NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

#35400000148 02/18/2006 08:20:43 NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

As we all know now, damage resistance is the key stat. So I loaded up all the ballistic and melee resistance gear I could find. This is a preliminary report, full Mission/NPC balancing report to be posted later.

Level 50 RSI
Melee Resistance 130
Ballistic Resistance 165
Aikido Grand Master/Kung Fu Master
Full Focus/Full Perception remaing in Belief

Earlier in the day on the 17th I was very very happy with the difficulty level of NPCs. In missions set to hard, it wasn't surprise to see someone die. We rallied to help each other and health pills kept the primary tank alive.

The next area of testing was Creston Heights, a neighborhood I've been pushing for high difficulty in. I got REALY excited when I fought clusters of the level 48's there. They were Con Yellow. The single chev's I could plow through pretty quickly, and the double and triple chevs took much longer respectively. The Creston NPC's did around 45 damage per shot which quickly added up when fighting 3 or 4 at a time. It was fast paced and I was popping pills when needed. If they were only Single Chevs no pills needed, double and triple chevs involved sometimes they were needed. Either way, if I didn't pay attention it'd be very easy to die. (Died once out of 20 clusters when the cluster had a triple and two doubles)

After the patch came out on the 17th it was clear they had been watered down. The once respected Watchers were now ankle biting annoyances. The NPCs did 20-25 damage, and their resistance was less. Each move seemed to do about 100 more damage (log review later today). I actually ran around all of Creston Park and pulled all the clusters to me...engaged at least 10 of them that I could count on my screen with little concern. Unfortunately this patch watered them down to the point that the only exciting neighborhood for a level 50 was no longer exciting. They couldn't do enough damage, and they took to much.

So down into the museum I went hoping to find some more trouble. I just dove right into the NPCs at the stairs and pulled all three clusters equalling 9 level 50 NPCs of various chevrons. I could at least tell the difference between the chevs this time...but I unfortunately didn't die. I did this several times...pulling mutliple clusters. Health pills were needed but taking on 9-12 NPCs and not denying leaves little to report. SMILEY

I look forward to the next rebalancing. I really enjoyed the difficulty level of the NPCs in Creston when it was challenging to solo. We so desperately need something to challenge us at level 50. /target developer ; /plead

#35400000151 02/18/2006 08:52:49 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I think it's a good balance. I doubt you will have all that resistance clothing on when the top items are converted and also if those guys used hacks they would have probably toasted you.

#35400000154 02/18/2006 10:03:51 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I see no point in wearing anything but resistance clothing. Accuracy doesn't matter much. You can only get damage in bonuses and all the gear is mostly 1 or 3% bonuses which means nothing.

My viral resistance is very high also. If I can pull all of Creston Heights Park and not die...there still needs to be readjustments.

#35400000180 02/20/2006 01:05:09 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I'd be more interested in how the heck you got that much resistance. I must have rubbish clothes, I'm only running about 70 of each SMILEY

#35400000182 02/20/2006 05:12:59 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

We should dodge bullets rather than absorb their damage, I like the current balance (it could even make npc's a tad too easy) but feel its not achieved in the best manner to remain consistent with reality or the movies.

(sorry for repeating this i thought i had already responded on this thread!)

#35400000183 02/20/2006 08:47:00 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Tytanya_MxO wrote:
We should dodge bullets rather than absorb their damage, I like the current balance (it could even make npc's a tad too easy) but feel its not achieved in the best manner to remain consistent with reality or the movies.
(sorry for repeating this i thought i had already responded on this thread!)

/agree

unfortunately, that's not the way CR2 is designed =/

Can't speak for level 50 balance, but at 35 I've found that I can take on 2-3 con orange NPCs in missions with only a moderate hazard to my health (2 if one is more than 1 chevron, otherwise 3), using Rifleman.

Hackers seem to hit me with about 15% of their attacks, and I haven't gone out of my way to add protective buffs.

Seems that mobs are just slightly too easy with this latest patch, around lvl 35 at least.

#35400000184 02/20/2006 12:04:48 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I disagree, i think this difficulty is right where it should be. Npc's are grunts, we should be able to beat the tar our of them at will.

But i do wish it was alittle more like the old system, what's the point of allowing lower levels charachters the ability to hit you if they can't do any serious dmg?.. i suppose it does give them a chance of giving them a status effect and probably getting them slaughtered if their in a fight with an Ma.

#35400000193 02/21/2006 14:00:15 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I was trying out the new NPC balance patch on QA in Union Hill, next to the monument. I was fighting Hellions (level 3 SMILEY

, and I'm level 40 with aikido/kung fu hybrid loaded. I fought one opponent - a Hellion Thrasher, and when I was about to do my finishing move, he used the attack "Succubus's Kiss", which immediately took away 2,560 hp, killing me in one hit. I /bug'd it.

I went back after the bug report, and fought another Hellion, I can only remember that he was not a Thrasher. I dispatched him, and fought a Hellion Thrasher, and the same thing happened. I got hit by a "Succubus's Kiss" attack, and promptly died. Which means I was killed twice, when I attempted to kill three gang members two levels below me, in about five minutes.

I am not sure if this was the same before the NPC balance update, but I've not heard of any attacks that are one hit kills intentionally. Any one else experienced this? Any answers are welcomed. :smileyhappy:

#35400000196 02/21/2006 15:59:47 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

ChambersOfShaolin wrote:

So down into the museum I went hoping to find some more trouble. I just dove right into the NPCs at the stairs and pulled all three clusters equalling 9 level 50 NPCs of various chevrons. I could at least tell the difference between the chevs this time...but I unfortunately didn't die. I did this several times...pulling mutliple clusters. Health pills were needed but taking on 9-12 NPCs and not denying leaves little to report.

I have a hard time believing you took on 10+ npcs at the creston museum without dieing. You must have been popping pills like crazy. I have 181 bdr and each hit was taking like 30 damage. They can shoot every 2 secs (could be wrong on this) so the free fire attacks alone would be 300 damage every 2 secs.

Do you think a full team of 6 can kill their way through that museum now or would it take more?

#35400000197 02/21/2006 16:10:25 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

This would be a very good test to run. Put togather a group of 6 with a balanced team in mind and go to it. :smileyhappy:

Then variations. I would definately like to know how the player experience is. In the Creston Heights exile hideout.

#35400000206 02/22/2006 00:14:57 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I'll meet up with you tomorrow man. I'm loaded focus/perception for max ballistic resist and around 190 ballistic resist. I was popping pills but yes I solo'd 12 NPC lvl 50's in Creston with Aikido/Kung Fu loadout.

Anyone else want to join up? Prob mid afternoon EST for me is best.

Message Edited by ChambersOfShaolin on 02-22-200603:15 AM

#35400000209 02/22/2006 18:57:26 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Big thanks to all the people who were there in Creston! That was fun SMILEY

Oh and after trying to take down the boss of the Seraphim, I think anybody who wants to test the PB4 should probably wait until I get a chance to meddle with them some :smileysurprised:

#35400000210 02/22/2006 20:50:51 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

We had a Collective group try the Creston dungeon when the servers finally became stable. However, this was before the damage values were properly set, and the NPCs had been rebalanced. We were able to make it down to the boss no problem, in fact, quite easily.

Haven't had a chance to try it lately however, but it sounds like others have SMILEY

#35400000211 02/22/2006 22:39:54 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I can probably give you a hand with that, MK. Just give me a time for mid-afternoon so I can wake up... (Hey, gimme a break... I work until 7am. SMILEY

)

#35400000212 02/22/2006 23:50:54 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

LOL Right on Fen, I'm sure through the proper channels I can get ahold of you SMILEY

We decided at the Machine meeting last night we'd run some testing at 4pm EST and again at 10pm EST. Sorry you missed the meeting dude. You to Cal.

Yea Cal the dungeon wa toughedned up quite a bit between update 4 and 5, and sounds like it was tweaked a bit for 6. It took 3 or 4 of us at least 20-30 minutes to get to the bottom. Lots of fun. That report will come tomorrow SMILEY

MK

#35400000213 02/22/2006 23:54:42 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Yeah, unfortunately, Wednesday nights tend to be rather bad for me. But I'll try to wake up so I can help out with the 4pm run.

#35400000215 02/23/2006 07:37:29 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

ChambersOfShaolin wrote:
As we all know now, damage resistance is the key stat. So I loaded up all the ballistic and melee resistance gear I could find. This is a preliminary report, full Mission/NPC balancing report to be posted later.

Level 50 RSI
Melee Resistance 130
Ballistic Resistance 165
Aikido Grand Master/Kung Fu Master
Full Focus/Full Perception remaing in Belief

Earlier in the day on the 17th I was very very happy with the difficulty level of NPCs. In missions set to hard, it wasn't surprise to see someone die. We rallied to help each other and health pills kept the primary tank alive.

The next area of testing was Creston Heights, a neighborhood I've been pushing for high difficulty in. I got REALY excited when I fought clusters of the level 48's there. They were Con Yellow. The single chev's I could plow through pretty quickly, and the double and triple chevs took much longer respectively. The Creston NPC's did around 45 damage per shot which quickly added up when fighting 3 or 4 at a time. It was fast paced and I was popping pills when needed. If they were only Single Chevs no pills needed, double and triple chevs involved sometimes they were needed. Either way, if I didn't pay attention it'd be very easy to die. (Died once out of 20 clusters when the cluster had a triple and two doubles)

After the patch came out on the 17th it was clear they had been watered down. The once respected Watchers were now ankle biting annoyances. The NPCs did 20-25 damage, and their resistance was less. Each move seemed to do about 100 more damage (log review later today). I actually ran around all of Creston Park and pulled all the clusters to me...engaged at least 10 of them that I could count on my screen with little concern. Unfortunately this patch watered them down to the point that the only exciting neighborhood for a level 50 was no longer exciting. They couldn't do enough damage, and they took to much.

So down into the museum I went hoping to find some more trouble. I just dove right into the NPCs at the stairs and pulled all three clusters equalling 9 level 50 NPCs of various chevrons. I could at least tell the difference between the chevs this time...but I unfortunately didn't die. I did this several times...pulling mutliple clusters. Health pills were needed but taking on 9-12 NPCs and not denying leaves little to report.

I look forward to the next rebalancing. I really enjoyed the difficulty level of the NPCs in Creston when it was challenging to solo. We so desperately need something to challenge us at level 50. /target developer ; /plead

No disrespect intended, but you're making a very wrongheaded argument....equating increased difficulty of mobs with new content. It's not, and it's a poor substitute. You forget there are players who are less than level 50, and that SOE might actually want to increase the player base of this game at some point. You can't do that if lowbies get constantly pwned then quit the game in frustartion, which will happen if you keep the NPC balance way skewed too hard to please a few bored 50's.

#35400000217 02/23/2006 08:00:56 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I'm referring to end-game not lowbies. Currently on Live only PB box 4's are challenging. You can take out several level 52 double chev without getting touched.

The "content" is an area where 50's can go to still have a challenging fight. As your levels increase you go to more difficult neighborhoods (nothing new there for MMOs) but in MxO when you hit 50...nothing is hard anymore so people just farm or pvp.

#35400000218 02/23/2006 08:02:37 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

HCFrog wrote:
Big thanks to all the people who were there in Creston! That was fun

Oh and after trying to take down the boss of the Seraphim, I think anybody who wants to test the PB4 should probably wait until I get a chance to meddle with them some :smileysurprised:

Thanks dude! That was awesome!! I learned quite a few things and had a blast :smileywink:

#35400000239 02/24/2006 00:42:44 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Okay, Masterkiller, Th3ra, xdarkdragonx, and myself ran Creston this afternoon. dark and I were both MAs, MK was a hacker, and Th3ra a buffer. We got through to the end pretty easy. There were a few times that some of us almost died, but rez nor pills were ever needed.

From my observations, MK was absolutely dominating with his hacks, averaging about 1800 hp an attack. Also, it seemed that the enemies got hit with the evade bug quite often... some were even in an evade status while in interlock.

All in all, I had a lot of fun, but I didn't feel that it was challenging in the slightest.

#35400000247 02/25/2006 03:52:03 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I don't know but in my opinion NPCs are terribly nerfed now. I ran a Standard Mission on Hard as SMG/Fu Mix - and honestly I didn't even pay attention to what clothing I was wearing and it was never even a challenge.

LvL 51 Elite Guards did 35 (!) Damage to me with their free fire while I was doing about 5 times as much to them with normal free fire. And then of course I have my 1600-2000 damage Full Auto Redux to boot SMILEY

Then I went to Creston Heights and fought some NPCs outside of the hideout and it was the same - even if they hit me quite often - the damage they were dealing was too low to even make me concerned.

I think after the last update we swayed a little bit too much in the other direction.....

#35400000249 02/25/2006 10:14:56 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Thanks for the feedback. After seeing the latest posts I'm inclined to agree, Miggesch. Fortunately now that we have the system in place I can just tweak numbers in a single place and see what happens SMILEY

#35400000254 02/25/2006 15:06:54 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

seems to be the same with the lower levels too, I started a new character, and though it is nice to breeze through organge mobs easily in neihborhoods, and swiftly get through the missions, you can easly get through the missions with barely a scratch. It is nice not to die every five minutes, but it would be nice to have a little challenge.

#35400000255 02/25/2006 18:04:17 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Well, I always say err on the side of caution. Let's say the pendulum was swung way too far in one direction. Then the pendulum is swung way too far in the other direction. The thing not to do would be to sway it all the way back to the 1st direction. Tweak it but please don't go berzerk. Plus, we have a lot of people who when this hits live they are gonna be stumbling around like babes in the woods with no idea how to deal with mobs yet. So I'd recommend tweaking it back but still erring on the easy side (for the time being) until we all get acclimated. I think this is what you are going for HCFrog? If so, yeah that's a good plan.

#35400000256 02/25/2006 19:48:11 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Naw, I was gonna go berzerk... but, OK SMILEY

Yeah it will just be a small tweak back, really I think it's pretty close to where it should be.

#35400000259 02/26/2006 00:54:17 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Sweet :smileywink:

#35400000260 02/26/2006 00:56:01 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

Should be good times. Even though I like being veritably invincible, a challenge will be nice. SMILEY

#35400000264 02/26/2006 04:50:07 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

One thing I also noticed yesterday and maybe that IS the way it IS in the system or maybe there IS something wrong. I had to farm for some frags last night so that I could finally get to test out the spy tree.

So I killed lvl 18s in Gracy Heights, lower 30s in Historic and then like lvl 38s in Baldwin Heights - and my free fire (again the SMG/Fu Mix) did the SAME damage to all of them. Now of course 150 damage is more devastating to a lvl 18 who probably has 1/2 the health points of a lvl 36 NPC - but it just seemed weird since in the current system the damage you deal is a lot more to lower levels than it is to higher or equal level NPCs.

And also in regards to the Hacker testing. Obviously I tried to use Hacker in order to farm those frags since - hey - what's faster to farm with than Hacker? Well - not anymore. As a lvl 50 Balista/Destroyer I farmed WAY slower than with my SMG/Fu since even NPCs that are 15 lvls below me sometimes deflect 2, 3 or even 4 attacks in a row. That coupled with the fact that IS (and especially IS regen) sucks bigtime currently in CR2 (probably most likely due to the fact that there is no real good clothing to support it) I sometimes ran out of IS before I could kill a group of maybe 4 lvl 35 NPCs. Just judging from that I got the feeling that Hacker will be a dead class once CR2 hits. If it wouldn't pwn so hard just in PvP anymore - ok - I can deal with that - but if I can't even use it effectively for farming anymore - then why use it at all?

#35400000265 02/26/2006 14:48:56 Re: NPC Balance Before/After 2/17 Patch

I think IS regen is a problem with all the trees right now but its really bad as a Ballista. Hopefully the enchanced items we are missing will fix that.