Bring Back the Lith Days.

Darminian wrote:

Don't forget the time consuming unrewarding beast that is the cinematic.

~Darminian

Get LESIG to make the cinematics.  Not like the story's canon anymore.  Either that, or just do away with them again.

I had this huge post written up that I've decided to scrap.  Many have already hit the points I wanted to make, so I'll stress just these points.  I've been playing this game since February.  I miss the dynamic feel of the old system.  Was it dynamic?  No, it was totally scripted, but having interaction with the "changing world," of MxO sure made it feel that way.  The thing I hear about regarding the old Lith days the most was the random encounters with the story characters.  That is what I honestly expected when I started this game, but found out that the only way to interact with them was through LE's that I could rarely attend due to work. 

Now, here's this potential to have so much good.  Honestly, I'd look past a lot of things if story characters popped up randomly (and often) in the simulation.  I don't think that they always have to be ready with new tantalizing information regarding the storyline in order for it to happen.  I appreciate the Ghost event, but is that the only time you're planning to bring these guys around, Rare?  Just when we're totally missing something that you want to clarify?

Is it possible to maybe spend less time on new items and more time on having one of the story characters pop in and just shoot the breeze?  Hell, maybe get a "random call from Tyndall" or something.  I don't know, but something more than just storyline clarification.

I really hoped that the New Approach would bring this kind of intimate interaction on a regular basis.

Darm I for one appreciate your points and understand what you're saying 100% but please keep in mind the original "New Approach" thread got locked for devolving into dev bashing.  I hope that doesn't happen to this thread.

Fen wrote:

Darminian wrote:

Don't forget the time consuming unrewarding beast that is the cinematic.

~Darminian

Get LESIG to make the cinematics.

But what if those in LESIG don't have any video editing skills?

Stop hanging that albatross around his neck. In time, as he gets better ideas and more practice making them, the 'cinematics' will either become less time-comsuming or more in-depth and enjoyable.

I don't care if the LE's are announced or not. I don't care if they are once a week or twice a day. I don't care if they are big or small.

I DO care if the LE's are story-driven. I hate it when an LE character just shows up to say "Sup?", have a duel or two, and call that an LE. I DO care that when a player asks a serious question directed at an LE character, they get SOME sort of response (and yes, I know how hard this is to do when you have several people there). I DO care that the dev time devoted to LE's be equal to or greater than anything else in the game. It's the QUESTION that drives us. Not the pants or the glasses or the pink gi's.

LE's have to have substance, style, and stature. Otherwise, you start having events where only a few of the same people will show up for.

Oh wait--

odj wrote:

Fen wrote:

Darminian wrote:

Don't forget the time consuming unrewarding beast that is the cinematic.

~Darminian

Get LESIG to make the cinematics.

But what if those in LESIG don't have any video editing skills?

Then we put you in LESIG.

deffdog wrote:

mr-grimm wrote:

perhaps the devs could implement something like swg's storyteller items, which is a myriad of npcs, animals, vehicles, stages, etc that players over there can use to set-up live events.

Thats exactly what we need.

The Storyteller system was introduced slowly and expanded to give players greater functionality and ability to run our own in-game events when Pex (the dev who ran the events) left the development team for a promotion.

Having used it and taken part in several events that were run by players using the system, I can say that it not only works, but works well.  Players buy Storyteller tokens from vendors - as mentioned, these tokens can provide NPCs, props, vehicles, stages - pretty much anything anyone needs to set up a decent event.  The added bonus is that the Storyteller system is available to all players, not just a select few, so there is no politicking, drama, or other stuff associated...and, since Pex's departure, players no longer have to submit a proposal and hope it gets approved (don't get me wrong, Pex events were a lot of fun and I can recall some pretty fun times while he was still around).  Since Pex's departure, however, events have, in my opinion (when I'm able to attend), become more fun because they are player-driven and players have greater creative control.

Here's an example of one of my screens from SWG's storyteller system and what it is possible to do with it (though this example is quite limited in showing what the system is actually capable of).  It was a Storyteller set-up that I happened to run across quite by accident:

(and yes, those droidekas in the background were rolling around the place)

Since the game engines for MxO and SWG are different, though, the real question becomes this:  how difficult and time-consuming is it to add such a system to MxO?  There's a smaller dev team here, and the question really becomes one of resources...and the willingness to implement such a system.  Personally, I'd love to see a system like this implemented here, so long as, like SWG's system, it is available to all players and not just a select few.

I think some sort of tool would be very useful for the RP side of things. And we know they exist because Liaisons had some sort of tool to control NPC spawns.

But however I can see Unlimits rampaging Mara...

Hyperviolent wrote:

If you do not, you will again be talking to a small circle of people that for some reason still stayed jacked in after having done the content.

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

Rarebit wrote:

Hyperviolent wrote:

If you do not, you will again be talking to a small circle of people that for some reason still stayed jacked in after having done the content.

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

OH SNAP.

Rarebit wrote:

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

But what if you have everything you can get in-game, what are you meant to do then use it as a 3D chat room? There are free ones out there you know...

Darminian wrote:

if things were more spontaneous and constantly happening people would jack in more often and try to be more aware of what's happening.

I'm not so sure about that. We just finished up several years of daily events--which still may not qualify as "constantly happening" for some people, I guess, but it was pretty constant from my point of view--and while people would come along and enjoy them for the attention and action or whatever, that doesn't really seem to have inspired those people to go out and follow along with the rest of the story.

In the last round of org meetings, people were very aware of things that had happened in the cinematic--Veil killing Shimada, the Merv's android, Wright being a menace, Ghost looking for the program--and to a certain extent aware of things that had happened in gameplay--Wright keeling over dead and a mysterious golden form appearing; without those things having been told through cinematics and reward-driven gameplay, I very much doubt that awareness would have run nearly that high--say, under the previous scheme of weekly generic reward missions and daily events. Word would probably have gotten around about Veil killing Shimada, but it wouldn't have been as clear to people, and the other things probably only a very few people would have been on top of.

Procurator wrote:

Ah-hah! I see the flaw in your calculations. It wasn't one or two dozen players you were entertaining and putting in the effort for; it was one or two dozen, plus however many people read the resulting threads in the Live Events forum. I'd wager that's a lot of people.

I think it's necessary to make the event threads available, but I'm under no illusion that a great number of our players keep up with them. Sometimes even in the few replies they garner, it's clear that much of the dialogue in them was missed, or not interpreted clearly. It *is* pretty tough to read through and make sense of chat dialogues.

Rarebit wrote:

Darminian wrote:

if things were more spontaneous and constantly happening people would jack in more often and try to be more aware of what's happening.

I'm not so sure about that. We just finished up several years of daily events--which still may not qualify as "constantly happening" for some people, I guess, but it was pretty constant from my point of view--and while people would come along and enjoy them for the attention and action or whatever, that doesn't really seem to have inspired those people to go out and follow along with the rest of the story.

In the last round of org meetings, people were very aware of things that had happened in the cinematic--Veil killing Shimada, the Merv's android, Wright being a menace, Ghost looking for the program--and to a certain extent aware of things that had happened in gameplay--Wright keeling over dead and a mysterious golden form appearing; without those things having been told through cinematics and reward-driven gameplay, I very much doubt that awareness would have run nearly that high--say, under the previous scheme of weekly generic reward missions and daily events. Word would probably have gotten around about Veil killing Shimada, but it wouldn't have been as clear to people, and the other things probably only a very few people would have been on top of.

Perhaps that says more about the quality of the events, not the quantity?

Garu wrote:

 Remember the old event banners?  Great turnouts.

Those were a different kind of event with a different type of staff on the project--many devs working for weeks/months to generate the one-time event content, and then multiple devs/GMs logged in across all servers at once. That isn't possible anymore, and in most cases, I think if I tried a dramatic or action-oriented event that was widely broadcast, it would encounter severe lag/spam problems.

This isn't to say that I may not try some sort of event at some point where there is action and widespread pre-announcements, but it is far from a simple matter for me to pull off.

Why should we have to accept that the game is what it is and will never be anything better? Is that really what it has come to? If so, I have lost all hope for the game and its future.

Mathalos wrote:

Why should we have to accept that the game is what it is and will never be anything better? Is that really what it has come to? If so, I have lost all hope for the game and its future.

Rarebit wrote:

Hyperviolent wrote:

If you do not, you will again be talking to a small circle of people that for some reason still stayed jacked in after having done the content.

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

Do you think that'll fall into the same pattern of the same people showing up to the events?

Rarebit wrote:

Hyperviolent wrote:

If you do not, you will again be talking to a small circle of people that for some reason still stayed jacked in after having done the content.

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

Sorry, I was not trying to disregard the quality of what we already have, you know that. I was talking about it on a greater scale, and for people that have seen it all and been everywhere.

Hyperviolent wrote:

Rarebit wrote:

Hyperviolent wrote:

If you do not, you will again be talking to a small circle of people that for some reason still stayed jacked in after having done the content.

You mean people who actually hang out in the game because they're able to enjoy it for what it is? That's the idea.

Sorry, I was not trying to disregard the quality of what we already have, you know that. I was talking about it on a greater scale, and for people that have seen it all and been everywhere.

   And the only reason that these people have seen it all and been everywhere is because they're convinced that, when something new comes out, it must be run through within 1-3 days.  I've been playing since beta and I'm nowhere near doing everything.  I've never even been to level worthle- I mean, level 50.

Fact is, there are a lot of good ideas here, many of which are being brought forward by some of the most dedicated players, and fans, MxO is likely to ever see.  Ideas that aren't just "do things the old way" or "do things the way 'Lith did them" but ideas that involve thought, care and compromise on both the dev side and player side of the equation.

Hopefully these suggestions and ideas don't fall on deaf ears.

Thinking about the new scheme of things....I should have posted this back when this was first announced, I know.  But maybe it feels more appropos now.

Many of the people on this thread have been mourning the loss of live events.  Many say without them, their continued participation in the game and community means nothing.  Given this, one can only wonder, what led our beloved, customer-loving devs to change them?  Maybe they were smoking crack.  Maybe they were seeking a way to free themselves from the duty of pleasing a fractious audience.  But maybe there was something else.

Rarebit reviewed records of what people actually do in the game.  They have stats on stuff like this; even during the Lith era, when Walrus could say about what percentage of the player population used what percentage of their inventory (this helped persuade them to double the inventory to what it is now).  Maybe they have databases of everything everyone does.  Maybe they have sentinels watching.  I have no idea.  But I do know that they can look and see what people actually do.  And of all the people playing MXO, not a huge percentage of them participate in live events.  In my clan, few people do, though many do other things.  We have school.  We have kids.  We have parents to take care of.  We have jobs.  And getting in at a convenient Pacific time frame seldom works for us.  So the logistics of player attendance in live events means in our case (and many others, judging from the noteworthy but quite un-overwhelming number of people I have seen for the few I have attended) mean that relatively few people attend them. 

On the other have, stuff like Pandora’s Boxes, the Valkyrie mishes, and the Danielle Wright mishes are superior for more people in many respects:

1. They are vastly more accessible.
2. They yield items which are generally useful, and be done at one’s own convenience in many cases.    And they can be done at a time when one can field a team.
3. Related to this is the fact that they more consistently yield good loot, and with zero opportunity for disputes, as they have been about some live events prizes.
4. They can be done as often as desired.
5. They can be used for leveling pals.
6. Some, like PB4s, even are kind of social events, to which one goes to join friends.  Most are predictable enough to allow them to become loci for socializing and chatting.  Thus the players are always at the center.  With live events, we are always playing catch-up or trying to read Gray’s or the Merovingian’s mind. 

This cannot be said at all for live events.  And when the devs looked through the records to see what most people are actually doing in the game they probably saw a vastly greater number of people doing the mishes than doing the live events. 

This being the case, it only makes sense for the devs to commit resources to what most people actually do more often.  And if you look at how much time now many people spend on the mishes and arcs, compared with how much time a much smaller portion of the population spends with live events, it’s not hard to see which is a more rewarding use of dev time for the active player community as a whole. 

We all think, and too often say, “Do what I want or I quit [MXO/school/sports/activities/girl scouts/etc.]”.  I get this from my kids on a regular basis!  But I don’t let it influence me, and I don’t think the devs should let it influence them.  I think it’s fair to say that for business reasons they do they best they can for as many as they can.

And by the way, if I can’t get a better drop rate on Lotus Blouses, I am so out of here!!

sugaree wrote:

On the other have, stuff like Pandora’s Boxes, the Valkyrie mishes, and the Danielle Wright mishes are superior for more people in many respects:

1. They are vastly more accessible.
2. They yield items which are generally useful, and be done at one’s own convenience in many cases.    And they can be done at a time when one can field a team.
3. Related to this is the fact that they more consistently yield good loot, and with zero opportunity for disputes, as they have been about some live events prizes.
4. They can be done as often as desired.
5. They can be used for leveling pals.
6. Some, like PB4s, even are kind of social events, to which one goes to join friends.  Most are predictable enough to allow them to become loci for socializing and chatting.  Thus the players are always at the center.  With live events, we are always playing catch-up or trying to read Gray’s or the Merovingian’s mind.

 

And by the way, if I can’t get a better drop rate on Lotus Blouses, I am so out of here!!

1. Only to lvl 30 and above.

2.

^^^most useful item in-game^^^

3. Last hit wins, its just as random as whoever runs to the dead body and loots it first.

4. As people have stated, re-doing the same mission over and over is not fun.

5. Yea like a lvl 10 is going to be useful when it comes to Sati's boxes. Get them back to the mission grind.

6. Since when have PB's or any other sort of grind been about social interaction? I'm sure anyone who has got the patchers headgear didnt do it to go talk to people.

Your analogy towards MxO's storyline following population being child-like does not help your position.

Arguments and noteworthy points aside, I can no longer ask myself "What happened today?" when I log in. 

odj brings up some good points.

If one thinks that "the devs" have a magic "what are players doing" calculator then they've obviously never spoken to a CSR re: item losses, only to be explained that many many many things are not logged at all.

Also, about the items that are coming out in these quests and boxes and stuff. I really can't understand why this Pacify Duration 1% or Powerless Duration 1% or 8pts resistance gas masks just aren't appealing to players as an incentive to get into the storyline. Who doesn't want an extra .1 seconds of debuffs? The course thus far has been that the few items with buffs worth farming grant: Accuracy(s), Resistance(s), and possibly the new addition of IS regen. If it continues down that path, patches will be farming for new items with slightly more accuracy, slightly more resistance, or slightly more regen. Worthwhile buffs would be risky ones, and with Rarebit's self admitted dislike for the Quicksilver gloves and Seraphim Shoes, I doubt we'll ever deviate in a direction that results in meaningful items that are themselves worthy of obtaining.

I think it's funny that the supposed goal here is to "get more people into the storyline," yet it's having the opposite effect. It's like some manga I used to read, which I haven't touched in a year almost. I know that if I ever have free time, it'll be there, and I can just get back to it and read the static chapters and that's that. That's what this game is now. We get a new page every 6 weeks, and then nothing, and then a new page every six weeks. Some may choose to keep up in progression with the releases, but there is no incentive to. Back in the day, if you didn't know what was going on in the storyline, you looked like an idiot at Live Events "what is BIP?!?" and would often miss out on oppurtunities for interaction or would do poorly relative to one's peers in an event. There was an adverse effect. Psychologically speaking loss aversion came into play, people were motivated to stay in touch with the storyline. Now, nothing. The only "motivating" factor is items that may or may not be worthwhile farming. Otherwise one can easily watch the cinematic and get a quick overview on the forums, or not even do that and come back months later and be in the same position and not feel like they've lost or gained anything.

I think the distinction here is that a lot of people who say they play for the storyline really mean that they play to interact with the storyline. In the previous system that was possible, now, not. Being spoonfed a story-glimpse every 2 months is unappealing.

Bayamos wrote:

Back in the day, if you didn't know what was going on in the storyline, you looked like an idiot at Live Events "what is BIP?!?" and would often miss out on oppurtunities for interaction or would do poorly relative to one's peers in an event. There was an adverse effect. Psychologically speaking loss aversion came into play, people were motivated to stay in touch with the storyline.

From what I could see as far as who showed up for events went, this actually had an increasingly negative effect overall; I think it turned people off from the whole thing more than it encouraged anyone outside of a very small group. It also released the phenomenon whereby Live Event attendance appeared to become a sort of radioactive curse that turned people into big jerks after too much exposure--and yes I include myself in that.

I'd love to see the org meetings "blossom" into some sort of mission across the city.. like one epic event or battle that affects the story, and not just keep it to the actual meeting point.  These would happen once a month but with the help of LESIG could be really really showy-offy!

Just a few cents..

Rarebit wrote:

Bayamos wrote:

Back in the day, if you didn't know what was going on in the storyline, you looked like an idiot at Live Events "what is BIP?!?" and would often miss out on oppurtunities for interaction or would do poorly relative to one's peers in an event. There was an adverse effect. Psychologically speaking loss aversion came into play, people were motivated to stay in touch with the storyline.

From what I could see as far as who showed up for events went, this actually had an increasingly negative effect overall; I think it turned people off from the whole thing more than it encouraged anyone outside of a very small group. It also released the phenomenon whereby Live Event attendance appeared to become a sort of radioactive curse that turned people into big jerks after too much exposure--and yes I include myself in that.

I never saw it in you, but sure saw it in some others.  And the farming groups and PB4s and sati outings were so convivial in comparison! 

Rarebit wrote:

Bayamos wrote:

Back in the day, if you didn't know what was going on in the storyline, you looked like an idiot at Live Events "what is BIP?!?" and would often miss out on oppurtunities for interaction or would do poorly relative to one's peers in an event. There was an adverse effect. Psychologically speaking loss aversion came into play, people were motivated to stay in touch with the storyline.

From what I could see as far as who showed up for events went, this actually had an increasingly negative effect overall; I think it turned people off from the whole thing more than it encouraged anyone outside of a very small group. It also released the phenomenon whereby Live Event attendance appeared to become a sort of radioactive curse that turned people into big jerks after too much exposure--and yes I include myself in that.

Well I know you love nothing more than to interact with new players that you haven't seen at Live Events before.  I understand this...it feels great when I actually run into an actual new player, I instictively try to help them out and put my best foot forward, trying to leave a good impression for our game, not to mention our org/faction/server.  I don't know though, how a new player is supposed to last until they are able to access critical content (now that its exclusionary to only upper level players) without getting bored and leaving after a month.

As far as the LE's I dunno, some people are cool and some aren't.  Some people "get it" and some people still don't after almost 4 years.   Its like a small community or classroom or workplace, where personalities are already established....You do the best with what you have and learn who you work/interact best with.  And who you don't.  The wrong thing to do IMO is let a few bad apples or a few unpleasant experiences spoil the whole batch.  I dunno I had a few great LE experiences and just tried to enjoy myself and behave knowing that they were sporadic, never trying to crash and dominate every one.  Or acting like an idiot.   

I think daily LE's are obviously and clearly unsustainable, but (effectively) zero LE's are equally unsustainable for different reasons. 

The bottom line is MxO doesn't really work as a static, non-dynamic game; the main reason I've been here all this time is for that dynamic sense.  I'm totally open to other ways to channel that dynamic, engaging feel of MxO, but if we just become another generic static grindem game then I don't see how MxO can sustain itself for much longer.

Villemar_MxO wrote:

The bottom line is MxO doesn't really work as a static, non-dynamic game; the main reason I've been here all this time is for that dynamic sense.  I'm totally open to other ways to channel that dynamic, engaging feel of MxO, but if we just become another generic static grindem game then I don't see how MxO can sustain itself for much longer.

This.

I just don't really know what to suggest to make things better. Daily LEs were too much, announcing a LE apparently scares the heck out of you because heaven forbid someone come up and say something less-than-quality to a LE character and you might have to put them on ignore even though you don't hesitate to put others on ignore PLUS omg the lag. Outside that, there's not a whole lot to be done that can be used to interact with the storyline for a large scale of players with the exception of LESIG, but that's not you and can't be considered 100% part of the storyline.

It seems to me and I know a few others that you're catering to the people who whine and complain. For the most part, the dozen or so people that showed up to events and showed constant support to you and LESIG are out of things to do in this game now. Those people who would constantly cause problems and still do, have you ever tried, despite it being out of your job description, talking to those people and figuring out why they're acting like that at a Live event or are riding your case constantly? Just calm down if you're not, talk to them, take whatever you can to help out of their angry PM. What's the worst that'll happen? It's nice to see you care, as you've shown by posting in this thread and in other threads.

This is the next "CR 2.0" that loses people just because it's a change. I'm certaintly not going to tell you what you're doing is right or wrong, because I'm just one person and represent only a portion of the game's population's beliefs. To be bluntly honest, this seems like the path of least resistance for you. You're an art guy, you do art very well in my opinon. The Cinematic you made was well beyond my expectations and I liked it. But you're cutting out the parts that were stressing you out and are to me avoiding confrontation with the problems you don't want to face, while trying to do and concentrate on the things that you seemingly like to do and do very well. You just seem scared to do anything that might step on a toe or ten, worried that you'll horribly mess something up. But you know your work and yourself better than I do, so I could very well be wrong.

I'm not trying to attack you personally, I just want to help you reflect on what you're doing. Maybe it'll help, I know a swift kick in the butt helped me.

I like the events where two orgs clashed.

Say one org was told to do one thing, and the other was told to try and stop them doing that, that way it's all about the players, which will make the end result. That's just my input.