Should the story be a grind?

I have just started the 12.1 collector missions and I'm at the point where I need 10 function fragments to get the 12.1.3 mission ticket. I personally think this is too much and it's a huge leap in difficulty from collecting just 1 Override Trace for the 12.1.2 mission ticket.

I understand the items being a grind as they're something to aim for, but for those of us who care more about the story it's not really fair seeing as in the old days you just had to complete the previous mission.

Keep a bit of collecting since it's part of the sequence of events but probably just 1 function fragment is enough. Save the big collections for the big rewards.

I think there should always be a challenge and it seems Rarebit is continually working on improvements to the story quest system.  12.1 is nowhere near as mind-numbing as 11.3 was, imo.  I'm hopeful that 12.2 (whenever the heck it comes out) will be even smoother.

No, the story shouldn't be a grind and it should also be fully accessible and doable by anyone from level 1-50, solo or group.  I still hate this new system with a passion.

Fen wrote:

No, the story shouldn't be a grind and it should also be fully accessible and doable by anyone from level 1-50, solo or group.  I still hate this new system with a passion.

Yup this new system just gets worse with each installment.  That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.  I've lost a couple of good Captains over this farming-crap-endlessly-as-a-substitute-for-content approach, and I have every right to complain about it.

One of the problems from an accessing storyline perspective is this.  You know if you stare unblinking at a picture or something for a long time, your periphial vision gets fuzzy and grey, and the image itself would turn to grey if you could stare even longer if you didn't have to blink?  I sort of get that now with these missions, I have to run them so many times to get the rewards that they just become a blur after a while.  A blur, a chore, a mindless barrage of endless tedium.  Honestly I think I don't care about the story anymore, which is too bad.  It was the original draw for me; now it isn't.  I could care less about bubblegum people.  I hope things change for the better but I'm not getting my hopes up.  Get used to endless, repetitive, mindless farm.

"What is The Farming?"

"The Farming is all around you, Neo."

.....

Fractor wrote:

I have just started the 12.1 collector missions and I'm at the point where I need 10 function fragments to get the 12.1.3 mission ticket. I personally think this is too much and it's a huge leap in difficulty from collecting just 1 Override Trace for the 12.1.2 mission ticket.

I understand the items being a grind as they're something to aim for, but for those of us who care more about the story it's not really fair seeing as in the old days you just had to complete the previous mission.

Keep a bit of collecting since it's part of the sequence of events but probably just 1 function fragment is enough. Save the big collections for the big rewards.

My answer to this specific case is "yes". 10 function fragments is not that much, I got them pretty fast. Plus this part of the quest is strongly story-related - given the absence of the Live Events, the players are meant to fight the new hostiles somehow, and I believe what was done for this part of the quest is the right way. It doesn't mean it can not be improved, it just means the approach itself is alright. IMHO

And I have to state once again that I feel very good about how the 12.1 quest is done as a whole (especially compared to the previous one, 11.3, where only the last part with fighting Danielle Wright was really exciting to me). 

I can't seem to find one positive thing about the New Approach.

Fractor wrote:

I have just started the 12.1 collector missions and I'm at the point where I need 10 function fragments to get the 12.1.3 mission ticket. I personally think this is too much and it's a huge leap in difficulty from collecting just 1 Override Trace for the 12.1.2 mission ticket.

Just to give you a few numbers for your argument:

The Override Trace drops at a 20% rate from level 42 NPCs, who appear mostly one at a time in a single neighborhood.

The Function Fragments drop at a 50% rate from level 53 NPCs, who appear mostly in pairs in a single neighborhood.

Getting the Trace is meant to be a bit of a challenge for a level 40 character (have to find and kill ~5 groups). Getting the Function Fragments is meant to be a bit more of a challenge, and for a level 50 character (have to find and kill ~10 groups).

I don't know about anyone else but I found the old criticals boring, samey, perhaps once in a while an obvious lead up to an LE with little to no advance of the story but most of all extremely short. Thus the story depended on daily LE's to move on.

The new approach allows the story to progress a decent amount whilst giving a challenge and some items to gain. Plus they also give a bigger challenge for some other items (executable mask, cap, headgear / wireframe shades) but it's not necessary to do.

The level requirements are still a drawback, I can see Rarebit's view that lower level characters would find the area itself too much, but I still say that as long as area mission NPC's are scaled to the right level, it's just getting there thats the issue and thats an added challenge. Of course with 12.1 came the spawning lvl 42's and 53's which would prevent lower levels from advancing unless they teamed with others.

Overall I like the current system, I find it much better (apart from the level req's aspect) than a single 5 minute mission every week for 5 weeks.

What would really improve the issue for many is increased LE's rather then changing the current mission system.

That said... I wonder how long it will take before each neighborhood has some type of storyline area spawn?

I for one liked having to jump around looking for more groups to take down. It didn't feel so much like "farming" in the traditional sense as it was taking the time to get a decent fight in across the neighbourhood.

Vinia wrote:

I don't know about anyone else but I found the old criticals boring, samey, perhaps once in a while an obvious lead up to an LE with little to no advance of the story but most of all extremely short. Thus the story depended on daily LE's to move on.

The new approach allows the story to progress a decent amount whilst giving a challenge and some items to gain. Plus they also give a bigger challenge for some other items (executable mask, cap, headgear / wireframe shades) but it's not necessary to do.

The level requirements are still a drawback, I can see Rarebit's view that lower level characters would find the area itself too much, but I still say that as long as area mission NPC's are scaled to the right level, it's just getting there thats the issue and thats an added challenge. Of course with 12.1 came the spawning lvl 42's and 53's which would prevent lower levels from advancing unless they teamed with others.

Overall I like the current system, I find it much better (apart from the level req's aspect) than a single 5 minute mission every week for 5 weeks.

What would really improve the issue for many is increased LE's rather then changing the current mission system.

That said... I wonder how long it will take before each neighborhood has some type of storyline area spawn?

As far as your dislike of the old crits...really?  I have to admit, I loved the old crits.  I took my time, made sure to talk to all of the NPC's, twice in the case of main characters.  I took my time so it took longer than 5 minutes.  I liked them because they gave me something to look forward to every Thursday.  I felt like I was part of a dynamic storyline.  Bottom line, between that and the LE's, I was engaged.  I'm sorry but these quests don't engage me.

Hmm maybe it's just me.  Maybe the players want World of MatrixCraft.

Anyways regardless I think I'll just stop bothering doing these quests, I don't enjoy them.  Besides, how many virtual pants can you get?  I dont have enough room for them anyways...my storgae alt needs a storage alt.

/shrug.  To each his own....I'll be gone from the simulation in due time.  There's just one last thing I need to do this Spring....

cloudwolf wrote:

I for one liked having to jump around looking for more groups to take down. It didn't feel so much like "farming" in the traditional sense as it was taking the time to get a decent fight in across the neighbourhood.

Seconded.

Villemar_MxO wrote:

I felt like I was part of a dynamic storyline.  Bottom line, between that and the LE's, I was engaged.

To be honest, the only part of the story that I was here for that I ever felt was dynamic was the outcome of the hovercraft battle over Lock. I would prefer the story being delivered over the 5/6 week period between updates, but that was done by LE's rather than crits imo. If there were more LE's to deliver the story over the remaining 5 weeks it would be better, but at least self started missions actually move the story along. Plus the fact they are there permanently means that I don't need to rush through them and if I miss anything I can redo it on the same character.

But as you said, to each their own and I respect your opinion on it.

Vinia wrote:

Villemar_MxO wrote:

I felt like I was part of a dynamic storyline.  Bottom line, between that and the LE's, I was engaged.

To be honest, the only part of the story that I ever felt was dynamic was the outcome of the hovercraft battle over Lock. I would prefer the story being delivered over the 5/6 week period between updates, but that was done by LE's rather than crits imo. If there were more LE's to deliver the story over the remaining 5 weeks it would be better, but at least self started missions actually move the story along. Plus the fact they are there permanently means that I don't need to rush through them and if I miss anything I can redo it on the same character.

But as you said, to each their own and I respect your opinion on it.

Cool, I think we're saying pretty much the same thing but from slightly different angles.  The dynamic aspect of it all had been a very strong draw for me.

Vinia wrote:

That said... I wonder how long it will take before each neighborhood has some type of storyline area spawn?

That's why I say these storyline quests have to be archived. And I will stick to this opinion until it's done.

I really liked the old system because you would have something to look forward to every week until the new patch came out. now you have all of the content thrown at you at once and once you finish it, no more. No live events to keep you entertained, no more missions, you have all of the items, Christmas items are done too...well um...what else can i do? For a person that has basically every quest item in the game, you have an idea on where I am coming from...I finished the winter content in about 2 days (not straight, few hours each day) and I finished the 12.1 content (missions and most items) in 4 days (again, few hours each day). I even got the archive effect item and some items I didn't have from 11.3 and still summed up to a week

The old way in my opinion was better and I still hold to the fact that I could be leaving soon...I am not the only one either because I am seeing a lot of vets quit this game...look at how many people just quit in the last week or 2.

Outlaw wrote:

I really liked the old system because you would have something to look forward to every week until the new patch came out. now you have all of the content thrown at you at once and once you finish it, no more. No live events to keep you entertained, no more missions, you have all of the items, Christmas items are done too...well um...what else can i do? For a person that has basically every quest item in the game, you have an idea on where I am coming from...I finished the winter content in about 2 days (not straight, few hours each day) and I finished the 12.1 content (missions and most items) in 4 days (again, few hours each day). I even got the archive effect item and some items I didn't have from 11.3 and still summed up to a week

The old way in my opinion was better and I still hold to the fact that I could be leaving soon...I am not the only one either because I am seeing a lot of vets quit this game...look at how many people just quit in the last week or 2.

I'm inclined to agree, sir. 

3 Quest Missions - Live Events = 6 LONG WEEKS IS LONG!

Outlaw wrote:

I really liked the old system because you would have something to look forward to every week until the new patch came out. now you have all of the content thrown at you at once and once you finish it, no more. No live events to keep you entertained, no more missions, you have all of the items, Christmas items are done too...well um...what else can i do? For a person that has basically every quest item in the game, you have an idea on where I am coming from...I finished the winter content in about 2 days (not straight, few hours each day) and I finished the 12.1 content (missions and most items) in 4 days (again, few hours each day). I even got the archive effect item and some items I didn't have from 11.3 and still summed up to a week

The old way in my opinion was better and I still hold to the fact that I could be leaving soon...I am not the only one either because I am seeing a lot of vets quit this game...look at how many people just quit in the last week or 2.

Yeah and you know as a fellow Vectorite a lot of us aren't regular DN1 posters...or stick only to the Vec boards.  We just happen to be vocal about it.  I could cut and paste some choice quotes echoing this opinion from a couple of faction forum posts....but I won't of course for privacy reasons.  Not to mention those that just up and quit or let their subs go and don't make noises about it.

Rarebit wrote:

Fractor wrote:

I have just started the 12.1 collector missions and I'm at the point where I need 10 function fragments to get the 12.1.3 mission ticket. I personally think this is too much and it's a huge leap in difficulty from collecting just 1 Override Trace for the 12.1.2 mission ticket.

Just to give you a few numbers for your argument:

The Override Trace drops at a 20% rate from level 42 NPCs, who appear mostly one at a time in a single neighborhood.

The Function Fragments drop at a 50% rate from level 53 NPCs, who appear mostly in pairs in a single neighborhood.

Getting the Trace is meant to be a bit of a challenge for a level 40 character (have to find and kill ~5 groups). Getting the Function Fragments is meant to be a bit more of a challenge, and for a level 50 character (have to find and kill ~10 groups).

So, like, put it at 100% drop rate and make it take 5 instead of one?

I had to kill about 20 for each trace I got.

It's similar with the function fragments. It's been my experience that the greatest lament of any player is fighting forever to get an item and the probability just seems to go against them every time. It is fun to get things, and have a simple, tangible count of them. It is not fun to kill things for an hour with nothing to show for it, even though after five, the drop rate dictates that you should have something.

In any case, no, I don't believe that forcing the story into a grind/quest mode is saving it, or making it more interesting. The one thing I actually like more about MxO than any other current market MMO is the options you have while running a mission. You don't need to go see Fargo the Dwarf in the mines  - you push the button on your cell phone and talk to Tyndall and she sends you somewhere nearby. As it should be.

"Quests," as applied to chapters, are not only a bastardization of the Matrix Online, but are a bastardization of the modern day. How often do you really think that someone would rather meet in person, have their identity known or recorded as opposed to speaking over the phone, presumably anonymously with the background of intense hacking that surrounds this universe?

Not only that, but the structure, as mentioned before and before - it is severly limiting to lower level players. In a game where the story is considered to be one of the last redeeming qualities (given that events were thrown out the window with virtually no explanation - simply that Rarebit is too tired or lazy to do them and thinks that we could do better with a simple 5 minute cinematic where no one knows who face number one is) new players are excluded rather than included, limiting the marketing even further than the game has already been limited.

The coffin was nailed shut by the new approach. Unless you flip the hammer and pull it out before it's too deep in, MxO will die. And I'll certainly be gone before the servers shut down.

Post edited. Reason Code 001: Bypassing language filter.

My opinion has greatly changed in regards to the new approach as I've watched friend after friend unsub to a point now where even I wonder what the point of jacking in between updates is.

Sure, I can go farm every item I neglected over time but what after that?

I think that while it's cool to grind for new items every update, I think the story should be much more accessible to everyone.  With that in mind, I personally think that the story missions should return to their old format (weekly criticals).  In the meantime, release the org item collectors available for those of us who like to farm.  In short, provide the crits and the option of farming something.

That gives everyone the option to participate in the story, it provides a weekly update of progression and makes the missions easy to archive later.

Meanwhile we can farm ourselves into oblivion for the new items.

Win.  Win.  IMO.

All I know is I didn't sign up for WoW but set in a modern setting but with 0.00000001% of that game's playerbase.

Here's another analogy.  Let's say you live in a small town or city, and on one street you have an old record store...the kind where you can lose yourself in...with all kinds of esoteric titles, rare imports, promos, cool used CD's, records, etc.  You go and you can spend hours there discovering amazing music.

One day you show up and there's a giant WalMart on the city block where your record store used to be.  Now, you're stuck with their CD section, and you only have access to the Top 20 Billboard pop titles in their CD bins.  nothing more.  Well, those titles appeal to a lot of people...after all that's how they got to the top of the charts....but for those of us who want more of a selection than the latest Soulja Boy or Carrie Underwood....we're pretty much out of luck. 

It's a shame...this is a niche game that should run with it's unique appeal...instead of trying to be like every other generic MMO on the planet.  Some people like it...as evidenced on these boards, but it might just be that that's what their used to and feel comfort in the same old same old.

That's the best analogy I've ever heard.

To be quite honest and frank, this game will never be WoW.  It will never have 10 million subscriptions.  I appreciate the effort taken to ensure new players get to experience the story at their own pace...  but I really think the focus needs to be on the diehard Matrix fans, and those of us who have stuck with the game for four years or more.  We are the meat and potatoes of this game.  And to be honest, this new approach is only chasing those old diehards away.

The -only- reason I continue to stay with MxO is because of my faction, and the stories and events we put on to entertain ourselves.  There is no longer a reason to jack in for more than a few days a month, honestly.

The one thing us oldtimers really enjoyed was taken from us.  Yes, grinds and static content appeal to most gamers.  However, most gamers are not playing this game.

Fen wrote:

That's the best analogy I've ever heard.

To be quite honest and frank, this game will never be WoW.  It will never have 10 million subscriptions.  I appreciate the effort taken to ensure new players get to experience the story at their own pace...  but I really think the focus needs to be on the diehard Matrix fans, and those of us who have stuck with the game for four years or more.  We are the meat and potatoes of this game.  And to be honest, this new approach is only chasing those old diehards away.

The -only- reason I continue to stay with MxO is because of my faction, and the stories and events we put on to entertain ourselves.  There is no longer a reason to jack in for more than a few days a month, honestly.

The one thing us oldtimers really enjoyed was taken from us.  Yes, grinds and static content appeal to most gamers.  However, most gamers are not playing this game.

EPN Liaison Fenshire speaks the Truth, MxO was suppose to be about interacting with the Matrix characters via Live Events and by a story line influenced by the players. Both of which do not happen with this new format. What made MxO different and unique from other MMOs is gone, its now just like everything else which I guess makes some people happy, but I liked the uniqueness of MxO

I think the new approach needs more Live Events... and cow bell too. I never gave so much for the old Crits I was more about the live events and reading about the ones other people had had on the two other servers, it was like a comic... I guess I'll have to get back to my comics now... hm, guess what happened to Magneto, Gambit, Wolverine, Storm and the rest of the gang in those 3 years?

You guys are so ungrateful, if he makes it easier to farm things you know your just going to fly through it too quickly and then your going to complain about how little content there is and about how there's no events - it's a double edged sword you can't complain about one and then other sheesh.

Ungrateful players, keep doing what your doing rarebit, i like the content at this level because i'm a drooling idiot whose parents are related.

~Darminian

Outlaw wrote:

now you have all of the content thrown at you at once and once you finish it, no more. No live events to keep you entertained, no more missions, you have all of the items,

this basically summed up how i feel and where i'm coming from.  I can handle the new style of missions and think it's exciting to run around megacity collecting things, but without any sort of live event there's no reason to play this game until the next set of missions/items comes out.  You can only PvP/duel/stand around talking for so long after you have all the items in the game.  If we had live events to look forward to every other week i bet there would be a significant drop in all of these Farewell! threads

I prefered the old crits for being longer with more content inside.

I prefer the new crits for sending us around MegaCity into districts people usuall don't go in.

The grind isn't necessarily a bad thing, the level restriction does hurt, though.

I prefer the new approach to find out new stuff by myself over having everything handed to me on a platter (Pandoras Box thinking).

I prefer LEs, even though I don't really like the LE threads (the arguments were fun, true BUT ->, which reveal ALL things said and done without thinking about the consequence (even "secret" meetings).

The amount of time spent grinding seems both appropriate and bearable in the 12.1 mission series. I can't say that about 11.3... but live and learn, eh?

To be honest, the only real problem I have is the fact that only high-levels can participate in the content. Removing the level restrictions from the tickets seems like it would solve that problem completely (especially given that you can't use the collector gear until you get up to the necessary level, if restricting the use of the gear is really the point here...). Why not make it available to every player, regardless of level?

As far as I've been able to gather, the format was changed because the development team believed (perhaps mistakenly) that most players just ran the criticals in five minutes and probably ignored the content completely. Maybe true for some folks. I'm not going to try arguing this one way or another - but if you're going to produce something, why not make it available to all of those poor newbies that come walking out of the Uriah hardline? Most of us don't care about level as far as RP is concerned. The only thing it matters for is PvP. And if folks want to PvP, they'll be willing to grind. It's asking a lot to make them grind all the way to 50 just so they can find out more about the Oligarchs.

Darkhawk wrote:

... wants players to read his story - then why the ridiculous level/Rep requirements? Not everyone has a lvl 30/20rep to 40/40rep to 50/60rep. Vetran players do - but if I was a new player - I would say, F' this!

Bingo.  Now just combine this with Fen's comments and you have a lot of the problem displayed right here.

Supposedly the changes were made so that the story was more accessible and easier to follow... yet new players, or old players who had multi org alts, are now being excluded from the story altogether.  The veteran players who can follow the story because they have enough XP/rep are finding that the level and quality of story content (not necessarily the quality of story itself) just isn't there anymore.

What does this leave us?

1. New players leaving once they see how much of a grind it is to even get into the game such as it is
   
2. Vets leaving because the key content they used to enjoy just isn't there anymore (and it hasn't been replaced by something of equal content or interest)
3. Players only sticking around because MxO is still online and a good portion of their friends haven't quit yet
   

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Cadsuane wrote:

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Of course, but this isn't about levelling, getting rewards, getting items/equipment, etc.  This is about the core storyline; something that used to define MxO.  Outside of once in a blue moon LEs and the not-so-monthly monthly org meetings, there is no real way to take part in the story right now if you can't do the critical quests.

One could certainly say that we now have rewards/equipment, etc. to reward those interested in grinding for it, so that area is squared off.. but the way the content has shifted almost entirely over to these farm/grind jobs with level restrictions has alienated a lot of MxO's core playerbase.  There is room for both, and it wouldn't take a ton of work to strike a balance most players would be happy with.

Shinryu wrote:

Cadsuane wrote:

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Of course, but this isn't about levelling, getting rewards, getting items/equipment, etc.  This is about the core storyline; something that used to define MxO.  Outside of once in a blue moon LEs and the not-so-monthly monthly org meetings, there is no real way to take part in the story right now if you can't do the critical quests.

One could certainly say that we now have rewards/equipment, etc. to reward those interested in grinding for it, so that area is squared off.. but the way the content has shifted almost entirely over to these farm/grind jobs with level restrictions has alienated a lot of MxO's core playerbase.  There is room for both, and it wouldn't take a ton of work to strike a balance most players would be happy with.

Why are you even responding to someone who is clearly just mocking / insulting all of us for no reason other than to mock and insult? 

Villemar_MxO wrote:

Shinryu wrote:

Cadsuane wrote:

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Of course, but this isn't about levelling, getting rewards, getting items/equipment, etc.  This is about the core storyline; something that used to define MxO.  Outside of once in a blue moon LEs and the not-so-monthly monthly org meetings, there is no real way to take part in the story right now if you can't do the critical quests.

One could certainly say that we now have rewards/equipment, etc. to reward those interested in grinding for it, so that area is squared off.. but the way the content has shifted almost entirely over to these farm/grind jobs with level restrictions has alienated a lot of MxO's core playerbase.  There is room for both, and it wouldn't take a ton of work to strike a balance most players would be happy with.

Why are you even responding to someone who is clearly just mocking / insulting all of us for no reason other than to mock and insult? 

That was not my intention at all.  I happen to agree with much of what is expressed, Shinryu's quoted post being a good example.  My post was more of a response to the last paragraph of Darkhawk's post which I rather disagree with.

Cadsuane wrote:

Villemar_MxO wrote:

Shinryu wrote:

Cadsuane wrote:

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Of course, but this isn't about levelling, getting rewards, getting items/equipment, etc.  This is about the core storyline; something that used to define MxO.  Outside of once in a blue moon LEs and the not-so-monthly monthly org meetings, there is no real way to take part in the story right now if you can't do the critical quests.

One could certainly say that we now have rewards/equipment, etc. to reward those interested in grinding for it, so that area is squared off.. but the way the content has shifted almost entirely over to these farm/grind jobs with level restrictions has alienated a lot of MxO's core playerbase.  There is room for both, and it wouldn't take a ton of work to strike a balance most players would be happy with.

Why are you even responding to someone who is clearly just mocking / insulting all of us for no reason other than to mock and insult? 

That was not my intention at all.  I happen to agree with much of what is expressed, Shinryu's quoted post being a good example.  My post was more of a response to the last paragraph of Darkhawk's post which I rather disagree with.

Allright, I just read it as counterproductive since we all comprehend the fact that there is a risk/reward system in all games.  What about his post do you disagree with?

Villemar_MxO wrote:

What about his post do you disagree with?

Darkhawk wrote:

If Rarebit's ideal intention was to force ppl to lvl up to being able to do the chapters and stuff - that was a complete asinine idea. Never force players to do such things because they won't. We do what we want, when we desire to to so and have the time. And in this case - not everyone has the time, a high lvl alt, or the patience for this "New System".

Cadsuane wrote:

It is not ridiculous to expect players of an MMORPG to level their characters or to work for rewards. 

Hopefully this will make it clear to you.  

The best resolution, imo, is to separate the story from the quests:

• Bring back the 5 critical missions with reputation requirement only.
• Provide collectors for rewards with 3 separate mission sets that are relative to the storyline but not detrimental if missed.  Maybe something like a juicy tidbit for those who choose to run them.
• Limit the rewards to an org reward and one set of secondary rewards.  There is no need for 100 reward items per subchapter.
• Initiate a Reward's reward at the end of each chapter.  By that I mean something you can trade all 3 subchapter org items for a special item (plus your others back like the PB4 Prison Mastery trade system).

Problem solved!  No more story!