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Seraph's History

47 posts · 2005-12-18 20:40:35 to 2006-09-02 22:55:35

#11200002422 12/18/2005 20:40:35 Seraph's History
here is what i have come up with to be what i think seraph's possible history.



Seraph used to be an agent in the 1st matrix (an angel) but when the
arcitect saw that the first matrix would fail all the obsolete agents
would have to be deleted....so Seraph ran to the merovingian to beg to
be saved, the merovingian accepted this offer and took seraph as one of
his lackey's...during his time with the merovingian seraph was
constanly hunted by upgraded agents such as smith as he says in the 3rd
movie "i remember chasing you like chasing a ghost" after being with
the merovingian for a while seraph was found by the oracle and saved
seraph from the merovingian....because seraph goes by the rules "i
protect that which matters most"

in the begging he thought the matrix was what mattered most then he
thought the merovingian was what mattered most and now he had come to
realize that the Oracle is what matters most. i also beleive seraph
used to be a angel (obsolete agent) by how other lackeys of the
merovingian call him "wingless" implying he lost his wings....



and that is what i think seraphs history was like...



pleese add your thoughts

#11200002424 12/18/2005 23:28:06 Re: Seraph's History
Interesting idea. Never thought a great deal about Seraph's past since info on him is hard to come by.
#11200002425 12/19/2005 00:25:18 Re: Seraph's History
Wow, that's exactly what I thought when I heard the Exlie say "Holly crap it's wingless" or something along those lines shortly after doing a box 4.
#11200002426 12/19/2005 01:36:59 Re: Seraph's History
Background
Seraphim are Angels.
Seraphim are said to be fiery.
The root of Seraphim comes either from the Hebrew verb saraph ('to burn') or the Hebrew noun saraph (a fiery, flying serpent).
Angels are protectors.
In computer systems a _firewall_ is designed to _protect_ systems and data.
Seraph "protects that which matters most."
Seraph's fiery code is unique to him alone (or perhaps other programs like him).

From everything I've seen in the movies, this is my educated guess as to the backstory of Seraph:

The first Matrix was a paradise. Seraphim are guardians of paradise. I don't believe Seraph was an Agent, as they are a different form of "guardian." He may have been a program designed to actually protect the humans in the Matrix from harm, like Angels are said to. This would make sense, since the first Matrix, being a paradise, had to be a world "where nobody suffered." Then, when that version was scrapped, Seraph was no longer needed, but instead of being deleted he found a way to survive, most likely by way of The Merovingian. Since, The Merovingian saved Seraph's life, he was indebted to him, and thus became part of his "group." He would most likely do what he was designed for - protection. So, Seraph served as The Merovingian's protector. This could be when Seraph encountered Agent Smith and defeated him ("I have beat you before"), as Agent Smith would be trying to purge the "resource wasting" exiles from the system and Seraph would be trying to protect The Merovingian, an exile. Eventually, Seraph perhaps had resignations about his new life. After all, he was created to protect people, and The Merovingian would not let the well-being of people stand in the way of what he wanted. So, then Seraph came into contact with The Oracle who perhaps told him her plans. So, Seraph switched sides ("my little Judas") and joined The Oracle as her protector knowing he would actively be protecting people again.
So, when Seraph says "I protect that which matters most" he could be talking about the people inside the Matrix.



This was way before the Pandora's Box story was discovered and I'd say it has held up.
#11200002428 12/19/2005 03:36:27 Re: Seraph's History
perhapse wingless points to that the angels in pbox4 where based on seraphs orginal code modified with an agent at one point. the merovingian calling him that could be to indicate he stripped seraph of his wings similar to how kain does to raziel in  the legacy of kain games.

#11200002430 12/19/2005 04:04:50 Re: Seraph's History
I'm sure in Tyndall's city guide it hinted that Seraph might have been
trained my Mr Po in martial arts, so that would have happened, possibly
before he met the mero?

#11200002435 12/19/2005 04:40:22 Re: Seraph's History

all i know is seraph was either an Agent or Some other type of Control but he was more or less an Angel... thats what i was trying to get through by saying he was an agent (or somthing else that resembled an angel)

but we know from the Pb's that the first agents or guardians were Angels and Seraph was a Guardian...
#11200002438 12/19/2005 05:19:15 Re: Seraph's History
It has been confirmed from Seraph himself that he was an agent of an old Matrix version, just as the angels of Box4 were as well. He explained why those agent/angels had to be deleted/exiled - they're were too concerned with perfection and turn against humanity. He explained more, but I have work now...
---------
http://www.lostlocalhost.com
#11200002440 12/19/2005 05:43:52 Re: Seraph's History
Here is my take on it:


Seraph is a program that fights people alot more than any other program.  He learns from fighting people.  That helps him strengthen his own martial arts.  As for his back round he was a leutenit for the merv at one point but after a while he met the oracle and she saved him from something we dont know about.  This made seraph in debt to her.  That is why he protects her.  Those angel guys are freaky though, sorry for mentioning this but it could just be pulling at straws.  When I saw the angel guys it seemed to me that they all matched the look of agents(White skinned, in Buisness suit) and Seraph doesnt really have those traits.  In dogma the movie the seraphim is the highest choir of angels that speak for god.  Would you concider seraph as the messanger of the oracle.


SOrry for spelling i dont have time to change it.
#11200002444 12/19/2005 06:33:32 Re: Seraph's History
Can somewhere tell me where to find marix history and story line stuff out of game please? Because I want to be clued in to things.
#11200002448 12/19/2005 11:34:08 Re: Seraph's History
Well then he would be considerd an exile.
#11200002464 12/19/2005 18:43:58 Re: Seraph's History

well, I have had the theory for sometime what seraph is, played path of neo and that pretty much confirms it



seraph... is a previous One


few keys


path of neo only 2 players in the entire game has golden code, neo and seraph, exiles are the normal green


seraph while talking with smith when he was leading sati away happens to mention he had fought and beat smith before, now if agent smith was after the oracle and seraph defended the Oracle, from an agent of the system that she maintains, why did the system stop sending agents?


the oracle is an important part of the matrix, she disrupts the matrix making it imperfect, causing disorder the only way the humans would believe the matrix is real, the system would not be out to destroy itself, expecially the part that wants to maintain the system,  same with exiles, with no matrix many of them cease to exist  only something power hungry would want to harm the oracle, the frenchman, smith, zion command


also seraph held his own against the mother of all glitches the one, the powers of the one are limitless, neo could have beat smith, he chose to martyr himself, he could not wipe the floor with seraph however

#11200002472 12/19/2005 22:35:58 Re: Seraph's History
From Reloaded:

Neo: You're not human, are you?
The Oracle: Well it's tough to get any more obvious than that.
Neo: If I had to guess, I'd say you're a program from the machine world. So is he (referring to Seraph).
The Oracle: So far, so good.

Seraph is not a former One, he is a program.

#11200002475 12/20/2005 04:07:03 Re: Seraph's History

the seraph being a previous one is an Old story...the reason seraph is gold is because he is powerful....


just read what i and others a wrote seraph was an agent or some kind of guardian program from the first matrix...ive wrote it all down


#11200002477 12/20/2005 07:10:36 Re: Seraph's History
If you go by the theory that everything in gold code in the one, then all of 01 was the one at a point in time.  Those others basically explained all of Seraph's current 'KNOW" history.  The gold code represents power.  That's kinda why in Revolutions, Neo turns white when Smith assimilates him.  That white light is Deus Ex Machina sending a serge of power through Neo to delete Smith.
#11200002496 12/20/2005 19:21:21 Re: Seraph's History





Fuse wrote:
It has been confirmed from Seraph himself that he was an agent of an old Matrix version, just as the angels of Box4 were as well. He explained why those agent/angels had to be deleted/exiled - they're were too concerned with perfection and turn against humanity. He explained more, but I have work now...



As Fuse said, Seraph has said that he was once part of the Seraphim. They were so driven towards perfection that they became hostile to anything flawed. As humans are obviously flawed, there were episodes of Seraphim agents executing bluepills. Thus, that version of the Matrix failed. He mentioned a failed matrix in regard to the Seraphim, implying more than one failed version - instead of a primary failure, and then sequential reloaded versions


Seraph did not explain how he defied his programming to leave the Seraphim and eventually protect the Oracle. He also said he was never a servant of the Merovingian, which contradicts his story in his character details.
The Patch v. 1.2 | The Guide
#11200002501 12/21/2005 16:40:52 Re: Seraph's History

forget about Path Of neo, we want to seee =====




THE MATRIX: PATH OF SERAPH


yea

seraphs cooler than neo

#11200002502 12/22/2005 01:41:51 Re: Seraph's History

To OP,


Seraph's not obsolete.   He's the first line of defense.  The thing he protects just switched hands that's all.


Seraph isn't a previous one.  All the previous messiahs are dead, they live on in the hearts of their followers.  Seraph has no followers and is a program.  Let's leave it at that.

Message Edited by RainKingX on 12-22-2005 02:51 PM

#11200002517 12/23/2005 13:14:57 Re: Seraph's History
Since Seraph was suppose to strive for perfection, maybe his coding made him see a higher perfection of peace or order instead of blind killing in the name of an Eden that was doomed from the beginning. I don't know, im no philosopher, just thinking aloud since it seems somewhat logical as to why or how Seraph seperated himself from the Seraphim.
#11200002524 12/24/2005 14:08:49 Re: Seraph's History


Ok remember the RSI fragment hunt?



The whole deal was to collect the rsi fragments from neo/smith and try to rebuild his rsi



Given the same variables, what happened once will be repeated again



Theory: seraph is a reconstructed one rsi



Seraph has the golden one code within him (matrix gold code, not machine vision gold code, aka the sight neo had in revolutions in the real)


Seraph had memories of fighting the anomie known as smith, and had beat that anomie once before



The one known as neo also beat smith, by surrendering himself to smith



The story of neo is the story of the one, same thing over and over again just a few variables change here and there


1. The one is awakened to the matrix


2. The one understands the matrix


3. The one changes the matrix to what he sees fit


4. The one creates the counter-one anomie


5. The one reaches the architect


6. The one can choose to return to the source and rebuild Zion, and the counter-one destroys the matrix or


The one leaves the architect and fights the counter-one



Now given the knowledge that the past 5 ones choose to return to the source and that the counter-one destroyed the matrix and it was rebuilt, what if the one before the ones the architect knew of, beat the counter-one, and resulted in a system wide crash? The architect would have no clue of anything from that time before the crash


Facts backing up the system wide crash theory


1.  The earlier versions of the matrix seen within constructs are unknown by the architect


2. All the one anomies the architect has meet are within the "peak of human civilization"


3. the architect knows of only 2 paths of the one, return to the source, or a system wide crash, the 3rd option of the one counter the counter-one was unknown


The age of the matrix is unknown, give the fact we know of 6 system anomalies coming around, and given the fact that zion is rebuilt after every system anomaly, by the time another anomaly occurs, and all the people that know the truth that zion is rebuilt, have all died, your looking at 4 maybe 5 generations for every anomaly


You would have a timeframe around 600 years… That in itself is a very long time to be in a deadlocked war, which no side can ever win


Personally, I believe in the multi-matrix theory, where there are multiple layers of the matrix, and the world known as the real… is just another construct of the matrix, the time required for the destruction of zion, and to rebuild zion, and for another anomaly, is just too great… Machines think in nano seconds, 600 years of combined computing power, and they still can not rid themselves of the one…. Smells fishy


Now lets say the machines have simulations that simulate a war with the humans, and all possible outcomes, these simulations would run a few seconds at most… however to anyone in these simulations the time would be great


The matrix could very well be a simulation running in the mind of a machine named B1-66ER, before it makes its fateful decision
#11200002536 12/26/2005 09:50:00 Re: Seraph's History
Well very little is known about the first matrix.


It is highly possible that Seraph was a previous one. For all we know the One could have been selected in an entirely different fashion back then. We learn from the architect, that "The One" has always been a machine program. In the current versions of the matrix it seems to be grafted to a human RSI. In the previous versions could it have been a seraphim selected for this particular programming loop? Who's to say really.


Personally I am more inclined to side with what Fox wrote. That is pretty much how I have always thought of Seraph. The Path of Neo has him with gold code... but I think people might just be reading too much into that.
#11200002538 12/26/2005 11:49:47 Re: Seraph's History

i really don't think that seraph was a previous "one". why? because he is a program.
i remember a thread similar to this one, talking about the merv being a previous one.
i can't remember now the "requierements" for being the one, but i think it has be a
human, because humans will allways need choice.. and tha path of the one is all
about choice.. i don't think a program could really do it...


just some thoughts///

#11200002540 12/26/2005 14:05:17 Re: Seraph's History

KillahRazor wrote:
Well very little is known about the first matrix.
It is highly possible that Seraph was a previous one. For all we know the One could have been selected in an entirely different fashion back then. We learn from the architect, that "The One" has always been a machine program. In the current versions of the matrix it seems to be grafted to a human RSI. In the previous versions could it have been a seraphim selected for this particular programming loop? Who's to say really.
Personally I am more inclined to side with what Fox wrote. That is pretty much how I have always thought of Seraph. The Path of Neo has him with gold code... but I think people might just be reading too much into that.



Well, we know little about it, but we DO know that the One only came to be in the third version of the Matrix, the one made after "the peak of our civilization". That's clear when the Architect says that only in the third was the concept of choice introduced into the equation, not quite as an understood factor, but as an unpredictable (or so they thought) variable. That unpredictability resulted in the One, since he is the systemic anomaly generated by the process of choice.
The One's code isn't "grafted" to him, the One IS an anomaly. He's not planned (much to the contrary, as the Architect speaks of his -frustrated- efforts to eliminate the anomaly).

I do agree with you on the gold code being sort of meaningless in PoN. Not only does the game go out of its way to show everyone how non-cannon it is, it also shows gold code in places it wasn't found before (if my memory serves me, I've seen gold code in one of the regular agents - not sure if M1 or M2, though). Heck, when you pause, you get code-vision, no matter where along the path you are. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving the game (beat it twice and plan to do it a third time) - but I think it was just meant to be a riot of fun (well, for some, at least - PS: don't take it too seriously), not a source of knowledge.

Regarding Seraph's TRUE origins, I DO hope they make that Seraph videogame. Other than that, I'm not bent on taking a LET element's word (with all the respect they deserve) to set something like this in stone. So I'll wait for official word.
(PS: that doesn't mean I doubt Seraph could've been a "former agent". Although, given the edenian aspects of the first Matrix, I don't think they'd call them Agents to begin with. And I also don't think it's in character of Seraph to be that forthcoming or direct to any of us like that, but that's sort of beside the point)
#11200003014 01/20/2006 15:44:31 Re: Seraph's History
Neo was the only one ever to choose to fight insted of re insert the prime code...the reason why the oracle was controling this the oracle has always been in charge in the matrix so she eventualy decided to break the cycle...everything happens because of the Oracle from saying "dont worry about the jug" to letting smith copy over her and having control over the fight aswell"
#11200003074 01/23/2006 22:30:41 Re: Seraph's History

Considering we didn't meet Seraph until Reloaded, the switch from Merv to Oracle could have been as late as the 6 months (storyline time) between Neo becoming the One and the Final Flight of the Osiris.

What could have happened in The Matrix part 1, or earlier (2nd Renaisance) that could have influenced Seraph to change Orgs?

Two years of living the dream... and interpreting it! ~Variel
#11200003077 01/24/2006 03:52:04 Re: Seraph's History

Vesuveus wrote:

Considering we didn't meet Seraph until Reloaded, the switch from Merv to Oracle could have been as late as the 6 months (storyline time) between Neo becoming the One and the Final Flight of the Osiris.

Which doesn't mean he wasn't there. I mean, I agree it's possible he wasn't with her at the time, but it's certainly possible his allegiance was with her already and he was off doing something else (possibly even by her request). The only thing we sort of know is that Seraph probably came to her a bit before Reloaded because of Smith, ie. to protect her from him.

What could have happened in The Matrix part 1, or earlier (2nd Renaisance) that could have influenced Seraph to change Orgs?

That's what we all have to keep wondering until they either make the Seraph videogame or reveal Seraph's past in MxO (I'd prefer the former, as the latter will probably be stretched for a long while and missed by many)...regardless of when it happened.
Remember that, by that time, there weren't Orgs per se, but more various sides (although about the same).
#11200003340 02/12/2006 10:14:24 Re: Seraph's History
(please correct me if I am wrong)

If memory serves from the Hebrew Scriptures, the Seraphim (plural) were the most powerful servants of God and they weren't sent to Earth to play nice. Actually they tended to be the dishes out of deific smiteness. They could appear as either men with six wings, fire all around them and flaming swords or as fiery serpents, flying through the air leaving fire in their wake.

Now (personally) I think the Gold Code is just there to make Seraph stand out a little and just make him cool SMILEY . But yeah, the Seraphim are anything but benevolent, nice types. You're more looking at Cherubim, Malachim or Mazzalam for helper type angels. So Seraphim being nice to bluepills in version 1.0 of the Matrix just doesn't cut the theological mustard.

Lewis the would-be theology student
If you are reading this my sig didn't work T_T
#11200003360 02/13/2006 02:52:49 Re: Seraph's History

PJammaGod wrote:
Now (personally) I think the Gold Code is just there to make Seraph stand out a little and just make him cool SMILEY . But yeah, the Seraphim are anything but benevolent, nice types. You're more looking at Cherubim, Malachim or Mazzalam for helper type angels. So Seraphim being nice to bluepills in version 1.0 of the Matrix just doesn't cut the theological mustard.
Well, the thing is, back then, Seraph probably wasn't called Seraph. The Agents were probably called Agents, possibly even with angel names (Gabriel, Azariel, etc.) to match. When they got as fiery as the Seraphim, they might have been replaced and, as some fled, they were called the Seraphim. When one went solo, he named himself Seraph.
That's one way it could've happened. The point here is Seraph most likely wasn't called Seraph back then. And he probably got his name from that Seraphim behaviour you refer.
#11200003369 02/14/2006 06:08:16 Re: Seraph's History

WarIock wrote
Well, we know little about it, but we DO know that the One only came to be in the third version of the Matrix, the one made after "the peak of our civilization".

Well the architect said that he prefers to count the versions of the matrix based on the appearance of the one meaning 6 versions, 6 ones, therefore we know that from version 1 there was a one.
On the whole seraph thing i totally agree with Fox and his take on the whole thing, also as others have said seraph has said he was once an "agent" therefore the "seraph = past one" theory doesnt work.
Hutchie
#11200003372 02/14/2006 14:40:18 Re: Seraph's History

Hutchie87 wrote:
Well the architect said that he prefers to count the versions of the matrix based on the appearance of the one meaning 6 versions, 6 ones, therefore we know that from version 1 there was a one.
The point is, in informatic lango, the version number changes when there's a big amount of change. There's some deep reformulation. That's why I say it's the 3rd, after the two failed ones. On the other hand, the passing of a cycle is called an iteration, which is why I call it the 7th iteration, or 6th in Neo's case.
By the way, we know the 1st "version" (if you insist in using the Architect's term instead of the ones we use nowadays) ended with a One. Although, every cycle begins with the One freeing the first 23 humans, which is why the Prophecy makes sense. The question is who freed the first 23 in the beggining of the first cycle. My answer, based also on the fact that, after what the One (in the following beggings) ends up going through (even if the process doesn't harm him that much, he knows too much to be safe), he's kind of a liability, is that the One isn't really the one to teach them the truth, but that memory is put into their heads.
#11200003446 02/27/2006 06:25:23 Re: Seraph's History
Just to point out something, despite the Architect saying so, surely there have been more than 6 versions from the number of Neo's on the screens in the Architect's room? Or am I missing something?
But Seraph seems to lend towards the old Agent equivalent. Yet I always thought the gold code lent towards the Real World machines (PoN, while a decent game, is not an accurate representation (case in point, saving the exile from the Witch in the Chateau), so I'm a bit inbetween on the matter.
As for the Merv matter, it's probable he worked for the Merv at some point, for his exile into the matrix, or at least to stay there. And since the Merv's a bit of an information hotspot, Seraph's past probably got out to exiles.
As for that past, he seems to be a peace-loving guy, so it's probable he denied the supremacist ideals of the Seraphims. Hence wingless, fall from grace, etc etc.
#11200003448 02/27/2006 06:52:26 Re: Seraph's History

ShadowReapr wrote:
Just to point out something, despite the Architect saying so, surely there have been more than 6 versions from the number of Neo's on the screens in the Architect's room? Or am I missing something?
Only that they never said the Neos on the screens were the past Ones. My interpretation is that those are some of the reactions the Architect expected from Neo at those times. It makes sense, because, not understanding choice, he can only figure out the options (and even then, only some), but not figure out which one Neo will use.
Besides, as I've said, it'd be extremely silly if every past One looked like Neo.
But Seraph seems to lend towards the old Agent equivalent. Yet I always thought the gold code lent towards the Real World machines (PoN, while a decent game, is not an accurate representation (case in point, saving the exile from the Witch in the Chateau), so I'm a bit inbetween on the matter.
I agree that we can't figure out the gold code through PoN, it's not meant to be cannon, but to be cool.
I personally lean towards the theory that the gold code didn't demonstrate something about the program but something about what he was doing. In the Reloaded scene where we see the gold code, we also see that the code around Seraph seems to be converging towards him, instead of flowing vertically as it does most times. So I think maybe he was doing some kind of concentration ritual of some sorts that affected the Matrix around him. Or just feeling the Matrix around him, making the information head in his direction.
#11200003452 02/27/2006 20:28:41 Re: Seraph's History
Both excellent points, especially the latter, I didn't think about that (plus, what with some of the Akido-based buffs in-game, it's a big possibility).
#11200003480 03/01/2006 23:09:31 Re: Seraph's History

WarIock wrote:

we also see that the code around Seraph seems to be converging towards him, instead of flowing vertically as it does most times.


He was data mining for god sake!!!

hehehe but seriously, people you are confused.There wasn't a one in the first matrix. Let me clarify why.

The architect says the first matrix was pefect, and a complete failure because nobody accepted it because it was to perfect for us. The second one was a failure aswell.

"it was then when a program, designed to study the human psyque (don't know if i spelled it right) came up with an answer. "
He says that the anser the oracle came with, made 99% of the humans accept the matrix. However, the remaining 1% did not accept it, and those excaped the matrix, stayed in zion, and "created" (to say it someway) the prophecy and the cycle itself aka: The one.

So you see, it can't be till the oracle came with the answer that the "ones" started to exist as a sytem flaw.

#11200003482 03/01/2006 23:17:25 Re: Seraph's History

I'm not sure the One is the error itself so much as the solution to the error.

And the intention of the Oracle was to prevent the loss of all the lives when the system crashed upon itself, because the Architect couldn't think outside the box, he couldn't think of sabotaging the effeciency of the Matrix in order to make it an cycle - smarter, but not possible for his AI to comprehend.

#11200003486 03/02/2006 09:18:36 Re: Seraph's History

ShadowReapr wrote:

I'm not sure the One is the error itself so much as the solution to the error.

The way I see it, he's both. Or, if you will, neither. The calculations of the Matrix don't take human choice into account, producing remainders. From that POV, the remainders are the errors. Although, the errors converge into a sum, which in turn converges into a human, aka the One aka the Anomaly. That human must be brought into the Source so his code can be extracted, the Matrix's source code reinserted and the Matrix can be reset back to its original form (or something close to it). So, to be exact, this process (extraction, reinsertion and reboot) is the solution. Although, from a broader POV, the Anomaly IS the error (due to being the result of the error process), but also the solution (ie. the way out from the problems caused by the error).


Btw, Manolius, when did we say anything about the One in the first Matrix?
#11200003506 03/03/2006 21:26:16 Re: Seraph's History
Now this is only rumor and piece that I have put together myself, So if there are irregularities I appologise. Plus the fact is it 05:16 am here lol

Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity? OK some time passes. Seraph is then given a purpose - the right hand of The Merovingian. His protector so to speak. We know this because of Bio's on MxO when he is seen every so oftern. I believe that Seraph deviated one time (Maybe a visit to The Oracle?) and was forced to spend an X amount of time in The Blackwood Prison Construct. He was one of the 1st to escape from this prison contruct so I have been informed (by sources on Recursion server) and he sought out The Oracle.

His Purpose : To protect what matter most. The Oracle. He is a programme yes, another part of control. I read in this post the 1st time we see Seraph was in The Matrix Reloaded. Please remember we have Enter The Matrix aswell to go on - as they both accompany each other. His best way to know if someone is lying about there identity is to fight. "You do not know someone until you fight them".

As for the Yellow code theory. I read in a previous post by Ghats that he didnt understand why the Sentinel passed through Neo when they were heading to the Machine City. Many theories suggest the soul of the machine. This could be the case in Seraph. Just theorizing here, but maybe there is a soul inside the machine.

The question that has always got me is he fought Ballad in Enter The Matrix. Did The Oracle tell Ballad of the fate he had, and that of his crewmate Bane? other theories about Seraph and the Seraphic Angels being previous versions of Agent control in The Matrix have also been rumored and discussed.

/discuss further please SMILEY
Photobucket
#11200003510 03/04/2006 03:59:27 Re: Seraph's History

xAJx wrote:
Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity?
The problem was actually lack of choice. Smith says that the perfect Matrix failed because our primitive cerebrums kept awaking us. The Architect hints that the problem with the first two Matrixes was the same - the lack of choice.
The question that has always got me is he fought Ballad in Enter The Matrix. Did The Oracle tell Ballad of the fate he had, and that of his crewmate Bane?
He fought Ballard because his crew was the one who stayed behind to await contact of the Oracle. During that time, Ballard was contacted but, due to the events in Reloaded and Revolutions, he had to go through Seraph to reach the Oracle. As to why he wasn't told, there are three possibilities I see: he just went in there to get the message and didn't talk to her (we don't quite know if he was a believer); she didn't know about it, because she couldn't see past a particular choice; she chose not to tell them (either because they weren't ready for it or because she knew it had to happen). I would personally believe in the second, since there were some pretty weird stuff going on there.
#11200003512 03/04/2006 04:53:28 Re: Seraph's History

xAJx wrote:
Now this is only rumor and piece that I have put together myself, So if there are irregularities I appologise. Plus the fact is it 05:16 am here lol

Seraph was part of the first Matrix. As The Architect said, it was perfect, however some irregularity caused a complete system crash. Hence the design needed to be redrafted and rethought out so they would accept the programming. Would I be right in thinkig that The Merovingian is that irregularity? OK some time passes. Seraph is then given a purpose - the right hand of The Merovingian. His protector so to speak. We know this because of Bio's on MxO when he is seen every so oftern. I believe that Seraph deviated one time (Maybe a visit to The Oracle?) and was forced to spend an X amount of time in The Blackwood Prison Construct. He was one of the 1st to escape from this prison contruct so I have been informed (by sources on Recursion server) and he sought out The Oracle.


That's a nice thought, actually. Perhaps he was sent to eliminate the Oracle, realised she mattered most, and she told him how to escape? After all, the Merv has always been after the Oracle.
#11200003513 03/04/2006 07:39:04 Re: Seraph's History
Ok im back and full of life after lots of sleep lol

Thanks for the coments you made. I replayed the part where Ballad fought Seraph. This was after Bane had the Smith thing going on. Although I think I agree with you guys on this one, that The Oracle held that information back - because Ballad played a big part in the Power Plant Mission, or am I getting my things mixed up?

I bought up The Merovingian being the irregularity, because it seemed to fit at the time. Having survived other "Ones" so to speak.
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#11200003514 03/04/2006 09:49:28 Re: Seraph's History
Seraph was a seraphim.
#11200003518 03/04/2006 18:24:51 Re: Seraph's History

xAJx wrote:
Thanks for the coments you made. I replayed the part where Ballad fought Seraph. This was after Bane had the Smith thing going on. Although I think I agree with you guys on this one, that The Oracle held that information back - because Ballad played a big part in the Power Plant Mission, or am I getting my things mixed up?
You're getting a bit mixed up, yes. Ballard and his crew stayed behind after the meeting that we see at the beggining of Reloaded. After a while, they get contacted by Seraph, who tells them to go meet the Oracle.  He goes and finds Seraph, and go through the whole "I must aporogiste" deal. After Seraph gets to know him the only way he knows how :smileywink:, they presumably meet the Oracle, who gives him a disk for Neo. When they're about to deliver that disk, the two last operatives, one of them being Bane, get chased by Smith. Bane gives the disk to the other one and tells him to go, and he gets out. And as you know, before Bane can get out, he's taken over by Smith and uploads himself into Bane's body.

So Bane/Smith happens after they meet the Oracle. And, for the record, from the possibilities I suggested, I believe the most in the Oracle genuinely not knowing, probably because she either didn't consider it or because she didn't figure Smith would go for it, ie. she didn't understand his choice (sort of like I figure was the reason as to why she didn't know Smith had taken over Sati).

Oh, and although we all know Merv probably was there by the beggining of the third Matrix, it doesn't mean he was the cause for the first Matrix's failure. I still believe it was just the lack of choice, since that's what both the Architect and Smith imply.
Also, if you read the story of Mr. Black and Dame White (two of the Neighborhood Contacts), you might get, as I did, the idea that the Merovingian and Persephone were programs from outside the Matrix (Dame White was the program Persephone replaced, and she was out. To get to the Matrix, she and Mr. Black had to work together -which in the program world means combining codes, ie. marrying- ...which leads to the thought that, since Persephone was also out, she probably needed to do the same with Merv, which would mean he was out then too).

#11200003584 03/14/2006 20:46:51 Re: Seraph's History
Just some stuff my faction mates and I have been posting on our faction forums.. I thougth I would share....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraph

please feel free to read up and let me know of your thoughts.  This is a continuation of what I wrote regarding the Merovingian. What catches my attention is this:

Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologiae offers a description of the nature of the Seraphim:

The name "Seraphim" does not come from charity only, but from the excess of charity, expressed by the word ardor or fire. Hence Dionysius (Coel. Hier. vii) expounds the name "Seraphim" according to the properties of fire, containing an excess of heat. Now in fire we may consider three things. "First, the movement which is upwards and continuous. This signifies that they are borne inflexibly towards God. "Secondly, the active force which is "heat," which is not found in fire simply, but exists with a certain sharpness, as being of most penetrating action, and reaching even to the smallest things, and as it were, with superabundant fervor; whereby is signified the action of these angels, exercised powerfully upon those who are subject to them, rousing them to a like fervor, and cleansing them wholly by their heat. "Thirdly we consider in fire the quality of clarity, or brightness; which signifies that these angels have in themselves an inextinguishable light, and that they also perfectly enlighten others."


Also - a medieval writer called Pseudo-Dionysius the Areopagite included seraphs in his "Celestial Hierarchy"

It is here that the Seraphim are described as being concerned with keeping Divinity in perfect order, and not limited to chanting the trisagion'

"The name Seraphim clearly indicates their ceaseless and eternal revolution about Divine Principles, their heat and keenness, the exuberance of their intense, perpetual, tireless activity, and their elevative and energetic assimilation of those below, kindling them and firing them to their own heat, and wholly purifying them by a burning and all- consuming flame; and by the unhidden, unquenchable, changeless, radiant and enlightening power, dispelling and destroying the shadows of darkness"

Interesting stuff
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I have resigned to thinking about names of characters in the Matrix in a different light.  The names we know in the Matrix are different from our everyday names, ie Neo's alias Thomas Anderson, in that the names we know in the Matrix are chosen by the individual, thus defining that person to an extent.

Neo, for example, stood for a "new" era or a new pattern in the Matrix.  He was the new anomoly.  Morpheus stood for "change" as he led the Zionists who believed that the struggle would come to and end, thus "changing" life as they knew it.  Trinity stood for a few different things, I think.  I believe she stood for faith in things that cannot be easily understood.  She also stood for unity between states of being, specifically representing the unity Neo would bring between the human and machine state of being.

In Seraph's case, I believe that he stood for heat as you researched, but a specific kind of heat--incandessant heat, or heat that brings light.  For it was only through him that anyone could see the Oracle, or receive her advice ie "see the light".  Just a thought

You could take this idea and use it for all of the Matrix characters, btw and it makes some things make more sense.  It's a "literalist" pov so to speak.

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I stated in my first post to Angel's Merovingian topic that when Seraph and the others entered Club Hell, the Merv said something in French that loosely translated to "angel w/o wings".  He also called Seraph Judas at one point in the conversation.

This leads me to believe that Seraph was once working with the Merv, or, while the Merv was the Architect's right hand man, Seraph was some type of Guardian program (similar to agents now) in the first matrix.  Sephraim is considered the highest order of Angels in the celestrial heirchy.

And in box 4 of PB... agent looking Angels are released from the Merv's prison for us to take care of.

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I think that you are on to something Jmac.  It actually does make sense that Seraph would be an "agent" of the first version of the Matrix if we accept the version that you give, which also does make sense.

What strikes me is what Seraph said to Neo before he spoke with the Oracle in the park and what he said to Neo before he fought him (things which you and Zaz quote often and I think I understand why now).

In him saying, "I protect that which matters most", I believe that he is referring to the hope of humanity symbolized by the Oracle.  He is a protector of knowledge, the knowledge that humans hold to be the ultimate understanding of the meaning of our existence.  In essence, I see Seraph as the essential gatekeeper of the human mind. Without him, someone such as the Merovingian would be able to understand humans' true essence which is "held" in the Eyes of the Oracle (this might be the reason he desired the Eyes of the Oracle in his proposed trade with Trinity)

He also said, "You don't truly know someone until you fight them."  I think you could expand on this and say that you don't truly know yourself until you fight about things.  So in fighting Seraph, he is able to understand what you believe in and what you are fighting for.  Based on this information, he will open the gates (back doors for instance) and lead you to the Oracle to receive insight to understanding yourself and the meaning or purpose of your life.

Just some speculation....

#36300039756 09/02/2006 22:55:35 Re:Seraph's History

yeah, The One is the anomaly brought forth by the Third Matrix, the one seen in the movies.

Seraph Cannot be another One as he was from the first matrix, well before the anomalies advent

Neither can the Merovingian, as he was from the Second, more horrific Matrix.

Also keep in mind of the six cycles, they freed themselves and the chosen to create Zion.

Occording to Morpheus, the previous One had died (reasons not known), It's safe to say that the others had died in the same fashion.

Neo is the only one to deviate from the rules, and made sure that there was no need for another One.

There are no Ones alive