uuum....what?
Hacker in Interlock?
75 posts · 2006-03-18 12:44:39 to 2006-04-27 13:38:28
Use your grey matter.
>revolt_
>revolt_
Slightly back on topic. The hackers definitely need some more "nerfing" in Interlock, the penalty didn't do enough. I think IS costs may need an increase for hackers, and perhaps a reduction for MA, not only does it kill hackers more in IL (as it SHOULD be) but it also puts to bed the MAs complain of not having enough Inner Strength.
Whatever happens, hackers need to be downsized in interlock a little more, i'm afraid to fight them.
Whatever happens, hackers need to be downsized in interlock a little more, i'm afraid to fight them.
Nah, I just think that they should activate the other hacks re-use timers when you use one of the hackers hacks in interlock. Should solve pretty much the problems with hackers in interlock.
>revolt_
>revolt_
True, I thought about saying that, but I wasn't sure if it was implementable or not.
MrMagno - Please stop trying to put the movies in MxO terms. There was no hacking in the movies as we now have in the game. Period. You cannot refute this with a thousand examples. The simple reality of the matter is that hackers were needed as a "wizard-class" to balance this game and make it viable in the MMO market. For that reason, I have no problem with hackers being included in the game, but don't try and use the movies as justification for what hackers can and can't do in the Matrix. No one ever used a direct damage/mind blast attack in any of the movies.
Back on topic, I did some testing today after update 14 with my only offensive hacker tree: Howitzer/Destroyer. Using Howitzer/Destroyer against the Stratford Campus Corporate Security mobs, I discovered some interesting things. In interlock I was only able to land one hack attack out of about 10 attempts. This seems about right, but I was not using the oft-mentioned Upgrade Attacks ab, so maybe that should be more closely examined by someone better able. Plague Zone landed with good regularity, but seems to be broken somehow, as it was re-usable after only about 10 seconds, where the effect should last 30 seconds. Outside of interlock, I now understand the complaints about Devastation Field. A long timer = big damage, so I won't say shorten the timer, but I think you should be able to target Dev Field on a spot on the ground. Even Bottleneck Field gives you barely enough time to get off a Dev Field before your target flees the scene, and if you get interupted once, its game over. Leave the timer, and have it target like Smoke Bomb - everybody wins.
I agree that the way to fix this is through clever use of re-use timers. No one wants to deny hackers their ability to fight, but the zero-sum nature of special moves must be considered. If a hacker can use a special every single turn, then they essentially are evading the most fundamental change in CR 2.0. Special move spam forces zero-sum and must be stopped.
In closing I would just like to say that I do not find a "food chain" to be an attractive or desirable feature in a game. No tree or build should simply outclass the others. Everyone should have their strengths and their weaknesses. On a real battlefield there are many sources of unfairness. One army will always be better prepared, with better equipment, superior numbers, and/or tactics. The Matrix transcends this. It is a battlefield of the mind, where the only limit to your ability is your own perspective. Therefore, there cannot be a "food chain", we each create our own reality, and should have an even chance of success with our chosen builds in our favored situations.
Back on topic, I did some testing today after update 14 with my only offensive hacker tree: Howitzer/Destroyer. Using Howitzer/Destroyer against the Stratford Campus Corporate Security mobs, I discovered some interesting things. In interlock I was only able to land one hack attack out of about 10 attempts. This seems about right, but I was not using the oft-mentioned Upgrade Attacks ab, so maybe that should be more closely examined by someone better able. Plague Zone landed with good regularity, but seems to be broken somehow, as it was re-usable after only about 10 seconds, where the effect should last 30 seconds. Outside of interlock, I now understand the complaints about Devastation Field. A long timer = big damage, so I won't say shorten the timer, but I think you should be able to target Dev Field on a spot on the ground. Even Bottleneck Field gives you barely enough time to get off a Dev Field before your target flees the scene, and if you get interupted once, its game over. Leave the timer, and have it target like Smoke Bomb - everybody wins.
I agree that the way to fix this is through clever use of re-use timers. No one wants to deny hackers their ability to fight, but the zero-sum nature of special moves must be considered. If a hacker can use a special every single turn, then they essentially are evading the most fundamental change in CR 2.0. Special move spam forces zero-sum and must be stopped.
In closing I would just like to say that I do not find a "food chain" to be an attractive or desirable feature in a game. No tree or build should simply outclass the others. Everyone should have their strengths and their weaknesses. On a real battlefield there are many sources of unfairness. One army will always be better prepared, with better equipment, superior numbers, and/or tactics. The Matrix transcends this. It is a battlefield of the mind, where the only limit to your ability is your own perspective. Therefore, there cannot be a "food chain", we each create our own reality, and should have an even chance of success with our chosen builds in our favored situations.
Message Edited by The_Wendigo on 03-24-200608:58 AM
<div></div>Exactly! However a hackers strength should lie out of Interlock, not within it. Plus a class created with the purpose of being the generic support class of an MMO shouldn't be so stand alone.
The_Wendigo wrote:
In closing I would just like to say that I do not find a "food chain" to be an attractive or desirable feature in a game. No tree or build should simply outclass the others. Everyone should have their strengths and their weaknesses. On a real battlefield there are many sources of unfairness. One army will always be better prepared, with better equipment, superior numbers, and/or tactics. The Matrix transcends this. It is a battlefield of the mind, where the only limit to your ability is your own perspective. Therefore, there cannot be a "food chain", we each create our own reality, and should have an even chance of success with our chosen builds in our favored situations.
I agree with most of the comments made here. It saddens me to hear thate ven after a fix was applied to Hackers that they STILL remain a problem. This is ludicrious, the amount of problems one tree can cause a game.
I adovcate an increase cost for the hackers attacks as well to be placed on their abilities when they are drawn into interlock, amd of at all possible, upgrade attacks should take a penalty once a hacker is drawn into interlock. In my opinion, hackers need to concentrate, and it gets substantially harder to do so when they are in close combat dodging fists and flying feet.
I adovcate an increase cost for the hackers attacks as well to be placed on their abilities when they are drawn into interlock, amd of at all possible, upgrade attacks should take a penalty once a hacker is drawn into interlock. In my opinion, hackers need to concentrate, and it gets substantially harder to do so when they are in close combat dodging fists and flying feet.
as always the problem IS NOT the accuracy. What makes Hackers and Kung Fu ( yes kung fu too, at least to a lesser extent ) unbalanced is the **bleep** reuse timers. Aikido for instance prevents you from doing more than one move every two turns in interlock, with the exception of the specials that require states.
the big problem lies in:
1) specials are zero sum. Fine with that. But if some classes can perform as many specials as they want back to back and others do not, there will always be unbalance because we would return to the old combat silly interlock. This situation is making all the changes made to interlock go WASTED.
2) If you fail a special you lose IS! not only you take damage but if you were trying to react with specials you drain your innerstrenght! at the end of a special moves combo your foe remains with little IS...and you too. Too bad you just lost 2/thirds of your hps and your foe is untouched. Also hackers have trascurable is cost for their special, and KFGMs have lesser IS costs for their specials than other martials.
I think devs should look at this matter once and for all.
Oh and do not misunderstand me. I love the new combat. I just hate to see it behave as the old one.
Message Edited by Fade2blacK on 03-26-200602:20 PM
Message Edited by Fade2blacK on 03-26-200602:24 PM
I agree that Hackers in interlock are a bad idea. Hackers are support class for the most part and should be made such. However if you want them to remain a support class make them usefull as such. Currently even with CR2 it is hard for a hacker to support. Stun durations are extremley low and though I do not like the current stun length I should be able to bump up the duration with ability stats more than 1-2 seconds which is all I have been able to obtain. What needs to happen is make a decision do you want them to be able to deal damage outside of interlock then give them that, do you want them to deal less damage but be a support and have decent debuffs that help the group in whole then give them that. Currently what I think has happened iwth CR2 is that they have taken away the outside of interlock damage and taken away the debuff capacity and given hacker a more level par inside interlock which turns them away from the support class they should be. I know I have taken down a few MA grndmasters insider interlock with my hacker loadout and that just should be possible. I know some of you will say that hackers still do extreme damage outside of interlock but I don't think it is any more extreme than the other ranged trees like riflles handguns machineguns etc. Yes, hackers can get their damage up significanctly with certain clothing, stats, ect. however when they do this they give up the benefits of protection from certain attacks so I think that is a decent balance there. One thing we all need to remember is this they are still planning on redoing hacker after cr2, at least that is what I thought I remembered reading so what we have now is a best address to the problem currently. Anyways that's my small bit of rambling on the situation
hackers havent been a problem in interlock for me since the patch. im fine with them now. as much as i hate to say it..i do think the some of the hacker debuffs timers should be extended. maybe to 10 seconds or somethin. whats the point of a 6 second stun. 30 seconds was way too much but you still want hacker to be effective support other than just damage. with the old system hackers were a good way to even the playing field if you were outnumbered even though some factions abused the tree. with this system hackers will not be much more than a nusiance. im fine with that, lol. nerf the tree for all i care and replace it with an exploisivs tree...grenades, bombs and such..would make more sence in the matrix anyways.
You can still have a 25 secs stun or root IF you have the proper attributes for it (focus 30 I believe)...
>revolt_
>revolt_
Exactly, they still have their skill out of Interlock, albeit not as overbalanced as before, so they don't need to be so good in IL.
>revolt_ wrote:
You can still have a 25 secs stun or root IF you have the proper attributes for it (focus 30 I believe)...
>revolt_
At all.
you guys are also forgetting that while i may throw barrage4 in interlock, which would cause all the other barrage's to flip their timers.. the other attacks are available, yes, but this is the case with other classes. when i load gunner and i use special A, special B is still available for that very next round. these silly solutions being proposed all make me think of when someone was explaining vapor-lock (in engines) to me.
ALL hacker moves are specials.. so... what happens when we get hit with powerless (unable to use any special moves)?
yes, i know. you forgot about that one. thats ok, at first, i did too.
being (un)able to hit someone has the obvious effect on DOT but jeez.. if anything is to be nerfed it should be dmg, not viral accuracy. accuracy needs to be raised, its taking far too long to kill anything as it stands now. its not about nerfing, its about drumming my fingers while i watch the timers roll, as i slowly kill just 2-3 opponents.
another thing to consider is eliminating hack ab X from interlock usage isnt very fair.. cuz that leaves us with what, blast3 and barrage4 and thats it? after all, anyone of high enough level to use those abs sure as hell doesnt use barrage1 and such, EVER. so now the gunners have however many specials as they always have and now hackers just sit with chin in hand, while the other hand taps keys, a whole 2 of them.. cycling between blast3.0 and barrage4.0, waiting to die, cuz we cant hit anything in interlock OR roll out if we want too, cuz someone around here has rapist issues (contested withdraw = *CENSORED*).. heh bizarre.
i promise ill try to be more reasonable about this hacker nerf stuff but it wont be today, and probly not tomorrow either =) for example, i think accuracy is too low (duh) but the upgrade attacks being reduced was necessary.. it was SO high that it would at least partially compensate for the interlock penalty.
Cryshal, what exactally are you on about?
Gunmen: Two base abilites for anytime.
SMG's: 3 anytime abilites and 1 Close combat; one of those abilites is on a seperate timer. 3 out of 4 require a state effect, they're also on similar timers.
Riflemen: 2 Anytime; one requires state effects and the other is a buffer. 1 Close combat; roots.
Sniper: 0 IL abilites
Duelist: 4 Close Combat abilites; again, 3 of 4 require state effects. 2 Anytime. There are two groups split almost equally of timers.
Of all three MA tree's; only 2 have abilites that can be used Outside IL, and each only have one a piece.
Hacker: 3 anytime; 1 buffer, 1 debuffer, 1 attack
Script kiddie: 0 in IL
Ravanger: 6 anytime abilites, all attacks with DOT
Arbaleist: 9 anytime; 5 attack (1 DOT), 2 roots, 1 stun, 1 buff, 1 debuff
Destroyer: 3 anytime; 2 DOT's , 1 attack
Artillest: 5 Anytime; 1 buff, 4 attacks
I won't even get into spy tree, proxy coder, and patcher; unless it's asked for, or maybe you can make sure to check next time before you start spouting off...
I'll agree with you the damage is high, but honestly what's the difference of lowering the damage but hiiting more often or lowering the accuracy and hitting less often with high damage?
Message Edited by AvatRAMa on 03-29-200610:03 PM
try reading my previous post, very slowly.. itll come to you. hacker needs no further nerfing. perhaps you just suck at pvp, which is by far more likely.
Sure they do and your wrong on the timers. If I use a duelist ability all of the abilities for that tree have timers that dont let me use them. I have to wait a round. I can use abilities from other trees but then I get hit with a 1 round penalty for switching trees in interlock so it negates that.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-07-200604:22 PM
cryshal wrote:try reading my previous post, very slowly.. itll come to you. hacker needs no further nerfing. perhaps you just suck at pvp, which is by far more likely.
Yea, that must be it. Everyone sucks at PvP but you and it has nothing to do with your tree.
I have pure hacker attributes.
Practically the only time I win a roll against a IL build (MA, Duelist) in Interlock is if they're heavily debuffed, or if I use Upgrade Attacks. Most people that know what they're doing can kill me once they've got me IL'ed, no prob. And with the IL sploit, and contested withdraw that is hacker's bane, there really doesn't need to be any nerfing done to hacker in IL. Oh, it should also be mentioned that if a hacker wants to hit in IL, he needs to use speed, which lowers damage and leaves him vulnerable to attack (Powerless, anyone?) from the IL class.
Nere a time did I discuss how I am affected by Hackers in Interlock, or how they've beaten me or haven't beaten me in combat. So your logic is flawed, Cryshal.
The above retort was in response to your assumption that Gunslingers or any operatives have ability A, B and C up for que whenever they'd like. That is not the case, as you can the majority of operative specials require a state effect to use, and though they aren't impossible or insurmountable to obtain; hacker's are not stiffled by such requirements in Interlock. As you can there are quite a few tree's where hackers have anywhere up to 9 abilites that can be used in Interlock, none requiring a state effect and I'm sure more then a few different timers.
If I were to use your logic then I could simply say, "Maybe because you have a hard time comprehending a logical debate and discussin then you must have failed at life.." But I'm not that type of person as you are cryshal, I don't change the subject of a debate when I've stated the facts wrong as you have so many times.
The above retort was in response to your assumption that Gunslingers or any operatives have ability A, B and C up for que whenever they'd like. That is not the case, as you can the majority of operative specials require a state effect to use, and though they aren't impossible or insurmountable to obtain; hacker's are not stiffled by such requirements in Interlock. As you can there are quite a few tree's where hackers have anywhere up to 9 abilites that can be used in Interlock, none requiring a state effect and I'm sure more then a few different timers.
If I were to use your logic then I could simply say, "Maybe because you have a hard time comprehending a logical debate and discussin then you must have failed at life.." But I'm not that type of person as you are cryshal, I don't change the subject of a debate when I've stated the facts wrong as you have so many times.
Message Edited by AvatRAMa on 04-20-2006 10:49 AM
Using an exploit for you argument doesnt exactly make your point. As far as the contested withdraw you rolled out on me on the first round every time I interlocked you tonight. I didnt check my system chat but im assuming you were using side roll escape? I could have lead my attack with pistol aerial but ive heard side roll escape works even if your enraged.:smileysad: I guess my point is theres too many bugs right now to get any accurate measure on withdraw but its good to discuss things like this.
Bayamo wrote:I have pure hacker attributes.
Practically the only time I win a roll against a IL build (MA, Duelist) in Interlock is if they're heavily debuffed, or if I use Upgrade Attacks. Most people that know what they're doing can kill me once they've got me IL'ed, no prob. And with the IL sploit, and contested withdraw that is hacker's bane, there really doesn't need to be any nerfing done to hacker in IL. Oh, it should also be mentioned that if a hacker wants to hit in IL, he needs to use speed, which lowers damage and leaves him vulnerable to attack (Powerless, anyone?) from the IL class.
Message Edited by Renesis13B on 04-21-2006 11:13 PM
I have not had the chance to test myself if Side Roll Escape still functions when one is enraged, but I asked a factionmate and he said the ability has done so with him. I'll give it a go tomorrow and try to confirm.
Bayamo wrote:
I have pure hacker attributes.
Practically the only time I win a roll against a IL build (MA, Duelist) in Interlock is if they're heavily debuffed, or if I use Upgrade Attacks. Most people that know what they're doing can kill me once they've got me IL'ed, no prob. And with the IL sploit, and contested withdraw that is hacker's bane, there really doesn't need to be any nerfing done to hacker in IL. Oh, it should also be mentioned that if a hacker wants to hit in IL, he needs to use speed, which lowers damage and leaves him vulnerable to attack (Powerless, anyone?) from the IL class.
Hmm.... let me explain
Enter interlock.
Hit upgrade attacks
Hit code infection 4
Hit overclock
Change to power tactic
Spam specials
Even if only a couple go through apart from code infection then you are doing serious damage. Assuming you got a pacify, or infect field to lower you opponents viral res before interlock things look good. As a variation hit code infection 3 first, then put 4 on about 5 rounds later, it will replace the lower version for longer lasting repeated damage.
As an MA I have lost against hackers in interlock. I've also won - but not by much. I find that I am in a poor state by the time I manage interlock, and that means I sometimes don't have time to kill them before I die. As a side note this could be cause I use aikido, which has much lower damage than kung fu which might pwn hacker....
PS. Why does plague infection area ability (one with rats on it) Suck quite so badly?
PPS> The assassin escape moves work when enraged, and I have also had a guy sideroll me when powerless.... grr... can't keep hold of them.
As Renesis said, using an exploit doesn't really make a point.
You can't call hacker overpowered because of Code Infection anymore, Ntrails, because Code Infection has been nerfed to all hell (if the patch went through, I haven't been on yet). Otherwise, anyone using Code Infection is using an unbalanced ability, so don't expect a fair fight, or correct results. It's a lot more tricky when fighting fairly, with Ballista the Upgrade Attacks duration isn't long enough to get damage to kill, so it's necessary to try to debuff first, and even then it's still hard to beat a IL class. When I get pulled into IL, I take damage and do little; the higher level more-damage hacker abilities are nerfed in IL, and will miss with Upgrade Attacks on if I use Power tactic. The way to survive/win is to roll out and try to get some distance and hack from there... :o
You can't call hacker overpowered because of Code Infection anymore, Ntrails, because Code Infection has been nerfed to all hell (if the patch went through, I haven't been on yet). Otherwise, anyone using Code Infection is using an unbalanced ability, so don't expect a fair fight, or correct results. It's a lot more tricky when fighting fairly, with Ballista the Upgrade Attacks duration isn't long enough to get damage to kill, so it's necessary to try to debuff first, and even then it's still hard to beat a IL class. When I get pulled into IL, I take damage and do little; the higher level more-damage hacker abilities are nerfed in IL, and will miss with Upgrade Attacks on if I use Power tactic. The way to survive/win is to roll out and try to get some distance and hack from there... :o
You are correct, code infection is screwed.
And once rolled, I like to root/pacify to keep them away from me 
PLus the neato viral damage resistance destruction on those pacifies roxors.