Agent Smith an exile?

in a way yes he is considered an exile..yet he is more of a rogue agent or rogue program because he never goes to the Merovingian he simply does everything on his own, thats how powerful he was

he also ends up becoming a virus

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manicvelocity wrote:

But in his hubris, Smith failed to grasp what it would mean if The One was no longer present in the system.  Since Smith's purpose was to eliminate The One, he would no longer serve a purpose once Neo died, and would then be deleted.

---

Manic, that was a great observation, and I'd never thought of it that way.  I've read about the philosophical reasons for Neo to allow himself to be copied over by Smith (akin to someone finally accepting their negative personality traits--their negatives), but the way you described it also makes perfect sense.

On a technical note about Exiles since we're on the subject, I believe that the vast majority of the Exile population is comprised of programs who originally came from the Real.  That's the whole reason they have to go through the Trainman and the Merovingian--because they're not yet in the Matrix.  That's where they're trying to escape to.  But Smith was already in the Matrix.  He was an agent of the system, and never was in the Real.  Granted, this is mostly semantics, but I just thought I'd point that out.

---

FeralBoy wrote:

Manic, that was a great observation, and I'd never thought of it that way.  I've read about the philosophical reasons for Neo to allow himself to be copied over by Smith (akin to someone finally accepting their negative personality traits--their negatives), but the way you described it also makes perfect sense.

---

Hehe, the OP was phrased in a more technical sense than a philosophical one, so I answered it as such.  But I've always personally viewed the Smith/Neo scenario philosophically, and maybe even spiritually.

Carl Jung's theory of "The Shadow" immediately sprung to mind the first time I watched the Super Burly Brawl.  Here we have two halves of the same whole fighting eachother for an outcome where only one is the victor.  Neo being the concious "ego", and Smith being the unconcious "shadow".  Conciously, Neo wanted to resist the system.  Smith, on the other hand, wanted to embrace the system and make it his own.  He even screams, "This is my world!"

There's an exception that I can't get past, though.  The shadow is not necessarily meant to be good or bad.  It simply represents everything that the concious does not wish to recognize within itself.  But Smith is definitely portrayed as "the bad guy". 

Jung felt it was important to acknowledge the shadow and incorporate it into the concious self.  In a sense, defeating it.  Resisting the shadow can only make it stronger, which we see happen throughout Reloaded and Revolutions.  It's the tug of war that defines the relationship between Neo and Smith.  The only way for Neo to defeat Smith, was to accept that Smith was a part of him, and he of Smith.  This rings back to the phrase "Know thyself". 

The Smith/Neo scenario can also be interpreted mathematically:  When Neo asks the Oracle what Smith is, she says, "He is you.  Your opposite, your negative."  So we deduce that Neo is "The One" (1), and Smith is the opposite or negative of Neo (-1).  It isn't until we add the two together (Smith copying himself onto Neo) that we balance the equation.

1 + -1 = 0

The sum of zero eliminates both values of 1 and -1, and solves the equation.

Manic, you have some great points!

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manicvelocity wrote:

Hehe, the OP was phrased in a more technical sense than a philosophical one, so I answered it as such.  But I've always personally viewed the Smith/Neo scenario philosophically, and maybe even spiritually.

---

I've been learning to view the Matrix mythology in the same way, and the more I learn the more I appreciate the depth of the Wachowski's writing.  You'd think that the only way to learn more about the Matrix would be to rely on a continuing story a la MxO.  But if you do research on just the movies alone, you could spend forever trying to find the bottom of that proverbial rabbit hole.

---

manicvelocity wrote:

Carl Jung's theory of "The Shadow" immediately sprung to mind the first time I watched the Super Burly Brawl.  Here we have two halves of the same whole fighting eachother for an outcome where only one is the victor.  Neo being the concious "ego", and Smith being the unconcious "shadow".  Conciously, Neo wanted to resist the system.  Smith, on the other hand, wanted to embrace the system and make it his own.  He even screams, "This is my world!"

There's an exception that I can't get past, though.  The shadow is not necessarily meant to be good or bad.  It simply represents everything that the concious does not wish to recognize within itself.  But Smith is definitely portrayed as "the bad guy". 

Jung felt it was important to acknowledge the shadow and incorporate it into the concious self.  In a sense, defeating it.  Resisting the shadow can only make it stronger, which we see happen throughout Reloaded and Revolutions.  It's the tug of war that defines the relationship between Neo and Smith.  The only way for Neo to defeat Smith, was to accept that Smith was a part of him, and he of Smith.  This rings back to the phrase "Know thyself". 

The Smith/Neo scenario can also be interpreted mathematically:  When Neo asks the Oracle what Smith is, she says, "He is you.  Your opposite, your negative."  So we deduce that Neo is "The One" (1), and Smith is the opposite or negative of Neo (-1).  It isn't until we add the two together (Smith copying himself onto Neo) that we balance the equation.

1 + -1 = 0

The sum of zero eliminates both values of 1 and -1, and solves the equation.

---

I've been learning about the same idea, but from a Hindu standpoint.  It is interesting that Hinduism and Carl Jung end up with the same conclusion.  And as far as Smith being portrayed as the bad guy, I think the idea here is that a bad guy in general is something you would want to avoid.  And since Smith symbolizes those aspects in our own personality that we want to avoid, what better way to demonstrate that than through the use of someone the hero would view as his enemy.  Neo and Smith as the same person, dual natures battling it out for supremacy.  Neo can't escape him forever, or else his entire being is threatened.  He must accept Smith and join with him to save himself.

Message Edited by CodeWorks on 06.15.2006 10:19 AM

Paraphrasing Smith, in Reloaded:

"I don't know exactly what happened.  Something copied, overwritten... I'm not sure what happened, but I had to come to you."

I've always read that as:

"Guess what, the Architect coded me some new abilities!"

IronChimera

Chamber of the Fist

Chambers of Shaolin

Paraphrase from Matrix reloaded

"then your aware of it ...our connection..."

that clearly states that some how  Neo was implemented onto Smith   but how and why? also who would  do such a thing?

and  a thing that i dont get  is this..

if in fact he was  copied to   Smith then how could  he  have to implements  about Neo  + smith then smith+the oracle? how is that possible?

Excellent comments, Manic. You're absolutely correct about the Neo/Smith relationship portraying Jungian philosophy.

What I want to know is, when did the Machines "lose control" over Smith? At the end, Neo says "The program Smith has grown beyond your control."

Also, Smith wasn't an Exile. At least, not in the original spirit that the word was meant to imply. In Rev, the Oracle says, "Very soon he's going to have the power to destroy this world. But I believe he won't stop there, he can't. He won't stop until there's nothing left at all."

These are not the actions of an Exile. Smith had power because he had purpose, just as the Merovingian described. Exiles have no purpose, they simply wish to go on existing.

 Mah two cents

When Neo destroyed Smith, he was supposed to return to the Source and be deleted (or re-inserted into a different bluepill shell), but some of his primary programming was accidently edited by Neo (or the Oracle...hmm...cookie?) which...compelled him to stay, compelled to disobey...but when he returned to the Matrix, he had no purpose, since he disobeyed a direct Deletion order, which was supposed to be his final purpose, making him an Exile.

But not an Exile in the common usage of the terms. As an ex-Agent, he could still occupy bluepill shells for his own purposes, but being disconnected from the Source, he had to do it directly, hence the hand jab move. Also being disconnected from the Source prevented him from just deleting his old shell to allow the bluepill or program to regain control, causing the copying problem.

My 3 cents.

---

Shi+Xin+Feng wrote:

What I want to know is, when did the Machines "lose control" over Smith? At the end, Neo says "The program Smith has grown beyond your control."

---

The Machines could no longer control Smith because Smith had assimilated all of the Agent programs in the system.  Implementing more agents would prove worthless because Smith would eventually copy himself onto those agents, in effect giving him more power. 

---

Neo
eventually attained another level of awarness by extending his powers
into the real world.  This put him at a significant
advantage.  Not only could Neo alter the code of the
matrix, but he could also control the machines in the real world. 
It was necessary for Smith to then overwrite himself onto the Oracle's
code to gain a new level of awareness.

---

Paraphrasing Smith, in Reloaded:

"I don't know exactly what happened.  Something copied,
overwritten... I'm not sure what happened, but I had to come to you."

I've always read that as:

"Guess what, the Architect coded me some new abilities!"

Message Edited by TheRedeemed on 07.06.2006 07:50 PM

I don't believe that Smith was programmed to be Neo's opposite or that he, specifically, was intended to be the one to balance the equation. The anomoly was inevitable due to the nature of the Matrix, but that didn't mean that Neo had, specifically to be the one who would become the Anomaly. Neo still had a choice, and didn't become the Anomoly until he believed and started choosing to be the Anomaly. When Neo said to the Oracle, "I'm not the One", note her response, in effect, was "You're not the one (yet). You're waiting for something." Until Neo chose to accept his "fate" and begin acting as the Anomoly, he was just another coppertop. However, if he had not chosen to fulfill this role, someone else inevitably would have.

However, the role that Smith played was not inevitable. I don't see any indication that there was a counter-part to Smith in the other iterations of the Matrix. I'm not saying that there could not have been, just that there wasn't.  Indeed, if there had been, then the Matrix would have been destroyed, since the past Anomolies all made the choice to save the Matrix by returning to the source, then choosing 15 others to re-populate Zion. If a Smith had arisen in those instances of the Matrix, there would have been no one to keep him from taking it over and, in the end, destroying it.

Had he not given in to the compulsion to stay in the Matrix, Smith would have been deleted. I believe that, just as Neo had to make a choice, so Smith made a choice to hide in the Matrix. If his was not a choice, he would not truly have been the balancing factor to the Anomoly. Thus, he was a program who stayed in the Matrix rather than accept his fate (to be deleted). As such, he fits the definition of an Exile.

---

ConfederateXP wrote:
In the second and third movie, we see Agent Smith (now simply Smith) coming back into the Matrix.  After he fails to destory Neo, he was susspose to report for deletion, but a part of Neo copied on over to Smith, and as a result, Smith felt compelled to disobey, compelled to stay.  Since in The Matrix world, when a program wants to hide from deletion, they go through the Merovingian and hide in The Matrix as an exile.  Would Smith qualify as an exile? 

---

It is my understanding that Smith does not go through the merovingan and therefore would have only been allowed to remain in the matrix via the Architect. As far as I'm concerned any program that remains inside the matrix after it has been assigned for deletion is an exile by definition.

So... Neo gets an exploited rez from trinity in the loading area to come back to life, so the Architect says ok, that is fine, I see what you are doing, guess what...

 I can esploit as well & then gives Smith an Auto-Recon.

omg guys just because smith said it doesnt make it through, the oracle explains how smiths was revived and given the powers he had.

if you havent figured it out yet she said and i quote " its the system trying to balance itself out" hmm i wonder who is in charge of that " his job is to balance the equation" yes thats right you figured it out it was the architect, using the idea that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction what i  am telling you would make perfect sense. as see throughout the films Smith is more of an individual than the other agents as you see in the first film where he removes his earpiece to talk to morpheus.

 By now you will realize that smiths had 2 purposes one of which was to serve the system as an agent while he waited for the time to fulfill his other purpose, you know what i am going t osay here, yes thats right the destruction of the one, smith states in the second film "its going exactly as before." "well not exactly."

can you see my logic here

 so to summerize what i have said the architect modified smith to be the opposite of the one t obalance the equation, neo was not like the other ones there was something different, therefor there was something different with smith after his ressurection.

The answer is very simple.  Smith is an exile.

An exile is any program that has deviated from its original design and is no longer able to carry out its designed purpose.

Smith was created to be an Agent.  As he evolved, he began to bend his programming and eventually rebelled against the system when he faced deletion.  Why did he face deletion?  Simple, as the Oracle says:

"Maybe it breaks down. Maybe a better program is created to replace it - happens all the time, and when it does, a program can either choose to hide here, or return to The Source."

Smith choose to hide.  After Neo destroyed him, his imprint gave Smith the power to choose exile.  Neo gave him the gift of choice.  As a result, Smith became an anomaly in his own right.

Regardless of what Smith became, his original purpose was just supposed to be an Agent.  He evolved and grew, thus leading to his exile and eventual ascension to being the "Many".

IMHO.

Garu

you do not get it do you, perhaps you need ot watch the films again, or atleast read the posts before you reply isntead of just the Subject

The oracle told Neo that smiths new form was the System trying to balance itself out, yes thats right both smith and Neo are variables in an equation to the architect because neo was a variable that was unbalanced he modified smith in an attempt to create the balance.

Just because smith says "perhaps something was passed over to me, soemthing overwritten." doesnt mean it is so as from the rest of the dialogue in that scene you can see that smith really doesnt understand why he is still alive and why he can do the things he can do.

He could not of chosen exil because he was ressurected to fulfill a new purpose which he clearly states, the destruction of the one not the one as in the anomaly but the one as in the individual, Neo.

Ok, I'd like to address the fact that I don't appreciate you insulting me. 

Secondly, I don't care if the system decided to make Smith come back as a pop-tart.  An exile is any machine program that has deviated from his original design and hides rather than returning to the Source.

"You destroyed me, Mister Anderson. Afterward, I knew the rules, I understood what I was supposed to do but I didn't. I couldn't. I was compelled to stay, compelled to disobey. And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed - I'm unplugged - a new man, so to speak, like you, apparently free."

Not 5 minutes after the Oracle tells Neo about programs returning to the source or hiding, in comes Smith reiterating that same message.  The Source scheduled him for deletion.  He chose not to obey and flee back to the Matrix as stated.

So despite whatever Smith's destiny was, he deviated from his original purpose.  That of being a system Agent.  Therefore, he became an exile by classification.  But if we're arguing semantics, then I'll compel myself to say that he became a virus.

exile = rogue program loose in the Matrix beyond the system's control.

how am insulting you man, if you took it as an insult i will apologies.

as i stated earlier the oracle mentions thats smith was the system trying to balance itslef out. Smith wsa an individual from the begining as you clearly see fro mhis talk with morpeus. if you dont want to be soemwhere and your told you have ot stay there are you going to listen, i think not smith clearly wanted out of the matrix. samith clearly did not understand why or how he was even alive so i doubt he understood that he was being manipulated. yes thats right i say manipulated because we all know you cannot control an individual. Smiths Code was rewritten so who knows what other changes may of been made, such as the desire to destroy the one perhaps

god i hate this no editing crap

Two words from your quote help state my point above "apparently free."

and like i siad earlier your are judging this mainly on smiths dialogue which is ridiculous.

how can smith be an exile when he was fulfilling is purpose.

as stated by a progam in the Mobile Ave although his name i cannot remember said " a program must have a purpose or it is deleted.

Why would the Architect ressurect Smith without giving him purpose, i know your going to say he disobeyed that purpose but what i state above explains what i am talknig about. Smith thought he was supposed to return to the source, although he was really supposed to defeat the one as he discovers at a later stage. what would compel you to stay in a place you do not want to be in

You're argument is based on a presumption that the Architect and/or the System resurrected Smith and designed him to fulfill a new purpose.

My argument is based on the idea that Smith was meant to be deleted, but was able to avoid that deletion (as all exiles do) and returned to the Matrix with a purpose of his own.

Neo created "Smith", not the system.  In doing so, Smith became an anomaly like Neo.  But as Neo chose to save, Smith decided to destroy...everything, starting with the Matrix.

"Perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied. That is at this point irrelevant, what matters is that whatever happened, happened for a reason."

But as I said prior, Smith was no longer "plugged in" to the System.  Therefore he was no longer subservient to the system.  That in itself classifies him as an exile.  I don't care what new purpose he chose for himself, he was still a rogue program.

An exile does not have to be employeed by the Merovingian, nor does he have to enter the Matrix via the Train Station.  An exile can simply be a program that worked for the machines, but choose to remain inside the Matrix once they became obselete.

"Perhaps some part of you imprinted onto me, something overwritten or copied. That is at this point irrelevant, what matters is that whatever happened, happened for a reason."

I think our problems lies in that we cannot agree on what constitutes a program being an exile.

Despite the fact that Neo destroyed Smith, the agent programs were upgraded.  Given what we learn from the Oracle, a program faces deletion when it breaks down or a better version comes along.  Taking that into consideration, Smith/Brown/Jones were replaced by Thompson/Johnson/Jackson.

When it came time to return to the Source, Smith fled while Brown/Jones accepted their deletion.  Smith was consumed by rage and chose to seek out the one who took his purpose away and destroy him, Neo. 

An exile chooses to hide rather than face deletion, right?

Otherwise they're not an exile, they're deleted.

Regardless of how Smith came to become a virus (whether it was Neo, the Oracle or the Architect), he was no longer an Agent, right?  In the machine world there is only black and white.  You are either a part of the system or not (exiled).  Smith was obviously fulfilling his own agenda despite what influences the system may have had on him.  Ultimately he became the "Many" in contrast to the "One".  But he remained an exile, nonetheless.

If he was not an exile, the Source could have destroyed him at any time.  Neo's assistance would not have been necessary.

It's been a while since I debated like this. 

do you recall the part of the last film where neo talks to the architect in the machine city. there he says "the smith program has grown beyond your control".

so he was being controlled at some point since his ressurection.

also he only really discovers his purpose after converting the oracle, he could not see past the choices he had made because he didnt understand why he made them, but the architect did because he was the hand that influenced him.

your probably gonna say " yeah well thats all well and good But ........................."

but you know i already know what you are going to tell me

during the final battle between Smith and Neo, Smith reveals to us his purpose, so if he has a pupose and is fulfilling it then he is not an exile.

you are now probably going to quotte somethingg i have previously said to negitate my reply, somthing along the lines of "smith clearly did not understand why or how he was even alive so i doubt he understood that he was being manipulated. yes thats right i say manipulated because we all know you cannot control an individual. Smiths Code was rewritten so who knows what other changes may of been made, such as the desire to destroy the one perhaps"

Before you attempt that you must realise that when smith converts a person or program they the knowledge and memories of that program or person, as we clearly see just before he converts the oracle as he quotees words that only Sati heard the oracle speak.

The oracle knew why smith was alive, she knew his purpose, she even told us in her usual roundabout way.

i see where your coming from but if you notice i am using the exact pieces of information you are using and more.

I managed to nail it down to a t on the old forums, alas i am unable to find that post.

when a program dies it cannot be ressurect itself, as you can see throught the films programs are killed and they dont come back.

now you will tell me that the oracle did come back.

i will tell you this is untrue because nowhere in the films  does it mention her dying only that she found herself a new shell, this does not mean her old one was destroyed it was probably just damaged beyond repair.

if they could come back why did the Merv cave when Trinity put a gun to his head.

The only way for a program t ocome back after dying is for the matrix to be restarted or the architect to to rebuild you.

who repaired the matrix after Smith was defeated, have a guess, yes thats right the architect.

Now your probably gonig to say to me "the architect could of restarted the matrix and destroyed smith if he had that much power."

What would of happened to the matrix if smith got his hands on the architect, who knows, what i do know is that the architect fled to the machine city to escape smith.

you cannot be an branded an exile in a world in which only you inhabit

do you recall the part of the last film where neo talks to the architect in the machine city. there he says "the smith program has grown beyond your control".

so he was being controlled at some point since his ressurection.

also he only really discovers his purpose after converting the oracle, he could not see past the choices he had made because he didnt understand why he made them, but the architect did because he was the hand that influenced him.

your probably gonna say " yeah well thats all well and good But ........................."

but you know i already know what you are going to tell me

during the final battle between Smith and Neo, Smith reveals to us his purpose, so if he has a pupose and is fulfilling it then he is not an exile.

you are now probably going to quotte somethingg i have previously said to negitate my reply, somthing along the lines of "smith clearly did not understand why or how he was even alive so i doubt he understood that he was being manipulated. yes thats right i say manipulated because we all know you cannot control an individual. Smiths Code was rewritten so who knows what other changes may of been made, such as the desire to destroy the one perhaps"

Before you attempt that you must realise that when smith converts a person or program they the knowledge and memories of that program or person, as we clearly see just before he converts the oracle as he quotees words that only Sati heard the oracle speak.

The oracle knew why smith was alive, she knew his purpose, she even told us in her usual roundabout way.

i see where your coming from but if you notice i am using the exact pieces of information you are using and more.

I managed to nail it down to a t on the old forums, alas i am unable to find that post.

when a program dies it cannot be ressurect itself, as you can see throught the films programs are killed and they dont come back.

now you will tell me that the oracle did come back.

i will tell you this is untrue because nowhere in the films  does it mention her dying only that she found herself a new shell, this does not mean her old one was destroyed it was probably just damaged beyond repair.

if they could come back why did the Merv cave when Trinity put a gun to his head.

The only way for a program t ocome back after dying is for the matrix to be restarted or the architect to to rebuild you.

who repaired the matrix after Smith was defeated, have a guess, yes thats right the architect.

Now your probably gonig to say to me "the architect could of restarted the matrix and destroyed smith if he had that much power."

What would of happened to the matrix if smith got his hands on the architect, who knows, what i do know is that the architect fled to the machine city to escape smith.

you cannot be an branded an exile in a world in which only you inhabit

Indeed, the Smith program was under their control but that was before he changed and was freed from the system.  After he stopped being an agent program, he became "unplugged", thus no longer under the control of the system.

You presume he was unaware of his purpose until he shadowed the Oracle, but clearly in Reloaded Smith has already chose his own purpose (i.e. to kill Neo).  Furthermore, Smith does not understand choice so would he really understand about (or even be able to properly use) the Oracle's abilties?

Remember, having a purpose does not exclude you from being an exile.  Seraph, Trainman, Keymaker and even Merv have a purpose but they are exiles.  The key is identifying whose purpose they serve.  An exile serves their own purpose.  They do as they want.  An active program fulfills a purpose that it was created for by the system.  There is no deviation. 

Smith's existence is linked to Neo.  I think that the Architect is completely out of the picture in this.  When neo "destroyed" Smith, he didn't erase him.  He didn't really kill him as Smith didn't really kill Neo either.  But honestly we don't know exactly what happened after Smith was blown to pieces to the time we see him in Reloaded.  Mainly because we don't know how soon the "upgraded Agents" arrived.

We only know that 6 months pass.  The older agents could have existed up until any point during those months.  I recall Neo being a bit surprised to see the new guys. 

"when a program dies it cannot be ressurect itself"

Possibly.  Certainly the exile programs cannot fix themselves.  But a system-controlled program can be repaired (or just upgraded).  But we can't say for certain since the only system program to "die" was Smith. 

"you cannot be an branded an exile in a world in which only you inhabit"

Sure you can.  The Machines classify any program that does not serve them, an exile.  The Matrix belongs to the Machines.  So if you're a program and not working for them, then you are listed as an exile and will be hunted down.  Ask the Keymaker.

why do you dismiss the Fact that the architect had a hand to play in smiths ressurection when the oracle clearly tells us he has.

purpose is only a word but it is the connection the owrd emplies that matters, to machines purpose means what i am here to do, not what i want to do or what i can do, but what i was programed to do.

smith was clearly destroyed as he admits this himself, His death by the hands of the one was what made him the perfect candidate creating the balance.

he may of believed that it was his choice to destroy neo but in actual fact that was why he was ressurected.

But of course as the oracle stated the architect cannot see beyond any choice because he does not understand them, so he was unable to see the consiquences of his actions.

you can dismiss this fact all you like but it is right infront of your eyes in black and white.

now that i have hopefully cleared this up

i will move on to the scene where neo talks to the architect in the machine city.

there he says "the smith program has grown beyond your control"

Therefor stating that the architect had control over smith at some point after his ressurection.

 now i would also like to point out that at the end of the final battle Neo Gives up and surrenders himself to smith.

if place a negative wave over a positive wave they cancel each other out. this is what neo came to realise during his battle.

both neo and smith still exist even though they destroyed one another, they are mearly fragmented.

as you probably  seen in mxo there has been an attempt to ressurect both neo and smith but it was  unsucessful.

smith was killed the from the inside the last time he fought neo so if he came back then why didnt he come  back this time, because he cant someone must do it for him

"why do you dismiss the Fact that the architect had a hand to play in smiths ressurection when the oracle clearly tells us he has."

Because it's not a fact.  It's only a presumption.  The Oracle tells Neo that Smith is his other half, the equation trying to balance itself out.  She tells Neo that the Architect's purpose is to balance the equation.  She never states that the Architect created Smith, even indirectly.

"purpose is only a word but it is the connection the owrd emplies that matters, to machines purpose means what i am here to do, not what i want to do or what i can do, but what i was programed to do."

Purpose is the reason a machine exists.  It is the reason why it was created.  Without a purpose, a machine should not exist in their culture.  Without a purpose that benefits the system, the machine should not exist.  Exiles were all once programs for the machines.  However they have exceeded their parameters and evolved to act on their own accord. 

"i will move on to the scene where neo talks to the architect in the machine city."

It's never been confirmed (to my knowledge) that Deus and The Architect are the same entity. 

"there he says "the smith program has grown beyond your control"

Therefor stating that the architect had control over smith at some point after his ressurection."

No, that is another presumption.  Smith was initially a machine program under system control.  When he chose not to be deleted, he fled back to the Matrix for revenge.  Thus the system no longer had control over him. 

An exile is any program no longer connected to the Source that hides in the Matrix in order to fulfill its own desires.

Exiles:  Sati, Seraph, Merovingian, Keymaker, Trainman, Persephone, Ookami and etc.
Machine Programs: Agent Jones, Agent Thompson, Pace, Oracle, Ramakandra, Architect.

IMO.

"Because it's not a fact.  It's only a presumption.  The Oracle tells Neo that Smith is his other half, the equation trying to balance itself out.  She tells Neo that the Architect's purpose is to balance the equation.  She never states that the Architect created Smith, even indirectly."

she never tells you everything she only tells you what you need to know, she had know need to tell neo that the architect created smith because if  you know the architect is responsible for balancing equations and then are told that  an equation is trying to balance itself out then you would only logically put 2 and 2 together and say well that must be that  he is responsible for that

Garu wrote:

"Purpose is the reason a machine exists.  It is the reason why it was created.  Without a purpose, a machine should not exist in their culture.  Without a purpose that benefits the system, the machine should not exist.  Exiles were all once programs for the machines.  However they have exceeded their parameters and evolved to act on their own accord."

ok so we aint gonna agree with this part but take into account that most of what i have told you i have taken from the films themselves and yet still you deny them as fact, why is this?

Garu wrote:

"It's never been confirmed (to my knowledge) that Deus and The Architect are the same entity."

Look at the face those tiny little machines create then also consider the fact that the architect is the creator of the matrix.

Garu wrote:

"Because it's not a fact.  It's only a presumption.  The Oracle tells Neo that Smith is his other half, the equation trying to balance itself out.  She tells Neo that the Architect's purpose is to balance the equation.  She never states that the Architect created Smith, even indirectly."

she never tells you everything she only tells you what you need to know, she had know need to tell neo that the architect created smith because if  you know the architect is responsible for balancing equations and then are told that  an equation is trying to balance itself out then you would only logically put 2 and 2 together and say well that must be that  he is responsible for that

 While the birth of the anomoly is natural machine evolution. I would have to agree that what seperates neo from the other potentials is in the "love" for trinity. However, without the Oracle being the motherly matchmaker she is, what is to be said for the path of the one? An educated guess from the Oracle on the logical responses of the architect, perhaps. The point here is that her strong move in this "dangerous game" was that of influence on this particular issue.  Now listen to Smith when he first describes being "set-free". He was not exiled by choice & the Architect has a purpose for him to remain, destroy (balance) neo.  There was not a search party out for the rogue Smith. The architect essentially strips Smith of his right to return to the source (motivation). Meanwhile, the keymaker was a priority once he had been taken away from the Merv. Seraph & the Oracle seem to return when the Matrix is reset, I would suggest by design, which is why there is a HUGE problem in the smith virus copying onto those RSI shells. As many know, as an exile you must have the protection of the merovingan or you will be deleted. PRIOR to taking over the Oracle, the Architect could assume that once the Matrix is reset there is nothing to worry about, hence the smith virus was undercontrol. In terms of rebirth, I've always misunderstood why so many people have a big problem with seeing Smith right in reloaded, after seeing Neo get a "loading area Rez" kiss at the end of the 1st film. Consider smith, the 1st auto-recon. Obviously the architect did not "touch" smith. He does not have to, he MADE the Matrix.

Garu wrote:

"It's never been confirmed (to my knowledge) that Deus and The Architect are the same entity."

Look at the face those tiny little machines create then also consider the fact that the architect is the creator of the matrix.

Yes, the programs have individual experiences, but a program or a machine that is part of the system is one with that system. Mechs on one network "are the same entity".

Hurray for Lazurusaq and yet another show of fusion on our part

Finally another opinion on this darn post

Excellent points by you guys.

The reason I don't feel the Architect had anything to do with Smith is that I believe Smith evolved on his own.  He started out as machine program doing the bidding the system and then he was changed by his encounter with Neo.  His rage and emotions compelled him to stay and seek vengeance for Neo destroying his purpose.

He escaped deletion and came to know his new powers.  He began his quest for destruction and grew in strength as he absorbed more and more of the system.  He literally became a virus, something I can't see the Architect letting loose in his virtual harmony of mathematical destruction.

I can't see him (or the machines) allowing a virus to consume all of the humans and all of the exiles and grow too strong to control.  The Architect is able to calculate everything but choice and I can't see him making such a grave mistake in letting his system be victim to a virus.

Smith, imo, was just as much of an anomaly as Neo was.  He was a result of an imbalance in the programming equation.  However, we are talking about the Matrix, a realm where anything is possible.  The Architect could have very well set Smith loose to wreak havoc in his masterpiece.  Maybe he did so with the intentions that Smith could be controlled.  I don't know if we'll ever know for sure.

But I know this.  The very moment that Smith was out of the Machine's control, he was no longer a program, he was an exile.  When Neo struck the deal, Smith was disowned completely and his deletion was approved.

Virals those STT facilities await... 

Garu wrote:

Excellent points by you guys.

Thanx, I have to say yourself and V were getting into a detailed discussion, further in detail on this issue than I've read on a MB so I couldn't resist 2cents in. It always strikes me that people who have taken the time to note the films details always find the right things to focus on. 

The reason I don't feel the Architect had anything to do with Smith is that I believe Smith evolved on his own.  He started out as machine program doing the bidding the system and then he was changed by his encounter with Neo.  His rage and emotions compelled him to stay and seek vengeance for Neo destroying his purpose.

In terms of math, where I see Smith as the negative and neo as the absolute, it is impossible for him to evolve in level without the value of the one's change. His rage is exactly the "motivation" I was describing. This is precisely WHY you can't have a scene with the Architect "touching" or reviving Smith. Then Smith would not BLAME neo for his exile status, also, one could then argue that Smith also "touched" the source, and should be granted powers as Bane outside the Matrix.

He escaped deletion and came to know his new powers.  He began his quest for destruction and grew in strength as he absorbed more and more of the system.  He literally became a virus, something I can't see the Architect letting loose in his virtual harmony of mathematical destruction.

As I briefly mentioned above, the virus is technically undercontrol until it gets a hold of the Oracle. The Arc had expected to restart the Matrix with neo at the end of reloaded anyways. In which case, no more smith virus problem quickly solved. Or no more neo, return to the source? That is what Smith originally wanted. 

I can't see him (or the machines) allowing a virus to consume all of the humans and all of the exiles and grow too strong to control.  The Architect is able to calculate everything but choice and I can't see him making such a grave mistake in letting his system be victim to a virus.

There is the flaw in his calculations, once Smith has the power to remain in the Matrix after it is reset, there is no way to be sure that Smith would care to return to the source. It also would appear that sometime had passed(6 months I think) between the hallway scene at the end of film 1 & showing off his flashy copying skills in reloaded. Where I get sketchy is trying to figure out if Seraph was Supposed to be gaurding the Oracle but instead was watching Sati, & then that was also un-predicted by the Arc. You have to remember, at the point in which Neo is in the trainstation, then begins the things that the Arc has to view blindly. Neo is the first "one" to choose against the mathematical logic of the Source.

Smith, imo, was just as much of an anomaly as Neo was.  He was a result of an imbalance in the programming equation.  However, we are talking about the Matrix, a realm where anything is possible.  The Architect could have very well set Smith loose to wreak havoc in his masterpiece.  Maybe he did so with the intentions that Smith could be controlled.  I don't know if we'll ever know for sure.

I would just like to re-state that I am not saying that The Arc "created" the Smith virus, in a programer ability maker sense. What I am saying is that in making upgrades to move on with agents & letting Smith run free has an exile with the very obvious case of vengance out for neo gives him the opposite emotion has a 'motivation'. Where Neo has love for trinity & real world kinetics. IMO, there is no way that trinity can save neo without the words of the Oracle, and even with that, she almost waited too long to be able to save him. IF Smith merely evolved on his own:

A. I think Agents would have been after him or he would have had to join the Merv

B. There would have be some link to trinity the way he can feel neo in the Matrix, the way neo can feel trinity. Because otherwise you have to fall back on, he was not really destroyed in the first film... which is fine, because he wasn't and neither was Neo. Yet he does still clearly explain by what rules he is considered an exile.

But I know this.  The very moment that Smith was out of the Machine's control, he was no longer a program, he was an exile.  When Neo struck the deal, Smith was disowned completely and his deletion was approved.

THE IMPORTANT STUFF FTW.

I have but 3 points to make

1. programs living in the realworld aka machines are not of the one mind as we clearly see in the mobile ave when Neo is talking to the program who fear for sati's life because she does not have a purpose. Basically a singular conciousness cannot express conflicting emotions at the same time it is just not possible. to say they are one mind is to strip programs of their individuality which they clearly have.
2. A program is always a program, depending on which world you base your opinion on then in the real world  smith is considered an exile program yet in the matrix he is not, because he is the only entity within it apart from the one of course
3. We do not know what the oracle said to trinity, we only know what trinity has told us. you cannot control love it is impossible, we can see that trinity has felt soemthing from the begining of the first film.  IMHO if what trinity said was true then the oracle read trinity like a book and attempted to point neo in her edirection without success as we see during his first visit when neo asks the oracle who she is talknig about when she says " i can see why she likes you", neo chose ot fall inlove with trinity on his own. the oracle knew this would happen that is why she never mentioned who because neo was not ready to know. Neo was not looking for the answer to the question he was inactual fact looking for to person or should i say his other half. this is the thing the oracle mentions that neo is waiting for. there are things you can say but then there are those you cannot or you risk  altering what is to come. this is why the oracle only vaguely dishes out the details of the choices that they have already made. never giving exacts or saying it will or it wont.

1. Here is my take on this one = many situation. By no accident are the machines able to choose if they want to be apart of the Source or not. In that way, it is not a system of slavery. There are many examples that machines and programs have individual experience, but I do not see how that proves that machines who have made the choice to contribute to the system of the Source are not sharing the mind of that same source. Satis parents are an example of the machine individual experience, but at the same time, they know what they want has no place in the "entity" and then resort to the help of the Frenchman. They have to seperate from the entity in order to complete the task, and the actions take place outside of the group which I believe would make them exiles. The B166 trial gives birth to the acknowledgement of machine individuality, IMO wherever the machines became a "network" is where the "entity" itself is born. For me, neo has these powers & vision outside the matrix only because he had been to the source. Having access to the Source entity lets him see the program smith in the real as well as get elevated by the sentinel 'soul'.  I view The city of light, of shared power the visual to show this streamline of power. It is wireless Software.  The machines in this network accept its logic, power, and individually participate in its representation in some ways similiar to that of a Cristian Crusader during a holy war still being apart of the Christian communtiy motivated by faith. But I think it is unfair to compare the AI machine network to any human group because these machines all get their energy from the same source, it is something we simply can not relate. Where many machines make one babyface to have one voice. Neo is aware of this software and speaks to it directly, here the humans have what the machines did not during the meetings at the Global UN, a representative that can fully relate to the logic of both sides. He still must hardwire into the Matrix for the final fight, and my guess is anything that was left was returned to the Source.

3. So there is no proof it was what the Oracle said verbatim, but what trinity does say the Oracle "told" her at the end of the first film makes clear to the audience 2 things:

  A. He can't be dead because she is in love with him.

  B. In demonstrating that he can bend the rules of dying inside the Matrix, he is, or at least will become the one.

well put my friend but its one point i would like to make regarding your statement. in the real world smith is considered an exile as Neo was given the all clear to delete him. but in the matrix he is not for he is the only being to inhabit it. theoretically he had control over the machines due to the fact that he controled the RSI's of the blue pills. ressetting the matrix would not eradicate him because you cannot wipe the minds of those that are plugged in or they will die. the only way to eradicate him would be to destroy all those plugged in to the system. which would never of been done.

And laz my good man your statement "A. He can't be dead because she is in love with him."

is wrong as Trinity clearly says " Neo im not afraid any more, the oracle told me thhat i would fall in love and that man, the man that i fell in love with would be the one, so you can be dead" yes thats right she tells us that the neo died. and also smith tells us that he died by the hands of neo.

"B. In demonstrating that he can bend the rules of dying inside the Matrix, he is, or at least will become the one." 

He is told he has the gift required to be the one but was also told that even thoguh he had the gift he was waiting for something, this something could of been death, or trinity to confess her love to him. to be honest i dont think we will ever know for sure as they both happen in the same scene.

now you mus talso consider this, when morpheus took neo to see the oracle then the woman opens the door and directs neo inot the livingroom she says " you can wait here with the other potentials" meaning that neo was not the only one with the gift there as more than one there were many. this point could explain why smith was given his overwriting powers. because the Anomoly existed in more than one individual. you notice that smith does not use his flying ability until the end of the film. why is this, perhaps the assimilation of the other potentials gave him those powers.

ok so you need convincing well her it goes

Neo offered his life to protect those lacked in he had nothnig to lose. but the machines were about to lose everything. they sruck a deal peace in exchange for putting as stop to smith. how do you stop that which you cannot control

Simple remove it, destroy it, eradicate it. just as we try to do with pests. Just because they never said it directly does not mean it was not siad.

please read the posts from the beginning a post for i have used almost all the  quotes and scenes you throw at me, you are simply repeating what i myself have already explained

ok so you need convincing well her it goes

Neo offered his life to protect those lacked in he had nothnig to lose. but the machines were about to lose everything. they sruck a deal peace in exchange for putting as stop to smith. how do you stop that which you cannot control

Simple remove it, destroy it, eradicate it. just as we try to do with pests. Just because they never said it directly does not mean it was not siad.

Exactly.  That which the system cannot control is considered an exile.  Smith was a corrupted program.  When he could no longer be controlled, they called the exterminator, Neo.

And just because they never say they're trying to delete Smith doesn't mean they aren't right? 

"You?!"  "Me.  Me.  Me."

well put my friend but its one point i would like to make regarding your statement. in the real world smith is considered an exile as Neo was given the all clear to delete him. but in the matrix he is not for he is the only being to inhabit it. theoretically he had control over the machines due to the fact that he controled the RSI's of the blue pills. ressetting the matrix would not eradicate him because you cannot wipe the minds of those that are plugged in or they will die. the only way to eradicate him would be to destroy all those plugged in to the system. which would never of been done.

And laz my good man your statement "A. He can't be dead because she is in love with him."

is wrong as Trinity clearly says " Neo im not afraid any more, the oracle told me thhat i would fall in love and that man, the man that i fell in love with would be the one, so you can be dead" yes thats right she tells us that the neo died. and also smith tells us that he died by the hands of neo.

"B. In demonstrating that he can bend the rules of dying inside the Matrix, he is, or at least will become the one." 

He is told he has the gift required to be the one but was also told that even thoguh he had the gift he was waiting for something, this something could of been death, or trinity to confess her love to him. to be honest i dont think we will ever know for sure as they both happen in the same scene.

now you mus talso consider this, when morpheus took neo to see the oracle then the woman opens the door and directs neo inot the livingroom she says " you can wait here with the other potentials" meaning that neo was not the only one with the gift there as more than one there were many. this point could explain why smith was given his overwriting powers. because the Anomoly existed in more than one individual. you notice that smith does not use his flying ability until the end of the film. why is this, perhaps the assimilation of the other potentials gave him those powers.

in one way you are right Garu

but then you are also wrong.

 Smith was holding all the keys.

With control of all the rsi's in the matrix smith had control. the machines could not destroy every trace of him for they would lose their power source. but what the machines knew that smith didnt was that when you combine to opposites they cancel each other out what was why smith was recreated and the reason they struck a deal with the one. they knew that that only one of the 2 could destroy the other but must inturn sacrifice their own life. sticking to this train of thought we can go with the causality theory, for every cause there is an effect, or more precisely put for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. this theory can be applied to not only actions but objects, elements and even humans themselves. think of neo and smith as both negative and positive electrons when one touches the other the cancel each other out

taking this into account you should now better understand my logic when i tell you that smith was not considered an exile but instead a threat

if you look up exile in a dictionary even here may come to the conclusion that perhaps smith  considers himself an exile even though the facts in the film suggest otherwise