Death Effect: Is it really needed? (PvP)

The Death Effect as we know it, is basically a debuff that is forced upon you when you die and you're suddenly 15% weaker which will gradually lower over the time of five minutes.

Games today generally try to convey the message, "Dying a lot is bad." by having something negative happen to your character every time you die. Although, MxO is actually one of the first ones I've known besides Runescape, where dying in PvP results in a negative debuff. Why is this even needed? Even in Runescape you don't get a debuff for PvPing, you just get robbed of all your stuff. What I'm trying to say is, the death effect as it is now is basically an annoyance. Why do we even need this? In PvP this is just more of an excuse than a penalty, and no one wants to just take a break every five minutes after they die, so what do they do?

They PvP with the DE, die, blame the DE or one of ten other lame excuses and then recon with a refresh DE timer. Which brings me to my next point, which is the most annoying thing about the debuff is that it does gradually reduce over time, which means when you apply your buffs/title buff immediately out the hardline, they are all reduced by 15%. Then of course you have the choice to rebuff immediately to get higher stats then, or wait with the 15% reduced stats until the DE timer is up then reapply your buffs. Hell, half of the time I forget to reapply my buffs when the timer is up.

Perhaps if you were PvP Flagged and took damage (as if you died a CQ would be rewarded to whomever) you wouldn't receive DE?

I'm not out to just ruin the entire game, I just wanted to make PvP a little less consequential (even though to normal PvPers this really doesn't phase them) and in the long run more viable and fun.

DE = good. Doesn't need a change in my eyes.

I only just found out that DE stays on your abs until refreshed (when i mean just found out i mean last week.) Maybe have some kinda message to indicate that it would be better to refresh buffs.

Fighting against a side with greater numbers when you have DE is obviously harder than without DE but in decent PvP with good numbers all round DE isn't much of an issue. I can't see the advantages to having Dracomet spending time into seeing if he can disable it whilst risking breaking something else, over leaving it in and getting over the annoyance of it.

Personally, when I'm PvPing with DE and I manage to not get killed in a new fight then I quickly refresh my title buff and everything else (Hyper, style etc...) if I have time. I'll keep doing it like that until I die again or I'm lucky enough to see the timer disappear. So yeah, it doesn't bother me, and I've not used it or heard anyone use it as an excuse not to fight, but then just because I've not heard of anyone using it doesn't mean it doesn't happen I guess

The Death Effect as we know it, is basically a debuff that is forced upon you when you die and you're suddenly 15% weaker which will gradually lower over the time of five minutes.

Games today generally try to convey the message, "Dying a lot is bad." by having something negative happen to your character every time you die. Although, MxO is actually one of the first ones I've known besides Runescape, where dying in PvP results in a negative debuff. Why is this even needed? Even in Runescape you don't get a debuff for PvPing, you just get robbed of all your stuff. What I'm trying to say is, the death effect as it is now is basically an annoyance. Why do we even need this? In PvP this is just more of an excuse than a penalty, and no one wants to just take a break every five minutes after they die, so what do they do?

They PvP with the DE, die, blame the DE or one of ten other lame excuses and then recon with a refresh DE timer. Which brings me to my next point, which is the most annoying thing about the debuff is that it does gradually reduce over time, which means when you apply your buffs/title buff immediately out the hardline, they are all reduced by 15%. Then of course you have the choice to rebuff immediately to get higher stats then, or wait with the 15% reduced stats until the DE timer is up then reapply your buffs. Hell, half of the time I forget to reapply my buffs when the timer is up.

Perhaps if you were PvP Flagged and took damage (as if you died a CQ would be rewarded to whomever) you wouldn't receive DE?

I'm not out to just ruin the entire game, I just wanted to make PvP a little less consequential (even though to normal PvPers this really doesn't phase them) and in the long run more viable and fun.

Make an NPC in the main hotspots called something like "The Nurse" and have her cure your DE for money this will help kill some of that inflation.#

SWG has a similar system in place.

But there should be consequences.  The EJP enables an operative to escape death by a very narrow margin.  It's only natural that your body/mind would encounter side effects of barely dying and Death Effect is a fair measure of illustrating that.

To be honest, I always thought it should be more severe.  I've always liked the idea of having a much greater chance of instability loss in your gear as well as the stronger debuffs to your abilities.  If I survived death, the last thing I'd want to do is jump back into the thick of it.  To me, that makes it "reallistic".

Removing Death Effect makes "death" even less relevant in the Matrix, imho.

But there should be consequences.  The EJP enables an operative to escape death by a very narrow margin.  It's only natural that your body/mind would encounter side effects of barely dying and Death Effect is a fair measure of illustrating that.

To be honest, I always thought it should be more severe.  I've always liked the idea of having a much greater chance of instability loss in your gear as well as the stronger debuffs to your abilities.  If I survived death, the last thing I'd want to do is jump back into the thick of it.  To me, that makes it "reallistic".

Removing Death Effect makes "death" even less relevant in the Matrix, imho.

Alright, you can't sit there and tell me that removing this would be any less realistic than what we've been seeing recently. I think we left the whole, "Your mind makes it real." train of realism a long time ago.

And I'm not saying get rid of it completely, I'm suggesting that in PvP encounters where usually a player dies in PvP and then comes right back out of the hard line to get into the thick of it again shouldn't really have to deal with a 15% debuff, that will stay perpetually on them because inevitably if they continue to PvP they will usually die within the 5 minute period.

Garu wrote:

But there should be consequences.  The EJP enables an operative to escape death by a very narrow margin.  It's only natural that your body/mind would encounter side effects of barely dying and Death Effect is a fair measure of illustrating that.

To be honest, I always thought it should be more severe.  I've always liked the idea of having a much greater chance of instability loss in your gear as well as the stronger debuffs to your abilities.  If I survived death, the last thing I'd want to do is jump back into the thick of it.  To me, that makes it "reallistic".

Removing Death Effect makes "death" even less relevant in the Matrix, imho.

Alright, you can't sit there and tell me that removing this would be any less realistic than what we've been seeing recently. I think we left the whole, "Your mind makes it real." train of realism a long time ago.

And I'm not saying get rid of it completely, I'm suggesting that in PvP encounters where usually a player dies in PvP and then comes right back out of the hard line to get into the thick of it again shouldn't really have to deal with a 15% debuff, that will stay perpetually on them because inevitably if they continue to PvP they will usually die within the 5 minute period.

But they really should. If you die, you need to get penalised. DE works fine the way it does. Stops people farmin cqs off certain individuals that jump in die straight away and lessens the recon, straight out mara c and kill a bunch of people. You can still kill with DE but not as effectively.

What i would like to see is some kind of looting system. Not clothes cause that would be really unfair but maybe something like taking a random amount of peoples info when you kill them.

Ballak wrote:

Garu wrote:

But there should be consequences.  The EJP enables an operative to escape death by a very narrow margin.  It's only natural that your body/mind would encounter side effects of barely dying and Death Effect is a fair measure of illustrating that.

To be honest, I always thought it should be more severe.  I've always liked the idea of having a much greater chance of instability loss in your gear as well as the stronger debuffs to your abilities.  If I survived death, the last thing I'd want to do is jump back into the thick of it.  To me, that makes it "reallistic".

Removing Death Effect makes "death" even less relevant in the Matrix, imho.

Alright, you can't sit there and tell me that removing this would be any less realistic than what we've been seeing recently. I think we left the whole, "Your mind makes it real." train of realism a long time ago.

And I'm not saying get rid of it completely, I'm suggesting that in PvP encounters where usually a player dies in PvP and then comes right back out of the hard line to get into the thick of it again shouldn't really have to deal with a 15% debuff, that will stay perpetually on them because inevitably if they continue to PvP they will usually die within the 5 minute period.

But they really should. If you die, you need to get penalised. DE works fine the way it does. Stops people farmin cqs off certain individuals that jump in die straight away and lessens the recon, straight out mara c and kill a bunch of people. You can still kill with DE but not as effectively.

What i would like to see is some kind of looting system. Not clothes cause that would be really unfair but maybe something like taking a random amount of peoples info when you kill them.

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP? There are very few games that do that. Generally the concept of Player vs. Player, is that a player fights another player until another dies, and then the victor goes on to fight another player and if you die in the process you usually have a small down-time, like the loading from in and out of the LA and then you should be right back into action no strings attached.

I also understand the point you're making with the CQs, so why not just have the same time period in between when you can get someone else's CQ just as it is now, just the lack of the 15% debuff.

If a way to remove it were implemented, I'd like to see it "stack" each time you die, compounding to the point where it would be useless for you to re-enter PvP.

That would make it both more severe s well as easier to get rid of, and add a new dynamic to Mara e-peen sessions.

If a way to remove it were implemented, I'd like to see it "stack" each time you die, compounding to the point where it would be useless for you to re-enter PvP.

That would make it both more severe s well as easier to get rid of, and add a new dynamic to Mara e-peen sessions.

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP?

Ballak wrote:

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP?

Because when you fail to survive, you should be penalized.  Otherwise, you have nothing to loose and thus, nothing to gain.

Garu wrote:

Ballak wrote:

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP?

Because when you fail to survive, you should be penalized.  Otherwise, you have nothing to loose and thus, nothing to gain.

If I die in the game I die in real life?

Ballak wrote:

Garu wrote:

Ballak wrote:

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP?

Because when you fail to survive, you should be penalized.  Otherwise, you have nothing to loose and thus, nothing to gain.

If I die in the game I die in real life?

Affirmative.

Ballak wrote:

Garu wrote:

Ballak wrote:

Why should you get penalized for dying in PvP?

Because when you fail to survive, you should be penalized.  Otherwise, you have nothing to loose and thus, nothing to gain.

If I die in the game I die in real life?

Affirmative.

Make an NPC in the main hotspots called something like "The Nurse" and have her cure your DE for money this will help kill some of that inflation.#

SWG has a similar system in place.

What i would like to see is some kind of looting system. Not clothes cause that would be really unfair but maybe something like taking a random amount of peoples info when you kill them.

Make an NPC in the main hotspots called something like "The Nurse" and have her cure your DE for money this will help kill some of that inflation.

I think if you could just pay some amount of money and clear the death effect that would be cool. Or instead of reducing your skills or what not, what about health or IS Regen/total amount.

 On the note of having loot from PvP. I'm not sure stealing someones $ would work, because then peeps could just throw all their info into a crew bank pvp with none at all and not lose it and then withdraw their money again. What if getting a CQ automatically gave you some bits, or a Red frag, like how you get an item when completing a crit.

I think if you could just pay some amount of money and clear the death effect that would be cool. Or instead of reducing your skills or what not, what about health or IS Regen/total amount.

 On the note of having loot from PvP. I'm not sure stealing someones $ would work, because then peeps could just throw all their info into a crew bank pvp with none at all and not lose it and then withdraw their money again. What if getting a CQ automatically gave you some bits, or a Red frag, like how you get an item when completing a crit.

Not only will they put money into there crew banks it would kill pvp because everyone would be jumping.

and the DE curing Npc doesnt nessecarily need to be an NPC it could be a function on the hardline.

Removing DE is not going to stop people HJing or HLing away when they're under threat.

you have nothing to loose and thus, nothing to gain.

So instead of removing DE to give less incentive for people to HJ or HL out, you would prefer a change that would provide more incentive for people to HJ or HL out? Personally I like it when PvP is thick and fast, making people wait will slow down the rate of pvp.

A faction mate wanted me to post for them since their sub is up at the moment, this is their idea: "a new death effect -15% XP each time upon death, instead of a 5 min debuff."

I'm sure I don't have to explain how that will kill PvP.

Maybe I should clarify. If by 15% penatly to xp you mean a penalty to the xp you get, then levelling on Vector will be made more difficult and I'm sure they do want new 50's. If you mean you actually lose xp, well that will kill PvP really really fast.

I think DE is not quite enough.

Maybe an EXP reduction could come in handy

Caini wrote:

I think DE is not quite enough.

Maybe an EXP reduction could come in handy

Construct level exploitan gaems

So, I don't see this happening.

I lol at people that complain about death effect, personally, it has never affected me in pvp at all.

Why just last night on Syntax I took one person out with DE, had about 200 HP left got interlocked, still had death effect and killed the noob that interlocked me. It really only lowers your chance to hit someone or dodge, not much else.

From my experince DE is a useless downgrade, perhaps you could just reduce someone's movement speed with it and thats all? idk changing the buff from 15% downgrades to everything is needed because most people just ignore death effect anyways. Also for people like me that die, come right back out of the hl, and continue to fight, it's pretty useless to someone that doesn't care.

So I am with Ballak, change it or remove it, and more cowbell pls kthxbai.

do away with it, i never noticed a difference or cared

Why not add a Hyper Jump de-buff to it?

Yasamuu wrote:

Hyper Jump

InB4DramaAndGiantHyperjumpArgumentThatWillGoOnAndOnAndOnUntilThisThreadIsLocked.

You just had to bring it up, didn't you Yas? xD

Pylat wrote:

Yasamuu wrote:

Hyper Jump

InB4DramaAndGiantHyperjumpArgumentThatWillGoOnAndOnAndOnUntilThisThreadIsLocked.

You just had to bring it up, didn't you Yas? xD

oh my, Ballak. You play Runescape? I thought you were better than that

DE is fine that way and i dont think the devs would suddenly change it.5 mins is not such a big deal and don't tell me other mmos don't do it cuz GuildWars has a similar thing and Eve Online...i quit that game cuz of the pvp penalty(you can basically lose everything you've worked hours in a row for). There's no immediate need for a change in the pvp system. How about you people brainstorm more and find topics on updates that devs would take in consideration and that are important.

as for the hyper-jump thing...

QFT

I'd like to see DE go, it's more of a hinderance than anything because you have to keep reapplying your buffs/jacking out and in again -- makes the game feel sooooo buggy >.>

Stop dying.  Then there's nothing to worry about. 

AMIRITE?

Skull101 wrote:

I lol at people that complain about death effect, personally, it has never affected me in pvp at all.

Why just last night on Syntax I took one person out with DE, had about 200 HP left got interlocked, still had death effect and killed the noob that interlocked me. It really only lowers your chance to hit someone or dodge, not much else.

From my experince DE is a useless downgrade, perhaps you could just reduce someone's movement speed with it and thats all? idk changing the buff from 15% downgrades to everything is needed because most people just ignore death effect anyways. Also for people like me that die, come right back out of the hl, and continue to fight, it's pretty useless to someone that doesn't care.

So I am with Ballak, change it or remove it, and more cowbell pls kthxbai.

I laugh at people who complain about having a 15% lower chance to hit too.  Also people who complain about having a 15% lower chance to defend, especially when they're running aikido, the entire point of which is to defend.  But - wait, I don't laugh at that at all.  I guess I just laugh at people who claim that basic mathematics doesn't actually affect them. 

There are incentives to PvP, and there are disincentives.  Obviously, DE isn't a huge disincentive or people wouldn't be doing it.  But it IS a disincentive, and it does reduce the level of PvP by what is probably a significant margin.  Instead of fighting and keeping some level of excitement for the players, DE causes the occasional player to stop fighting.  Does it sometimes cause fights to "resolve?"  Maybe.  But the bigger effect it has is to decrease the amount of action and increase the boredom level.  That's not something you want in a game.

If you want fight resolution, go to the constructs.  If you had enough of a player base you could even make a really meaningful death penalty - but I mean on the level of EVE.  If you've got a serious penalty for dying, you need enough players scattered throughout the game to make it so that you can actually find them and fight them.  With MxO, that's sorta hopeless, so dropping DE is probably the best move.

The DE from The Matrix Online Manual LINK

Death

When your body in the Matrix takes enough damage, it ceases to function. This truth is so fundamental to the code that drives the Matrix that not even the best Operators can prevent it. They have, however, developed a workaround. When your body is killed in the Matrix, it can be copied and reloaded elsewhere.

When you die in the Matrix, your consciousness is forced back into your physical body in the Loading Area, and it cannot return to the body you left behind in the Matrix - not the same body, anyway. (In fact, when you die, your Operator will erase your corpse entirely, to avoid complications.)

Upon the death of your body, you will have two options. The first is to left click the Reconstruct button and return to the Loading Area. You can then quickly return to the Matrix via any Hardline you may have access to, reappearing in a new copy of your body. The second option is to be restored by another player, if they have the correct skills to do so. Upon reentering THE MATRIX after being newly reconstructed, you will suffer a temporary penalty to your performance for a short period of time.

The thrid option that is not mention in the manual, is not to click the reconstruct button, but that dosen't change anything. You would have to wait the same time before the DE is gone.

In every MMO there is a penalty when you die, if I am correct? The question here could be (and also already suggested in this thread by others) either change the DE because it don't have the same purpose anymore, as it was intend to be today according the manual. Remove the DE from the game.

I don't believe the DE only was created for PvP, but an idea could be to have 2 DE's. One if you die in a PvP and one if you are killed by NPC's. Just an idea....what the penalty would be I have no suggestion for that yet.

I agreed on that something should be done about the DE as the purpose today might not be the same as when the game was launched.

Garu wrote:

Stop dying.  Then there's nothing to worry about.  AMIRITE?

My preferred method :)