown. I don't even use guns. Normally if I need to
use a ranged attack, I used Find Weakness + Paralyzing Throw. Does a
nice n' quick 600 dmg. Sure it eats a bit more IS, but with the
maxed Reason, it regens pretty fast. There are also a selection of hats
that you can wear to raise your IS regen. Personally I use my new
security hat <3

EDIT: Somoene mentioned Canny Strike as
a finishing move... that's just bunk. Canny Strike uses WAY too much IS
for the damage it does. My most lethal combo is, if you're like me and
using Master Assassin/Shadow, is Shield Jammer ---> Diving
Frankenstien ---> Find Weakness during animation ---> Leg Sweep
---> Earn CQ.

When you combine Find Weakness with Leg Sweep, it does close to 1200 damage. A finishing move if i've ever heard of one. :smileywink:
Message Edited by Montoia on 04-03-200601:59 PM

Now
how do you achieve this...atm once I atk Im outa the sneaking state and
cant do another tree atk that requires sneak unless I break IL move
away sneak come back?

#35500001038 05/23/2006 19:42:29 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Leg Sweep is an ability down the Shadow tree. It's an IL-only attack. Not to be confused with that weak sneak attack version of Leg Sweep.. i forget the name.

#35500001039 05/23/2006 20:53:31 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

Ahhh, ok thanks for that.

I have a few other question about the spy streams,

I have read some post saying that most MKT's and **bleep** builds also load
Gunman for the RCT, is this needed..is hitting the target and major
problem... ?

Another is the flash bomb skill , what does Blind state acctually
do/mean...I have only try'd this on mobs so far and was wondering
(until I can get a guinea pig friend) what it does to players.

#35500001040 05/23/2006 21:50:23 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

There is no thing as RCT anymore... its Ballistic tactics. And all Spy attacks, including MKT, use Thrown tactics. That being said, MKT has no need for any gunman abilties, unless you really wanna be able to shoot guns.

#35500001041 05/23/2006 22:27:09 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

lol, ok thanks guess Im reading the older threads based on the past combat system...Thanks for answering my nub questions.

One last one and then I just paly and work it out myself.

The weakness buff that I have doesnt show a timer like the ma buffs and
gun buffs. That is no icon appears in the effects line of my hud is
this normal...or is it failing for some reason?

(promise thats the last one)

#35500001043 05/24/2006 09:14:29 Re: The Spy tree and You. A guide to the Assassin.

It's a bug. The re-use timer for Find Weakness is 90sec I think, and for some reason it just does'nt activate at times.